OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

Paragon is 15 capacity.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I'll also note that Zihark's durability when he joins isn't much better than Eddie's when he joins. Zihark can take a few more hits and has more dodge but if you take for example the beginning of 1-6-2 and send him left to take out the fighter, he has a good chance of being killed by the cavaliers that have ~70 hit on him.

[Narga_Rocks]

If that's the case, the only time Zihark has a win on Eddie is basically at join time up to when Eddie hits promotion. Eddie's been winning prior, then Eddie pretty much wins from part 3 onwards it seems. Caladbolg was a damn subtle add in...

But with a shield, he basically becomes Nolan with offense ;;>> While Nolan with the shield just becomes..Nolan with a free defense support.

Don't forget, though, not using Edward gives Nolan almost free use of the draco, so Nolan doesn't so much need +def which opens him up for Zihark. Still, it just means Zihark gets his precious A Earth in 3-13 where it doesn't help much and then part 4 where it makes him virtually untouchable after promotion, and nigh unhittable beforehand too. Not sure how it's going for Edward, but with a luck lead and 31 avo from Caladbolg and Nolan, he's not losing avo by huge amounts, then in 4-3/4/5 they've likely both hit tier 3 and Eddie should probably be using a forged silver, so now he is losing avo, but still only by 17 or something rather than 22. Thanks to the draco and his own affinity, though, Edward wins def by about 5. Being 3 or 4 HKOd at 17 higher listed hit means he'll probably lose durability even if Zihark is 2 or 3 HKOd by the same things at the lower hit, what with the nature of true hit. Still, though, Edward does fine in tier 3 (though he may not start tier 3 with a strength lead, but at least he takes fewer levels afterwards to hit higher levels of offence). For example, in 4-E-2, Edward needs just 20/20/11 for 32 strength. Well, he could pull it off with 16/16/11, actually, if we really wanted. 52 mt ORKOs the halbs. Also there are 5 snipers that are KOd by 51 mt (31str) and Zihark doesn't get that until 20/18, though it could be reduced a little bit with bexp in tier 2, he'd still need 20/15 or 20/16 to pull it off. Ed gets 31 str at 16/16/9 or 10. Also, Ed 3HKOs generals in 4-E-1 with a silver forge at earlier levels than Zihark, and with 52mt will actually 2HKO the thunder and wind spirits with Vague Katti even if they are on a cover tile, Zihark can't until 20/18, again with the bexp in tier 2 to cap his tier 2 str.

Anyway, I suppose Edward isn't so terrible in part 1 that he can't beat out Lucia. His part 1 is still annoying because he's awfully squishy and doesn't even have good 2 range. I suppose he does get a fair number of 3HKOds out of his support and the draco, though. Plus, there is the early chapters anyway and Lucia in 2-2 competes with Nealuchi and Mordecai and we have Leanne.

Another thing is he's got a fair luck growth, so if he can catch his luck up to myrm crit rates and keep it above them then he's got something Nolan and Aran don't have, immunity to most crits.

It really comes down to what people think are reasonable levels for Edward, and you are the only one to suggest some so far.

[grandjackal]

He's at least doubling with his range. Let's do Math. Again, level 11 Eddie, 13 Nolan, C support eachother for +3 hit.

11 str, 14 skill, 11 luck- 17 Mt, 99+3 hit

13 str, 13 skill, 9 luck - 22 Mt, 105+3 hit

The difference is only 6 hit, and Eddie's doubling.

[Interceptor]

Ed's competition is still basically Micaiah and Nolan and Aran, although Micaiah only really benefits in 1-5 and 1-9. [...] Then there's the obvious in 1-9, where being 2HKOd helps, but the 1-8 robe is far better for it.

I don't know that I'd consider this a strong reason for Micaiah, at least in terms of 1-9, since you can clear that chapter without her even being attacked (see Vykan's speedrun for an example).

[grandjackal]

What would be the point of giving her durability there anyways? To help level her up? Apparently you can fit Paragon on her, just go that way if you got problems with her level, not that she needs much to be good regardless...

