OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

So, to focus more on the LEA and less on playstyles, what does everyone think of

Skrimir > Muarim > Tanith

and

Lucia > Tormod > Volke > Stefan

and

Ena > Vika > Makalov

Just to throw some options out there for now where nobody moves too much to see what everyone thinks.

Also, Mist > Aran > Boyd.

Well, Mist > Boyd > Aran, but I don't want to get into Boyd v. Aran right now.

Also, back to a topic from a few pages ago, Ilyana > Nealuchi. Possibly Nasir > Ilyana > Nealuchi.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Not before you explain to me where you came up with the alternate reality that has only Sothe and Zihark as major combatants. Consider that I can clear 1-6-2 in two shakes of a puppy dog's tail by just air-dropping Tauroneo onto the boss island with Jill. Consider that 1-7 is over after a Sieze, and I can ferry Micaiah. Consider that 1-E is like 1-7, except that now I have Nailah and Beyonce Knowles.

Aside from 1-6-2, none of those end instantly just because people exist. I could be benefitting otherwise while these missions are being completed. Like in 1-7 while everyone's blitzing the capture point, others on the team could be killing guards, getting stronger while I free prisoners.

3-12 has Crownoneo and team Zihark/Volug, who require zero training. Also it has ledge-combat Sothe. Clearing 3-13 is about as difficult as falling out of bed, since all you need is a couple of idiots who get 2HKO'ed, and some ledge-filler for the gaps. Durhurr, mash End Turn ftw. You need a stupidly powerful team to KO Ike for a quicker win.

Again, I could still be benefitting from this rather than just doing nothing. If I can't speed it up, I can at least benefit where I can.

How much do you think Part 4 is going to be helped along by a couple of nimrods who are worse than most of your GM candidates and forced laguz? Even in that case, two of the best units for Part 4 (Zihark, Volug) aren't tier 1 idiots.

Fine, my tier 2 idiots could be stronger, your point?

Oh sorry, I was unaware the good GM were capable of osmosis. Of course they all can be in all routes at once.

Ranulf has 9MV, and almost ignores ledges. He will leave Ike in the dust without assistance if you are going for a speed clear.

2 things to consider.

1. You notice how vacant the landscape is aside from the top ledge?

2. You have to kill the boss and his friend anyways.

If anything, Haar would prefer Celerity than Pass.

You don't require luck, you require Pass + Savior to allow him to blast through the level without caring about 1) being hit or 2) shit getting in his way. He can spend his PP on healing himself.

Because I totally didn't take that into account. At the end of the level are enough paladins with great weapons to destroy him in a turn. Mages can cut deep into him, the thunder mages can blast him down to half health, plenty of other mages around to make him give a damn about being hit. Lowest he gets enemy hit is the 70s. All Savior does is get him killed later in the chapter.

If you can't think of a good situation where a normal combatant would benefit by being able to ignore enemy lines, you are not thinking hard enough.

Oh sweet, I got one guy to do a back attack! So impressive! *rolls eyes*

EDIT: Sounds good t me, Narga.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Kuja

[Zkirsche]

Mist > Aran > Boyd.

I can see Aran/Boyd moving down, but not Mist moving up. There is no tier gap between Rhys and Mist IMO. As for the rest, I'm fine with all proposed changes you made.

Also, anymore opinions on BK > Naesala/Tibarn and Bastian > Danved?

Edited September 23, 2009 by kirsche

[Narga_Rocks]

Mist > Aran > Boyd.

I can see Aran/Boyd moving down, but not Mist moving up. There is no tier gap between Rhys and Mist IMO. As for the rest, I'm fine with all proposed changes you made.

Also, anymore opinions on BK > Naesala/Tibarn and Bastian > Danved?

Right, forgot you brought up Bastian.

Well, I can see Mist > Boyd, since they compare directly and Boyd isn't doing anything special until late part 3, possibly part 4. Since Aran is Aran, that means Mist > Aran. I'm not sure I want either of them in mid, and it is true that the GMs are by and large better durably than the DB were, but there are a lot of maps with more enemies than the DB had, and I think Mist is no less important than Laura, the only thing is Rhys takes some utility. I still think Mist (and possibly Rhys) should be closer to Laura. Not like, right next to her or anything, but closer. Anyway, I suppose you could argue Mist stays at the top of her tier and Aran/Boyd drop below her, but I generally see Boyd as upper mid, and Aran I guess is okay too (after 1-4). Oh well.

BK > Ranulf I already say is easier to see, but I'm reluctant to see BK > Naesala/Tibarn unless more units go above Naesala/Tibarn. I haven't decided which units, though. And I'm okay with Vika > Makalov > Sigrun > Bastian > Danved, I think.

[_____]

I can't see Mist > Aran and Boyd. I just can't. In fact, I'm barely seeing Mist > Rhys, now that I look at things.

I'm not going to write up some huge rant now about it, but staves and a horse for Part 4 do not make up for huge durability and offensive leads.

[Zkirsche]

but I generally see Boyd as upper mid

Why? He has horrid defence and his offence is not enougth to make up for it either. I mean, he doesn't double and can't actually escape this nuisance for a while - if at all. I mean, get him to level 20/2 for part 4 and he has 25 AS which is enougth to double 2 generals, a sage and lolbishops. Considering he has, like, 0 bexp potential thanks to not capping any stats and speed being tied for his 4th highest growth with luck only 5% behind, I doubt this can improve much. Unless we give him a speedwing, but that's contested by Haar/Titania who are better than him with it too. Then there's Soren who can use the speed boost and even starts at a higher AS level than him at a lower level or we could prevent Mist/Rhys from getting doubled etcetera. Overall, Boyd is 2RKO'ing the entirety of the game save 4-E-1 where he can double generals with the Hammer, and 4-E-3, obviously, but I can't see him getting to upper mid because of just that. He can easily be mid tier material.

I'm reluctant to see BK > Naesala/Tibarn unless more units go above Naesala/Tibarn.

Kk, I can settle for BK > Ranulf for now, but I really think that he should move above those two.

Edited September 23, 2009 by kirsche

[Interceptor]

I was going to reply to this post whilst ignoring the sarcasm, but then I realized that I would have nothing left to respond to. C'est la vie.

Aside from 1-6-2, none of those end instantly just because people exist. I could be benefitting otherwise while these missions are being completed. Like in 1-7 while everyone's blitzing the capture point, others on the team could be killing guards, getting stronger while I free prisoners.

There is no "aside from", since a single example takes the bottom floor out of your house of cards. Minimizing turns counts in 1-6-2 results in next to no growth whatsoever for your scrub units. Compensating for the lack of a viable Dawn Brigade in Part 3 requires an Easy Button clear, which generally relies on Savior. Taking random kills in other Part 1 chapters like 1-7 won't be enough for the truly low-level units, the floor is probably Nolan.

Again, I could still be benefitting from this rather than just doing nothing. If I can't speed it up, I can at least benefit where I can.

You aren't doing "nothing", you are clearing the chapters as quickly as possible. This becomes more difficult if you're simultaneously trying to train units, with the sole exception of 3-13 (since you're just running out the clock anyway).

Fine, my tier 2 idiots could be stronger, your point?

Why are you asking me my point when I already spelled it out for you? Zihark and Volug don't need any special Part 1 traning to be worthwhile in Part 4, because they are already part of the efficient clears anyway. There's no secret message in your Alpha Bits.

