OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

Bawww, we lost DB money, because they're so poor...

Can someone else handle this? I'm really not in the mood to explain why the Spirit Dust simply is not a good argument here.

I can dig up the numbers, because you didn't. Or were you just going by "Zihark's better part 1, so he is always better all times forever" logic, like this list always devolves to? 3-6, Eddie Nolan would have similar avoid to the reasonable support of B Nolan Zihark would have at that time, because Eddie has the luck lead. Nolan loses 8 avoid, but in exchange he has +2 Def to compound with his new Tarvos to pull off one of those things called actual durability.

Zihark then As with an Earth support to have 17 avoid lead with supports, cut in by Eddie's superior luck and Caladbolg. Nolan still has his durability lead. Eddie is now starting to become noticeably better offensively due to Str.

Numbers, please? You said you'd dig them up. Don't forget that Edward being in play doesn't even mean he'll get a Nolan support at all.

[Narga_Rocks]

Bawww, we lost DB money, because they're so poor...

I don't think you quite realize just how important 8000 gold at that point in time is. We make about 6 forges around then, and can make all of them +4 str +20 hit, I think, and can even make a few with more str like Jill's axe and more hit like Ilyana's thunder. Take away that 8000 gold and you are down about 3 forges, or like 1mt/1hit on each of them and a forge.

If that 8000 was spent in 3-E or something we could talk, but in 1-5? not so much.

Do tell. I personally recall proving the exact opposite.

I can dig up the numbers, because you didn't. Or were you just going by "Zihark's better part 1, so he is always better all times forever" logic, like this list always devolves to? 3-6, Eddie Nolan would have similar avoid to the reasonable support of B Nolan Zihark would have at that time, because Eddie has the luck lead. Nolan loses 8 avoid, but in exchange he has +2 Def to compound with his new Tarvos to pull off one of those things called actual durability.

Zihark then As with an Earth support to have 17 avoid lead with supports, cut in by Eddie's superior luck and Caladbolg. Nolan still has his durability lead. Eddie is now starting to become noticeably better offensively due to Str.

I don't think you'll find any numbers that make Edward quite as good in 3-6. 3-12 it's fine, though.

As for 3-6, she's willing to give Zihark an A Jill and a draco and stand him on a thicket, so at that point Ed can't compete since his lower level won't allow him to take a cat + tiger combo.

As for Ed and the Nolan support, with Ed in play the only reasonable substitute for Ed is Aran or Leo, since Zihark is an inferior option for Nolan in part 3. As such, you need to have:

Nolan

Ed

Aran/Leo

all fielded in order to prevent this. Assuming we aren't fielding Nolan is silly since Nolan is good and the targeted support. It's usually a good enough argument to get potential support partners on the field in PoR.

Considering it's hard enough getting Nolan + Jill + Ilyana to level 19 or so in part 1 and they all have a higher base level, I'd say that means no Jill. So, putting Aran/Leo into play to prevent the Nolan x Ed support isn't always going to happen. Neither of those two are so great that they are always going to be there. And even so, the hand axe is kinda bad at hitting stuff. I don't see why Nolan would reject 8 hit for an extra 7 avo. Maybe for an extra 2 mt, though. In part 4 he might like the extra 7 avo from Aran though, but then Aran would have to participate in part 4.

Frankly, I think Aran/Leo/Ed can all be argued to have the Nolan support since any one of them is better than his alternatives if none of them are fielded together, and none of them are likely to be fielded together.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Dat Nick]

Jackal...ever heard of "quit while you're ahead"? Yes, you're far, far behind everybody in this thread, but with the way this argument is going, that's as as ahead as you're going to get.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[grandjackal]

Oh god. Please don't tell me we're going to go through the stereotypical Eddie-hype. Please.

Personally I'm in favour of dropping Edward after 1-6 and dropping Zihark after 3-6, maybe after 3-12. Ed being slightly better than Zihark as of 3-12 doesn't change how both will lose to Mia quite handily in part 4.

Anyway, the only way Ed wins in 3-12 is if Z supports Jill instead of Volug, and even then it was a minor win. It starts growing in part 4 because Ed 3HKOs more than Z does, but it's still not impressive considering what all the GMs and royals are doing at this point. So it's not helping him move up. And the avo loss isn't insignificant if Z goes earth x earth, considering even with Caladbolg and more luck he still has one or two less speed at similar levels until Z caps speed and Z should always have a level lead, and earth x earth means Ed has to make up for 22 points. 8 from caladbolg, -2 or -4 from speed, +6 or so from natural luck lead, he's still down by 8 to 10. That is not insignificant. Even though Ed will probably have a 3 hp lead and 1 def lead if Z goes E x E, that's not going to make him equally likely to survive stuff as a unit with a 10 avo lead. Then in 4-3/4/5, Ed should pick up a silver forge otherwise he'll lose the damage lead, at which point Zihark gets his avo lead back since Ed lost 8 luck.

Oh, and while the LEA and Nailah and co. show up in late part 1, Zihark is still ORKOing with a brave sword. Ed's not.

And while Nolan benefits more from +def in 3-6, it doesn't change the fact that he needs Aran or Edward or Leo to do it. I see no reason that Zihark x Nolan is completely impossible. It may be undesirable, but so is no support for Nolan, and I'd rather Nolan x Zihark than Nolan x nothing. Besides, Zihark x Volug is part of the easy button. I don't see why it can't be part of the non-easy button, too, aside from Zihark losing his support if Volug doesn't go to 4-E and Z does. Of course, since Z will be lucky if he can 3HKO the weakest generals with a vague katti, I'd have to say neither has to go and thus neither really care in 4-E.