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Screw the draco. Drop the seraph robe on eddie instead. He should reach level 11 and have 23 hp by chapter 1-4 which is incidentally the same chapter we get the seraph. Bexp him up then and promote him early. After 1-5 take off taurneo's resolve and pass it to eddie. Let eddie keep wrath as innate so he can use both resolve+wrath at the same time. Make sure he is also supporting nolan and have nolan take the dracoshield for lulz. If we throw eddie the killer sword zihark brought eddie should have around 90 crit on every attack not counting whatever crit resolve gives him.

That should help eddie's part 1 performance.

BTW I hate eddie.\

Edit: sorry nevermind he needs to reach level 9 instead to get 23 health. Sorry. It's lower than I previously thought.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Lancelot

[grandjackal]

Lancy, slooooooow the hell down there. Tad wasteful on Eddie due to him capping HP pretty early on. All that to basically slowplay him most of the wa? ;;>> I'd prefer the shield, comes sooner the whole deal.

Then consider the killer edge is not his alone, he wouldn't WANT Wrath anyways (well, for part 3 anyways, now that we see he has ways to not be as squishy) as Michaiah could put it to better use, and Resolve is asking waaaayyyy too much, not to mention Volug would put it to better use.

Catch your breath there, think that one through again.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Narga_Rocks]

Ed's competition is still basically Micaiah and Nolan and Aran, although Micaiah only really benefits in 1-5 and 1-9. [...] Then there's the obvious in 1-9, where being 2HKOd helps, but the 1-8 robe is far better for it.

I don't know that I'd consider this a strong reason for Micaiah, at least in terms of 1-9, since you can clear that chapter without her even being attacked (see Vykan's speedrun for an example).

1-9 alone isn't reason enough to give Micaiah the robe, I know. If you know where all the enemies come from, then Micaiah doesn't need to be able to take a hit. It also applies to later on in the game where more hp helps her not be OHKOd. While she may get doubled by a fair number of things for a while, she doesn't get doubled by all things at all times. Also, at times she may have enough speed that x1.5 lets her double, at which point resolve means super glass cannon on player phase. To get there, I suppose she could sacrifice, but another option is simply to get hit. I don't think Micaiah is a major competitor for the robe, though. I'm not sure who to give it to, though. Assuming 3 tier 1 units (+Micaiah) are raised to tier 2 before part 3, Jill is a good option for the 1-4 robe, since 1-5 is easy enough without the robe. The 1-8 robe I'm not entirely sure where to stuff it. If Aran is one of the 3, I suppose it wouldn't hurt, but if he's not then there is no point. Even if he is, by this point he's likely durable enough anyway and in part 3 he's worried about crits and can generally reach 3HKOd somewhat quickly depending on his pre-sealing level. I don't see a big reason to give it to Micaiah, but I also don't see a big reason not to.

He's at least doubling with his range. Let's do Math. Again, level 11 Eddie, 13 Nolan, C support eachother for +3 hit.

11 str, 14 skill, 11 luck- 17 Mt, 99+3 hit

13 str, 13 skill, 9 luck - 22 Mt, 105+3 hit

The difference is only 6 hit, and Eddie's doubling.

If he's doubling then he's good in places like 1-5 on a ledge. As for the rest, the fact he's comparing decently with Nolan (takes >12 def for Nolan to cause more damage) doesn't actually matter much. In 1-6, all your ranged needs can be accomplished by Tauroneo with a javelin (carrying someone if you want to prevent a KO) or Ilyana or Leo or Micaiah. Additionally, Jill has 14 AS with a hand axe and 12*2+14+70=108 hit and 20 mt. So he's doing more on anything with <14 defence and >10 spd (though she usually pulls spd or str or both on a level). Also, Zihark with a wind edge has 22*2+11+60=115hit and doubles with 23 mt. Basically, the other units will be more accurate or do more damage. Although, Taur while carrying someone only has 11*2+18+65=105 hit, so only 3 hit higher than Ed but oh so much more damage.

In 1-7, Taur goes away but Tormod shows up. Fire has 90 hit. 136 hit and 22 mt and goes against res and doubles everything with <= 16 speed. This is crazier than Tauroneo's range game. Even elfire only drops him to 131 but means 24 mt. That's still more hit than Taur without an anchor and his 127 hit.

In 1-8, Jill goes away.

In 1-E, BK shows up.

