OMG it's a tier list

[-Cynthia-]

Well, I think it's been pretty much conceded that Vika is terrible in 4-4 and 4-E. It's just that we can't use "we have to protect her!" as an argument against her, because we don't care whether she lives or dies. Really Vika vs. Bastian is Vika's Part 1 vs. Bastian's 4-5 and 4-E.

On a side note, I do believe Lethe should move up. Her Part 2 utility, limited as it may be, is probably better than whetever Pelleas does and probably some people above her as well, depending on how much we value 4-E.

Edited July 31, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Narga_Rocks]

btw there's definitely a restore staff in 1-8 too.

That's an answer to one of my questions way back, right? If so, I'm glad someone finally answered, so thank you. I couldn't find it anywhere on serenes forest but thought I had one at that time on each playthrough.

I should mention it's what I did and not part of my argument.

(20/3 Mist, 20/8 Ike A Shinon, who is also 20/9, Boyd 20/5, Nailah, Muarim were my main attackers. Heather/Rafiel for utility, Vika/Tormod were being protected).

Yeah, I understand. It's not part of why you are saying Vika is a liability here. I'm just trying to say why I didn't find her one. She never got near enemies (Well, I might have let her kill something on turn 2 out of pity, and I think she might have helped Heather kill mages in the northern chest room. Heather's ranged options leave much to be desired.).

Thing is, with your group, I'm not sure what you could do. Boyd could probably draw the sleep user if Ike uses a pure water to get more res and you buy a restore staff for rhys, but since having a support partner for Ike lets him not need healing at all, Shinon likely needs to stay with Ike, and he's obviously useless at damaging the Generals on enemy phase, and can't even ORKO swordmasters 100% since he won't double and his crossbow type weapons might not have the mt even if he did. At which point, you have Mist/Nailah/Muarim/Rafiel trying to clear the southeast and 9 reinforcements (the ones in the east under the ledge before turn 10) then going to clear the enemies in front of the chest rooms. Without any chest keys left in the convoy you just have the one received in the west chest room (I think that's the only one on the map) and Heather needs to open 4 out of 6. Still, Vika and Tormod can use one chest key to speed up the opening of chests in one room. Also, I'm not sure who you have taking the enemies in the west chest room. Possibly Vika/Tormod/Heather, but I'm not sure it would work.

I'm really starting to appreciate Mia's existence because of thinking about trying to do this without her.

There's something about this argument here that irks me. I'm not sure at all whether or not the tier list counts perfect availability or not, in which case, doesn't it show how poor Vika is by the endgame if you have to kill her to make a chapter easier? In fact, you almost make it sound like "well Vika's pretty good if you kill her because her death makes the chapter easier."

I kind of agree that it is irksome. It isn't really necessary to do, but really, if sacrificing 3 goats to the sleep staff guy could make a chapter easier, I don't see why we shouldn't give them credit for it. They do start close enough that they can get in range of the sleep staff user on turn 1, so by turn 4 he'd be out. The thing I don't know is whether he goes before all the enemies that would likely kill them before they get slept if he doesn't go first.

As for the tier list, I always thought that barring the need for tiebreakers, units stop being used once they are no longer useful. Since her last use is a sacrifice in int's strategy, I'm reluctant to just dismiss the idea completely.

oic. And where's untransformed Muarim?

Muarim is pushing Tormod into the dragon knight's range. As such, Muarim is obviously not going to be in said range. The dragon knight has one option on turn one: Tormod. Since the AI is programmed to attack when there is only one player unit/partner unit/allied unit in range no matter what, Tormod gets attacked. Dragon Knight dies.

[Lord Raven]

When does the Dracoknight even appear?

I finished the chapter as of last week btw. A LOT of moving around, I think Vika even helped me against a mage somewhere. I forget what I did, but Muarim got a good 3-4 level-ups and everyone else got to like 20/12. Except Mist who's now like 20/5.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Lord Raven

[Vykan12]

It isn't like it's a hopeless task to keep those 3 alive. Muarim's durability is actually quite good (50ish hp, 30 def) while Vika can rescue Tormod and canto to safety for the rest of the map.

[Narga_Rocks]

When does the Dracoknight even appear?