This is what I'm talking about. I'm not even trying to move him that high. I'm arguing him above Calill, and I have to jump through the "he's not the high tier DB" hoops, and yet I just got told that this list doesn't assume the fastforward button. As far as I'm concerned, this is how the game is played, so I'm gonna fastforward.

Numbers, please? You said you'd dig them up. Don't forget that Edward being in play doesn't even mean he'll get a Nolan support at all.

How did it come to this with raising him above Calill?

20/1 Eddie (someone is gonna bring up we're dropping him 1-5, which point I must ask why the fuck is this list not seperated into lists for each part?) has 58 avoid base. Zihark at level 5 has 59 base avoid. Zihark at best would have a B with Nolan, Narga will tell you that over and over. 30 avoid, 89 base. Eddie could easily have an A, 22 avoid, 80 avoid. Caladbolg adds on to that (I believe 6 or 8), which makes the avoid difference negligeable. He has a 1 HP lead, Zihark 2 defense negated by the fact Eddie has Light. Eddie however is giving Nolan +2 Def, which can stack to Tarvos's +5. Since it's assumed Nolan gets a Robe, he can now take 2 shots of 41 MT tigers without dying. Zihark doesn't give Nolan that durability lead, and Zihark wou;d only give +8 avoid in return, which isn't exactly enough to make me cry over it.

I see no reason Eddie shouldn't get Nolan, really. Now here's the thing...I'm not trying to argue him over Zihark, as I'm aware he also has Jill and Volug.

The things I gotta do just to put Eddie above Calill...

I don't think you quite realize just how important 8000 gold at that point in time is. We make about 6 forges around then, and can make all of them +4 str +20 hit, I think, and can even make a few with more str like Jill's axe and more hit like Ilyana's thunder. Take away that 8000 gold and you are down about 3 forges, or like 1mt/1hit on each of them and a forge.

If that 8000 was spent in 3-E or something we could talk, but in 1-5? not so much.

I don't need to forge everyone weapons when I can just fastforward. Jill is only necessary for the fast completion of 1 chapter, combat isn't involved, just her flight.

I don't think you'll find any numbers that make Edward quite as good in 3-6. 3-12 it's fine, though.

As for 3-6, she's willing to give Zihark an A Jill and a draco and stand him on a thicket, so at that point Ed can't compete since his lower level won't allow him to take a cat + tiger combo.

1. Won't argue 3-6, as then they'd at best just be comparing. However, there is the fact his support benefits Nolan far more.

2. Why the hell is Zihark getting the dracoshield? That's 6 chapters we didn't bother using it. Even then, don't you think it'd be more compounded on Jill, as she has more defense and a defense affinity. He'd have a 5 HP lead, but she'd have a 4+support defense lead.

If we're just going to wait that long to give the damn thing to Zihark, I see no reason we shouldn't hurry the hell up to give it to him. Eddie helps get there faster than Miccy does.

Now can we finally put Eddie above CALILL? Jesus, I'm not trying to get him to upper mid this time. Just above someone who actually doesn't help chapters progress faster.

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't think you quite realize just how important 8000 gold at that point in time is. We make about 6 forges around then, and can make all of them +4 str +20 hit, I think, and can even make a few with more str like Jill's axe and more hit like Ilyana's thunder. Take away that 8000 gold and you are down about 3 forges, or like 1mt/1hit on each of them and a forge.

If that 8000 was spent in 3-E or something we could talk, but in 1-5? not so much.

I don't need to forge everyone weapons when I can just fastforward. Jill is only necessary for the fast completion of 1 chapter, combat isn't involved, just her flight.

Lessee. Fast forward requires stomping on 1-4 with what we have. Ilyana getting a good forge is pretty much required, and I think so is Nolan's axe. That's 2. 1-5 there is no speed, really, so if you can remain alive without more forges I suppose it's fine. 1-6 Jill needs her magic axe for 1-6-1 otherwise she's not nearly as helpful against the pegs and this happens to be rout. 1-6-2 I suppose Jill can airdrop Taur. 1-7 is just Sothe going to Tormod and then going towards the boss. Tormod could probably just grab Ilyana's thunder if Sothe was given it in the base and passes it to Tormod after the talk. 1-8 Sothe is going to need an iron knife forge for the mages around the boss.

Okay, so that's 4 forges. Not sure if we have the money if we buy the spirit dust. Also, a forge for Aran/Ed/Leo are all helpful in speeding our way through 1-6, otherwise we are basically stuck with only Taur/Zihark/Jill/Nolan/Sothe/Ilyana to attempt to rout 1-6-1. I know I'd like more useful characters. Actually, Zihark helps out more with a forge than without, and since Ed can use it in 1-4 before letting Z have it.

I'm going with 5 forges, minimum, 2 optional. Unless I'm missing one.

2. Why the hell is Zihark getting the dracoshield? That's 6 chapters we didn't bother using it. Even then, don't you think it'd be more compounded on Jill, as she has more defense and a defense affinity. He'd have a 5 HP lead, but she'd have a 4+support defense lead.

Meh. I think I left it in the convoy and never used it. I'd prefer giving it and a robe to Jill, but that's just me. Also, Nolan isn't assumed to get a robe.

If we're just going to wait that long to give the damn thing to Zihark, I see no reason we shouldn't hurry the hell up to give it to him. Eddie helps get there faster than Miccy does.