But the point isn't that his range game is worse than others. The point is that a lot of kills fed to him might rely on him attacking twice. Attacking twice means getting countered unless it's an archer. He can't just crank out a ranged weapon and kill something uncountered. Nolan can be fed kills with more hp remaining and all he has to worry about is missing, which is unlikely with an iron forge. Edward benefits from the brave sword, though. Without it, even if Edward causes more damage overall, it's still less costly to feed a kill to Nolan. The problem with his range game is that he has a good chance of missing, so even if a double with a wind edge will kill what an attack with a forged iron sword doesn't one hit, he's got a good chance of missing at least once. Of course, so does Zihark, but for a while Z has more hp/def so it isn't as costly.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Lancy, slooooooow the hell down there. Tad wasteful on Eddie due to him capping HP pretty early on. All that to basically slowplay him most of the wa? ;;>> I'd prefer the shield, comes sooner the whole deal.

Then consider the killer edge is not his alone, he wouldn't WANT Wrath anyways (well, for part 3 anyways, now that we see he has ways to not be as squishy) as Michaiah could put it to better use, and Resolve is asking waaaayyyy too much, not to mention Volug would put it to better use.

Catch your breath there, think that one through again.

100 crit in part 1. That's what I am saying.

And I agree on micaiah making better use of wrath. Just eddie is the only person with innate wrath besides nephenee so he is the only dawn brigade member who can claim resolve at the same time as wrath. If we have no intentions of using eddie past part 1 this is a possible strategy. And with him capping hp it opens him up to bexp in strength/skill/speed/defense as the major stats.

[grandjackal]

I wouldn't say Eddie is tanking, but it's not like Nolan's much better off either. At least Eddie has the option. On top of this though, he's got his crit. He might miss a coupe times, but it stands to say he could crit some times too. Indeed he would be great at shooting over ledges, especially in 1-5. Only Eddie is really doubling, he can't possibly miss, he can dodge best of your team sae perhaps Sothe and Volug, and possible crit. At the levels I posted, he can actually 1RKO mages. Boss might be a different story though, but I doubt it's by much.

[Narga_Rocks]

I just remembered, we were finally looking at Naesala and Tibarn and Elincia, and then Robo Ky derailed that.

Any objections to Elincia > Tibarn, since a few people have agreed? Any thoughts on where Naesala should go? Also, Cynthia mentioned Naesala > Ranulf. Anyone object? If not, should Ranulf move down, or should Naesala jump all the way up to immediately below Tibarn?

Also, any defenders of Lucia against the idea of Edward > Lucia?

[grandjackal]

I can agree with all that, and my lowest aim for this is Calill.

[Florete]

For Paragon: Since no one has 100% confirmed it yet, Micaiah can use Paragon in tier 1. I am 100% sure on that. Along with Sothe and Zihark, Volug too can use Paragon. Someone mentioned Tauroneo, but he can't. He's in the chapter you get it but not in the rest of part 1.

I can agree with Elincia > Tibarn > Naesala, but that's a fair number of people Naesala has to jump over. Him > Ranulf I can see (though I'd like to see more on that before just going "Okay, let's do it"), but I don't know if that means Naesala goes all the way up, Ranulf goes all the way down, or they meet somewhere in the middle.

[grandjackal]

Well I already said my piece, but your thoughts on Eddie? No one seems to disagree with me (what a change I know), but whatchya think? At least above Lucia, though I could see him in upper mid, THOUGH my lowest aim is Calill?

[_____]

Instead of asking for a 2 tier jump, maybe you should compare him to the units above him? That would make your case a lot more stomach-able. Also, giving Edward 9 levels and Nolan 4 by 1-5 seems to be a bit unreasonable, since Nolan is doing quite a bit better than Edward in 1-2 and 1-3.

[grandjackal]

Instead of asking for a 2 tier jump, maybe you should compare him to the units above him? That would make your case a lot more stomach-able. Also, giving Edward 9 levels and Nolan 4 by 1-5 seems to be a bit unreasonable, since Nolan is doing quite a bit better than Edward in 1-2 and 1-3.

You need to consider leveling speed.

As for my comparison, I'll simply say I don't see what makes Calill so special as to put her a tier above him with that considered.

[_____]

You need to consider leveling speed.

