OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

Yes, totally skip over his nearly required for some chapters part 1, why don't you?

Why not? Everyone else skips over his atrocious Part 4...

That's because we can with a unit like Sothe. You can use him while he's good and dump him while he's bad instead of being forced to go through the bad to get to the good.

[Dat Nick]

Why not? Everyone else skips over his atrocious Part 4...

Yes, his part 4 is rubbish. So? You don't just mention everything that sucks about a unit while mentioning none of his positives. Admit it, you're effing biased against Sothe. I've never once seen you acknowledge his part 1 utility.

Speaking of!

, he's practically useless in the endgame (which he is forced to participate in)

Kill him and swap a dragon in his place.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Narga_Rocks]

That begs the question: Why would you transfer a character to be worse than normal at all?

You wouldn't, that's why it's funny. The tier list is about potential, let's rank the "potential" of a transfer Sothe with average/fixed stats.

While I see where you're coming from, I must note that even in the realm of unreasonable actions there are certain things a sane player just won't do. Using PoR resources to make a character worse in the end is akin to boss abusing a unit that already has every stat capped (and can't promote either).

I mean, I could put it on as a joke, but I don't want to have too many joke characters, especially among the real characters, and Normal Transfer Sothe would not fit in Epic or Phail tier. Unless you want a joke tier between High and Upper Mid called Hyper Mid.

I'd say that it is more akin to boss abusing a unit in order to gain exactly one stat point (and make that single point go to magic for a physical fighter and to str for a mage until the stat caps).

I am not anti-Sothe. I have a great deal of respect for his character design, background and...

Oh fine, I hate his guts and think he and his stupid belly-shirt should die in a fire. I use him in Part 1, and then throw him aside like a used handkerchief. Most of the time I'll deploy him in 4-E-5 just to get him killed in purpose.

I just don't understand why so many people hate Sothe...I'm used to characters being overloved, like Soren, not overhated.

Yeah, Soren's fanbase has issues.

As for Sothe, maybe people just think that the belly shirt is really stupid or something. Also, people exaggerate Bane's badness.

His spd growth isn't very thief-like, though, and his str growth is not appropriate for his caps. A 45% str growth and a 60% spd growth would make Sothe significantly better. Maybe even cut some of his skill and give it to hp and def. Probably cut off 25% of his skill growth to make it 55% and make hp 40% and def 35%. Suddenly, Sothe would be much better, despite his caps. Also, if the transfer Sothe got a +2 hp, +1 str, +2 mag, +1 skl, +1 spd, +1 def, +2 res promotion bonus it would help too, considering Sothe did basically promote from PoR, so a direct transfer is stupid. Actually, since he insists on wearing that stupid shirt they should give him the female promotion bonuses, so +2 str/+2 def on top of his transfer stats and +3 str/+3 def for tier 3. Now he's actually pretty decent.

At least the Sothe haters have a better reason for hating Sothe than I do for hating Zihark.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Sol Hiryu]

Yeah, I really don't get Sothe hate, considering he's still one of your good units heading into part 3. I honestly think some of the hate Micaiah gets in fandom is thrown his way just by accessory.

Yeah, Soren's fanbase has issues.

Such is the tragedy of being a popular character. =(

Actually, since he insists on wearing that stupid shirt they should give him the female promotion bonuses, so +2 str/+2 def on top of his transfer stats and +3 str/+3 def for tier 3. Now he's actually pretty decent.

Well, at least we now know how Ike's the father of Sothe's children.

It's kind of odd how there isn't much for Sothe to steal/loot past 1-E, other than stuff found on the ground and probably Physic staves. Splitting his growths like you suggested would have made him a lot more usable. :x

[grandjackal]

Well either way, transfer Astrid won't be bottom tier in the least. Opening chapter, she can actually double a majority of the noob cavaliers humdinging around. She'll still be trashy, but at least she can actually do something to something now.

[Narga_Rocks]

Yeah, I really don't get Sothe hate, considering he's still one of your good units heading into part 3. I honestly think some of the hate Micaiah gets in fandom is thrown his way just by accessory.

I understand Micaiah hate even less than I understand Sothe hate. What's wrong with her? Sure, I'd like her speed growth to be a little better, but oh well.

It's kind of odd how there isn't much for Sothe to steal/loot past 1-E, other than stuff found on the ground and probably Physic staves. Splitting his growths like you suggested would have made him a lot more usable. :x

I'm not sure there are any physic staves for him to steal. There is one in 4-P (the guy also has Ellight and Recover) but I don't remember where he was and 10 turns on this map isn't as easy as 10 turns for 3-10 or 3-11, so I'm not sure how easy it is to get him to attack you so that you can steal the physic. There is also a physic stave to steal in 4-3, but at that point it's better to send other things to the convoy like the Vague Katti so I'm not sure the physic would be usable in 4-4 or 4-5, and in 4-E you can buy physics.