Just bringing up old arguments. I think she was annoyed that we were giving it to Edward for benefiting on only a small number of enemies per map before Z shows up. Also, I think the levels and numbers work out to Z surviving a tiger + cat with a Jill support + draco + thicket whereas Edward wouldn't even with the draco and thicket. Oh well.

Now can we finally put Eddie above CALILL? Jesus, I'm not trying to get him to upper mid this time. Just above someone who actually doesn't help chapters progress faster.

I like Calill too much, sorry.

btw, does anybody but me think it's cool that Mia has an impossible speed base? Myrms cap at 20, promotion makes 21, 6 levels makes xx/7 and 27spd with a speed point each level, and Mia starts at 28. I'm not sure how many other characters start with an impossible base. I'm sure there must be another out there, but I haven't gone through enough numbers. I'm wondering if there isn't.

[grandjackal]

Lessee. Fast forward requires stomping on 1-4 with what we have. Ilyana getting a good forge is pretty much required, and I think so is Nolan's axe. That's 2. 1-5 there is no speed, really, so if you can remain alive without more forges I suppose it's fine. 1-6 Jill needs her magic axe for 1-6-1 otherwise she's not nearly as helpful against the pegs and this happens to be rout. 1-6-2 I suppose Jill can airdrop Taur. 1-7 is just Sothe going to Tormod and then going towards the boss. Tormod could probably just grab Ilyana's thunder if Sothe was given it in the base and passes it to Tormod after the talk. 1-8 Sothe is going to need an iron knife forge for the mages around the boss.

Okay, so that's 4 forges. Not sure if we have the money if we buy the spirit dust. Also, a forge for Aran/Ed/Leo are all helpful in speeding our way through 1-6, otherwise we are basically stuck with only Taur/Zihark/Jill/Nolan/Sothe/Ilyana to attempt to rout 1-6-1. I know I'd like more useful characters. Actually, Zihark helps out more with a forge than without, and since Ed can use it in 1-4 before letting Z have it.

I'm going with 5 forges, minimum, 2 optional. Unless I'm missing one.

I'm sorry, Eddie can help speed our way through 1-6 if we don't buy the spirit dust? Well I suppose all the more reason to put effort into him, if he's still helping us get through the game faster even now.

Meh. I think I left it in the convoy and never used it. I'd prefer giving it and a robe to Jill, but that's just me. Also, Nolan isn't assumed to get a robe.

Ahhh.

...Wait, I tought we all settled on Nolan getting a robe, why did this suddenly change?

Just bringing up old arguments. I think she was annoyed that we were giving it to Edward for benefiting on only a small number of enemies per map before Z shows up. Also, I think the levels and numbers work out to Z surviving a tiger + cat with a Jill support + draco + thicket whereas Edward wouldn't even with the draco and thicket. Oh well.

Seems like an awful long way to go, though Eddie helps someone do basically the same+being vanilla Zihark. Hell, this just means Eddie could take the shield and do the same.

I like Calill too much, sorry.

What about Soren? Come on, that dude has no excuse, considering hte only way I can seem to make him good in a relevent amount of time is real damn expensive.

btw, does anybody but me think it's cool that Mia has an impossible speed base? Myrms cap at 20, promotion makes 21, 6 levels makes xx/7 and 27spd with a speed point each level, and Mia starts at 28. I'm not sure how many other characters start with an impossible base. I'm sure there must be another out there, but I haven't gone through enough numbers. I'm wondering if there isn't.

Wait, seriously? Man, IS really did favor her...

The whores!

Edited October 9, 2009 by France

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm sorry, Eddie can help speed our way through 1-6 if we don't buy the spirit dust? Well I suppose all the more reason to put effort into him, if he's still helping us get through the game faster even now.

Well, for both Z and E to help in 1-6 it's two forges, but I'm pretty sure having Ed do an extra 4 damage is going to kill at least one thing one turn earlier in 1-6-1, and with all your units doing stuff in places while attempting to focus enemy phase on guys like Tauroneo and Zihark you'll probably get out faster than if you just focus stuff on Tauroneo and Zihark. Of course, if big T could stand in one spot on the map and everything would suicide by turn 4 it would be different, but he can't. But don't forget: Micaiah is helping too. In fact, she's capable of one-shotting things that probably only Tauroneo is currently one-rounding, which frees up Ed and others to go attack other stuff. But she needs levels to pull that one off.

Ahhh.

...Wait, I tought we all settled on Nolan getting a robe, why did this suddenly change?

Did I agree? (I might have, my memory kinda sucks) I probably said he's got a shot at it, but so do Micaiah, Jill, and Aran. There are only two robes, but since it is possible to raise all 4 of those at once in a single playthrough.. Of course, using Ed means either Jill or Aran gets dropped, so it's only 3 competitors for 2 robes, but still.

Just bringing up old arguments. I think she was annoyed that we were giving it to Edward for benefiting on only a small number of enemies per map before Z shows up. Also, I think the levels and numbers work out to Z surviving a tiger + cat with a Jill support + draco + thicket whereas Edward wouldn't even with the draco and thicket. Oh well.

Seems like an awful long way to go, though Eddie helps someone do basically the same+being vanilla Zihark. Hell, this just means Eddie could take the shield and do the same.

See bolded line above. I think he just misses.

What about Soren? Come on, that dude has no excuse, considering hte only way I can seem to make him good in a relevent amount of time is real damn expensive.

Sure, Soren's a doof. I'd even agree to Leo over Soren. Do you think Red Fox would be more willing to accept Ed edging out Soren at the bottom of mid, or Soren dropping to lower mid under Ed? Or do you think she'll accept neither? The problem here, though, is that I don't really see a tier gap between Calill and Soren.