Sorry, we've been talking about 1-8 and 4-4 and I was never clear on which was which. The dracoknight (tier 1 enemy, tier 2 is dragonmaster, and I was incorrectly referring to the tier 1 enemy type as dragonknight) is from 1-8 and Tormod ORKOs it, and the dracoknight is there on turn 1 and isn't in range of any civilians and it takes Muarim shoving Tormod just to get Tormod in range of the dracoknight.

I finished the chapter as of last week btw. A LOT of moving around, I think Vika even helped me against a mage somewhere. I forget what I did, but Muarim got a good 3-4 level-ups and everyone else got to like 20/12. Except Mist who's now like 20/5.

Yeah, without enough decent units you'll get spread rather thin, causing lots of back and forth. And with the reinforcement barrage caused by missing the max bexp cutoff there will be tons of enemies to give massive experience to everyone (ugh, 17 turns on NM). Honestly if I didn't like being able to say I 10 turned it on HM and didn't like at least attempting to hit the max bexp limits I probably would've just left something alive on turn 10 to get the experience.

It isn't like it's a hopeless task to keep those 3 alive. Muarim's durability is actually quite good (50ish hp, 30 def) while Vika can rescue Tormod and canto to safety for the rest of the map.

It's not so much that Muarim's durability is bad, it's just that if you try to treat him like the tank a tiger is supposed to be he'll die.

He has 58 hp and 30 def, yes. But, he's also only got 22 speed and 12 luck and 18 res. He's doubled by almost everything that moves (most generals in this map don't move) and the average warrior does 15 x 2 damage. He's 2RKOd on average by the 45 mt and 46 mt warriors, and 5HKOd (3RKOd) by the 44 mt warrior, and it leaves him with 2 hp after 2 rounds. And they are pulling a 6 or 7 % crit rate on him (HM enemy stat topic does not include the +5 crit skill they get for being kinda reavers but not)

The halbs double for 40 mt on average, so 10 x 2, or a 3RKO. They also pull crit, only theirs is 11 or 12 (again, HM enemy stat topic lacks the +10 crit skill and assumes + 5). So if one crits then another can kill.

Swordmasters have more variance in weapons, but the most plentiful is 37 mt, so 7 x 2. Now, that might not sound so bad, but they are pulling 23 or 24 crit (again, HM enemy stat topic assumes +10 not +20). That's 23 after we take away Muarim's 12 luck. So the 35-12 crit guys are pulling a 5.29% chance of doing 42 damage, a 59.29% chance of doing 14, and 35.42% chance of doing 28 damage. The expected value of this results in 20.44 damage, so basically around the same as a halb.

Snipers throw in around 37 attack and 30-12=18 crit, so expected value should be less than swordmasters.

Oh, keep him away from sages.

So from these guys he's looking at 2 to 3 RKOd. Now, he's got 71 avo (11x2x2+12+15), and might even have a shot at a support with Vika or Tormod if he and the other was deployed in 1-E, so a C tormod should be a cinch if they are both deployed in 1-E (FF 00, so 3 turns adjacent and 1 shove gets a C with two chapter bonuses, and they probably don't get a bonus for 1-7). Even Vika wouldn't be so hard, cause an FF 01 means 4 adjacents and 1 shove does the trick with two chapter bonuses. Still, a C support adds 1 defence onto his stats but he's still looking at being 3 or 4 RKOd. He can pull 76 avo with C Vika, but enemy hit rates will be pretty good still so it doesn't help too much.

Now, I am not saying he's bad durability wise. 3 to 4 RKO if you don't get critted by ~10% crit rates means aside from warriors it is generally safe enough to let him get attacked by one enemy. Even warriors are only pulling 7% crit, but considering that's worse than Aran in 1-4 by a lot I probably shouldn't ignore it. Still, keep him away from warriors and with a support it takes 2 crits at 41 mt to kill him, so that's only 2 halbs and 1 Swordmaster out of all those enemies that can ORKO him. So as I said, as long as you are reasonably careful he isn't going to die on us. I just don't want anyone getting the idea he's a tank. Putting him up against 2 enemies without healing in between puts him at a significant risk of death. There are areas in the map where he has a low chance of death from 2 enemies, and some areas where he has no chance of death from 2 enemies. Although the sad thing is even generals pull 2 to 3 % chance of killing him. Still, saving one ashera icon out of 4 doesn't seem too costly if you really want and would protect from many of the generals being able to crit him.