I have. It's not like Edward is underleveled or anything. Nolan should most definitely still have a decent level lead on him.

[grandjackal]

You need to consider leveling speed.

I have. It's not like Edward is underleveled or anything. Nolan should most definitely still have a decent level lead on him.

Yet, Nolan is overleveled.

[_____]

... And preforming much better than Edward for half of those chapters, thus having more exposure to enemies.

[grandjackal]

... And preforming much better than Edward for half of those chapters, thus having more exposure to enemies.

Dracoshield can actually fix this problem.

[Narga_Rocks]

I can agree with Elincia > Tibarn > Naesala, but that's a fair number of people Naesala has to jump over. Him > Ranulf I can see (though I'd like to see more on that before just going "Okay, let's do it"), but I don't know if that means Naesala goes all the way up, Ranulf goes all the way down, or they meet somewhere in the middle.

Yeah, that's what I'm not certain about with Naesala. Also, I'm not sure on Ranulf vs. Oscar. Basically, on things Oscar doesn't double, and there's a lot, Ranulf does way more damage. Also, 38hp/17def at base. So by 3-4 let's say 3 levels due to somewhat high base level, so call it 40hp, 21str, 24skl, 23spd, 20lck, 18def, 14 res to make things easier. I rounded up everything, though, so likely a couple of those things, especially hp, will be one lower. Ranulf has 55hp, 28str, 32skl, 30spd, 23lck, 26def, 20res. So yeah, before supports that's a 17 avo difference, and Oscar x Boyd or Oscar x Titania means they have almost the same avo but Oscar gets spanked in terms of concrete durability. Oscar with Shinon would mean Oscar wins avo by 3, but he really needs +mt or someone that matches his move and penalties. Also Boyd allows for more bond usage. At this point, Ranulf has 36mt, and Oscar with a steel lance forge happens to have 36mt as well. 37 with B or C Boyd. So yeah, simply put, statistically Oscar is getting stomped on. It's just gauge to worry about, and lack of 2 range. Oscar has canto, but Ranulf has no move penalties with thickets and can actually go through rivers and climb ledges.

When Oscar promotes, he's at 46hp, 25str, 26skl, 26spd, 22lck, 21 def, 19 res. I rounded lck and def down from .4, but str and res up from .8 and .6. So now Ranulf has 3-4, 3-7, 3-8, 3-10, and possibly 3-11 to build strike. It depends on Oscar's promotion. By 3-E he should have S strike, so Oscar having 40mt (or 42 with A Boyd) to Ranulf's 36 is an issue until S. Then Ranulf needs 3 levels by 4-5 to get the 32 speed required for doubling cats and hawks. If he can get it, then he's good enough there, although 43 mt with S strike and having gotten a str proc puts Ranulf at missing the ORKO on cats with 48hp and 20 def anyway. If he nabs someone like Mordy (Lethe's likely not used) or another +mt he could ORKO those. Also, he's not ORKOing hawks. Of course, since I doubt Oscar's ORKOing much in 4-4 I'm not sure it matters. If he goes with hawk, he needs level 11 in tier 3 to double cats, at which point a forged silver is ORKOing them and if he has a +mt support he does ORKO hawks. But I don't think level 11 is happening, though some bexp after capping skl and spd in tier 2 could make it doable at lower levels, but then he's not doubling anyway.

Oscar has access to killer lances, and crit forges and bond supports and forged javelins and similar things. Also, his Boyd support is with someone with similar offence and durability anyway, so there is no ability differential there, so that's a positive. They could stand next to each other with killer weapons or something, but I think Oscar has issues 3HKOing with one on some enemies. Maybe not with the Boyd support, though.

Really, this is similar to Lethe vs. Makalov except they share more time together. Oscar eventually gets better than Ranulf, except doesn't hit 34 speed and doesn't get an epic mastery. Ranulf starts out trouncing Oscar statistically but has a cat gauge to worry about. The fact that Oscar and Ranulf are doing better than Makalov and Lethe shouldn't be relevant. If Makalov got that much over Lethe, and Oscar doesn't really need much to start beating Ranulf, then I suppose Oscar > Ranulf is reasonable. Also, Jill > Oscar, so Ranulf can stand to drop at least two places.