Wait, seriously? Man, IS really did favor her...

The whores!

I think they are trying to make up for her support options in PoR and taking away the avo and crit from fire that they had in previous games (Rhys x Mia support would have been epic for Mia. 3 mt, 15 hit, 15 avo, 15 crit. Not so amazing for Rhys, though, I suppose. Mia would even get full mt and crit from Ilyana. Just think about Mia with wrath and vantage and 90 + skill/2 crit before special weapons. Even a +9 crit on a forge would likely have yielded 100% crit on most enemies.). But yeah, more spd than a unit could have by 20/7 if they started in tier 1 and don't have growths above 100%.

[grandjackal]

Well, for both Z and E to help in 1-6 it's two forges, but I'm pretty sure having Ed do an extra 4 damage is going to kill at least one thing one turn earlier in 1-6-1, and with all your units doing stuff in places while attempting to focus enemy phase on guys like Tauroneo and Zihark you'll probably get out faster than if you just focus stuff on Tauroneo and Zihark. Of course, if big T could stand in one spot on the map and everything would suicide by turn 4 it would be different, but he can't. But don't forget: Micaiah is helping too. In fact, she's capable of one-shotting things that probably only Tauroneo is currently one-rounding, which frees up Ed and others to go attack other stuff. But she needs levels to pull that one off.

Thus is the weird part.

Eddie getting mroe of a cut helps earlier.

Miccy getting a cut helps more later.

Thing about Eddie getting the cut is he's helping earlier, but it helps him still stay good later. She may not be OHKOing anymore, but I'm willing enough to bet whatever she chips is sure as hell enough to allow anyone to attack it to die.

Did I agree? (I might have, my memory kinda sucks) I probably said he's got a shot at it, but so do Micaiah, Jill, and Aran. There are only two robes, but since it is possible to raise all 4 of those at once in a single playthrough.. Of course, using Ed means either Jill or Aran gets dropped, so it's only 3 competitors for 2 robes, but still.

Well, pretty much I guess. On the bright side, Eddie getting a robe might cut into the HP benefits, but it does give him the option to be slowplayed to greater effect. In the least, it helps him close the level gap.

See bolded line above. I think he just misses.

Eddie? 20/1 to Z 20/5. Eddie's the one with the HP lead. Draco and A Light, Eddie's the one with the durability lead, not Zihark.

If anything, Zihark's the borderline one.

Sure, Soren's a doof. I'd even agree to Leo over Soren. Do you think Red Fox would be more willing to accept Ed edging out Soren at the bottom of mid, or Soren dropping to lower mid under Ed? Or do you think she'll accept neither? The problem here, though, is that I don't really see a tier gap between Calill and Soren.

I still don't see what makes Calill better than Eddie, because at least Eddie is important on some scope. He can help part 1 chapters go by faster. Calill can't make 2-E go faster, as it's impossible for anyone not Elincia or Hammer Haar. She can't make 3-9 go faster, as the only way to make it go faster is to crown Geoff and have him bumrush the boss. She joins the merc, the best way would be to just bench her immediately.

I have no instinct to bench Eddie as quickly as I would Calill.

[Shadow Mir]

Ugh, Edward. I just don't like him one bit. All the hype he got has tainted my view on him. Forever, most likely.

[Narga_Rocks]

Thus is the weird part.

Eddie getting mroe of a cut helps earlier.

Miccy getting a cut helps more later.

Thing about Eddie getting the cut is he's helping earlier, but it helps him still stay good later. She may not be OHKOing anymore, but I'm willing enough to bet whatever she chips is sure as hell enough to allow anyone to attack it to die.

It's not like Micaiah doesn't help early too, though. And anyway, while you don't have to make # of kills equal, I'm pretty sure a 3 to 1 split is not helping anyone but Eddie. A 3 to 2 split could possibly produce the most efficient set up, or maybe not. I'm not sure. I'd have to ask what you are doing, though.

Well, pretty much I guess. On the bright side, Eddie getting a robe might cut into the HP benefits, but it does give him the option to be slowplayed to greater effect. In the least, it helps him close the level gap.

Still don't think it's a good idea. They needed to start him with more skl/spd. See, Ed caps spd at level 18 in RD, Mia capped speed at level 18 in PoR. The difference being, on HM in PoR it is so much more reasonable to get Mia to level 20 before sealing than it is to get Ed to level 20 in RD. If Ed would just have started with 13 skill and 14 speed he'd be

a: better, since he'd be more reliable for doubling and wouldn't need to gimp Micaiah to double for more of part 1

b: He'd cap speed at level 14 and skill at level 15 and bexping would actually be possible. Also, the robe would be more worth it. As it is, he'd be lucky to hit level 18 before 1-E, meaning the only bexp he's getting is in the 3-6 base, so he can do it precisely once.

See bolded line above. I think he just misses.

Eddie? 20/1 to Z 20/5. Eddie's the one with the HP lead. Draco and A Light, Eddie's the one with the durability lead, not Zihark.

If anything, Zihark's the borderline one.

Requires Ed = level 19 by 3-6, so he can take a little bexp and hit 20 and seal, same as I'd do with Jill or Nolan. Of course, if he can hit level 20 on his own he'd save me bexp, but since I'm thinking he has issues hitting level 18, I'm not really going to consider level 20 as possible. (slightly more reasonable for him to hit 18 for 3-6 and my bexp + seal to result in 19/1 than hitting 19 and bexp + seal = 20/1. Most likely is after bexp + seal he'll be 17/1 or 18/1.)