Oh, if you think the DB can sacrifice the 3000 they'd get from selling fortune, he seems like a great candidate for it for this one chapter. Leaves him with just 10 capacity left, but so worth it. Really cuts down on damage from snipers and swordmasters, and keeps Warriors at 3RKO or more if Muarim has his C support, except for the 2 46 mt warriors, anyway. And it keeps all but 2 halbs at 4RKO or more. Swordmasters with 37 mt drop to 6x2 damage, or a 5RKO, and ditto 37 mt snipers. Again, with his support active.

Wow, that was probably longer than it needed to be. Oh well. In short, don't use Muarim as a tank without fortune. Possibly a speedwing will be needed as well, so the 3-9 speedwing is warming the inventory for 3-11, 3-E, and 4-1. Not too bad, if you want to take Muarim to 4-E, anyway.

Note: A speedwing turns the 46 mt warriors into 4RKOs, and the 41 mt halbs into 6RKOs. So fortune + speedwing turns him into a real live tank.

But speedwing + fortune in 4-4 seems like a fair amount of favouritism to make him able to safely encounter more than 1 enemy. Though at least fortune could be used in part 3 to protect one unit in each chapter from crits. But since so many people assume selling it in 1-4 for forging I don't think we can assume he'll get it.

edit: all that and I forgot about Vika and Tormod. Tormod and his 6 move can get out of the way with proper use of Ike + Rafiel on turn 1 and proper positioning of Ike on turn 1 and turn 2. Vika can hang back and canto Rafiel later if necessary. Only when transformed, though. Idea is, they are fine, I agree. Just disagree on the way in which they are fine.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Lord Raven]

Sorry, we've been talking about 1-8 and 4-4 and I was never clear on which was which. The dracoknight (tier 1 enemy, tier 2 is dragonmaster, and I was incorrectly referring to the tier 1 enemy type as dragonknight) is from 1-8 and Tormod ORKOs it, and the dracoknight is there on turn 1 and isn't in range of any civilians and it takes Muarim shoving Tormod just to get Tormod in range of the dracoknight.

Oh, I distinctly remember one coming from the south and I'm somehow thinking of that. Whoops.

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh, I distinctly remember one coming from the south and I'm somehow thinking of that. Whoops.

Yeah, the second one shows up at the end of turn 4 in the south, so it isn't attacking anything until turn 5 enemy phase. I think it's dumb enough to show up where Tormod can actually attack it on player phase, though. Two more show up in the east at the end of turn 7 enemy phase, but everything should've been dead before turn 7 enemy phase anyway, ending the chapter before they show up. Even if not you should have a fair number of units there because they've been going after the boss anyway. So on turn 8 those two should die as well.

[dondon151]

The non-warrior enemies do significantly less damage to Muarim, though. And do second tier classes really get third tier crit bonuses? It doesn't make sense that they would. I thought the part 4 enemy classes were just second tier classes with higher caps.

[Jaybee]

And do second tier classes really get third tier crit bonuses? It doesn't make sense that they would. I thought the part 4 enemy classes were just second tier classes with higher caps.

They do. That's why Snipers have a +20 crit...

I hate Killer Bows.

They are also considered as third tier enemies, its just that they have second tier names (A TB would be called an SM)

[Narga_Rocks]

The non-warrior enemies do significantly less damage to Muarim, though. And do second tier classes really get third tier crit bonuses? It doesn't make sense that they would. I thought the part 4 enemy classes were just second tier classes with higher caps.

I covered the non-warriors. Rather extensively, really. 10x2 for most halbs without supports, 3RKOing. 7x2 for a lot of sm and snipers, averaging 20 over timem for the swordmasters based on crit and less for snipers. I don't feel like calculating so I'll say 17. Still, either one is a 3 or 4 RKO on average. Get a little screwed with crits, and two enemies can knock Muarim from full hp to 0. Mages is bad, too, considering a speedwing won't prevent doubling (they never doubled in the first place so it won't reduce damage) and so many are 3RKOing and a few are 4RKOing. The arcfire ones might 2RKO, but I think it is just barely a 3RKO. Plus they all have significant crit rates, too.

They do. That's why Snipers have a +20 crit...

I hate Killer Bows.

Well, 15 for snipers, but yeah. 20 for swordmasters, 10 for halbs, 5 for warriors.