Of course they all can be in all routes at once.

This might be a valid point if I had three GMs. Unfortunately I'm more likely to have half a dozen, plus the forced deployed laguz asskickers, plus the random second-string weakeners like Manith and Sigrun and Sanaki.

1. You notice how vacant the landscape is aside from the top ledge?

There are an asston of ledges on this map. Two routes to the top scales two of them, and the quick and dirty route goes over several.

2. You have to kill the boss and his friend anyways.

I'm pretty sure that if I have Haar and *insert unit* on the top platform raping the shit out of everything turns before everyone else gets there, that it'd make this job easier.

Because I totally didn't take that into account. At the end of the level are enough paladins with great weapons to destroy him in a turn. Mages can cut deep into him, the thunder mages can blast him down to half health, plenty of other mages around to make him give a damn about being hit. Lowest he gets enemy hit is the 70s. All Savior does is get him killed later in the chapter.

Oh please. Haar has 26-28 DEF at this point, meaning that the beefiest Paladin on the entire map is like 6-7HKO'ing him, and there's only one of those guys. Again, once he gets close to where he's going, out comes Ike with Ragnell, and now everyone can bend over and kiss their asses goodbye.

I'm not saying that this is the best way to approach HM, I am saying that it's not hard to show that Savior + Pass have uses outside of 1-E that make them better than your 1-E usage.

[Narga_Rocks]

but I generally see Boyd as upper mid

Why? He has horrid defence and his offence is not enougth to make up for it either. I mean, he doesn't double and can't actually escape this nuisance for a while - if at all. I mean, get him to level 20/2 for part 4 and he has 25 AS which is enougth to double 2 generals, a sage and lolbishops. Considering he has, like, 0 bexp potential thanks to not capping any stats and speed being tied for his 4th highest growth with luck only 5% behind, I doubt this can improve much. Unless we give him a speedwing, but that's contested by Haar/Titania who are better than him with it too. Then there's Soren who can use the speed boost and even starts at a higher AS level than him at a lower level or we could prevent Mist/Rhys from getting doubled etcetera. Overall, Boyd is 2RKO'ing the entirety of the game save 4-E-1 where he can double generals with the Hammer, and 4-E-3, obviously, but I can't see him getting to upper mid because of just that. He can easily be mid tier material.

You might have a point. However, he is one of the two best candidates for Oscar's support. Unfortunately, him and Titania are about even in that regard, so I can't say he's getting it. If you want to talk about why they are about even there, I'll do it, but I think with Boyd's fire and their bonds it should be obvious. Titania only has shared move and her better offence, but that just means everything attacks Oscar anyway. And he misses out on +mt. Actually that's pretty much the argument. Oh, and Boyd is a 00 00 while Titania is a 00 02. It is much easier to make Boyd x Oscar, and they are going to have to be adjacent to build support anyway, so hello bonds for both, and later when they are supporting, being within 3 means it is easier to be adjacent. Also, Oscar has canto so he can attack, move into position, and Boyd can attack with a killer axe and have a >30% chance of critting. Not amazing, but it's pretty good. Or even a critforge to maintain the 2HKO for when he doesn't crit, and he should still have around 18% after enemy luck thanks to bond. And this helps Oscar on enemy phase (mostly the +mt support, unless you give him a critforge or a killer lance, but he'll have even more mt issues with a killer weapon than Boyd has). Also, before javelins if you want to use short spears Boyd can move first then Oscar attacks with more mt and more hit. But the more hit part is not a point in Boyd's favour against Titania, just against units that lack +hit on their support type.

Anyway, he's not above Titania in that regard by enough (if at all) to warrant the assumption he gets it, but I will say he should get some credit for the option.

As for the speedwings, I'm not giving him the 1-E or 2-3 wing. There's no point (And Titania and Haar make such better use of those). 3-9's he has a case for, but so do many other units at this point. His problem is he's never head and shoulders above the rest as a candidate for the two things he needs. He's just there. He's probably tied for #1 for both things, but the Oscar support is a 2 way tie and the speedwing is at least that, if not more units.

Without those things, I guess mid tier might be reasonable.

[Zkirsche]

I don't see how an Oscar support makes him that good (I agree that they're a likely pairing), it's certainly not enougth to erase his durabiltity issues considering he has naturally low avo thanks to his low speed and "meh" luck. Besides, my main issue with him is his lack of offence thanks to not doubling enougth. Take Mordy, who's a very viable candidate for resolve for h4x offence, uber durability (see "Gatrie is ridiculous" thread for stats on that) and great move. This shoudl easily be considered a tier better, to weigh it up:

Salvageable offence (Through resolve), always h4x durability + 9 Mov vs non-salvageable offence, "meh" durabiltiy + no gauge.

Considering Mordy's a tiger, the gauge shouldn't be enougth to keep them in the same tier.

Oh, but remember the bond can be active without Boyd supporting Oscar, and it limits them both the same amount. It just limits an extra unit (like Titania), but it's not like Mia x Ike where that becomes a major issue as the pair woudl want to race off or something like that.

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't see how an Oscar support makes him that good (I agree that they're a likely pairing), it's certainly not enougth to erase his durabiltity issues considering he has naturally low avo thanks to his low speed and "meh" luck. Besides, my main issue with him is his lack of offence thanks to not doubling enougth. Take Mordy, who's a very viable candidate for resolve for h4x offence, uber durability (see "Gatrie is ridiculous" thread for stats on that) and great move. This shoudl easily be considered a tier better, to weigh it up:

Salvageable offence (Through resolve), always h4x durability + 9 Mov vs non-salvageable offence, "meh" durabiltiy + no gauge.

Considering Mordy's a tiger, the gauge shouldn't be enougth to keep them in the same tier.

Oh, but remember the bond can be active without Boyd supporting Oscar, and it limits them both the same amount. It just limits an extra unit (like Titania), but it's not like Mia x Ike where that becomes a major issue as the pair woudl want to race off or something like that.

I don't know. Int is the one that always defends Boyd's right to upper mid. I agree Mordy should have Resolve, and that's why I helped to argue him above Ranulf. Aside from the gauge difference, it is in fact the only reason. Plus I like saying "resolve dissolve", though I didn't come up with that until recently. He battles at least 2 enemies untransformed to pull this off, though. But his durability is quite insane for part 3. Anyway, 38 mt and doubling, and soon to be 40 and 41 with an eventual str proc and C support, means he's doing quite well for part 3. Once he hits 41 mt, he should be ORKOing most enemies, and even before 38 mt still ORKOs some (I think) warriors and halbs (maybe) and leaves them in range for Mist to kill if he's not KOing them himself.

It's possible that Mordy should have a tier gap. Same applies to Aran, though, so I'm glad you said you can see both moving down.

Also, I don't want to run numbers on what Boyd with an avo support does. However, even if it makes him super durable (unlikely), I agree he still has some offence issues.

But, as for durability, don't forget 80% hp growth and 50% def growth. The avo is not his only means of durability, it is merely to augment it. 50hp and 18 def by level 14. 5HKOd by 28 mt to 30 mt, 4HKOd by 31 mt to 34 mt, 3HKOd by 35 mt to 42 mt. He's decently durable on his own, and an avo support should at least make it safe to face 4 enemies from 31 to 34 or 5 enemies from 28 to 30, even if it's only safe to face 2 enemies from 35 to 42 at the avo he'll be pulling with 20/21 speed and 15 luck. Like, 70/72 before Oscar, and only 93/95 with.