As for Ranulf vs. Naesala, not really sure what to say. Ranulf has sucky gauge and 3HKOs stuff with no crit and no good claim to adept due to gauge issues. He can't be counted on in a clutch because of gauge, though if we really wanted he could tank 3 or 4 enemies every other turn with the reverting idea, while also attacking on player phase every other turn. It's just he can't necessarily be counted on to do that whenever we want. 55hp and 26 def is enough to generally be 4 to 9 HKOd along the way, and he'd have 98 avo before supports too so at times he might even manage to fully heal simply by standing next to Reyson when Ranulf reverts. Other times he might not get fully healed but still enough to do the next round of tanking. He could even take howl or quickclaw to at least do something sometimes if he gets attacked indirectly. To do that Oscar has to reduce his 1 range damage.

I'm sure Ranulf can be useful along the way, and since he's forced the fact he's useless 50% of the time can't really be held against him since he's not stopping another unit from being useful 100% of the time.

Then in part 4 Ranulf gets stomped on and then a couple other things that shouldn't be mentioned. Naesala has 47 mt at base. Ranulf will be lucky to have 41 mt at this point since he's not likely to level in part 3 and may or may not have S Strike. Well, he'll probably have S and about 15 wexp on the way to 80 for SS. Still, that's a huge loss, and Ranulf needs to now get 3 levels in 4-2 to have the 32 speed for doubling 28 speed cats and hawks in 4-5. Otherwise he's quite bad there. And he levels like he's 20/20/12, then 20/20/14, then 20/20/16 and needs that to reach level 29 and have 32 speed. Also, he's not likely to get SS strike until after Naesala, because Naesala cares nothing about gauge and flies. As far as durability goes, well in 4-P and 4-3 Naesala isn't dodging everything thanks to no starts, but he's still got about 20 more than Ranulf, so Tibarn's stars are canceled and in 4-5 Ranulf only gets +15 effectively. Anyway, 60hp and 26 def against 57 hp and probably 26 def means Naesala slightly wins durability but humiliates Ranulf offensively. Then when Naesala gets stars he's winning both durability and offence by a fair amount.

6 chapters is more like 3 chapters for Ranulf thanks to gauge, and he's still not the best option for tanking in those 3 chapters since Ike, Mia, winged Titania, crowned Gatrie, winged Haar are all good options for tanking, and then the hawks arrive and there are at least 7 better enemy phase options. Also, Ranulf competes with Tibarn and Elincia in his part 4 chapters, and Naesala is the best forced unit in his part 4 chapters. He may even be better than whatever you throw there, aside from some temporary exceptions like units that can wyrmslayer dragonmasters. Ranulf is likely inferior to a fair number of units that could be placed with the hawk army. Even Lucia could grab a forged silver and have 35 mt and 38 crit and double anything with 23 speed or less in 4-2 and on a fair number of enemies have better offence than Ranulf thanks to crits. Obviously getting 2HKOd by anything with 33 mt or more is a problem, but I'm just talking offence for her.

I don't see his ~3 chapters as being enough to overcome Naesala's wins in the ~4 chapters he exists. ~7 chapters vs. ~4 chapters, and Naesala is probably twice as good in his 4. So even by the availability argument I'm not seeing Ranulf > Naesala.

[_____]

Anyone could take that. Hell, if we're giving Edward the Dracoshield, let's give Nolan the Seraph Robe. Now he's even better.

[grandjackal]

Anyone could take that. Hell, if we're giving Edward the Dracoshield, let's give Nolan the Seraph Robe. Now he's even better.

See? Everyone wins!

-_- ;; I'm not trying to get him above Nolan ya know?

Giving it to Eddie pretty much gives us Nolan with better offense, while Nolan just becomes Nolan with a free defense support, of which Eddie himself can give to him pretty quickly anwyays. I could give it to Sothe and Volug, but that's like slapping a speedwing on Mia. It's just changing like 6RKO to 8RKO, we call that overkill in them boondocks there, son.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Robo Ky

[_____]

I realize that. However, Edward's level is still inflated.

Blegh, forget that Seraph Robe thing. If you're going to compare Nolan to Edward with a Dracoshield in order to check levels, give Nolan the Dracoshield, too. It's only fair.