They are also considered as third tier enemies, its just that they have second tier names (A TB would be called an SM)

Precisely. They are third tier for exp, and for crit bonuses. Mia had over 30 luck and I still kept her away from swordmasters in 4-E-2 because of crits. Although I could've used someone with daunt, I suppose. Anyway, point is, they didn't let them be reavers, etc because then there would be masteries on all of them. It didn't stop them from pulling out the third tier crit rates and throwing that at us.

As a side-note, I think they only did this on HM. I might be remembering wrongly (4-6 months ago for my NM pt), but I really don't remember facing those monstrous crit rates on NM. I was actually quite surprised looking at the enemy crit rates when I got to part 4 HM.

Like, ah! run. ~30 crit rates on enemy Swordmasters! hide.

Anyway, I don't think they boosted it on NM, but maybe I just wasn't paying attention when I did NM.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Jaybee]

They did pull it out o nNM as well. Like 40% Crit rates on my Titania and she didn't dodge them, like, 5 times in a row.

[Lord Raven]

Twice I had to restart 4-4 because 2-3 Snipers in a row killed Boyd. :(

[Vykan12]

HM enemy stat topic does not include the +5 crit skill they get for being kinda reavers but not)

The halbs double for 40 mt on average, so 10 x 2, or a 3RKO. They also pull crit, only theirs is 11 or 12 (again, HM enemy stat topic lacks the +10 crit skill and assumes + 5). So if one crits then another can kill.

I'm pretty sure I did account for them, actually. Notice how halbs have 18ish crit while generals have 13ish. Unless they have 36 skill, I definitely factored it in. SM and sniper crit was accounted for too. Not sure about warriors though.

Oh, and try giving Muarim resolve. He'll go from getting doubled to doubling, and he'll also reach there fast due to the damage he receives from being doubled.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Vykan12

[Kaito]

Is there a reason why Leonardo is better than Ilyana?

[Zkirsche]

What's even being discussed here? All I see is stuff about Muarim's durabiltiy when he's not even being compared to anyone. >_>

Any thoughts on Ena > Bastian?

Is there a reason why Leonardo is better than Ilyana?

I believe it was considered that Leo's part 3 win was far superier to Ilyana's part 1 and 4 win, though i disagree on thier placements myself.

[Kaito]

I believe it was considered that Leo's part 3 win was far superier to Ilyana's part 1 and 4 win, though i disagree on thier placements myself.

How is it win when everyone except maybe Micaiah, Sothe, and Tauroneo want beastfoe?

Edited July 31, 2009 by Zihark

[Interceptor]

Leonardo does not necessarily require Beastfoe to be useful in Part 3, although is he very easily one of the safest possible candidates for the skill. Leo is pretty good merely owing to his PRF bow and "ability" to avoid countering with it on Enemy Phase. He is a bad unit, but if you are using him seriously he does have his bright spots.

[Zkirsche]

Leonardo does not necessarily require Beastfoe to be useful in Part 3, although is he very easily one of the safest possible candidates for the skill. Leo is pretty good merely owing to his PRF bow and "ability" to avoid countering with it on Enemy Phase. He is a bad unit, but if you are using him seriously he does have his bright spots.

Nolan possesses the same ability with a crossbow.

All Leo does is take cheap shots from behind others, which even Fiona can do. He lacks the durabiltiy to survive as a 16/1 Leo with a full def support has 26 Hp and 13 Def - not enougth to avoid being ORKO'ed by the 39 Atk tigers.

[Interceptor]

Nolan possesses the same ability with a crossbow.

Since crossbows counter, I'd say that no, he does not. Nolan can do what Leo can do only by having someone take all of his weapons away prior to Enemy Phase.

All Leo does is take cheap shots from behind others, which even Fiona can do. He lacks the durabiltiy to survive as a 16/1 Leo with a full def support has 26 Hp and 13 Def - not enougth to avoid being ORKO'ed by the 39 Atk tigers.

I reject your Fiona comparison as disingenous, as Leo's PRF bow is really good, and Fiona is really, really bad. Leo has high growths in both SKL and LCK, with Lugh having 100 innate HIT (as good or better than anything but a forge). He won't likely be missing. Also, the +5 SPD allows him to have a realistic chance to double tigers. On top of THAT, the bow has 16mt, which means in addition to being excellent with Beastfoe, it's decent just in general: he's an easy 3RKO on cats, and 2RKO on any tigers that he doubles. On top of THAT, he's a Sniper at this point, and has 25 crit with his PRF bow. Since laguz LCK stats are lol, that means usually 18-19% listed crit on everything, which you'll notice puts all cats and tigers within his power to ORKO.