As for middle tier,

The first GM from the top of mid that is there for fighting is Brom. Is a tier gap between Boyd/Aran and Brom warranted? Brom is nice in part 2 for his durability, and if you use him in part 3 he'll soon reach Gats' physical durability. Res won't be so hot, and Brom never doubles anything no matter what. I don't know, maybe same tier is justified, maybe not.

[Interceptor]

I don't know. Int is the one that always defends Boyd's right to upper mid.

I am not married to Boyd being in Upper Mid. When I was arguing that he deserved to be there, that was in the pre-Doritos phase of the tier list, which I will henceforth refer to as P.D. Mordy has recently been argued up with the use of Resolve, which wasn't seriously considered on him in the P.D. era. It's entirely possible that Boyd being a good Oscar support and 2RKO'ing fairly readily is no longer enough for him to hang with his peers in Upper Mid. Certainly he's not as good as Nephenee, for example, and there may actually be a tier of difference between those two.

[grandjackal]

There is no "aside from", since a single example takes the bottom floor out of your house of cards. Minimizing turns counts in 1-6-2 results in next to no growth whatsoever for your scrub units. Compensating for the lack of a viable Dawn Brigade in Part 3 requires an Easy Button clear, which generally relies on Savior. Taking random kills in other Part 1 chapters like 1-7 won't be enough for the truly low-level units, the floor is probably Nolan.

Yet there is a bottom floor to your house of cards as well. See, this easy button requires Savior. But if Sothe has it, Haar doesn't. There's only 1.

It is true what you say, but it's also true we can benefit where we can when we can. Sothe's great in the sense that he can equip a weaker weapn and help train them up after all. Since they can easily kill his scraps, it's not like this is slowing anything or anyone down. I'm under the opinion that people just give the higher up units kills just because they can, thus where the problem arises.

It's constantly said that this isn't Communist Emblem. Well I can see this the case, so why not capitlize if it doesn't slow us down? After all, training DB units means we don't have to give Sothe Savior meaning Haar can. After all, it doesn't really speed up part 3 fr hte DB, just makes it easier. If it stands to make GM part 3 FASTER, since training DB for part 3 makes it just as simple anyways (BK still appears, we still can crown Taur, we gt more buffoons to choose from t clog up more areas to benefit with ranged or direct combat), I say why not?

You aren't doing "nothing", you are clearing the chapters as quickly as possible. This becomes more difficult if you're simultaneously trying to train units, with the sole exception of 3-13 (since you're just running out the clock anyway).

If it doesn't slow down our turn count, I don't see what the problem is.

Why are you asking me my point when I already spelled it out for you? Zihark and Volug don't need any special Part 1 traning to be worthwhile in Part 4, because they are already part of the efficient clears anyway. There's no secret message in your Alpha Bits.

This is assuming they do nothing but kill, right? Because when they can just have their scraps killed by lesser beings and move forward regardless, I see no reason we shouldn't capitolize. Volug's a bit more due to mission use (saving Fiona, getting to Zi/Jill/Taur sooner to keep them alive, being awesome part 3 regardless, being sexy, what have you).

This might be a valid point if I had three GMs. Unfortunately I'm more likely to have half a dozen, plus the forced deployed laguz asskickers, plus the random second-string weakeners like Manith and Sigrun and Sanaki.

We got Ike, Ti, Gat, Shi, Mia,. Ike is route specific, Gat is probably slowing down by now, Shinon is amazing but is an archer, Ti is probably slowing down as well. Mia is probably your only true badass of the GMs aside from Ike and Shinon.

Also, these radom laguz ass kickers? You referring to the royals, ya? Well they are great at direct combat. Tibarn's certainly got no problems due to leadership. Crossbows are actually rare, but there's no reason to have him take care of absolutely everything. You could, but I don't see the point other than to take care of the bosses. Interesting note-A dragon and Izuka can kill Tibarn. Izuka's got around 50 hit on him, and the dragon around 30 or 40. If Tib's in a bad mood, you got a potential problem.

Naesala. Flight is great, but due to no leadership he's facing around 50s hit. 60 HP is good, but 26 defense isn't exactly spectacular. I recall people saying he has problems ffensively thanks to S strike. Again, a bad day could put him in danger.

Nailah. I believe fr Ike's route that it's basically stuffed with the best we can slam in anyways since Ike's route is the equivelent of "D whatever". Nailah's wins could be downplayed by hte fact that we got good people on the team anyways.

S basically we got 1 each route. Ike has 2 basically because he's Ike. You telling me the other 4 are able to do everything all by themselves?

There are an asston of ledges on this map. Two routes to the top scales two of them, and the quick and dirty route goes over several.

If Ranulf has an easy enough time getting t the top ledge, I fail to see the problem of a non-transformed flying guy with the same move would have.

I'm pretty sure that if I have Haar and *insert unit* on the top platform raping the shit out of everything turns before everyone else gets there, that it'd make this job easier.

You mean like Haar, Ranulf and Ike, since they could easily arrive at the same time anyways?

Oh please. Haar has 26-28 DEF at this point, meaning that the beefiest Paladin on the entire map is like 6-7HKO'ing him, and there's only one of those guys. Again, once he gets close to where he's going, out comes Ike with Ragnell, and now everyone can bend over and kiss their asses goodbye.

Do explain how Haar got 2-5 levels in this time when others at equal levels struggle to get even 1? You also seem to think there's like 2 people every 20 spaces. There are plenty of foot soldiers, plenty of mages hanging about. Also, by the time you drop Ike, it's near the tent, which very well may be too late. Also, even with Ragnell and it's defensive boosts, he has similar survivability to Haar (less HP and res, though a bit more defense, similar avoid, really I just gotta ask what level Ike's at at this time). It's like Narga said, GMs might be tough, but there's also plenty of people around.

I'm not saying that this is the best way to approach HM, I am saying that it's not hard to show that Savior + Pass have uses outside of 1-E that make them better than your 1-E usage.

Not saying I disagree, just that it might be flawed logic. I mean we give it to Sothe, Haar doesn't get it. If Haar gets it, Sothe doesn't. It doesn't make 3-6 go faster just easier, doesn't effect the rest of part 3 DB at all, barely changes the outcome of 3-4 if at all, and it's questionable in use in 3-11. 3-11 could go faster, but I'd say I'd prefer 1-E ends faster, as it's the harder chapter.

As for Boyd, I see no reason he should be so far away from Rhys.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Kuja

[Interceptor]

Yet there is a bottom floor to your house of cards as well. See, this easy button requires Savior. But if Sothe has it, Haar doesn't. There's only 1.

This is basically nonsense. My argument is that there are better uses for Savior/Pass/Skittles than what you did in 1-E. I gave examples, and two happen to be mutually exclusive. But it doesn't change my point, since both of them are individually superior to Vika Jesus or w/e you were doing.

It is true what you say, but it's also true we can benefit where we can when we can. Sothe's great in the sense that he can equip a weaker weapn and help train them up after all. Since they can easily kill his scraps, it's not like this is slowing anything or anyone down. I'm under the opinion that people just give the higher up units kills just because they can, thus where the problem arises.