This game is quite different from other Fire Emblems, there are only 5 chapters with chests, too:

1-2, 1-4, 1-E, 4-4, and one in 4-E-1. I think other FEs have a lot more, though I'm not sure. FE 4 I don't think had chests, and I'm not going to count how many chapters in PoR, and I never played the rest. Also, while there is stuff to find on many maps, a lot of it is coins. There isn't much for Sothe to get until 4-3. Coins aren't so great in a "no reset aside from death" playstyle like the tier list is.

This in comparison to fe9 where there is just so very much for Volke to grab from units (and I guess Sothe too) that I had no real reason to not deploy Volke every map. Also, my 5 or so sleep staves were fun, too. And pretty much every physic staff in the game ended up in Volke's hands to go along with most of the long range tomes. Sothe gets 2 chapters with stealable long-range tomes: 1-E and 4-P. I haven't actually figured out just how to get the 1-E one and finish in 12 turns. Then in part 3 there is:

3-2, 3-5, 3-10, 3-E, of which Heather has the str to steal precisely none (without abuse). This game severely limits thief utility. I suppose this game has disarm, but it's basically random what you get since spending 4 turns attempting to disarm a specific item is not efficient at all.

Well either way, transfer Astrid won't be bottom tier in the least. Opening chapter, she can actually double a majority of the noob cavaliers humdinging around. She'll still be trashy, but at least she can actually do something to something now.

NO. 17 speed still blows (for 2-E and 3-9 anyway, and for a large portion of 2-3, even). I suppose she can double some of them, but that only helps if we are actually routing, and I've always found selective killings and pushing forward quickly to be faster than attempting to clear out enough of them to make a difference for Astrid. Keep in mind with 2 range lock she's getting a maximum of 11 attacks and it's rather easy to finish in 9 turns or less (if you don't care enough about the arms scroll to take more than one shot at it). I suppose she can get a str transfer, too, so she'll have 15 str, but that's still only 25 with a steel bow and she's 4HKOing most, so she needs Mak or someone to weaken anyway, and at that point I'm not sure doubling matters because a lot of the things she doubles can be brought really low for her to KO rather easily anyway. How much exp does 10 KOs of tier 1 units get for her anyway?

Well, maybe Astrid > Pelleas now, maybe not. He still gets staves with a crown, though I question the value of that.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

NO.

*wipes the spittle off my face*

Well at least I'm not completely off my rocker. As for other CRK and Crimean Peasants...

Uhhh yeah. I believe by now, spears alone should be putting Nephenee above Mia now.

Brom can get a +2 speed if every level of his PoR existence. +2 def, str if we're lucky and energy him. He might not become Gatrie, but at least he's not getting his fat ass doubled. I think...Perhaps it's in part 2 I'm thinking of.

Haar with max HP, 2 more Str. Give him a secret book, we can slowplay him already.

Makalov basically turns into Keiran with swords and a little less durable, but has a better affinity, growths, and caps. He gets axes upon promotion anyways, and all an A misses out on is the Tomohawk I believe.

Keiran gets boosts to help him get slowplayed (for what it's worth in CRK chapters? Very little). But otherwise...More of a killface? I dunno, 23 speed cap just dooms his ass.

Marcia? Lol, Str, Skill AND Speed boosts.

[Narga_Rocks]

Uhhh yeah. I believe by now, spears alone should be putting Nephenee above Mia now.

NO.

Level 6 Nephenee with str/skl/spd gives her, what?

18.75 str, 24.5 skl, 25.25 spd.

Still has 34.25 hp, 14 luck, 16.75 def, 16.25 res.

Level 9 Mia has:

35.4 hp, 17.9 str, 27.2 skl, 29.3 spd, 18.7 luck, 13.8 def, 8.5 res.

I'm assuming you are saying Neph (T) > Mia (V), because Mia (T) >> Neph (T)

So I'll focus on Mia (V)

So from what I'm seeing Mia is immune to halb crit and elthunder crit, or at least nearly so, Neph has more def and str but Mia has a +6 crit rate and her own fire, so unless Neph wants to be tied to Brom (who may not be in play) or Heather then Neph doesn't have +mt or +def. So a 1 mt differential thanks to lances that is eliminated by Mia's fire. Also, 12 or 13 avo lead, and Mia could have a C Ike by now whereas Neph will be waiting 2 chapters before she could have C Ike (when Mia will have B Ike). Also, Mia's hp growth > Neph's hp growth, and Mia's def growth is slightly higher but more readily raised through bexp. Also her str is more readily increased through bexp. This is because usually Neph will get str or def, whereas Mia will frequently get both from level 14 on. Neph (T) still needs to wait till level 10 to bexp for str/def anyway since res isn't getting a transfer boost and we want str/def to be tied for 3rd best, not 4th best. Also, while it may seem like Neph can have 10 bexp levels, it doesn't work that way in HM since you can't give her more than one per base, so it's more like 6 bexp levels or something. Trust me, I've tried to bexp multiple units without it costing too much, and the more you try to slowplay the bexp the longer it takes to get them to promotion.