With respect to Leo's durability, as I've said before, his environment will assist him if you choose to have him tank. Leo is barely OHKO'ed in your example, but once 3-6 gets going I can have him bracketed by a cat forever, and cats cannot kill him. I can put him in a thicket and he can survive a tiger. I can toss him a stat-up and he can survive anything. He can gain a few levels and survive anything. Etc. He is not even an unreasonable drain on healing resources, since he can self-heal and the laguz will eventually untransform and become impotent and unable to attack him for stretches at a time.

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm pretty sure I did account for them, actually. Notice how halbs have 18ish crit while generals have 13ish. Unless they have 36 skill, I definitely factored it in. SM and sniper crit was accounted for too. Not sure about warriors though.

You got their tier 2 bonuses, definitely. The halbs have 18ish crit, so 26 skill / 2 + 5 = 18. They should have 23 crit, or 26 / 2 + 10 = 23. SMs and Snipers were given their tier 2 bonuses as well:

30 skill / 2 + 10 = 25 crit. SMs should have 30 / 2 + 20 = 35, and Snipers should have 30/2 + 15 = 30.

They are "tier 3", and at least in HM have the crit to show for it.

Oh, and try giving Muarim resolve. He'll go from getting doubled to doubling, and he'll also reach there fast due to the damage he receives from being doubled.

Didn't think of that. Solves his being doubled problem and should let him double non-swordmasters, and with 46 mt most enemies end up rather close to death. Trouble is he still gets critblicked. Of course, it takes a rather specific "get hit by warrior, resolve doesn't activate, get critblicked" for him to be ORKOd by them, and only the 46 mt ones can do it to him. Still a 7% x hitrate chance of getting killed. Oh, and snipers are still an issue thanks to Muarim's lack of range. Resolve is stupid in this game so if he starts at say 36 hp against a 37 mt sniper and gets critted he drops to 18 with his support active. Resolve doesn't prevent doubling because Muarim never attacks back. Resolve activates once the second attack is already initiated, so while his avo goes up by 22 / 2 x 2 = 22 he's still facing the second attack. Another crit does him it. It significantly reduces his chance to die, but not by as much as speedwing + fortune would.

Basically, resolve likely makes it safe to be attacked by most combinations of 2 enemies out there, but not all combinations of 2 enemies, and danger is increased as enemies are increased prior to full healing. Fortune + speedwing means the strongest stuff out there 4HKOs him (even without a support), and with most enemy combinations he can take 4 attacks without even the slightest chance of death, and some combinations even 5 attacks won't kill him. And snipers go from 4RKO (based of expected value of damage if everything hits) on average to 9HKO. (37 mt, 3 x 37.5 mt, 39.5 mt, 37.8 on average, call it 38 - (30 + 1) = 7 damage)

Basically, snipers become a joke to him, aside from losing transform gauge.

Twice I had to restart 4-4 because 2-3 Snipers in a row killed Boyd. :(

That's like me! I already said it took me three tries, and on the first one Mordy got double-blicked (during a double from a sniper) after Mordy had already taken damage, so he died. Then on my second try Muarim got blicked by a sniper (maybe the same one?, only one of the two hits critted this time, though) after taking a bit from others.

What's even being discussed here? All I see is stuff about Muarim's durabiltiy when he's not even being compared to anyone. >_>

Sometimes tangents are more entertaining than the core discussion? It was about Vika being a liability in 4-4 (she isn't), which was extended to the entire LEA. Crazy thing is, I'm not even really saying Muarim is a liability, just saying he's not a tank.

Any thoughts on Ena > Bastian?

I approve, if it matters. Of course, I don't see much point in Bastian or Oliver, but based on the way a lot of people are looking at their potential 4-E existence I have to accept it.

I believe it was considered that Leo's part 3 win was far superier to Ilyana's part 1 and 4 win, though i disagree on thier placements myself.

I like Ilyana > Leo. But that's because I want a mage that can actually make more use of the effective damage of various magics in 4-5 by being 4RKOd by cats and borderline 2/3RKOd by tigers.