Anyway, if Ed can hit 19/1 for 3-6, I'm pretty sure Z can hit level 6. Suggest level 20, I'm unwilling to accept less than level 6 for Z. Regardless, even a 20/1 Ed vs. a level 5 Zihark will lose the comparison if Zihark is given a Jill support, thanks to 13.5 def vs. 11.6. That 1 hp difference isn't fixing that disparity. Even if Ed supports Leo instead of Nolan, that's still 15.5 vs. 14.6. With Ed x Nolan, that's 15.5 vs. 13.6. Even if Z rounds down and Ed rounds up, that's a def lead, and 1 def is better than 1 hp for surviving multiple hits. To take a 29 mt + 39 mt hit, 31 hp means you need 19 defense. So a draco + a thicket = 18.5 def and if he rounds up he's already surviving. If he rounds down, well by level 6 or 7 it should happen most of the time. ~68% after 4 levels. Ed will need levels and probably have 33/35 hp before he can survive, so 11/21 or 12/22 is what he'll need. 18 def or 17 def. Draco makes 15.6, thicket makes 16.6. Another level makes 16.95 def. 33hp/17 def doesn't cut it. So he needs two more levels. 20/4 just to survive. That's with a +5 def above his averages from support + thicket + draco. If he gets a bit unlucky he'll even need level 20/5 instead of 20/4. 19/4 might work if 34.55 rounds up to 35, but that's not exactly going to be much over 50%. Point is, it happens sooner within 3-6 with Zihark, and Z doesn't need more levels than I think he can get in part 1 to pull it off.

I still don't see what makes Calill better than Eddie, because at least Eddie is important on some scope. He can help part 1 chapters go by faster. Calill can't make 2-E go faster, as it's impossible for anyone not Elincia or Hammer Haar. She can't make 3-9 go faster, as the only way to make it go faster is to crown Geoff and have him bumrush the boss. She joins the merc, the best way would be to just bench her immediately.

I have no instinct to bench Eddie as quickly as I would Calill.

But Calill has this burning darkness thing going on. Eddie only gets light swords. Not even heavy swords. Light swords. Mia gets fiery swords, Z/L get wooden swords (Eternal Apprentice, funniest title ever), Stefan gets a sword from heaven, and Ed's sword could be lifted by a 3 year old.

Calill is the burning ambassador from the dark abyss.

I suppose I don't have a good reason. But I have a reason. Maybe I'm undervaluing his 1-P.

[grandjackal]

It's not like Micaiah doesn't help early too, though. And anyway, while you don't have to make # of kills equal, I'm pretty sure a 3 to 1 split is not helping anyone but Eddie. A 3 to 2 split could possibly produce the most efficient set up, or maybe not. I'm not sure. I'd have to ask what you are doing, though.

Thus where my original argument comes from. Having someone doubling is more important than doing a couple more damage early on before Thani actually starts becoming common-use enough to be destroying cavs and armors left and right.

But basically I DO split it 3 to 2, the thing is that other person is Nolan. It would be logical, seeing as Eddie is the best combatant at first hand, then Nolan shows up. We now have 2 good combatants with the two chippers still doing their job as good as they would be otherwise, rather than 1 good combatant, one mediocre one and 2 chippers who are identical to the former.

This is part of the reason I see Leo in lower mid.

Still don't think it's a good idea. They needed to start him with more skl/spd. See, Ed caps spd at level 18 in RD, Mia capped speed at level 18 in PoR. The difference being, on HM in PoR it is so much more reasonable to get Mia to level 20 before sealing than it is to get Ed to level 20 in RD. If Ed would just have started with 13 skill and 14 speed he'd be

a: better, since he'd be more reliable for doubling and wouldn't need to gimp Micaiah to double for more of part 1

b: He'd cap speed at level 14 and skill at level 15 and bexping would actually be possible. Also, the robe would be more worth it. As it is, he'd be lucky to hit level 18 before 1-E, meaning the only bexp he's getting is in the 3-6 base, so he can do it precisely once.

Well in a way, he sort of can make a return on the investment. See, he caps HP at 30. This cap hits at level 9. HP is his highest growth, so it gives him a greater chance at one of his stronger growths. These include Strength, Skill and Speed, Skill the highest with Str and Speed tied, Luck being 10% off. His Str will be at 10, his skill at 14, his speed 15. With slowplay, it allows him another thing, to get reasonable levels while closing the level gap. I can say that reasonably, Eddie could get to level 9-10 by 1-5, so him robing would still fully benefit from it at that point in time. This allows him 5 bases. Considering he could gain levels and gain speed, he could cap speed and skill far sooner while boosting his Str. He could cap speed possibly by 1-8. He'd be I'd estimate level 15-16 when this happens. Possibly Skill as well. With those two maxed, he has basically Str, Luck and Def. So he could get an extra bit of Def, Luck, and plenty more Str out of this deal.

Obviously problem is, that's a lot of levels where the HP boost is dissapating though. But it can help in closing the level gap, which I'd find plenty important for a DB unit.

Requires Ed = level 19 by 3-6, so he can take a little bexp and hit 20 and seal, same as I'd do with Jill or Nolan. Of course, if he can hit level 20 on his own he'd save me bexp, but since I'm thinking he has issues hitting level 18, I'm not really going to consider level 20 as possible. (slightly more reasonable for him to hit 18 for 3-6 and my bexp + seal to result in 19/1 than hitting 19 and bexp + seal = 20/1. Most likely is after bexp + seal he'll be 17/1 or 18/1.)

