OMG it's a tier list

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Sothe for top tier because of his thieving utility.

He gets you Thani(!), an Energy Drop, a Seraph Robe, 3000g, an Unlock staff, Vantage, Parity, a Speedwing, Matrona, and is probably going to be responsible for Beastfoe, Dragonfoe, the Baselard, a White Gem, a Laguz Gem, the Brave Bow, and Arms Scrolls/Master Seals/Coins which help the GMs not run out of money and betters your forges.

[Sol Hiryu]

That was brought up before, and it was quickly decided that he's not really good enough for Top Tier. Or at least, he's not better than Volug when both exist.

Part 1, sure. He's nearly godly there up until the point Volug comes in, where he becomes "very good" instead of "lolrape". However, all the stuff he manages to get without having to be placed in mortal danger easily makes him one of your best units in this part.

Part 3, not so much. He's decent-ish, since he has the Beast Killer all to himself, but he does have existing durability issues and starts having it a bit harder than other units. Considering there isn't really that much treasure to get in the DB part 3 (other than the Brave Bow), his thieving utility is almost nil.

Part 4? Well, it all relies on what he can steal/find, because he sure as hell isn't going to see any combat with how subpar his stats are by this time. Granted, his combat isn't as bad as a lot of other units, but it's detrimental enough that it's easier to have him avoid combat rather than initiate it. He's great for finding items in the sand, but since it's not exclusive to him, I'm not sure how much it counts in his favor, despite the fact he has a guaranteed chance of getting them.

[Oujay]

I think that edward should deserve better cause he rocks

[Narga_Rocks]

Tier List FAQ by Vykan12. Please read and understand before posting.

I'm thinking somebody didn't read.

[Florete]

I just wanted to ask something for clarification. Assuming you guys are going to tier transferred people, shouldn't it factor in the actual difficulty of those units reaching those caps in PoR? Assuming its normal mode (you guys did say that, right? Or was I imagining it?), a core team of around ten units should be able to reach 20/20 and cap.

This also brings up the point of a unit's chance to cap their stats. Are you assuming averages for them, or using favorable chances for them to cap those stats? If so, pretty much all of the GMs would probably rise, and more of the late-game PoR units wouldn't really change. This is the one thing that I feel that you can't really compare fairly; obviously, it's a no-brainer to get a Transfer!Ike and rape the game with him, but it's quite another when it's someone like Haar, whose chances of getting a good transfer are pretty low.

I propose that the transfer debate topic be revived and the whole thing looked at more in depth, because it's obvious that other units are going to get transfers more easily than others will.

You bring up a good point. Simply to stop unnecessary arguments, I'd like to have it clearly defined which stats get transferred on which characters sooner rather than later. We'll need the other topic for this.

Also, on the idea of Fixed mode transfers: I've never played Fixed mode in PoR, so I wouldn't know how it works, but is it possible to get a list of the maximum number of (preferably helpful) stats a character can potentially cap in Fixed mode? If so, that would be nice because we can eliminate the chance part of things, but my gut feeling tells me that would be some very tedious work.

[Jaybee]

Maybe you could have 2 versions of the character on the tier list, 1 with transfers and 1 without? Sorry if that's what you already had in mind, RF.

[Sol Hiryu]

It will probably end up with another list with "combined" transfers and vanilla characters, because there will be several issues within a transfer list because of new things that will pop up. Such as "if this unit gets a transfer, it can free up a resource they usually take..." and so on. Of course, people will have to argue about how difficult or not it will be for them to cap their stats in PoR, because transfers will tend to favor those who come early game and are low-leveled, allowing band/ward usage. (That is to say, pretty much nearly all the GMs)

Again, all transfers aren't going to be made equal, far from it, so expect people like Jill and Zihark with transfers to rise, as well as nearly all the GMs.

[Florete]

Maybe you could have 2 versions of the character on the tier list, 1 with transfers and 1 without? Sorry if that's what you already had in mind, RF.

That's exactly what we're trying to determine. (That is, not if we should place him, but the criteria with which they are being placed)

Such as "if this unit gets a transfer, it can free up a resource they usually take..." and so on.

I would probably just call that an advantage for that specific unit (the one who got the transfer), though the only occasion I can think of is Titania not taking a Speedwing from Haar, and even that really only matters if we only got one of the two available Wings to the GM's, and even still it's rather shaky because other units can make good use of it.

Basically, transfers themselves are like stat boosters, and I don't think anyone is assumed to get a stat booster on this list as it is. Those who might be (like Janaff) are probably the ones that can't get the necessary transfer anyway.

Of course, people will have to argue about how difficult or not it will be for them to cap their stats in PoR, because transfers will tend to favor those who come early game and are low-leveled, allowing band/ward usage. (That is to say, pretty much nearly all the GMs)

That's why I want to decide what stats get transferred on which characters early on so we don't have to have constant debates about it.