Leonardo does not necessarily require Beastfoe to be useful in Part 3, although is he very easily one of the safest possible candidates for the skill. Leo is pretty good merely owing to his PRF bow and "ability" to avoid countering with it on Enemy Phase. He is a bad unit, but if you are using him seriously he does have his bright spots.

Nolan possesses the same ability with a crossbow.

Nope:

avoid countering with it on Enemy Phase

Not avoid counters, as in what the enemy does, not on player phase, as in the only time Nolan can actually avoid counters. Avoid our unit attacking the enemy on enemy phase.

You even quoted it yourself. Moreover, you bolded it. Nolan doesn't have any 2 range only weapons. Whether he has a hand axe or tarvos or crossbow, he still gets 1 range and thus still counters on enemy phase.

All Leo does is take cheap shots from behind others, which even Fiona can do. He lacks the durabiltiy to survive as a 16/1 Leo with a full def support has 26 Hp and 13 Def - not enougth to avoid being ORKO'ed by the 39 Atk tigers.

Ah, but if you can get him attacked by a cat he can just stand there while it attacks, and then when it untransforms apparently the cat won't run away (from what int says, never tried it myself). But, considering the stupidity of the laguz AI I've seen in over a dozen plays of 1-4, I wouldn't be surprised. (Over a hundred if you include when there's only one enemy left)

As such, if you heal him he can safely attack always and the thing in front of him will never lose hp so it shouldn't run away. He's attacking other people's targets, helping them kill. Heck, if you can arrange to get that A strike cat (starts near you) to be the one attacking him all the time, he can take two attacks from it between healings with the stats you gave Leo, even 26 hp and 10 def (supportless) at 16/1 will cover it.

Fiona can't do all that. Plus she won't even hit frequrently with her sucky javelin, and will be doing way less damage than even Leo without beastfoe. Leo's special weapon has 100 hit, so hitting is really not a problem (21 skill x 2 + 13.8 lck + 100 hit = 155/156 hit, and leo's a type 2 bio so he's looking at 150 hit minimum, so it'll be 100 hit on lots). Especially if you give him the Meg support no one really wants because you are just dropping the two of them later anyway. Even a C should cover it, though maybe a B for when he's on bad and the enemy is on best. Then 16/1 Leo is getting 13.8 + 16 + supports, so he's looking at 29 mt or more and 20/1 Fiona (ha!) has 13.4 + 7 = 20.4 mt, and even with a B/C (A is impossible) support with Leo or Micaiah she's only getting to 21.4 mt, so unsupported Leo has 7 mt better than her, or more, since 29.8-21.4=8.4.

So she's hitting less frequently than he is and doing much less damage. She's barely causing 1 or 2 damage to the 20 def tigers, even. I don't see how "even Fiona can do" is a valid statement.

edit: Guess you got in first this time, holmes. (many many pages back I got in first on a Mia thing and got a similar response but with Moriorty in there, so thought this would work)

Edited July 31, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

Your post is not diminished by getting ninja'ed by mine, Moriarty, since there are points we both made that did not overlap.

I should add to the Leo thing that he's basically an epic win candidate for Wrath if he's not getting Beastfoe. Micaiah is still excellent for Wrath in 3-6, but has fewer chances to use it since she's also your best healer. Leo can equip Wrath, spend one Player Phase (take a counter with Bowgun, kill enemy, put tank in its place) or Enemy Phase (give him one enemy facing that he can survive) getting below 30% HP, and now his effective crit is 75% before laguz LCK, aka he's 90% ORKO on tigers or something silly like that.

Also I'll confirm that laguz are stupid, and untransformed ones will not usually move. The AI does not seem to grasp the concept of moving the human-form laguz back to make room for the hitters, not even laterally to another unit. This made training Volug to be sort of a pain in the ass one time when I did 3-6, because the guy I had hitting him would untransform and then basically stand there like a bump on a log until he had gauge, even when he could have moved to allow a fresh one in there. If you are doing an "edge of the swamp" tanking manauver where the laguz stack up in the water, it gets even safer, since now there are situations where the toothless laguz has nowhere to run to even if they wanted to move in the first place.

[Narga_Rocks]

Your post is not diminished by getting ninja'ed by mine, Moriarty, since there are points we both made that did not overlap.