Also, better adept proc rate. Also, vantage + adept + cancel > Adept + Cancel + wrath, or Adept + cancel + nothing, or Adept + vantage, or Vantage + cancel.

Basically, Mia is capable of a superior set of skills, too. Javelins don't help much when you have just 26 mt with them, considering Mia can have 25 mt with wind edges and a better hit rate (slightly) and a better crit rate and a better potential adept proc rate. Short spears exist, but so do storm swords. And storm sword > short spear. Then when Neph can finally get access to a javelin forge, Mia's about 2 chapters away from promotion and ORKOing everything that isn't a general. Also, wyrmslayer access during all this time.

Also, to get Neph near Mia's durability you need to give her earth, but doing that will mean she doesn't get a +mt support at all, so Mia just needs a few levels and an A support and she'll start pulling a decent mt gap, too. Other option is having Neph go with fire/dark/water, but then Mia just pulls away in durability with Ike.

I suppose transfer Neph probably deserves a place in high, but she's not > Mia (V).

Brom can get a +2 speed if every level of his PoR existence. +2 def, str if we're lucky and energy him. He might not become Gatrie, but at least he's not getting his fat ass doubled. I think...Perhaps it's in part 2 I'm thinking of.

Too bad he's still not getting to double anything. Guess his part 2 goes a bit better, though. Brom > Tauroneo (V/T)? Funny thing, Tauroneo could get +1 in every stat every single level in PoR and cap nothing.

Haar with max HP, 2 more Str. Give him a secret book, we can slowplay him already.

NO.

All Haar needs is the 2-3 speedwing, and having hp capped and skill capped isn't going to save him from needing the thing, nor will it mean he gets to 23 or 24 speed significantly earlier. I suppose starting with hp and skill capped would be nice, but I really don't think we should just be giving out stat boosters in PoR so he's still far away from str. Str, Lck, Res are all going to be more likely than speed, so it won't likely help until 3-5 where he'll have 24, but 25 is better there anyway. I suppose 3-7 as well. I don't know if that's enough for me to see him above Vanilla Ike, though maybe. Transfer Ike still beats him, though. Transfer Haar is still in top, he's not moving into Transfer Ike's tier of brokenness.

Makalov basically turns into Keiran with swords and a little less durable, but has a better affinity, growths, and caps. He gets axes upon promotion anyways, and all an A misses out on is the Tomohawk I believe.

Str and Spd, that's about it. He still fails vs. Vanilla Marcia simply because she has more chapters to reach respectable amounts of speed before 3-11. I suppose he competes with vanilla Kieran, though, since it's just a 3 mt difference thanks to axes being 2 stronger than swords and Kieran's 21 str being one higher than Mak's new 20 str. Starting with 20 speed and a 75% growth certainly helps, so he's far more useful than Kieran (V) in the GM chapters and won't need as much paragon to get good in part 4. Still needs a crown. Could maybe crown at level 17 without losing too much. I suppose he's > Kieran (V) thanks to that, though maybe not.

Keiran gets boosts to help him get slowplayed (for what it's worth in CRK chapters? Very little). But otherwise...More of a killface? I dunno, 23 speed cap just dooms his ass.

Somebody said it (I think) before the timewarp, but it's been lost. As a male gold knight he fails at life. Which is only really applicable to the Gold Knight (Axe) versions, because the Gold Knight (Sword) version is generally better than the Silver Knight (M) units at endgame.

Anyway, 23 speed tier 2 cap and 31 speed tier 3 cap hurt a lot. str, skl, spd don't do that much. I suppose he could cap str/spd at level 16 and be only 1 skl and .25 hp down from those caps, so probably hp/str/spd at level 16. He could crown there and have a whole 25 speed for part 4. Woohoo. I suppose he has a chance at getting that for 3-E, but that's just one chapter. There are, however, a bunch of enemies with 17 or 18 speed in 2-3 and 3-9, so that's a plus. He'd definitely be better than Vanilla Tanith (transfer tanith gets skl and spd, but the spd is the important one there and that's enough already for TT > TK) but I'm not sure how much higher. Possibly > Tauroneo.

Marcia? Lol, Str, Skill AND Speed boosts.

kekeke. If not for availability, transfer Marcia for high. As it is, 22 speed with the steel greatlance, compared to the 18 speed that would mean before? Yes please. She's quite a bit better in every single one of her chapters and can easily start 3-11 with 25 speed, possibly 26 speed, either way 26 speed is stupidly easy for 3-E. In the other topic Red Fox and I already discussed that Transfer Marcia easily jumps into upper mid, though we never located precisely where.

[Dat Nick]

At least the Sothe haters have a better reason for hating Sothe than I do for hating Zihark.

Smash is going to pounce on this riiiiight about....now.

[Narga_Rocks]

At least the Sothe haters have a better reason for hating Sothe than I do for hating Zihark.