Not sure why wouldn't want to BEXP him those levels. Str, Luck and Def sounds like a nice catch to me. 2 levels of it doesn't exactly sound painful.

Anyway, if Ed can hit 19/1 for 3-6, I'm pretty sure Z can hit level 6. Suggest level 20, I'm unwilling to accept less than level 6 for Z. Regardless, even a 20/1 Ed vs. a level 5 Zihark will lose the comparison if Zihark is given a Jill support, thanks to 13.5 def vs. 11.6. That 1 hp difference isn't fixing that disparity. Even if Ed supports Leo instead of Nolan, that's still 15.5 vs. 14.6. With Ed x Nolan, that's 15.5 vs. 13.6. Even if Z rounds down and Ed rounds up, that's a def lead, and 1 def is better than 1 hp for surviving multiple hits. To take a 29 mt + 39 mt hit, 31 hp means you need 19 defense. So a draco + a thicket = 18.5 def and if he rounds up he's already surviving. If he rounds down, well by level 6 or 7 it should happen most of the time. ~68% after 4 levels. Ed will need levels and probably have 33/35 hp before he can survive, so 11/21 or 12/22 is what he'll need. 18 def or 17 def. Draco makes 15.6, thicket makes 16.6. Another level makes 16.95 def. 33hp/17 def doesn't cut it. So he needs two more levels. 20/4 just to survive. That's with a +5 def above his averages from support + thicket + draco. If he gets a bit unlucky he'll even need level 20/5 instead of 20/4. 19/4 might work if 34.55 rounds up to 35, but that's not exactly going to be much over 50%. Point is, it happens sooner within 3-6 with Zihark, and Z doesn't need more levels than I think he can get in part 1 to pull it off.

If we did the BXP, suddenly their Def matches, except Eddie has a Light affinity, and Jill could be supporting Volug. Would make more sense, considering their mobility.

Who's to say he gets the draco? Could give to Nolan, he's using it for longer, has +Def from Eddie as well. Or we could accept that we are dealing with the new and improved Eddie. Level 8 Eddie (1-1 Boss kill, I'd rather not start this map having someone trade the sword to him) in 1-2 has 8 Def, 21 HP, 14 AS and 9 Str. He packs 15 Mt with iron, 18 with steel (though losing 3 AS).

1x Soldier lvl 6 (Bronze Lance)

HP 23, Atk 14, AS 10, Hit 116, Avo 26, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 0, Ddg 6

1x Soldier lvl 7 (Bronze Lance)

HP 24, Atk 15, AS 10, Hit 116, Avo 26, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 0, Ddg 6

3-4RKo him, 2RKOs them back with iron. Packing 5 crit on them.

1x Fighter lvl 8 (Bronze Axe)

HP 27, Atk 18, AS 11, Hit 111, Avo 28, DEF 7, RES 2, Crit 0, Ddg 6

1x Soldier lvl 6 (Javelin, below west ledge, guarding chests)

HP 23, Atk 17, AS 9, Hit 81, Avo 24, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 5, Ddg 6

1x Myrmidon lvl 8 ( Iron Sword, Chest key, near SW chests)

HP 22, Atk 14, AS 14, Hit 123, Avo 35, DEF 6, RES 2, Crit 11, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 7 (Iron Lance)

HP 24, Atk 18, AS 10, Hit 111, Avo 26, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 5, Ddg 6-3RKO, 2RKOs them in return. Ok, he needs steel on the myrm, but who better to throw at than Eddie? He doubles everyone else, and Eddie reduces his crit to 1.

2x Soldier lvl 8 (Iron Lance, one of them has stealable Vulnerary)

HP 24, Atk 18, AS 11, Hit 113, Avo 28, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 5, Ddg 6 More 3RKOd, 2RKOs in return.

1x Archer lvl 7 (Bronze Bow, stealable Vulnerary)

HP 23, Atk 15, AS 10, Hit 110, Avo 26, DEF 7, RES 3, Crit 0, Ddg 6

Yet another. Only 6 enemies otherwise 2RKO him, +the boss. Reinforcements should not even enter the equation here. He can ORKO with a crit, and no one else is capable of landing crits simply due to their luck canceling out whatever possible skill they could possibly have. Outside of Sothe, Eddie is the only one who can possibly do this by this point of time. Chapter 1-1, it allows him to go toe-to-toe with the boss, who would 3RKO his otherwise 8 Def to his 21 HP, the boss having 16 ATK. He 3RKOs in return, but nothing Leo can't fix. Either way, I'd want no one but Eddie to land the final blow, so that I don't have to trade it next battle, as Miccy should be fleeing immediately right after. It sucks in 1-3, but 1-4 it helps against the cats, as he would have 9+1 Def and 24 HP. He gets 3RKOd by cats, and an HP level makes it 4RKO. I do not see Miccy or Leo pulling this off, Nolan pretty much already was, and Sothe is Darth Maul.

Some would say it's giving Eddie favoritism, but as we know let's measure the opportunity cost. We lost tiny amounts of chip damage, and in exchange we got the catslayer who can actually help bumrush earlygame chapters unlike anyone else. Nolan might be more durable, bt Eddie could get some relevent durability, and has better offense due to crit and doubling.

I don't think I'll miss the tiny Leo damage, and Thani not ORKOing specific targets is easily made up for.

But again, I will withhold that, as I really do feel that might be because Im biased towards Eddie.

But Calill has this burning darkness thing going on. Eddie only gets light swords. Not even heavy swords. Light swords. Mia gets fiery swords, Z/L get wooden swords (Eternal Apprentice, funniest title ever), Stefan gets a sword from heaven, and Ed's sword could be lifted by a 3 year old.