I should add to the Leo thing that he's basically an epic win candidate for Wrath if he's not getting Beastfoe. Micaiah is still excellent for Wrath in 3-6, but has fewer chances to use it since she's also your best healer. Leo can equip Wrath, spend one Player Phase (take a counter with Bowgun, kill enemy, put tank in its place) or Enemy Phase (give him one enemy facing that he can survive) getting below 30% HP, and now his effective crit is 75% before laguz LCK, aka he's 90% ORKO on tigers or something silly like that.

That works, though to put it to use when the laguz in front of him is transformed he'd have to get healed all the time after attacking. Still though, the 3 or 4 turns when Leo's opponent is untransformed would be fun.

Also I'll confirm that laguz are stupid,

I have to disagree with you on that. I'm thinking more along the lines of: Mind. Bogglingly. Stupid.

and untransformed ones will not usually move. The AI does not seem to grasp the concept of moving the human-form laguz back to make room for the hitters, not even laterally to another unit. This made training Volug to be sort of a pain in the ass one time when I did 3-6, because the guy I had hitting him would untransform and then basically stand there like a bump on a log until he had gauge, even when he could have moved to allow a fresh one in there. If you are doing an "edge of the swamp" tanking manauver where the laguz stack up in the water, it gets even safer, since now there are situations where the toothless laguz has nowhere to run to even if they wanted to move in the first place.

My "experience" with 1-4 would agree with you. The untransformed idiots move forward, even if they can't transform. The only time they run away is if they are significantly injured and untransformed. Even when one only had like 6 hp or something it would always attack unequipped Sothe rather than move one space left to get the healing jar's effects. The moment it untranforms, then it runs, but that only happens when injured. I'm not sure how injured, though.

And for when you were talking about the boss of 1-4 moving untranformed next to Eddie, it happens, sometimes. It's actually happening all the time now when I test stuff in that chapter. Earlier though the other untransformed tiger that starts up there would be the one that moves first, the boss second, so he was always two out. I have no idea what prompts the order to change. In one position the transformed tiger actually went first and the boss third. Weird.

Even the boss in the east is equally stupid, if not more. He repeatedly moves when Nolan is 2 panels outside his range, and the idiot stayed untransformed despite having full gauge. Since he has 6 spd untransformed, Ilyana doubles and Nolan finishes it off. This is NM, because that's where I'm testing the support stuff, but I think their HM programming is equally stupid. Idiots.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

That works, though to put it to use when the laguz in front of him is transformed he'd have to get healed all the time after attacking. Still though, the 3 or 4 turns when Leo's opponent is untransformed would be fun.

I was thinking in this scenario that Leo would not be blocking a hole, because then using Wrath would require a dedicated healer. I would just have him fire from behind the front lines at fresh laguz. Leo + Wrath would be nearly as good as Leo + Beastfoe on tigers, which is pretty significant I think. Even a 68% ORKO on cats is still good enough for government work, that's 2 out of three cats dead and it's bio-immune.

I have to disagree with you on that. I'm thinking more along the lines of: Mind. Bogglingly. Stupid.

Works for me. Laguz AI is incomprehensible.

My "experience" with 1-4 would agree with you. The untransformed idiots move forward, even if they can't transform. The only time they run away is if they are significantly injured and untransformed. Even when one only had like 6 hp or something it would always attack unequipped Sothe rather than move one space left to get the healing jar's effects. The moment it untranforms, then it runs, but that only happens when injured. I'm not sure how injured, though.

And for when you were talking about the boss of 1-4 moving untranformed next to Eddie, it happens, sometimes. It's actually happening all the time now when I test stuff in that chapter. Earlier though the other untransformed tiger that starts up there would be the one that moves first, the boss second, so he was always two out. I have no idea what prompts the order to change. In one position the transformed tiger actually went first and the boss third. Weird.

Even the boss in the east is equally stupid, if not more. He repeatedly moves when Nolan is 2 panels outside his range, and the idiot stayed untransformed despite having full gauge. Since he has 6 spd untransformed, Ilyana doubles and Nolan finishes it off. This is NM, because that's where I'm testing the support stuff, but I think their HM programming is equally stupid. Idiots.