Smash is going to pounce on this riiiiight about....now.

Smash doesn't read my posts. The only one I have to worry about jumping on my posts is PaperBlade, and he mostly ignores this topic so it may or may not ever happen here.

I really don't know why I hate the guy, though. He's pretty good for about half his PoR existence because of earth, and is good in part 1 in this game and doesn't have an annoying personality (probably, but I never read his support convos in PoR). There is some similarities to Sephiroth that might have something to do with it, but oh well.

[grandjackal]

The transfers really do make me wonder about Calill though. She herself in PoR doesn't come close enough to cap stats in any form, aside from maybe the mage band helping her magic, but you'd need to give her 2 spirit dusts even then. Basically, she's getting all her boosts from Largo, for 5 HP, 2 Str, skill, and a wing gives us 2 speed as well. Quite impressive boosts. Lessee what we get.

37 HP, 11 Str, 19 Mag, 20 Skill, 20 Speed, 16 Luck, 11 Def, 17 Res

Pity that magic can't realistically be given a boost. Def boost I think is possible with a defense boosting band, but you'd have to give her 3 dracoshields after. A tad too nuts for me. So your every day Transfer Calill is looking like this. I suppose a use of Calill boosts her weapon ranks, though I have no clue what good it would do in RD.

Anyways, some things have changed.

-She is no longer weighed down by Meteor.

-She is now able to double one form of archer, all thunder sages, and all but one general in her opening chapter, improving her offense immensely. She gains a speed level, doubles all generals and now all soldiers. ORKOs soldiers with Elfire, the archer with regular fire, 2RKOs sages with generally anything she's able to use at this time, same with generals (though in this case, she's doing more damage than generally anyone else save perhaps Mordy or Haar), a forged Fire can generally 2RKO everything else on the map.

-The average attack rate of enemies in her opening chapter are packing 28 attack. She is no longer 2RKOd.

-Come 3-11, she is no longer doubled at base by a sizeable amount of enemies on the map. On top of this, she can even avoid a 2RKO still here, though this is only the case for 5 units on the map so it's rather specific. Swordmasters would be added, but they double. It itsn't surprising though, only people they wouldn't be doubling are probably Geoff, Marcia, and that's it.

-Statistically, she now caps Skill a grand total of 4 levels sooner, only needing 5 to hit her cap. Speed caps 2 levels sooner. She caps HP at level 15. A speedwing, she caps speed generally the same time as Skill. You could crown her then, or you could BEXP her up a bit to cap her magic if you're willing to wing her(along with getting some extra luck and res in the process). The important part is if you can cap her speed by the time she rejoins the main group. If you can, you can crown her and you get this.

12/1 Calill

43 HP, 17 Str, 23 Mag, 25 Skill, 27 Speed, 19 Luck, 16 Def, 22 Res. 69 hit (lolololol), 73 avoid, 12 crit. Possible Bond with Nephenee. A possible A with Marcia (no idea who to support her with) gets her +1 ATK, 3 hit, 3 avoid.

A 20/1 Soren is missing 5 HP, 2 Speed, 3 Luck, only having 6 Mag and 3 Res to make up for it. Unfortunately, Calill is actually doubling. This is her against a fully trained Soren, which is a ridiculous notion, as fully training up Vanilla Soren is a nightmare. This is also saying I didn't just give her BEXP when she caps skill to get generally the same effect, as Speed is her second highest growth next to luck, meaning she doesn't even need a wing. She might need a spirit dust, but I can't honestly think of anyone who would want it anyways. She's the one doubling semi-naturally here, she deserves something, and I'd rather give her a far less competed over resource than give Soren something insanely important.

A 20/20/1 Illyana (Guh...) has a mere 3 Def over her in durability. How is she losing? 3 less speed and luck, severely cutting into her offense and dodging capabilities. Her light affinity helps, and so does her having 5 more Magic, but I'll take the speed, thank you. Their affinities are complete opposites however. Light boosts defense and hit, which increases her accuracy and defensive leads in all fairness. Calill can bolster up her offense more with her darkness affinity, and the avoid can be put to good use, given she supports someone with Earth (like Lucia). However, being crowned, and being similar to Illyana defensively when she's fully trained while having better offense? Yes, I think it's fair to say that Calill is good enough to actually put fear in people.

Transfer Calill is at least performing better than the endgamer laguz I believe. Off the bat goodness (not necessarily greatness though), can be usable for most of her existence, and has a stellar endgame in itself. Only mage there that could possibly have the speed to be doubling regularly, sniper ability for 4-E-2 to get the Wishblade, is pretty durable towards spirits, and is an excellent Nasir partner with Rexflame, her speed, and the +5 Magic he gives off. Staff utility on top of it all once she promotes, which never hurts of course.

Secondary note: Calill's base durability? Soren needs to promote at 20 just to not be worse, and Illyana needs to be preeeeetty deep into her career at 20/15 generally. That's BASE Transfer Calill.