Again, all transfers aren't going to be made equal, far from it, so expect people like Jill and Zihark with transfers to rise, as well as nearly all the GMs.

I do. It's kinda the point of the discussion.

[Jaybee]

So would there be a cut-off percentage where the person gets the transfer or not? Also, wouldn't the bands issue cause a problem?

[Ether]

One thing for transfers.Can we assume the use of Bryce` speedwing.I wouldn`t suggest it normally,but it comes in the final chapter,so it`s not really helping to complete the game,while someone like Jill with one speed band usage caps speed on average with it factored in.(this also frees her up for a str band,which means she now caps str on average as well,instead of having to choose between the two)This transfer also happens to be a godsend for Jill.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Ether

[Florete]

One thing for transfers.Can we assume the use of Bryce` speedwing.I wouldn`t suggest it normally,but it comes in the final chapter,so it`s not really helping to complete the game,while someone like Jill with one speed band usage caps speed on average with it factored in.(this also frees her up for a str band,which means she now caps str on average as well,instead of having to choose between the two)This transfer also happens to be a godsend for Jill.

I don't see why we wouldn't. We have to finish that chapter to beat PoR and therefore transfer a file, so there's really no reason to not assume use of it.

[Interceptor]

I just wanted to ask something for clarification. Assuming you guys are going to tier transferred people, shouldn't it factor in the actual difficulty of those units reaching those caps in PoR? Assuming its normal mode (you guys did say that, right? Or was I imagining it?), a core team of around ten units should be able to reach 20/20 and cap.

It's really easy to get a team of about 5-6 fighters and unlimited mages to 20/20 in PoR HM, because of staves and BEXP. I don't have a figure for an Easy Mode transfer, but a quick glance at the EXP calculations and BEXP numbers suggest to me that it'd be stupidly easy in that mode.

You bring up a good point. Simply to stop unnecessary arguments, I'd like to have it clearly defined which stats get transferred on which characters sooner rather than later. We'll need the other topic for this.

Also, on the idea of Fixed mode transfers: I've never played Fixed mode in PoR, so I wouldn't know how it works, but is it possible to get a list of the maximum number of (preferably helpful) stats a character can potentially cap in Fixed mode? If so, that would be nice because we can eliminate the chance part of things, but my gut feeling tells me that would be some very tedious work.

It's tedious, but it's doable.

If you take the lazy average stats and add the starting growth points, you're about 90% of the way there. All that's left at that point is taking bands into account (# of levels * band bonus), the possibility of a stat booster, and any weapon modifications. Weapon mods are usually not an issue, but may push someone over the edge if they are close. For example, Nephenee with a +STR band will cap STR guaranteed if she uses Steel for most of her career. Class mods are impossible to adjudicate, so I suggest ignoring them.

Just throwing this out there, it's not like Random mode is any better. With that mode you can't use the calculated averages, because they don't take bands or boosters into account, so you have to do some math with the "real averages" found on other sites. Also, guaranteed that someone will bring up reset abuse in base.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Interceptor

[grandjackal]

Interceptor, the problem with using Easy mode is that it causes the transfer to freeze the game for RD, because there was no easy mode in the original version. Basically, it glitches up, so no Easy transfer, as awesome as that would be.

As a note, I concede on Soren, as I figured he would be too expensive, and I was right.

As for transfers, it's a weird thought. Does this mean Titania no longer needs a speedwing (since one can just say she doesn't need it, just a transfer. Lol, transfusion)? It frees one up for Haar, who is now garunteed to have it more or less. However, what of the second one? Does it stay with the DB? Does Soren get it? Kyza? With a transfer, would Soren even need it either?

I think we should first systematically find out who gets what from a transfer, rank them accordingly, and work our way from there.

Lol, Ike turns on the god mode cheat.

I could make a list of how much people improve if you wish.

-Insane Improvement-

Nephenee-Might require an energy drop, but not getting weighed down by great steel AND 2 more Skill and Speed? Fuck Mia Lite, give me a Nephenee!

Marcia-+2 Str, Skill and Speed. Uhhh, yes.

Keiran-KW would be needed, but a plus in Str and Speed, skill if you're lucky. If you can nab him 4 levels before the GM, he could be crowned for 25 AS, which I believe is usable.

Tanith-She only gets speed, might get skill or strength if you slapped a specific band then a stat booster on them. Let's assume Str. Insta-crown, 27 AS with basically every other stat unchanged from her 20 average. Basically she went from not doubling to doubling. Time to use that earth affinity.

Makalov-Doubling basically whatever Keiran and Geoff were, +2 Str, possibly defense if you slapped a draco on him. With that, he basically is Keiran with better growths, caps, affinity, and leveling speed.