It's true that Sothe can weaken something and have someone else kill it, but it's also true that sometimes this is not desirable because of positioning or freedom of movement. Also, Sothe weakening units doesn't appear to me to have anything to do with Tauroneo Airlines.

If it doesn't slow down our turn count, I don't see what the problem is.

The problem is that it does slow down the turn count. Try to feed a significant number of kills to scrub units in 3-12 without putting the brakes on.

We got Ike, Ti, Gat, Shi, Mia,. Ike is route specific, Gat is probably slowing down by now, Shinon is amazing but is an archer, Ti is probably slowing down as well. Mia is probably your only true badass of the GMs aside from Ike and Shinon.

You're forgetting who these people are up against. Sure, Gatrie is slowing down, but look at how he compares to some tier 2 shitstain from the Dawn Brigade. The bar to clear is not very high, here. Zihark has issues getting to 3HKO in certain situations, which ought to be raising some red flags.

Also, these radom laguz ass kickers? You referring to the royals, ya?

Skrimir is also pretty good when it comes to forced units, and when it comes to random laguz, I think all I have to say on that point is "Ulki and Janaff".

If Ranulf has an easy enough time getting t the top ledge, I fail to see the problem of a non-transformed flying guy with the same move would have.

When did Ike grow wings and +2 MV?

You mean like Haar, Ranulf and Ike, since they could easily arrive at the same time anyways?

Sure, let's have a three-way up there.

Do explain how Haar got 2-5 levels in this time when others at equal levels struggle to get even 1?

This is 3-11. If Haar is not nearing promotion by this point, you haven't been using him at all.

It's like Narga said, GMs might be tough, but there's also plenty of people around.

It's not going to be easy, but it's still going to be fast. Ike is near-capped at this point and doubling like a maniac. He'll miss his avoid support (or maybe he supported Haar in this scenario, who knows) but he's still like 5HKO'ed or something retardedly high like that, and Ragnell means he counters everything.

Not saying I disagree, just that it might be flawed logic. I mean we give it to Sothe, Haar doesn't get it. If Haar gets it, Sothe doesn't. It doesn't make 3-6 go faster just easier, doesn't effect the rest of part 3 DB at all, barely changes the outcome of 3-4 if at all, and it's questionable in use in 3-11. 3-11 could go faster, but I'd say I'd prefer 1-E ends faster, as it's the harder chapter.

It doesn't make 3-6 go faster, but it makes Part 1 go faster because of 3-6. It barely changes the outcome of 3-4 at all, but it's 3-4 and 3-11 and any other uses I get in Part 3 vs. one measly chapters in Part 1.

Etc.

[Narga_Rocks]

I am not married to Boyd being in Upper Mid. When I was arguing that he deserved to be there, that was in the pre-Doritos phase of the tier list, which I will henceforth refer to as P.D. Mordy has recently been argued up with the use of Resolve, which wasn't seriously considered on him in the P.D. era. It's entirely possible that Boyd being a good Oscar support and 2RKO'ing fairly readily is no longer enough for him to hang with his peers in Upper Mid. Certainly he's not as good as Nephenee, for example, and there may actually be a tier of difference between those two.

I just meant I'm not sure if I missed any reasons for why Boyd should stay in upper mid. I can be okay with Boyd and Aran in the top of mid, though I still think Mist should be above them simply for healing, and I suppose Rhys could go above Tauroneo if anyone cares. I wouldn't put Rhys above Heather, simply because I think there is more for her to do than there is for Rhys and his ORKOd self.

We got Ike, Ti, Gat, Shi, Mia,. Ike is route specific, Gat is probably slowing down by now, Shinon is amazing but is an archer, Ti is probably slowing down as well. Mia is probably your only true badass of the GMs aside from Ike and Shinon.

Also, these radom laguz ass kickers? You referring to the royals, ya? Well they are great at direct combat. Tibarn's certainly got no problems due to leadership. Crossbows are actually rare, but there's no reason to have him take care of absolutely everything. You could, but I don't see the point other than to take care of the bosses. Interesting note-A dragon and Izuka can kill Tibarn. Izuka's got around 50 hit on him, and the dragon around 30 or 40. If Tib's in a bad mood, you got a potential problem.

Naesala. Flight is great, but due to no leadership he's facing around 50s hit. 60 HP is good, but 26 defense isn't exactly spectacular. I recall people saying he has problems ffensively thanks to S strike. Again, a bad day could put him in danger.

Nailah. I believe fr Ike's route that it's basically stuffed with the best we can slam in anyways since Ike's route is the equivelent of "D whatever". Nailah's wins could be downplayed by hte fact that we got good people on the team anyways.

S basically we got 1 each route. Ike has 2 basically because he's Ike. You telling me the other 4 are able to do everything all by themselves?

I may as well make a few comments. Gatrie is nice in 4-2 and 4-5. Not sure if others have found a good use for him with Ike, but he's nice in 4-2 marching down just south of the thickets and drawing stuff. There are a fair number of enemies, and a few swordmasters with massive crit, and Gatrie just shrugs most of them off. He is still generally doing >50% damage to everything, and I simply have whatever units I'm getting ready for endgame help out. I used Ilyana and Calill on HM, though they may have had a little help from units I wasn't training. The fact that I can even use Ilyana to help clear out a fair portion of this map just goes to show either how helpful a Gatrie that no longer doubles still is, or ..shows...something. Anyway, Elincia and Tibarn go west, mostly, and I try to focus kills on Elincia with paragon to get her ready. I got a little lucky with her levels, but I think she'd have been fine with her averages. Also, Tibarn takes out the ranged sage, I think. Help from Reyson, help from Lucia (bonds, I gave her daunt, etc) and Elincia 2HKOing the swordmasters with 0 crit against thanks to daunt, 4 stars, heck I used level ~4 Astrid to help weaken with the 3-E silencer, since I still had uses leftover from the earlier silencer and let Shinon keep that one. No DB members in that group. Okay, technically Ilyana was there, but she starts part 1 at level 12 so it's easier to get her promoted without hurting me. 4-5 is simple. What does it matter if Izuka + a dragon can KO Tibarn? You have the dragonslayer..err..Pelleas to help out. As long as Izuka doesn't summon anything with 12 AS, you are fine. I saw just one 12 AS dragon the entire chapter. I realize stats are a little random, even on enemies, but the probability of me seeing only one 12 AS dragon if there are supposed to be 4 or 5 normally is really really low. Anyway, I suppose you could just crown him and he'll double them all. Anyway, Elincia clears out ravens and cats with Amiti, and if she levels enough during the chapter then hawks too, and tigers thanks to quadding go down, though her durability against them is questionable so adept + cancel + stun help out on player phase. 4-2 and 4-5 can basically be taken care of with

Elincia + Tibarn + Gatrie + nubs.

It doesn't much matter if those nubs came from the GMs or from the CRKs or from the DB. Ilyana didn't promote until the mid-point of the chapter, Calill needed bexp and a crown to promote in 4-5 (I think), Astrid was maybe two levels (at most) off base and Lucia was base. Pelleas was base. Oh, Ulki + Janaff at base with no skills helped as well, though more in 4-5 than 4-2. That's A strike and no tear.