Edited October 6, 2009 by France

[Narga_Rocks]

The transfers really do make me wonder about Calill though. She herself in PoR doesn't come close enough to cap stats in any form, aside from maybe the mage band helping her magic, but you'd need to give her 2 spirit dusts even then. Basically, she's getting all her boosts from Largo, for 5 HP, 2 Str, skill, and a wing gives us 2 speed as well. Quite impressive boosts. Lessee what we get.

Actually, Largo can technically cap speed without a wing, it's just complicated:

52.2 -> 62.6 / 60 hp

21.1 -> 30.2 / 30 str

21.5 -> 27.35 / 24 skl

20.75 -> 26.6 / 28 spd

So he doesn't have much room to give with str, but we can pretty much ignore all the -.05s for skill and hp.

He's 1.4 down so needs 28 +.05s in 13 levels.

A speed band covers 13 of them, so 15 left.

He can do 4 levels with an iron axe and still cap str, so he needs 11 more from somewhere.

Some of those can be levels with a Poleax or a Hammer equipped, since those don't cost any strength.

Say 4 levels.

Needs 7 from enemies.

Again, he can ignore losses to hp because 2.6 hp above caps means 52 levels worth of minuses, and considering he can only get 13 levels or 26 worth of minuses, skill and hp are fine.

So he needs 7 levels while facing:

Archer -5 0 0 +5 +5 0 0 -5

Sniper -5 0 0 +5 +5 0 0 -5

Bow Knight -5 0 0 +5 +5 0 0 -5

to get speed boosts without losing str.

Also, he can fight:

Bandit +5 +5 0 -5 0 0 0 -5

Berserker +5 +5 0 -5 0 0 0 -5

Fighter +5 +5 0 -5 0 -5 0 0

Warrior +5 +5 0 -5 0 -5 0 0

Axe Knight +5 +5 -5 0 0 -5 0 0

Bird tribe (Hawk) -5 +5 0 +5 0 0 -5 0

Hawk -5 +5 0 +5 0 0 -5 0

to get str without losing speed, and as such can use iron axes more often during leveling.

For example, 4 levels while fighting these would mean he can level 8 times with an iron axe. Combining that with the 4 times with the specialty weapons I listed earlier means:

13 + 12 = 25.

Now he just needs 3 from fighting archer/sniper/bow knight, though I'm thinking everything is promoted by now so he'd have to find snipers to attack for when he's about to level.

Still, it is theoretically possible to force spd onto Largo while not giving up str.

If you are willing to give up on str, it's quite easy to just use iron or poleax or hammer ever time he's about to level. Well, that and 2 levels while fighting snipers. But if you are willing to give up on str it doesn't have to be snipers anymore since there are enemies like cats that give +.05 spd and -.05 str. Which also reduces the number of iron/poleax/hammer levels required. To keep str capped, you just have to make sure some of his other levels are while attacking those things I listed, like if x + y levels were done while wielding the iron axe (x) or attacking things (y) that boost spd but reduce str, then >= x + y - 4 levels need to be reached while attacking hawks/warriors/berserkers (I'm assuming there are no longer any fighters/bandits/axe knights by the time Largo appears).

Also, he needs to never ever attack anything that reduces speed if he's about to level. He needs 28 out of a potential 39 spd boosts, so even a + b = 6 levels while attacking something that reduces speed (a) or while using a weapon that reduces speed (b ) will make it impossible for him to ever cap speed without a wing (needs 34 boosts with 33 remaining). So a + b < 6 is a requirement, but a + b = 0 makes life much easier since it allows some leeway where he can attack stuff that doesn't reduce speed (c ), or use silver/killer/brave axe (d) if he wants. A total of c + d <= 11 is the requirement there. Too bad there is no such thing as a slim axe, since that would be awesome for speed capping.

So combining those statements you get:

2(a + b ) + c + d < 12.

And e > 28 + a + b, if e is anything that gets a spd boost.

(Oh, and Meteor in this game is 18 wt, so there is no sage in the game that isn't weighed down by it until promotion. I think you were looking at meteor in PoR, which has 11 wt and 3 more mt than the RD version. Yes, that's right, not only did they nerf sages themselves, they also went and nerfed their long range tomes as well.)

Edited October 6, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

I suppose besides the meteor deal, this helps my argument? If so, sweet! I'm on the right track for once! Ok then, lessee...

Sorry, I'm just not familiar with fixed mode enough to get used to it straight away. Never tried it and unfortunately, I lost my PoR disk. But I guess I'll ask this then.

With this in mind, wouldn't Calill then only want to focus on things that boost magic and defense?

..Well fuck, apparently it's damn near impossible to get her defense in fixed mode. 0 base, no magic gives +Def, meaning she has to completely rely on enemies who give Def, of which a lot take away from magic as well, along with this being terribly inconvenient for her. Even worse, those who give magic+ are enemies that suck to kill with a mage (Mages, Sages, Valkyries. Though I suppose it's Easy mode, so who cares?). However, this just means she is going to basically be using long range, A and S rank tomes basically forever. She'd need to do this 11 of the 14 chances she has. Is that even close to enough? She has a better chance of capping Speed, and you'd basically have to give her nothing but A rank spells. I guess a mage band would help.