Soren-Comes in with skill auto-capped, magic damn close to it, and also his resistance capped. He could get a speed boost if you gave him a band and slapped a wing on him. He still meh at first, but now he can be slowplayed to greater effect+he becomes one of those Wing+Crown units.

Calill-She gets all her boosts from Largo. Largo might need the speed band and a speed wing for this, but...+5 HP, 2 Skill and Speed. I'd say it's worth it for her.

Rolf-Basically give him a speed band and he has 21 Speed, all the closer to doubling. He will surpass Shinon far sooner I suppose.

Boyd-+5 HP for durability is supremely welcome, nd so is +2 Str. However, after 3 levels the main thing is that he can be slowplayed now. Str, Def, and a 2 way tie with Skill and Speed. He can't not improve.

Zihark-He basically is good enough that you could transfer him into the GMs and he'd be just as good as Mia generally. Maybe not as dodgy due to luck, but it's a 3rd Earth support. On top of it, it's another reason to not give a shit about the DB.

Titania-Secret Book and Knight ward gives her +2 Speed and Skill. Speed gives her 23 speed, doubling off the bat like Ike. Will max Skill at the same time as Str. A BEXP level maxes her speed. Crowning-Now no wing required, and is now usable basically through the whole game.

Giffca-Hi, BEXP me 2 levels and I can one shot Auras.

-Notable Boosts-

Geoffery-KW required and a bit of luck, but whatever helps his speed really. It's pretty much his only problem, though all this means is he returns n part 4 to be moderate.

Astrid-She can double cavs in her opening chapter now! : D I fact, you can slap an energy drop on her for a +2 Str bonus, she has Mak's offense with bows.

Brom-He'd need the KW every level, but a +2 Speed and Def boost is always welcome. You could slap a Robe on him for +5 Hp and if you got lucky with his Str, an energy drop as well. You could basically boost every important stat. If you got that insanely lucky and were willing to slap the boosts on him, he would get an incredible all around boost. Doesn't boost him to Gatrie epic, but the good news is he isn't getting doubled anymore.

Gatrie- Speaking of which, basically same case with him, except no stat boosters, though you might need to get lucky on top of KW every level. Basically you get something you could crown immediately and get what we got in a normally used Gatrie, as he'll show up maxed Str, and only 1 away from his speed cap, and now has +2 Def. In fact, 1 BEXP level, and it's nigh identical. You could slow-play him until you get the crown, but otherwise nothing's changed.

Oscar-Well he'd need a speed or a strength band, or just the stat boosters, but +2 to Str and skill is a delight to him. Either way, he'll show up with maxed skill for immediate slowplay. Either way, he's that much closer to a crowning.

Rhys-Immadite magic cap for slowplaying I guess.

Mia-Speed capped for slowplay, but really all this does is make her Mia now with higher speed numbers. If you got lucky with her STR though, a +2 there.

Jill-An energy drop required, but +2 Str is always nice for her. 2 more speed with steel off the bat, no longer weighed down by a handy. Surprising she doesn't get realistically close enough to other caps for a boost.

Haar-Yup, he does get notable boosts. An Str and HP band (Fighter?), he can get lucky with his Str. Slap a robe on him, and congratulations, you have Haar show up with HP maxed and 2 more Str putting him at 25 Str. Basically slap an energy drop on him, he maxes Str at the same time he does skill. Basically leaves Speed Def and Luck for BEXP. Start at level 15, a couple BEXP can net you enough speed to close his cap, extra luck and even resistance. Basically, a Haar that's usable for every single segment of the game, even endgame. If the Energy Drop makes you uncomfortable, a Draco does well too.

Illyana-Magic Band and a Secret Book, that's +2 Mag, Skill and Res she gets. A reason to give her the DB Secret Book and Spirit Dust? I dunno, but it helps her hit more in Part 1, and hit harder in general.

Elincia-A Skill and Speed band, she can get lucky and max Skill, though a wing is required for Speed. +2 Mag, Skill and Speed never hurt her though.

-Too Expensive, or Not Enough of a Boost-

Lethe-+2 Str, but you need to give her all 3 energy drops.

Mordecai-2 Energy Drops, maxed Str. Because Str is obviously Mordy's problem.

Danved-An energy drop, and we get +2 Str. That's it...Not really notable to him

Mist-+2 Mag, speed with a band. Yup...

Ulki-2 Energy Drops, +2 Str. 2 Robes, +5 HP. Hilariously enough with the +5 HP, 2 BEXP levels would max his HP.

Janaff-Same deal as Ulki, though get rid of the energy drops.

Lucia-A skill band can max her Skill, a Wing for speed. Basically with the BEXP dump she needs, she'd become a pretty uber swordmaster. However, you still need to BEXP her.