4-1 was a Mia x Ike duo in the south and west, the northwest was some nubs, the east was mostly Nailah with a little help from Heather and Mist, and the southeast was a storm of all the units finished with their areas, so like Oscar (near base level and staying away from enemy range) B supporting Titania (20/1 or something) and Mist/Volug/Nailah. Not sure what Haar was doing, but he helped too.

4-4 was the Mia x Ike show, though since it was transfer Ike he doubled swordmasters and it's really not fair to the enemies to have a transfer Ike in this game. Still, they took care of the middle, the part above the middle stairs, the west. Really, they alone took out 40% of the map or more. Shinon + Heather + Mist + Rafiel took the southeast. Honestly, Heather and Mist! If they can do it... Then a little help from Nailah and Volug for the first 3 reinforcements, then those two climb the stairs and Heather to start with the rooms, Muarim and Vika going around with keys, Haar taking 3 quick naps while Rhys wakes him up. Shinon and a laguz storm to clear out the 6 reinforcements that appear over two turns (7 and 8). No DB members.

4-P had DB members. Jill + Nolan (I decided I wouldn't let some desert decide for me where to send units) + Laura + Marcia + forced + Tanith. Oh, Leo and Meg in first tier and a B support for fun. Leo plucks away with ~29 mt thanks to support and Lugh. I think there were some enemies that could be killed by my level ~12 Leo and Sanaki. Anyway, sure, I had Jill at level ~20/12 and Nolan at level ~20/15 and Micaiah and Laura around 20/5 or something, but I think I would have been faster just letting Skrimir and Naesala do most of the work (went over on 4-P). That's what I did in 4-3, anyway (finished on time), and Jill and Nolan were now 20/20/1. Well, Nolan got airdropped a couple of times in front of enemies, but I don't think it couldn't be done without them. If you train Marcia a little, she's actually quite proficient at dragonmaster killing with a wyrmslayer. Poor Nealuchi must be really tired, though, all the naps he took. Good thing Laura was there with restore so he could take a second nap. Oh, and base Lethe shoved a couple of things. Didn't deploy Leo or Meg this map. They hit A from 4-P, though.

And that's without the option of Resolve Mordy (I never trained him). He's still a nigh invincible death machine in 4-P, and assuming a reasonable number of levels he'll be death incarnate in 4-3 as well. 30 speed doubles plenty in 4-3. And he'll have similar mt to Naesala. Level 23 Mordy has 16 str so assuming an A support and S strike he'll have 49 mt. Easily 2HKOing all the halbs and warriors.

Do explain how Haar got 2-5 levels in this time when others at equal levels struggle to get even 1? You also seem to think there's like 2 people every 20 spaces. There are plenty of foot soldiers, plenty of mages hanging about. Also, by the time you drop Ike, it's near the tent, which very well may be too late. Also, even with Ragnell and it's defensive boosts, he has similar survivability to Haar (less HP and res, though a bit more defense, similar avoid, really I just gotta ask what level Ike's at at this time). It's like Narga said, GMs might be tough, but there's also plenty of people around.

Yeah, he's talking about 3-11. You can see that with the existence of Ragnell. Ike should be level 20, and thanks to bexp 28 speed and 26 def and 50 hp. 50hp/31def. Kinda nuts. Kinda broken. The strongest enemies on the map are warriors on turn 8, with 42 mt and 135 hit. They 5HKO Ike. Ike meanwhile has ~16 luck so 87 avo without a support. So they have ~50 hit on him and 5HKO. Other enemies? Many of the paladins tink. Sages 3HKO, though, but you could just pure water Ike before Haar picks him up, I guess. I think the 7 doesn't drop if he's picked up. They now 4 or 5 HKO, and their hit averages ~60. A steel poleaxe paladin has 36 mt. That's a 10HKO. With 127 hit that means 40% listed. If the mission objective was to kill Ike without ever de-equipping Ragnell and without meeting sages and never healing him (through staves or healing items), you could give him renewal and I don't think he'd ever die. Without his support. You could give Ike saviour and have him rescue his partner and he wouldn't likely even need to stay away from sages anymore or use renewal and he could go at it. Wanna know the scary part? Saviour is only 10 capacity. Saviour + Pass on Ike. He could basically run to the exit without a care in the world. Or Celerity + Saviour. It's not running through the enemies anymore, but I'm sure there will be some turns he can go 8 or 9 squares to go faster. Not sure which would be better overall. Probably Saviour + Pass.

You're forgetting who these people are up against. Sure, Gatrie is slowing down, but look at how he compares to some tier 2 shitstain from the Dawn Brigade. The bar to clear is not very high, here. Zihark has issues getting to 3HKO in certain situations, which ought to be raising some red flags.

If you go really bare bones in the DB you can get Nolan to 20/15, but he'll probably need Tarvos hammerne'd at this point if we want him to compare to Gatrie. Still, the DB aren't going to be amazing in 4-P/1/2, but they should do okay in 4-3/4/5, as long as you don't try to train more than Jill and Nolan (and a little Micaiah and a lot of Volug doesn't hurt).

Skrimir is also pretty good when it comes to forced units, and when it comes to random laguz, I think all I have to say on that point is "Ulki and Janaff".

Yeah, I'm thinking Ulki at level 30 with tear and wrath. He probably gets spd on both bexp levels, so has 40 speed. Also, assuming no skill procs he has 17 crit. 67 crit with wrath against 20 to 22 luck enemies so say 45% crit and 40% tear. 89.11% proc rate. The chance of an enemy that Ulki 4HKOs living is quite sad. Oh, and with S strike and 28 str and A Janaff he's got 43 mt. Also, probably one luck, maybe two, above base.

So 40 x 2 + 26 + 20 + (0/15/20) + 8 (A Janaff) = 134/149/154 avo, depending on route. And Ulki is a type 2, so minimum 129/144/149 on bad bio, and never goes to worst. Even in the desert the most he faces is 30 listed (18.3% hit), aside from bowguns/crossbows/and some swordmasters that do 7 or 8 damage. Oh, and with 46 cev I don't think he's gonna be criticalled by anything short of a killer weapon. Well, wo dao in 4-E-2 on a swordmaster, but anyway. Oh, and killer weapons on enemies without a crit boost won't be able to crit him either.

Then consider what he does in the chapters in which he gets stars.

144 avo in 4-1. I'm seeing 160 on a falco, and the only thing higher is swordmaster and crossbow users. 16 hit is 5.28% true, and that's on bad bio. On good it's only 6 listed, or .78% true.

In 4-2, he's got 149 min avo.

1x Swd Gen lvl 8 (Killing Edge):

46 HP, 33 Atk, 23 AS, 153 Hit, 68 Avo, 27 Def, 18 Res, 41 Crit, 22 Ddg

2x Falcoknight lvl 7 (Silver Lance):

39 HP, 30 Atk, 25 AS, 152 Hit, 74 Avo, 19 Def, 20 Res, 12 Crit, 24 Ddg

2x Falcoknight lvl 8 (Silver Lance):

40 HP, 31 Atk, 26 As, 155 hit, 77 Avo, 19.5 Def, 21 Res, 12 Crit, 25 Ddg

1x Warrior lvl 6 (Crossbow):

47 HP, 28 Atk, 23.5 AS, 167 Hit, 65-67 Avo, 18.5 Def, 12 Res, 12 Crit, 19 Ddg

That's it. Nothing else can hit him. Well, the snipers might have > 149, but it doesn't say. So, yeah, aside from the crossbow user, max is 6 hit, and that's 1 on neutral, and 0 on good. At worst? .78% hit. At neutral? .03%. And it's a thing that only does 7 damage to 22 + 2 def Ulki. Wait, I forgot, A Janaff. 22 + 3 def Ulki. 6 damage. I should go back and subtract 1 from the earlier part I typed, but I won't. On neutral, the crossbow guy has 13 hit on Ulki, which is 3.51% true, though I wouldn't risk it if it's a OHKO, even on player phase where Ulki has a 67% chance of OHKOing and so only a 1.1583% chance of dying.