If you can max magic though, that's another plus for her. Theoretically, you could give her Spirit Dust, and she'd have no problem crowning early at all. She'd easily be your best mage, hands down, that is unless Transfer Soren can manage to get speed somehow. Considering the only magic that nets you speed is A rank, in fixed mode I highly doubt Soren's gonna be legging it in speed any time soon.

I suppose if you let her focus solely on magic she could get close, and you could just give her a spirit dust.

Thought just occured-Wouldn't it be better to transfer in normal mode? Slower leveling speed allows more time to get points in stats, and we still have ample BEXP.

[Zkirsche]

We have to transfer from hard mode in PoR because this is a HM playthrough.

[Tino]

...It could be me, but that doesn't make any sense at all.

[grandjackal]

...It could be me, but that doesn't make any sense at all.

You mean my argument, or that detail on fixed mode? If the latter, I'm not familiar with fixed mode at all, due to not having played it.

[Zkirsche]

Basically, to transfer PoR stats into HM, we need to play a PoR runthrough on HM. We cannot transfer data from easy mode in PoR to Hard Mode in RD.

[Sol Hiryu]

...since when was that decided? A PoR transfer from any mode works for any mode of RD, provided you got the easy mode glitched fixed.

[Tino]

...It could be me, but that doesn't make any sense at all.

You mean my argument, or that detail on fixed mode? If the latter, I'm not familiar with fixed mode at all, due to not having played it.

I was actually talking to kirsche.

[Narga_Rocks]

I suppose besides the meteor deal, this helps my argument? If so, sweet! I'm on the right track for once! Ok then, lessee...

Sorry, I'm just not familiar with fixed mode enough to get used to it straight away. Never tried it and unfortunately, I lost my PoR disk. But I guess I'll ask this then.

With this in mind, wouldn't Calill then only want to focus on things that boost magic and defense?

..Well fuck, apparently it's damn near impossible to get her defense in fixed mode. 0 base, no magic gives +Def, meaning she has to completely rely on enemies who give Def, of which a lot take away from magic as well, along with this being terribly inconvenient for her. Even worse, those who give magic+ are enemies that suck to kill with a mage (Mages, Sages, Valkyries. Though I suppose it's Easy mode, so who cares?). However, this just means she is going to basically be using long range, A and S rank tomes basically forever. She'd need to do this 11 of the 14 chances she has. Is that even close to enough? She has a better chance of capping Speed, and you'd basically have to give her nothing but A rank spells. I guess a mage band would help.

If you can max magic though, that's another plus for her. Theoretically, you could give her Spirit Dust, and she'd have no problem crowning early at all. She'd easily be your best mage, hands down, that is unless Transfer Soren can manage to get speed somehow. Considering the only magic that nets you speed is A rank, in fixed mode I highly doubt Soren's gonna be legging it in speed any time soon.

I suppose if you let her focus solely on magic she could get close, and you could just give her a spirit dust.

Thought just occured-Wouldn't it be better to transfer in normal mode? Slower leveling speed allows more time to get points in stats, and we still have ample BEXP.

Unless you can do something about her magic I don't think it's a good idea to crown her early in RD.

Anyway, Ilyana in PoR has a 8.45 base and so hits 25.95 mag naturally and has 33 levels to grow. The mage band gives 3.3 mag, so 29.25. All she needs is another .75, or 15 worth of other things. With rexbolt and thoron and long range tomes I don't see any issues with 15 levels out of that, possibly with some Mage/Sage enemies thrown in.

Soren/Mist/Rhys/Elincia all cap regardless, so I see no issue with Calill getting a spirit dust and Ilyana probably doesn't need it anyway but I suppose having every level with a mage band might be hard. Still, Bastian doesn't need the extra mag in RD anyway and he's 23.85 out of 30 anyway with only 7 levels. 7 * .20 = 1.4 so his max without dusts is 25.25 anyway. 3 dusts is nuts.

Calill needs to hit 28 then:

25.6 with 14 levels.

Needs 2.4.

Mage band gives 1.4, needs another 1.0.

Needs 20 levels with A/S rank tomes and long range spells and fighting mages/sages (no enemy Valkyries. The game only has Mist + an NPC Valkyrie with Geoffrey).

Do you get 2 spirit dusts or 3 in PoR? If it's 3, I see no reason for Calill not to get 2. If it's just 2, then Ilyana might need one, but we may not be transferring her anyway.

Anyway, Calill would need to take all 14 levels with A/S/long range and level while attacking 6 mages/sages and never take a minus. And that's just to get 28. Without dusts 30 is impossible.

I'm not sure Calill getting a mag transfer is reasonable even with 1 dust, but with 2 it's easy.