Tormod-With a speed band and a wing, you could give him +2 Speed...Suppose then he wouldn't be doubled as much in part 4. He still sucks then though anyways.

Shinon-You could give him a secret book, if you feel like slowplaying him...If you get lucky and wing him, he shows up in RD with maxed skill and speed. Leaves HP, Str and Def. 2 levels, HP is maxed, leaved Str, Luck and Def.

Stefan-He does get great boosts, but...A tad late, don't ya think? He went I guess from usable to vaguely good.

Volke-Same

-No Boosts-

Taur-Basically no way in hell.

Bastian-Well with a secret book if you got lucky with skill, but seriously. Why the fuck you care to boost Bastian's Skill for? That's like the last thing that's wrong with him.

Ranulf-You'd need to feed him all 3 energy drops. I don't even think there are 3 energy drops in RD.

Muarim-It's impossible even with stat boosters.

Sothe-He grows stats, and everything is worse than his RD bases to the point that even stat boosters don't help. You'd need to seriously drug him up.

Nasir-Dur

Ena-Dur

Tibarn-You went a long way and used a few energy drops to max the strength of a dude who's one-rounding everything anyways.

Naesala-Again, impossible.

Edited October 5, 2009 by France

[Interceptor]

Interceptor, the problem with using Easy mode is that it causes the transfer to freeze the game for RD, because there was no easy mode in the original version. Basically, it glitches up, so no Easy transfer, as awesome as that would be.

This is a non-issue in my opinion. Newer versions of the disc have fixed the glitching problem, and I'd say it's fair to argue that the glitch should not be considered, since we can still discuss what would happen if the transfer worked properly.

[Narga_Rocks]

You bring up a good point. Simply to stop unnecessary arguments, I'd like to have it clearly defined which stats get transferred on which characters sooner rather than later. We'll need the other topic for this.

Also, on the idea of Fixed mode transfers: I've never played Fixed mode in PoR, so I wouldn't know how it works, but is it possible to get a list of the maximum number of (preferably helpful) stats a character can potentially cap in Fixed mode? If so, that would be nice because we can eliminate the chance part of things, but my gut feeling tells me that would be some very tedious work.

It's tedious, but it's doable.

If you take the lazy average stats and add the starting growth points, you're about 90% of the way there. All that's left at that point is taking bands into account (# of levels * band bonus), the possibility of a stat booster, and any weapon modifications. Weapon mods are usually not an issue, but may push someone over the edge if they are close. For example, Nephenee with a +STR band will cap STR guaranteed if she uses Steel for most of her career. Class mods are impossible to adjudicate, so I suggest ignoring them.

Just throwing this out there, it's not like Random mode is any better. With that mode you can't use the calculated averages, because they don't take bands or boosters into account, so you have to do some math with the "real averages" found on other sites. Also, guaranteed that someone will bring up reset abuse in base.

This^. It's really easy, too. First up, like he said, use the starting growth points, add in their growths x levels remaining + any promotion bonuses, of course. Then take a look at what they need to get cap something. Ike:

Base "stats"

hp: 19.3

str: 5

mag: 1.5

skl: 6.8

spd: 7.5

lck: 6.55

def: 5.4

res: 0.3

38 levels of growth.

hp: 51.5

str: 27/26

mag: 11.1

skl: 27.8/27

spd: 30.4/28

lck: 19.85

def: 23.7/24

res: 17.2

So Ike needs a def+ band for just 6 levels, and he needs an extra 1.5 hp to get into capping distance with a robe (which I think it is reasonable to let him have, given what it does in RD.

Anyway, he's got room to give with skl and spd and str, for example he could use a -.05 skl weapon for 16 levels and still cap.

He'd need to stay away from Silver, Armourslayer, Longsword, killingedge if he wants any hope of capping hp, but using a steel weapon for 10 levels would mean he needs 20 levels with a +hp band and 16 levels with a +def band, which seems reasonable. So he can hit 53 hp and 24 def easily enough, and brave weapons are nice too since they give hp and skl and drop mag and luck, two things he won't cap anyway. Brave levels could reduce the number of steel weapon/hp band/def band levels needed. I'm going to assume that Ragnell and Regal Blade count as "everything else" and are thus zeros across the board.

And I agree we should just ignore the class alterations, since having Ike only fight:

Soldier, Halberdier, Knight, General, Lance Knight, Axe Knight, Paladin, Bandit, Berserker, Red Dragon

to boost his hp and def without costing him anything is impractical.

Also, he can basically laugh at anything that threatens his spd, since he has an extra 2.4 to give, which is 48 levels worth of minuses, and if we ignore class alterations then weapon alterations can only give -1.9 to +1.9 for him, so he's fine.