That's interesting, I didn't know that a laguz other than the boss could go first. Every time I have done it, the boss moves, but since this is a ridiculously effective strategy it doesn't result in many restarts, so apparently I've hit the lottery in all 6+ times that I'd attempted it.

[Narga_Rocks]

I was thinking in this scenario that Leo would not be blocking a hole, because then using Wrath would require a dedicated healer. I would just have him fire from behind the front lines at fresh laguz. Leo + Wrath would be nearly as good as Leo + Beastfoe on tigers, which is pretty significant I think. Even a 68% ORKO on cats is still good enough for government work, that's 2 out of three cats dead and it's bio-immune.

Should've thought of that myself. That also gets around the "what if he can't take a tiger hit" thing. Just leave lugh unequipped on turn 1, get the nice A strike cat to double him, say "thanks" and start blicking away from turn 2 on.

Works for me. Laguz AI is incomprehensible.

Glad we're in agreement then.

That's interesting, I didn't know that a laguz other than the boss could go first. Every time I have done it, the boss moves, but since this is a ridiculously effective strategy it doesn't result in many restarts, so apparently I've hit the lottery in all 6+ times that I'd attempted it.

I was always under the impression there is a set order in which the enemy activates myself. I was apparently mistaken, at least in 1-4 NM. It always seemed to work in other chapters for me in HM, though. There were times I looked at what the enemy did last enemy phase, selected the last enemy to move and went hit down repeatedly and usually that was the order in which the enemies moved. In most maps, actually, if I just assume the bosses move last, aside from reinforcements, then it usually works to select the boss, skip over the reinforcements (if it is turn 2 or beyond), and the next enemy while going down will be the first to move, then they follow that order. 1-4 is at least different in that the bosses don't move last, for whatever reason. The way enemies normally work is stupid, though. It happens to partners, too. The game goes through in order, and if the unit has nowhere to go it gets skipped, but if later in the same phase a spot opens up where it would have gone, the game doesn't go back to it even though the unit hasn't moved yet. Really annoying in 3-12 because in NM the sniper sharing the lower ledge with Tauroneo got injured and moved away but the other sniper had already "activated". On 3-12 HM somehow the sniper never got hit so I never had to change them to Halt. Not like that little bit of luck really changed much for me, but I was still happy.

Anyway, I have no idea what happened in 1-4, since I was able to get 3 enemies to move in at least 3 completely different orders.

If I remember right, here's what happened:

Based on the default set up, Edward stands just under the spot that needs to be destroyed for him to walk through. If I start the map and have Leo shove Edward and then have Micaiah and Sothe combine to destroy the wall and move Ed to the spot you talked about, the boss always moves second after the other untransformed guy.

If I position Edward one spot right of where you suggest, in an attempt to get the boss to move into that corner spot, the boss doesn't move at all and the untransformed guy and the transformed guy move in, though I forget which one moves in first.

If I use the advance screen to switch Ed and Leo from their default positions, then have Leo and Sothe attack the wall and move Micaiah in and to the right to attack the transformed guy through the wall (and still be close enough to move to attack the boss next turn), then move Edward to the spot of which you spoke, the boss moves first and goes to that corner spot.

It's weird.

I know your setup is different since you use Sothe in the south and Ilyana in the north, but whatever you do clearly has the same effect on enemy order as the third option I listed above.

I should note that the only reason I'm actually using Aran to wall in the south in my testing is because of two things:

1, I'm testing on NM so tigers only have 6 crit.

2, If he dies when I'm not actually testing anything with him I don't have to care in 1-4 or 1-5. There was one time I was testing Micaiah and someone else and I let 3 guys die in 1-4 since it didn't matter one bit.

I got Leo killed in 1-5 once and it didn't matter because I was testing one thing with him but two things with some other groups so it was going to take two plays anyway.

[-Cynthia-]

Anyway, I'm still not seeing how the BK is under Cain and Giffca, even higher(Muarim IMO, since he only has 3 chapters of useful himself but isn't as good as the BK) might be accpetable.

Cain and Giffca can only get credit for 4-E, which we usually agree is ~2 chapters. BK has 3 chapters overall, and I would say he's beating the DB a lot more cleanly than Cain and Giffca are beating the other royals and such. Nailah is comparable to him in 1-8 and that's about it. Having 3 chapters of being the best/second best unit on a struggling team > having 2ish chapters on a team filled with awesome units.