We have to transfer from hard mode in PoR because this is a HM playthrough.

I don't see any reason for that. HM is basically Maniac Mode, and we never got Maniac Mode for PoR, so we are already not doing it right. But in PoR HM you can still get 6 fighters and a couple of staff users to 20/20 without any difficulty. Actually, if you want to require HM, then the transfer versions of characters like Oscar are unlikely to be in competition with the transfer versions of Ike + Mia + Neph + Titania + Shinon so if you want to talk about performance relative to the PCs then requiring the transfer to come from HM would just end up helping all the transfer characters more than it hurts them because they mostly compare against the vanilla versions.

Oh, and I have the option to choose my easy mode save in PoR to transfer when I select HM in RD. Even did it by accident once. That was annoying. Maybe that was my NM RD game where I did it by accident, though. Anyway, I have the option to choose the EM save for RD HM, so I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

So basically it could be assumed that Calill could walk into RD with +5 HP, +2 Mag, Skill and Speed boosts? Quite monsterous boosts really. It improves her role drastically, as If I recall, she was a couple mt off of ORKOing some things with a max mt fire forge. A +2 Mag could help in this. I must ask, would a spirit dust hurt her now? I mean...very few people in RD put spirit dust to any sort of use. I see no reason NOT to give it to her.

That would in fact put her to 23 Mag just at base. 2 off her cap. Secret book would put her 1 off her Skill cap, basically would help eliminate more stats so that Speed is more likely in a BEXP slowplay, since she is far off that. Would be her highest growth outside of Luck, which is a tie. Takes two levels to cap Skill, about 4-5 for Magic after a dusting. In this time, she'd have gained 2 Speed, putting her to 22, possibly 23. 2 BEXP levels, ready for a crown.

All it takes is a Spirit Dust no one else puts to better use, and a Secret Book of which no one else gives a shit about. Still too expensive?

Edited October 6, 2009 by France

[Narga_Rocks]

So basically it could be assumed that Calill could walk into RD with +5 HP, +2 Mag, Skill and Speed boosts? Quite monsterous boosts really. It improves her role drastically, as If I recall, she was a couple mt off of ORKOing some things with a max mt fire forge. A +2 Mag could help in this. I must ask, would a spirit dust hurt her now? I mean...very few people in RD put spirit dust to any sort of use. I see no reason NOT to give it to her.

That would in fact put her to 23 Mag just at base. 2 off her cap. Secret book would put her 1 off her Skill cap, basically would help eliminate more stats so that Speed is more likely in a BEXP slowplay, since she is far off that. Would be her highest growth outside of Luck, which is a tie. Takes two levels to cap Skill, about 4-5 for Magic after a dusting. In this time, she'd have gained 2 Speed, putting her to 22, possibly 23. 2 BEXP levels, ready for a crown.

All it takes is a Spirit Dust no one else puts to better use, and a Secret Book of which no one else gives a shit about. Still too expensive?

I'm iffy on giving anyone a spirit dust in RD. There are 3, but look at them:

1-5, from Aimee, for 8000. That's like 3 or 4 forges gone to get an item that can't be used by Calill until 3-11. Also, Calill and Ilyana cap mag in tier 2 naturally anyway, so possibly that 8000 is being put aside until part 4.

3-9, need to find it. A level 11 Marcia has 38 hp, 24 spd, 18 def, 15 luck.

The boss has 22 str and a 13 mt weapon for 35 mt and 22 crit with it.

Marcia takes 17 damage and is 3HKOd, aka critblick-able. The only way to avoid this is if Marcia uses the 2-1 ashera icon and has an A support with Kieran in PoR to get a +5 bond. Then she can have 22 cev and not be crittable. Except she can't stand on the spirit dust and be adjacent to him anyway. So all the icon does is cut it down to a 5% chance to die rather than 7%. (Well, .07 x true hit or .05 x true hit, but whatever). So she can't just sit on the spirit dust until she gets it. Aside from that, your only option is to KO the boss with Marcia/Kieran/Makalov/Astrid/Geoffrey, and you get one shot at the thing. Hope your unit is on best bio so they at least get (skill + 20)% rather than something lower. Still not going to be above a 45% chance of getting it. If you could have Mordy with pass here you could smite the boss out of the way, but you don't, so one shot at it, maybe 2 or 3 if you are feeling lucky with Marcia. Chance to die without even guaranteeing the dust = bad, though.

The last one requires a Mist x Boyd A pairing. Which requires fielding Boyd. Also, Mist only gets +2 def for durability, rather than +3 def or +2 def +8 avo, or +3 def +8 avo. And Boyd only gets +3 mt, +2 def, +8 hit, not sure how much that helps his durability.

Basically, I find it undesirable or unlikely to get any of the spirit dusts in RD.

Anyway, she's probably better off just waiting to cap things at 20/15. With a hp/str/mag/skl/spd transfer, she can have hp/mag/skl/spd capped at 20/15. Also just 2 away from str.