Anyway, on fixed mode, I see no reason to claim Ike has anything less than str, skl, spd, def on his transfer, and it is simple enough to get him 53 hp so he has a good argument for hp as well.

Other units may be more complicated if they need to try to maximize caps and have a harder time of it than Ike (less leeway on stuff that already caps and further away on stuff that doesn't).

Jill:

Skill is really really easy.

Str: 25.7/27

Spd: 25.45/27

31 levels to work with.

Needs: 1.3 str, 1.55 spd.

26 levels worth of str, 31 levels worth of spd.

There is no str + spd band, so that's out.

There is also no str + spd weapon, so that doesn't help.

Worst thing is: iron/steel give +str/-spd or -str/+spd.

In order to cap both without items, she'd need:

26 levels with a str band and 5 levels with a spd band and 26 levels with either slim lance, Knight Killer, Heavy Spear, Poleax, Hammer. Any levels with steel or iron complicate the equation.

If she can level up while killing:

Hawk (T/U), Bandit, Berserker, Axe Knight, Archer, Sniper, Fighter, Warrior

most of the time, that also makes life easier since those either give str or spd but don't reduce the other.

In all, I'm not sure you could say she can get both like you can say Ike can have str/skl/spd/def. It's doable, sure, but I'm not sure we can give it to her without a stat booster in PoR. However, if she only gets one I think she'd take speed. An iron forge and 17 speed would ORKO all the pegs in 1-6-1.

Also, I suspect that a matrix with the final stats of each unit after optimizing their weapon use for the best stats would need to be created to adjudicate whether or not a unit can get a stat booster in PoR to cap a stat that is 2 away (7 for hp) because we need to see just how many units are that close.

Interceptor, the problem with using Easy mode is that it causes the transfer to freeze the game for RD, because there was no easy mode in the original version. Basically, it glitches up, so no Easy transfer, as awesome as that would be.

Only gliches some people. I have an easy save on my GameCube memory card and RD doesn't glitch when I transfer my HM data. I got my game in October 2008. I'm pretty sure the glitch is supposed to happen simply if there is an easy save on your card, not just if you are transferring it specifically, so that means mine works.

As a note, I concede on Soren, as I figured he would be too expensive, and I was right.

Meh, you can still get him to 23 speed for pretty cheap for 3-11 and a crown lets him ORKO for a map, but then in 3-E he needs 26 speed and won't have it. I'm not sure doubling for 3-11 puts him over Calill. Build an argument for giving him the 3-9 speedwing (after crowning) and you have a chance at Soren > Calill (27 speed in 3-11 for Soren), but the way I see it lots of GMs at that point go from not doubling to doubling and also goes from 2RKO to ORKO and lots have more durability than Soren and can have similar 1-2 range thanks to hand axe forges. Basically, he's got no real advantages over them and they have a pretty good advantage over him.

As for transfers, it's a weird thought. Does this mean Titania no longer needs a speedwing (since one can just say she doesn't need it, just a transfer. Lol, transfusion)? It frees one up for Haar, who is now garunteed to have it more or less. However, what of the second one? Does it stay with the DB? Does Soren get it? Kyza? With a transfer, would Soren even need it either?

Soren starts with 0 growth points, so his average speed of 25.2 holds. Thus, he needs 2.8 points. With 38 levels needing 48 points, he could do it with 38 levels of a spd band and 10 levels using Bolganone/Tornado/Thoron. I think that might be less reasonable than Jill getting str + spd, but that's just my perspective.

Also, there is actually one more type of class that reduces speed than there is that raises speed, so like Jill he would have a difficult time utilizing enemies to get the speed up.

He also has:

mag: .99 + 6 + 1 + (38 x .6) = 30.79/30

skl: 0 + 8 + 2 + (38 x .55) = 30.9/28

res: .8 + 7 + 2 + (38 x .55) = 30.7/28

So he's basically going to cap skl/res, and mag he can only give up 15 -.05 levels, or 7 -.1 levels.

Class alterations probably won't stop him from getting mag, considering he'd need to level up 16 times while killing soldier, halberdier, lance knight, axe knight. And he'd have to not level at all while using A rank, S rank, or 3-10 range spells. Or at least have 16 more levels while killing those 4 types than the number of levels he gets with those 3 types of spells. So he's also going to cap magic rather easily.

At least this means that any effort he makes to focus on killing classes that boost speed doesn't hinder his mag capping chances.

As for Titania, 19 levels and 3.5 away. 11 KW levels means 3.3, so she just needs bands for an extra .2, which is 4 levels. 15 out of 19 levels equipped with something. Not sure if that's reasonable. If we don't try to cap skill or anything else, it probably makes life easier.

She needs to focus on iron axes/lances and slim lance, Knight Killer, Heavy Spear, Poleax, Hammer.