4-4's a tad worse, with 144 avo going after some enemies in the 160s, but still under 25 listed on bad bio, and under 15 on good.

4-5 is more of a pain, but it doesn't really matter because he was nearly invincible while transformed in 4-2, and in 4-5 it's easy anyway and you could give him adept instead of tear anyway and 43 mt still 2 or 3 HKOs cats/hawks/ravens, so adept gives him nearly as good a proc as wrath anyway. With full hp instead of half hp, he doesn't need to worry about getting hit once or twice in a row. Even 3 times.

Well, 3HKOd by tigers, so 3 times from them is bad, but oh well.

This is 3-11. If Haar is not nearing promotion by this point, you haven't been using him at all.

Soon as he hits 24 speed (assuming 2-3 wing), crown the dude. That def cap isn't doing him any favours. Well, if he's near a level when the next chapter starts, bexp in the base, then crown him. Anyone that wants to whine about deploying Heather in 3-7, ????? People say the chapter doesn't matter since there is no goal, and in doing one simple thing Heather does more to boost your efficiency for the next few chapters than the rest of your units could do in the entire chapter. Combined. All she needs to do is steal the 3-6 crown. 18/1 Haar with no bexp and no levels after he promotes and the 2-3 crown wing (oops) has:

52.1 hp, 29.9 str, 28 skl, 26 spd, 16.15 luck, 28 def, 12.4 res.

Now, he's not Ike with Ragnell level unstoppable. But he's close. That 36 mt unit that 10HKOd Ike is 7HKOing Haar. See how many units have >36 mt.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

I keep underestimating the GM time and time again. Jeez, why did IS see fit to make them so retardedly strong? It makes the first two parts such teases.

Just wanna say 2 things.

1. I was under the assumption we were crowning and winging him ASAP. Haar, I mean.

2. I only said the Tibarn with Izuka and dragon out of just sort of an interesting find.

Oh, and I can agree Bastian over Danved. His only bad stat is speed, and it can be fixed with BEXP as it's one of his three top growths. Danved is just...Well, he's not lopsided enough in strength for brave lance use, and he's not fast enough to Wishblade. He's too...bland.

[Narga_Rocks]

I keep underestimating the GM time and time again. Jeez, why did IS see fit to make them so retardedly strong? It makes the first two parts such teases.

Just wanna say 2 things.

1. I was under the assumption we were crowning and winging him ASAP. Haar, I mean.

2. I only said the Tibarn with Izuka and dragon out of just sort of an interesting find.

Oh, and I can agree Bastian over Danved. His only bad stat is speed, and it can be fixed with BEXP as it's one of his three top growths. Danved is just...Well, he's not lopsided enough in strength for brave lance use, and he's not fast enough to Wishblade. He's too...bland.

Well, she steals the crown in 3-7. By this time, he's had 2-P (only <40 exp though), 2-E (22 spd with 2-3 wing so doubling and ORKOing a fair portion), 3-2 (22 speed doubles most pallies), 3-3 (doubles most generals/sages), 3-4 (doubles generals/most sages), 3-5 (23 speed doubles generals and most sages/paladins, including, but not limited to, all paladin/general/sage reinforcements), 3-7 (doubles generals/sages/dragonmasters).

I think 7 levels is doable. Maybe only 6 levels. But with all the things he ORKOs... After 6 levels, he's got a 58% chance of having at least 22 speed without a wing (by level 17). So with a wing it would be 24. At level 18 he's at 67%, and at level 19 he's at 74%. Also, if you pull off capping str, skl, def, then spd is his 3rd best growth. 4th best is .2 and spd is .3. Increases the chance pretty well. He usually caps def at level 15 or 16, so bexp for str to cap earlier could happen. Even if it's just bexping once skl is capped (~level 14) then it's still going to increase str.

Anyway, I wouldn't crown him immediately in 3-7 when we steal the crown or in the 3-8 base unless he has 24 spd, because as soon as 3-10 rolls around he needs 26. As such, may as well level another time before crowning to try to pull off spd, since after crowning exp gains are slower and it'll take longer to get a level and thus another shot at 24 speed. Considering all the 22 speed paladins in 4-P and the 22 speed generals in 4-1 and 4-2, I think it's worth doing all we can to get him to 24 speed before promotion. A few chapters of having a 26 def cap isn't going to hurt in the grand scheme of things. Probably crown in the 3-10 base regardless of whether he has 24 speed or not, though, since waiting any longer might hurt and may not work.

Still, ~60% of the time that point is moot because he'll be capping speed at level 17 or 18 anyway. Which should coincide with 3-8, which is the first base after we lift the 3-6 crown.

And yeah, the GMs are stupidly strong. Gatrie without doubling helps. Titania should start doubling more things about halfway through 4-1 and again in 4-4. She's unlikely to hit 31 speed during 4-4 for most of the warriors, but halfway through should reach 30 for the halbs. In 4-1 27 speed will already be doubling the generals, levels are just for the rest. 28 for the halbs and 29 for the warriors. 4/5 levels by end of chapter so if she starts at 20/2 then around three fifths to three quarters of the way through the chapter she'll even double warriors.

Also, they have Ike, Shinon, Mia, Janaff, Ulki. Even Marcia can do something good before she gets up to level. Then there is Neph and Haar, though Haar's not likely to double much in 4-3/4/5. Resolve!Mordecai.

Sanaki leaving everything weak enough for Nolan's beard to KO, Skrimir, Naesala, Nailah, Tibarn, Elincia, Calill/Ilyana in 4-5. Pelleas and the dragons. Bastian heals with physic from 15 squares away to free up Elincia in 4-5.

I count 17 units not counting Bastian and counting Calill/Ilyana as one. 17 is more than we can use in endgame, so there is more units then we would actually be focusing kills on anyway. And herons in each chapter making it more like 20 of these guys or more.

The DB are fun. I like Jill and Nolan. Jill has a 35 speed cap and Nolan has a 35 speed cap. What's more, they both have nice luck and while Jill won't cap skill she'll be close and Nolan will, so they won't miss much. They'll also both easily cap speed, so that's good, and res, so while their caps there aren't great it helps in late 4-E. This all makes them great on auras and spirits and Nolan is superb on Deg. I think on both NM and HM he was one of the units attacking for me. Zihark I suppose is nice too but unlike Nolan and Jill, whose counterparts lack speed, Mia outperforms Zihark (especially one 5 levels lower) rather completely. At least offensively. Volug was fun in 4-1 and 4-4 with Nailah, though I suppose I could have sent him to the desert.

But they aren't needed even for quick completion of part 4. If they had enough chapters to reach 20/20/1 without hassle to start 4-P/1/2, or even 20/18, they'd be a lot better. They'd also be more worth raising. I like them enough I don't care and raise them anyway.