40 hp, 13 str, 25 mag, 23 skill, 25 spd, 21 luck, 12 def, 21.5 res.

If she pulls that off by the end of 3-E she can get a small amount of bexp to get to level 16. str/lck/res probably go up.

40 hp, 14 str, 25 mag, 23 skill, 25 spd, 22 luck, 12 def, 22.5 res.

Unfortunately, to start boosting def she needs 2 more levels just to get one, then another level. In NM, she could probably take 4.2 (assuming level 15 with 80 exp at the end of 3-E) levels of bexp all at once and get 40 hp, 15 str, 25 mag, 23 skill, 25 spd, 27 luck, 15 def, 25 res. Cool though that would be, you can't buy that in RD. Best bet is level 17 with ~1.2 levels of bexp, which is rather expensive still.

40 hp, 15 str, 25 mag, 23 skill, 25 spd, 23 luck, 12 def, 23.5 res.

Then get crowned.

44 hp, 20 str, 27 mag, 25 skill, 27 spd, 23 luck, 17 def, 25.5 res.

Which is nice, sure, but that's in 4-P/1/2. Still, I suppose she doubles paladins, and has 38 mt with a C support and a fire forge.

KOs anything with less than

45 hp and 16 res.

There are a lot of paladins she can KO.

Given how she's still 2HKOd by 39 mt, though, she's getting 2HKOd by most starting in 4-3/4/5, I think. Well, a fair amount 3HKOs her still, so that helps.

With her 35% hp and 15% def growths, though, she's not likely to reach 3HKO for 4-E-1/2. So that's annoying. Also, whites probably 2HKO her too. I suppose she can hop over Skrimir though, if nothing else. I don't think she jumps to upper mid, anyway. Maybe better than Marcia (V), but that's a stretch.

[grandjackal]

Tibarn route Laguz Blasting? Earth with Lucia, someone who would love some mt? Would basically have the same move then? Can heal Lucia when she needs to, chip for her as well?

I'd say with this effort, Transfer Calill might be one of the better units to bring to endgame for the sole purpose that with this, she doesn't really suck at any part of endgame. She doubles slow-ass generals in 4-E-1, sniper magic for the Wishblade in 4-E-2, everyone loves anyone packing thunder in 4-E-3, has the resistance in 4-E-4 with Rexflame making her all the better, and 4-E-5, pretty much the only mage that has any hope of doubling Auras, and can thanks to Nasir. All while able to counter range, staff utility, and providing a support to someone who would love additional power, while both get sizeable avoid thanks to Lucia's Earth.

Perhaps I'm loony, but isn't this basically the reason V Neph is in upper mid?

[Narga_Rocks]

Tibarn route Laguz Blasting? Earth with Lucia, someone who would love some mt? Would basically have the same move then? Can heal Lucia when she needs to, chip for her as well?

I'd say with this effort, Transfer Calill might be one of the better units to bring to endgame for the sole purpose that with this, she doesn't really suck at any part of endgame. She doubles slow-ass generals in 4-E-1, sniper magic for the Wishblade in 4-E-2, everyone loves anyone packing thunder in 4-E-3, has the resistance in 4-E-4 with Rexflame making her all the better, and 4-E-5, pretty much the only mage that has any hope of doubling Auras, and can thanks to Nasir. All while able to counter range, staff utility, and providing a support to someone who would love additional power, while both get sizeable avoid thanks to Lucia's Earth.

Perhaps I'm loony, but isn't this basically the reason V Neph is in upper mid?

How is most of that any different from what Calill is already doing? I think you just don't appreciate Calill (V) enough. Only difference I'm seeing is that transfer Calill can crown in 4-P/1/2 without losing anything and Calill (V) has to stay unpromoted until 4-3/4/5. She's not ORKOing Levail regardless, so Micaiah purges and Calill KOs and both V and T Calill can pull that one off. This means her speed goes up a little more quickly and she has maybe 2 more magic at times than Calill (V) and reaches SS sooner, but I don't think there is a tier's difference between Calill (T) and Calill (V).

If she doubles a lot more stuff in 2-E and 3-9 with 20 speed (and probably 21 for 3-9, 22 near the end) then I could maybe see a tier difference, since she'd have more improvements and probably double in 3-E as well. I suppose doing better than she already does in 2-E and 3-9 and 3-E and 4-P/1/2 could be enough for a tier's difference, but I'm not sure.

...

wait

...

Lucia in endgame? Wha?

edit:

and at least Neph is mostly 3HKOd in part 3. Calill is 2HKOd far more often, and Neph can eventually pull off 4HKO pretty frequently, I think. Also, Neph doesn't really have a period of time in which she isn't doubling.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

All it takes is a Spirit Dust no one else puts to better use [...]

I hate to keep bringing this up, but a Spirit Dust on Ulki caps his tied-for-fourth highest growth, similar to how the Talisman caps one that's a three-way tie for sixth.