So with 8 knightward levels she's have 2.4 and be 1.1 away, needing 22 levels worth of help. So another 4 band levels to make 12 out of 19 levels equipped with something, and she'd need 18 levels using iron weapons or those other things I mentioned. Also, no killing with a hand axe/javelin/etc weapon ever. The -.05 will basically kill her chances of capping spd. Anyway, she probably needs at least 9 levels with a KW to make this reasonable, then still needs .8 so 16 levels worth. 5 levels of bands means 14 out of 19 levels equipped and 11 levels with the right weapons, or 15 levels with the right weapons and 4 levels with -.05 weapons like steel axe/lance and hand axe/javelin/short spear/etc.

Oh, and she can focus on killing spd giving enemies, but I'm not sure that is practical for anyone.

I'm thinking that Titania/Soren/Jill are about in the same boat. I'm thinking Titania isn't getting 11 KW levels, and 10 is a stretch, too. If someone disagrees, she needs 12 levels with the KW to straight up cap it and then we can ignore weapons entirely and pretend the alterations don't exist. I'm thinking she'll be at least level 6 by the time Astrid appears, so that's 12 out of 13 with just a level 6 Titania.

Lol, Ike turns on the god mode cheat.

Yeah, ORKOing a boss you used to 3RKO is a pretty cool upgrade for two stats you are virtually guaranteed to get him in a fixed mode transfer. He does stuff like that all over the place with normal enemies, too, I think. Or at least turning not doubling into doubling.

[grandjackal]

Dammit. That sucks too, because my disc happens to be one that glitches up.

Actually, a thought just occured. There is more to transfers than stats.

Bonds-Any A support in PoR results in a bond, granted you don't have a full list anyways. This means an A can result in extra crit and crit avoid. However, it brings up an interesting thought with Ike. See, he's the only one with a filled out Bond list. This means that people will not want to A with him in PoR. however, this does have some useful thoughts. Example.

-Lethe could support with Ranulf for an A, meaning the presence of Lyre, Mordy and he would give her 20 crit.

-Neph could have even more crit if she As with Calill, cause I think she already has a bond with Brom.

-Marcia and Keiran

-Zihark with Illyana. Muarim if you want him to have more crit part 1, or Brom for part 3.

-Janaff, you think he would prefer a Bond with Oscar or Shinon?

-This makes me wonder, what about Largo supports? Do they add unto Calill as well?

Then there are weapon ranks.

-Mages would love it, especially one trick pony Illyana.

-Guess you gotta consider the second weapon in PoR for cavaliers! No more axes for every paladin! Keiran chooses Swords, Oscar Bows, Astrid Lances, Mak Axes. Ti and Geoff already got theirs.

-What about Generals with their swords in PoR?

-Speaking of mages, Staff Rank?

-Rhys would love more access to more light spells.

-Does this mean even Danved now can use the Brave Lance?

Then there's the whole recruitment thing of units through DB and GM. Jill and Zi. Zihark's the only one who can pull Illyana into the DB, but there is another who can pull Zihark into the GM (Brom). So basically bring Zihark into the GM, or Illyana into the DB. Which sounds wiser? If the former, A up with either Illyana or Brom. If the latter, A with them both is necessary.

Edited October 5, 2009 by France

[Ether]

Do remember that Jill can take Bryce' speedwing(it is physically impossible for anyone to get long term use out of it),and can then focus bands into Str,as she can afford to even lose some speed on fixed mode(.45,with the speedwing)

Some other characters can use it to cap speed as well(like Geoff,etc.),but considering we can nearly guarantee her the transfer that would help her the most(well...hp,but that's kind of unreasonable).

[-Cynthia-]

I don't think Zihark can re-recruit Ilyana into the DB, the only directions are Jill/Zihark ---> GMs, you just have more options with Bonds.

[Florete]

I could make a list of how much people improve if you wish.

I...kinda already did that in the other (now deserted) topic.

So Ike needs a def+ band for just 6 levels, and he needs an extra 1.5 hp to get into capping distance with a robe (which I think it is reasonable to let him have, given what it does in RD.)

I'd call it reasonable as well. There are very few PoR characters with reasonable chances to cap HP, so I'd actually say all can be assumed for their Transfer slot.

Boyd - Caps it naturally. What a guy.

Ike - You know.

Gatrie - 20/20 average of 58, but have fun with that +1 HP transfer.

Brom - 20/20 average of 54.25, though the transfer would mainly only help with BEXP slowplaying.

Haar - --/20 average of 52.85, and given his low HP growth in this game (30%) that would help.

Sothe could use it also, but given the rest of his averages I can't say it's entirely worth it.

And that's all I can find. There are 3 people who can reasonably use it and two Robes, and since Ike gets more out of it than the other two I would assume he can get one.