[Florete]

Black Knight to Upper Mid above Ranulf.

Muarim down a bit, though not being too hasty on that.

I agree with Mist (and Rhys) into Upper Mid, and Mist > Boyd and probably Aran as well. As for them going to Mid...not so sure. I always saw both as Upper Mid for previously stated reasons, but if they topped Mid, that would probably work as well.

[Narga_Rocks]

Black Knight to Upper Mid above Ranulf.

Muarim down a bit, though not being too hasty on that.

I agree with Mist (and Rhys) into Upper Mid, and Mist > Boyd and probably Aran as well. As for them going to Mid...not so sure. I always saw both as Upper Mid for previously stated reasons, but if they topped Mid, that would probably work as well.

I still don't know about Rhys vs. Heather. I guess stealing doesn't get anywhere near as much in this game as PoR, but it still gives some neat things and..well, the best stuff she can find on the ground is the rescue staff, discipline, and an olivi grass in 2-E. Also, for stealing, the secret book (to sell, I guess) and the dracoshield and the drop in 3-5 and the crown in 3-7 and a physic in 3-10 and 3-11. Aside from flourish/disarm (should get one or two good things in enough attempts over time) I can't think of much else. I'm not sure she does enough to prevent Rhys' assent, actually.

He's got physic utility where he can't reach what Mist can reach due to durability. We should have 10 uses left after 2-E, unless we waste it needlessly just to get Elincia exp she can get in 4-2 with paragon. Anyway, 10 safe heals between 3-2 and 3-10 should mitigate some of the durability difference for situations where Mist can stand next to someone and Rhys can't. And it's frequently good to have two healers since they can cover more ground and two fronts. Even in 4-4 I have Rhys with Restore.

[grandjackal]

It makes me think Zihark might be overrated. He's not needed ever really. At least Sothe's helping our DB out in the hardest parts of the game, and Volug isn't really reliant to things like specific weapons and adept to function. When Zihark shows up, they could function fine, as superbly as he performs. Then soon, the LEA show up and just gangsterstomps him. Even then, he'd be average for part 3. I don't understand why he's in high. He's just utility for a group no one cares about. He's like a "well he can do this, but we don't care to in the first place". Hell, Lucia has ways to outperform him part 4 almost instantly.

This game confuses me.

Edited September 24, 2009 by France

[Narga_Rocks]

It makes me think Zihark might be overrated. He's not needed ever really. At least Sothe's helping our DB out in the hardest parts of the game, and Volug isn't really reliant to things like specific weapons and adept to function. When Zihark shows up, they could function fine, as superbly as he performs. Then soon, the LEA show up and just gangsterstomps him. Even then, he'd be average for part 3. I don't understand why he's in high. He's just utility for a group no one cares about. He's like a "well he can do this, but we don't care to in the first place". Hell, Lucia has ways to outperform him part 4 almost instantly.

This game confuses me.

As much as I detest the overrating Zihark used to get on a regular basis, I have to say he's not as bad/needless/useless as you make him out to be. First, brave sword exists, which means an extra 10 or so enemies die. He ORKOs a lot with this thing. I ran the numbers a few pages ago, but I think even armors in 1-E died. It exists in 1-7 and we probably aren't using Ed/Meg anyway. Also, Zihark is a good part of the offence in 1-6-1, since it's a rout and Tauroneo can't be everywhere. In 1-8 that brave sword means bandits are ORKOd, I think. Also, that's good since it means Sothe isn't slowed down as much in getting to the boss so he can use a forged iron knife and beat on some mages on enemy phase. Also, there is an arms scroll to get and sell, so killing things in Sothe's way can only be good. Zihark has 7 move and can be shoved by Nolan and Aran, so that could help. In 1-E, sure, Tormod is similar as far as concrete durability goes and Zihark's avo will blow here with the C support he's likely to have. Since Tormod ORKOs with a forge and faces no counters on player phase and counters at two range with his forge in ways Zihark can't even dream of, he's better, but Zihark is still an assistant if you are trying to clear the path for Ilyana to reach the speedwing. Nailah can't be everywhere and she doesn't counter at one range either.

In 1-7, I'm sure he's helpful clearing the way for the soldiers to exit, as well. There are 4 enemies in the northwest, and you can draw 2 at a time if you go from the right, but you still have to actually kill them and many units will be opening doors (and the LEA is busy in the east).

Zihark is part of Interceptor's easy button in 3-12 with a Volug support. I think he said even B will cover it. Actually, he may have said C works. Unless you want to push Nolan down to where Elincia is, I can't imagine Nolan > Zihark despite Nolan's 1-1 and 1-4.

Then in part 4 he's not great, of course. Probably 4HKOing most things, and as such needs crits to KO and relies on a forge, since a killing edge probably 5HKOs, or worse. So Adept isn't that useful. Well, I did some numbers before, and it may have been generals he's 4 hitting, I don't remember and don't feel like running numbers again. It was a Nailah v. Zihark comparison in which she stomped all over his part 4. Anyway, he'll have a proc rate, and against some enemies it won't be insignificant, and by 4-E-1 he'll actually get to 70 (with adept), but by now a bunch of your units can grab adept and have >80% procs. Also, he's got the whole rarely hit thing going. He's still outclassed in various ways in various chapters in part 4, though, by a fair number of upper mid units even.

[Zkirsche]

@RFoF: Any thoughts on Bastian & Vika into lower mid?

Also, I think we should move Tibern/Naesala down as their availability hurts them too much, especially in the face of units such as Laura, who's very useful throughout part 1 and in the DB's part 3 thanks to her healing, and Nephenee, who's like a mini Mia in part 3.

Basically, I think they should be < Luara but > Mordy. Kind of like this:

Laura

Black Knight

Tibarn

Naesala

Mordy

As I also think the BK > those two considering his performances in 1-9, 1-E and 3-6.

Edited September 24, 2009 by kirsche

[grandjackal]

Black Knight to Upper Mid above Ranulf.

Muarim down a bit, though not being too hasty on that.

I agree with Mist (and Rhys) into Upper Mid, and Mist > Boyd and probably Aran as well. As for them going to Mid...not so sure. I always saw both as Upper Mid for previously stated reasons, but if they topped Mid, that would probably work as well.

I still don't know about Rhys vs. Heather. I guess stealing doesn't get anywhere near as much in this game as PoR, but it still gives some neat things and..well, the best stuff she can find on the ground is the rescue staff, discipline, and an olivi grass in 2-E. Also, for stealing, the secret book (to sell, I guess) and the dracoshield and the drop in 3-5 and the crown in 3-7 and a physic in 3-10 and 3-11. Aside from flourish/disarm (should get one or two good things in enough attempts over time) I can't think of much else. I'm not sure she does enough to prevent Rhys' assent, actually.

He's got physic utility where he can't reach what Mist can reach due to durability. We should have 10 uses left after 2-E, unless we waste it needlessly just to get Elincia exp she can get in 4-2 with paragon. Anyway, 10 safe heals between 3-2 and 3-10 should mitigate some of the durability difference for situations where Mist can stand next to someone and Rhys can't. And it's frequently good to have two healers since they can cover more ground and two fronts. Even in 4-4 I have Rhys with Restore.

Wouldn't this also speed up his leveling? I mean, physic gives quite a bit of exp.