Calill is the burning ambassador from the dark abyss.

Light swords...like...Lightsabers? Come on, Eddie is a fucking jedi. You cannot win with the darkside, Narga.

It makes a thought though, I always kinda assumed they were sort of augmentations. Like Mia with Fire has this sort of rocket force behind her swings which leave blazing trails where she slices, Lucia and Zihark move with the quakes of the earth as they bumrush the enemy (thus the evasiveness), and Eddie's light shines hard enough the blade stuns the enemy into weakness, leaving their swings weakened to be sure they're hitting something (thus the defense), which leaves them sitting ducks to be hit (and thus the hit).

I suppose I don't have a good reason. But I have a reason. Maybe I'm undervaluing his 1-P.

I feel like we just went through the evolution of a character throughout the game in reverse.

[Ether]

Alright.It seemed to be lost before,but what do you guys think of Miccy > Elincia?

[grandjackal]

I think she belongs in high in my opinion. She's too damn versatile, and doesn't even need serious leveling to still be incredibly useful. On top of that, she has 2 things no one else can-Auto-A support, and the ability to remove status and heal without staff use. That health syphon ability also means that she can make use of Wrath, so basically every other shot, something dies.

She's paper thin physical durability, but it's never hard to protect her. Low enemy density part 1, part 3 is basically all defensive play, and part 4 you have a good enough team to work with to make protecting her a non issue. She still has offense too, because having magic partially makes up for it.

Then all the time she has. She's just too much a swiss army knife for most of the game. Elincia's great at first, but when she returns she's merely ok+staffs and flight. Miccy might not be able to fly, but she's around to actually help. Their chances to kill are probably around the same (Wrath crit or double chance of Stun), but Miccy's is all range.

Besides, Miccy's forced, Elincia isn't. We have more incentive to power her.

[_____]

Jackal, I haven't read the entire argument, but it looks like you're giving Edward a Dracoshield, a forge, quite a bit of BEXP, and possibly a Robe while giving Zihark... nothing. What the fuck?

[grandjackal]

Jackal, I haven't read the entire argument, but it looks like you're giving Edward a Dracoshield, a forge, quite a bit of BEXP, and possibly a Robe while giving Zihark... nothing. What the fuck?

I'm giving him a slight bit of kill favoritism early on. Just the discussion then went to ow he performs after it all, and then te opportunity to put these to use came up.

The Robe was added with the slowplaying thing as an idea, it's not a serious part of the argument. Just sort of a second thought that holds no water, but it's there.

Forges are a weird deal, as you can make as many as you want in this game. What's wrong with Eddie getting a forge, considering Zihark doesn't even really need one for a good while? This isn't an argument to put him to upper mid, just above Calill.

Dracoshield, I just shown he actually can put it to good use, thus he has reasons to be competing for it. Zihark doesn't really need anything to be good anyways, as much better as he could be with it. Again, not an argument to get him to upper mid, but he is capable of comparing to Zihark in some form. Giving him something I could have put to good use earlier tends to be a negative, especially when that negative comes 6 chapters earlier. He's got a more fair chance at a later robe, obviously he can get a forge. He needs very little, and I'm not contesting that.

Not sure how much good he'd put a robe to use anyways, really. But my main argument is just kill favoritism early on, the rest of these points are just second thoughts to this new kind of Eddie.

[_____]

I'm giving him a slight bit of kill favoritism early on. Just the discussion then went to ow he performs after it all, and then te opportunity to put these to use came up.

A "slight bit"? Are you kidding me?

The Robe was added with the slowplaying thing as an idea, it's not a serious part of the argument. Just sort of a second thought that holds no water, but it's there.

About this "slowplaying" stuff you bring up in every single argument you make... It just doesn't work. We really would have to actively get Edward in the late 80s-90s in EXP for every chapter, limiting him to only, like, 9 attacks. That's not efficient. He's not going to get in the late 80s-90s for every chapter, and we don't have enough BEXP to be giving him a ton.

Forges are a weird deal, as you can make as many as you want in this game. What's wrong with Eddie getting a forge, considering Zihark doesn't even really need one for a good while? This isn't an argument to put him to upper mid, just above Calill.

There is nothing wrong with giving Edward a forge as long as you give Zihark something to compensate. There is an opportunity cost to the forge, even if it isn't huge.

Dracoshield, I just shown he actually can put it to good use, thus he has reasons to be competing for it.

With the slowplaying BEXP thing, it's useful. Didn't RF show when you tried to do this before that he doesn't put it to very good use without the BEXP?

Zihark doesn't really need anything to be good anyways, as much better as he could be with it.

And? Zihark doesn't need all of the favoritism you're giving Edward to still be better than Edward, which you just said yourself. What's the point of this comparison again?

Frankly, giving him a bunch of stuff and saying "He's still worse than Zihark!" isn't very convincing.

[grandjackal]

A "slight bit"? Are you kidding me?

You're seriously gonna cry over not 1 shotting a single enemy type on player phase?

The Robe was added with the slowplaying thing as an idea, it's not a serious part of the argument. Just sort of a second thought that holds no water, but it's there.

About this "slowplaying" stuff you bring up in every single argument you make... It just doesn't work. We really would have to actively get Edward in the late 80s-90s in EXP for every chapter, limiting him to only, like, 9 attacks. That's not efficient. He's not going to get in the late 80s-90s for every chapter, and we don't have enough BEXP to be giving him a ton.