Anyway, on fixed mode, I see no reason to claim Ike has anything less than str, skl, spd, def on his transfer, and it is simple enough to get him 53 hp so he has a good argument for hp as well.

I suppose there's not a good enough chance for Res as well? That would be awesome, but being 4.8 points away at 20/20 is likely too big a stretch even with stat boosters.

Also, I suspect that a matrix with the final stats of each unit after optimizing their weapon use for the best stats would need to be created to adjudicate whether or not a unit can get a stat booster in PoR to cap a stat that is 2 away (7 for hp) because we need to see just how many units are that close.

I think that was the tedious part I was thinking of earlier.

I'm thinking Titania isn't getting 11 KW levels, and 10 is a stretch, too.

Why is that? She won't have leveled all that much by the time you get the KW and she can probably get levels in the base for most of her existence. If 12 is all she needs (out of 19), I'd say she can very easily get all of them.

If someone disagrees, she needs 12 levels with the KW to straight up cap it and then we can ignore weapons entirely and pretend the alterations don't exist. I'm thinking she'll be at least level 6 by the time Astrid appears, so that's 12 out of 13 with just a level 6 Titania.

You have to remember that this is also Easy/Normal mode, so Titania will be relied upon much less and you can pad her levels much more easily.

Yeah, ORKOing a boss you used to 3RKO is a pretty cool upgrade for two stats you are virtually guaranteed to get him in a fixed mode transfer. He does stuff like that all over the place with normal enemies, too, I think. Or at least turning not doubling into doubling.

Yeah, 25 doubles a lot of stuff for quite a while that 23 doesn't.

Bonds-Any A support in PoR results in a bond, granted you don't have a full list anyways. This means an A can result in extra crit and crit avoid. However, it brings up an interesting thought with Ike. See, he's the only one with a filled out Bond list. This means that people will not want to A with him in PoR. however, this does have some useful thoughts. Example.

I can't quite remember if I ever tested it, but I once heard that you can still transfer a Bond despite Ike's full list and it just won't be listed.

However, I really can't see +5 crit (and mostly on units without innate crit) when two specific units are right next to each other is going to make any changes on the tier list. If the two are awesome support partners already it could be reasonable, but I don't know where that occurs, and none of your examples fit it either.

-This makes me wonder, what about Largo supports? Do they add unto Calill as well?

I've tested this specifically and they don't, unless you need to have a fixed game disc, because I don't even get Largo's cap bonuses on Calill (Sucks, because that would be awesome for her).

-Mages would love it, especially one trick pony Illyana.

Eh? Weapon rank bonuses only apply to what they start with, and Ilyana can already reach A Thunder very easily. She's actually the last one to benefit from this.

-Guess you gotta consider the second weapon in PoR for cavaliers! No more axes for every paladin! Keiran chooses Swords, Oscar Bows, Astrid Lances, Mak Axes. Ti and Geoff already got theirs.

-Speaking of mages, Staff Rank?

Same problem. You only get a WEXP bonus for what they start with in RD.

-What about Generals with their swords in PoR?

Brom could potentially benefit, but I don't really see the value in him using Swords even with a boosted rank. But it's worth considering.

-Rhys would love more access to more light spells.

I don't think any stronger Light spells come in time to matter.

-Does this mean even Danved now can use the Brave Lance?

S base rank says he already could.

Then there's the whole recruitment thing of units through DB and GM. Jill and Zi. Zihark's the only one who can pull Illyana into the DB, but there is another who can pull Zihark into the GM (Brom). So basically bring Zihark into the GM, or Illyana into the DB. Which sounds wiser? If the former, A up with either Illyana or Brom. If the latter, A with them both is necessary.

You can't recruit Ilyana back to the DB....

Edited October 5, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Sol Hiryu]

Correct. Ilyana or Brom can recruit Zihark into the GMs if they had an A support with him in PoR, but not the other way around. It's like how Mist can recruit Jill if they had an A, etc...

Bonds are nice, but you shouldn't center a PoR playthrough on getting several units to an A support. You have to think of the situations where you can't use them as well as you think you can.

As for the weapon ranks, I heard they transfer over even if you didn't cap out at 20/20, but...for all units that had a weapon type in PoR and don't have it when they start in RD, then they lose that rank and can't get it back. Things such as Jill's lance rank, Geoffrey's Bow rank, whatever Kieran had...oh, and Mage staff ranks too.

EDIT:

I've tested this specifically and they don't, unless you need to have a fixed game disc, because I don't even get Largo's cap bonuses on Calill (Sucks, because that would be awesome for her).

From what I've read, the bonuses don't stack for them. So if they both capped Skill, for instance, you only get +2 as opposed to +4. Calill doesn't get any Bonds from Largo's supports either.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Sol Hiryu

[Narga_Rocks]

As for the weapon ranks, I heard they transfer over even if you didn't cap out at 20/20, but...for all units that had a weapon type in PoR and don't have it when they start in RD, then they lose that rank and can't get it back. Things such as Jill's lance rank, Geoffrey's Bow rank, whatever Kieran had...oh, and Mage staff ranks too.

I can confirm both of those. I had a HM run with 8 units that hit 20/20 and they had good caps and units I liked so I used that to transfer. Astrid got a boost to bows despite me not getting her to 20/20, ditto Rolf, Zihark started PoR with a C in swords and I never used him at all and in RD he starts partway to S rather than just at A, etc.

Also, Ilyana doesn't get to start with wind/fire and when she promotes she starts at E fire/wind. Her I actually got to 20/20 and a few levels of wind I think. Same with Jill and her lances.

Also, I suspect that a matrix with the final stats of each unit after optimizing their weapon use for the best stats would need to be created to adjudicate whether or not a unit can get a stat booster in PoR to cap a stat that is 2 away (7 for hp) because we need to see just how many units are that close.

I think that was the tedious part I was thinking of earlier.

Makes sense. Anyway, I might calculate the other characters and see what they can get reasonably just with reasonable weapon restrictions and band usage. I'll probably do some, anyway.

[Florete]

EDIT:

I've tested this specifically and they don't, unless you need to have a fixed game disc, because I don't even get Largo's cap bonuses on Calill (Sucks, because that would be awesome for her).

From what I've read, the bonuses don't stack for them. So if they both capped Skill, for instance, you only get +2 as opposed to +4. Calill doesn't get any Bonds from Largo's supports either.

The site (and my game guide) says they're supposed to stack, but I didn't even get +5 HP from Largo. So unless someone with a fixed game disc gets different results, I'm assuming Calill gets nothing at all from Largo.

[grandjackal]

I just had a hilarious thought.

Transfer Tormod has a chance of capping Speed. A speed band and a wing might be needed, but he can. Brings his base to 22. I give him a DB energy drop, I could actually slowplay him while he's still with the DB. It's actually pretty possible to get him to his speed cap during part 1.

[Florete]

I just had a hilarious thought.

Transfer Tormod has a chance of capping Speed. A speed band and a wing might be needed, but he can. Brings his base to 22. I give him a DB energy drop, I could actually slowplay him while he's still with the DB. It's actually pretty possible to get him to his speed cap during part 1.

1. That Energy Drop has a steep price.

2. This won't help him in part 4 (trust me), so I don't think slightly better performance in part 1 will give him a better tier positioning.

3. He'll still be 3 points away from his Spd cap. There's no way he's capping it in part 1 when even 1 level could be considered a stretch.

On a side note for fun, a max transfer Sothe, despite how unreasonable it is, is pretty epic. Just check out his potential base stats:

HP: 40 (+5)

Mag: 15 (+11)

Str: 20 (+2)

Skl: 20

Spd: 20

Luck: 24 (up to 28 with Ashera Icons)(+9-13)

Def: 20 (+6)

Res: 15 (+6)

What does this mean? It means he's basically invincible for part 1 (Most enemies in 1-E 5+HKO him). 39 MT Tigers in 3-6 3HKO him and with any +Def support so do the 41 MT Tigers (He laughs at Cats), putting him on par with Volug until Avoid comes into play (Where they should be pretty similar even with Volug's Earth). Also, as soon as Str caps in 2 levels, Spd will be his 3rd highest growth, 25% above Mag (or, if Mag comes capped, Skl, Spd, and Luck will be all that's left), so he can easily slowplay on occasion to get his Spd up a lot faster than normal. This wouldn't suddenly make his part 4 epic, but I'm pretty sure he'd actually be somewhat reasonable as a second-hand fighter there.

Of course, the big issue is that this can only happen in Random mode with resets. :( I should throw him in Epic Tier for the hell of it.

[grandjackal]

Well good news is he's not doubled come part 4 anymore ;;>>

However, this makes me wonder of resources. Half these people who needed stat boosters don't anymore (Titania no longer needs a wing for example, Haar can just be slowplayed if we gave him a robe in PoR, Neph is basically Mia with spears now). What does this mean if we are taking transfers seriously with resources? Example.

Kyza wants a wing.

Titania wants it.

She doesn't need it, just a transfer.

Haar wants it.

He can be slowplayed with a transfer.

Soren wants it.

He REALLY can be slowplayed if we bother with a transfer for him. He'll need a crown though.

Gatrie wants it

He only wants the 3-9 one anyways.

Boyd wants it.

He can't double off the bat with it.

Perhaps a bad example and poorly thought out, but I'm just trying to get the ball rolling here.

EDIT: Red Fox, come on. Sothe's belly shirt alone should have gotten him into epic tier.

Edited October 5, 2009 by France