Notice the bold. I'm aware of this.

Forges are a weird deal, as you can make as many as you want in this game. What's wrong with Eddie getting a forge, considering Zihark doesn't even really need one for a good while? This isn't an argument to put him to upper mid, just above Calill.

There is nothing wrong with giving Edward a forge as long as you give Zihark something to compensate. There is an opportunity cost to the forge, even if it isn't huge.

Are you saying Calill compares to a full fledged Zihark?

With the slowplaying BEXP thing, it's useful. Didn't RF show when you tried to do this before that he doesn't put it to very good use without the BEXP?

Possibly, as I can focus a bit mroe on HP now that I've compensated for some defense loss with the shield, but...Obviosuly, I'm not saying to slowplay draco Eddie here.

She had a severely underleveled and improperly used Eddie for the sake of doing minor chip damage being more important.

And? Zihark doesn't need all of the favoritism you're giving Edward to still be better than Edward, which you just said yourself. What's the point of this comparison again?

Frankly, giving him a bunch of stuff and saying "He's still worse than Zihark!" isn't very convincing.

Great to know I'd lose that fight, because I'm trying to show Eddie's potential compared to Calill. Calill cannot make 2-E or 3-9 go faster with any amount of favoritism, while Eddie can speed up pre-1-6 part 1. Even 1-6-1, Eddie can help still, Calill simply isnt helping that long.

Yeesh, I try to raise a DB above someone not a DB and I gotta compare them to high tier DB...

[_____]

A "slight bit"? Are you kidding me?

You're seriously gonna cry over not 1 shotting a single enemy type on player phase?

The Robe was added with the slowplaying thing as an idea, it's not a serious part of the argument. Just sort of a second thought that holds no water, but it's there.

About this "slowplaying" stuff you bring up in every single argument you make... It just doesn't work. We really would have to actively get Edward in the late 80s-90s in EXP for every chapter, limiting him to only, like, 9 attacks. That's not efficient. He's not going to get in the late 80s-90s for every chapter, and we don't have enough BEXP to be giving him a ton.

Notice the bold. I'm aware of this.

Forges are a weird deal, as you can make as many as you want in this game. What's wrong with Eddie getting a forge, considering Zihark doesn't even really need one for a good while? This isn't an argument to put him to upper mid, just above Calill.

There is nothing wrong with giving Edward a forge as long as you give Zihark something to compensate. There is an opportunity cost to the forge, even if it isn't huge.

Are you saying Calill compares to a full fledged Zihark?

With the slowplaying BEXP thing, it's useful. Didn't RF show when you tried to do this before that he doesn't put it to very good use without the BEXP?

Possibly, as I can focus a bit mroe on HP now that I've compensated for some defense loss with the shield, but...Obviosuly, I'm not saying to slowplay draco Eddie here.

She had a severely underleveled and improperly used Eddie for the sake of doing minor chip damage being more important.

And? Zihark doesn't need all of the favoritism you're giving Edward to still be better than Edward, which you just said yourself. What's the point of this comparison again?

Frankly, giving him a bunch of stuff and saying "He's still worse than Zihark!" isn't very convincing.

Great to know I'd lose that fight, because I'm trying to show Eddie's potential compared to Calill. Calill cannot make 2-E or 3-9 go faster with any amount of favoritism, while Eddie can speed up pre-1-6 part 1. Even 1-6-1, Eddie can help still, Calill simply isnt helping that long.

Yeesh, I try to raise a DB above someone not a DB and I gotta compare them to high tier DB...

Since basically the entire post is saying "I'm comparing Edward to Calill, not Zihark", I'll say this.

You said that Edward was comparable to Zihark after all of this. Not me. I'm responding to you.

[grandjackal]

'Twas a misunderstanding then?

Basically I'm saying Eddie can compare to Zihark, which is pretty great to do. Calill can at best only manage to pull off being better than Soren. I'm not quite impressed. Eddie can help speed up pre 1-6-2 part 1, Calill cannot speed up 2-E and 3-9. Both have part 4 potential.

I'd say Eddie>Calill is pretty simple.

[Florete]

Calill cannot speed up 2-E.

Meteor says hi.

[grandjackal]

Calill cannot speed up 2-E.

Meteor says hi.

Just as powerful as Hammer Haar and Elincia, how foolish of me!

Totally makes up for Eddie actually able to be something other than mediocre.

Edited October 9, 2009 by France

[Shadow Mir]

Eddie...actually being something other than mediocre? Don't make me laugh! All I see Edward doing is sucking after 1-P.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Richter Renard

[grandjackal]

Eddie...actually being something other than medicore? Don't make me laugh!

A defense even lousier than the argument of "he isn't Zihark"! So substantial, thank you for playing.

[Sol Hiryu]

I'm trying to process the whole argument in my head, but...exactly how much BEXP are you giving Edward? This is not FE9, where you have shittons of BEXP laying around; Part I BEXP is incredibly limited, and if Eddie taking more BEXP actually does make everyone worse, that's hurting the efficiency of the team. Heaven help you if he gets the Dracoshield, because then you have to argue why him getting it is > other people getting it, as several people can see a substantial durability increase from it.

Let's not even get started on supports.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Sol Hiryu

[Interceptor]

Totally makes up for Eddie actually able to be something other than mediocre.

France, good sarcasm isn't easy. If you lay it on too thick, people get turned off by the sneering mockery. If you use too little, your posts are bland and boring. You have to use a light touch, like a safecracker, or a pickpocket. When you do it correctly, people won't be sure if you were serious at all.

(Futurama is the greatest show ever)