Now looking at it, what puts Rhys below Mist? Is it the speed deal? Well first off, that means Mist has to gain levels, and there is a problem with that. That being that Mist needs to basically use nothing but staffs, as any weapon in her hand is utter garbage. Rhys on the other hand has magic. This not only brings range that doesn't suck (lol, any range Mist can obtain), but allows him to nab kills easier for more exp. On top of his low level gaining him plenty of exp (most enemies are quite a bit higher leveled compared to him), his staffs also have that benefit. Something like Physic or Sleep or what have you, importantly though is Physic. See, Rhys can stand a grand total of 11 spaces away to use it, Mist only 6, along with healing 10 more HP. Rhys would be putting it to far better use.

On top of this, only 4 levels with this in mind does he max Magic, of which he can be slow played from there for when he's needed to be capped off before a chapter start to gain Resistance, Luck, and HP though it is only 5% above skill and speed. However, there is another problem with Mist.

Mist has to deal with being stuck in tier 2 damn well until part 4. I can't crown her early, because her crown doesn't exist yet. She's level 1, so good goddamn luck getting her to 21 at any relevent speed. On the other hand, I could crown Rhys immediately as he hits level 10, and I'd get this.

33.8 HP, enough Str, 27 Mag, 20.45 Skill, 18.45 Speed, 25.2 Luck, 12.4 Def, 31.25 Res. 65 Hit, 10 Crit, 64 avoid. Add support depending.

Mist needs to be level 14 to see his HP, Str doesn't matter though it does mroe for her due to weapon type, needs to be level 9 tier 3 to meet magic, crit or hit doesn't matter because her offense is such balls anyways, level 7 to reach speed (either way, neither are doubled), level 14 for Luck, level 11 to tie avoid, can't have that sort of defense tier 2 without supports (and it's not like Rhys can't support Shinon), and she'll never catch up to him in resistance. Then note that due to staffs, he's still leveling at the same pace Mist would be despite being tier 3, if not still faster because again his offense doesn't suck balls in comparison.

So when does Mist actually ever get any sort of lead again? Part 4 where she gets a horse? By then, Rhys could easily be packing 15 range with Physic, I don't think we care. On top of this, there's no way in hell Mist is putting use to Rescue Staff simply because of rank, or status staffs for that matter.

Basically, she can't ever pull a realistic lead in time where he couldn't anyways, perform much better than her during that time, and when she finally DOES pull ahead not only is the game near over, but her only use would at best be during the routes which are painful to mounts I might add, because there's no way in hell I'd dream of putting Mist into endgame.

[Narga_Rocks]

@RFoF: Any thoughts on Bastian & Vika into lower mid?

Also, I think we should move Tibern/Naesala down as their availability hurts them too much, especially in the face of units such as Laura, who's very useful throughout part 1 and in the DB's part 3 thanks to her healing, and Nephenee, who's like a mini Mia in part 3.

Basically, I think they should be < Luara but > Mordy. Kind of like this:

Laura

Black Knight

Tibarn

Naesala

Mordy

As I also think the BK > those two considering his performances in 1-9, 1-E and 3-6.

I think I, for one, can agree to your suggestion with the BK, although you left out Jill and Oscar so I'm not sure what you think for their new position. However, now that Micaiah no longer has a roadblock (under your suggestion) in her way to top Elincia, we can go back to what Red Fox (I think) was commenting on once many many pages ago about the possibility of Micaiah > Elincia. I have no position on this (currently), so I'll just say I like Elincia more than Micaiah, but that's irrelevant.

edit: not sure if anyone will see this since it's an edit, but

Wouldn't this also speed up his leveling? I mean, physic gives quite a bit of exp.

10 uses gives him a grand total of 220 exp, comparedt to 120 for Mist and her mend. One entire level.

Now looking at it, what puts Rhys below Mist? Is it the speed deal? Well first off, that means Mist has to gain levels, and there is a problem with that. That being that Mist needs to basically use nothing but staffs, as any weapon in her hand is utter garbage. Rhys on the other hand has magic. This not only brings range that doesn't suck (lol, any range Mist can obtain), but allows him to nab kills easier for more exp. On top of his low level gaining him plenty of exp (most enemies are quite a bit higher leveled compared to him), his staffs also have that benefit. Something like Physic or Sleep or what have you, importantly though is Physic. See, Rhys can stand a grand total of 11 spaces away to use it, Mist only 6, along with healing 10 more HP. Rhys would be putting it to far better use.

It's the whole getting ORKOd and her not. And yes, he likely makes better use out of physic, and I can't really think of a situation in which it's better to have Mist use physic. Physic only self-heals 5 more HP than Mend, so even for self healing it might not be appropriate. However, there may be one or two times where Mist is ~18 hp away from being able to survive an attack from the strongest enemy nearby, and if she's near Rhys she could logically nab physic to heal something and get the hp (next turn) to be not OHKOd. It'll likely only mean once or twice out of ~10 times that the physic staff is used, but just saying the exp difference might not even be an entire level.

And as for getting Mist kills, there are enemies some of your units leave alive even in 3-7 that base Mist with a C support can KO with 23 mt. He can get kills a lot easier (thanks to mag facing res), except it is likely that there are many times where feeding him a kill would expose him to an enemy. Also, any sages that aren't doubled (because you used someone that doesn't double for whatever reason) are easy kills for her anyway. Basically, with her being level 1 she gets tons of exp any kill you can pull off. Even against a level 7 enemy, that should be 8 exp per hit and 29 exp per kill. Rhys is getting quite a lot as well, being level 3, so it's 7 exp per hit and 26 exp per kill. And if it was anybody else her florete would be really good. 14 mt, 1-2 range, 95 hit, 15 crit. This thing isn't Amiti-broken, but if Mist was stronger it would be fine. Anyway, neither is going to miss when you let them attack.

On top of this, only 4 levels with this in mind does he max Magic, of which he can be slow played from there for when he's needed to be capped off before a chapter start to gain Resistance, Luck, and HP though it is only 5% above skill and speed. However, there is another problem with Mist.

Slowplaying a healer basically means 1 level per. 8 mends and two fed kills assuming 26 exp a kill means 96 + 52 = 148 exp. 52 exp worth of bexp isn't cheap. You could toss in physic, but there are only 10 uses.

Another thing about physic:

You have a max of 5 going into part 4.

Elincia's in 1-E

Bargains in 3-6

steal in 3-10

steal in 3-11

Bargains in 3-13

Well, if you get lucky you can disarm a physic, but I tend to assume that while Heather will steal ~4 things between 3-2 and 3-E after another unit disarm/steals there is no way of saying precisely what she'll be stealing.

So 5 physics.

3 routes.

Laura

Micaiah

Mist

Rhys

Elincia

(+ Bastian in 4-5, or a crowned Pelleas (not recommended))

You can't get any others until 4-E.

Frankly, I don't think it's worth giving Rhys extra experience if you can help it. Sure, there are going to be times where the safe heal is preferable. Those times he very well should physic. But if you can preserve at least 3 uses for part 4, that's good, since you'll be needing them and having all 5 of those able to heal from range (4 of them because they are brittle, one because she's busy pwning elsewhere and can't be bothered to fly next to a unit) is a good thing.

So you aren't going to physic in a situation in part 3 where it isn't absolutely necessary.

Mist has to deal with being stuck in tier 2 damn well until part 4. I can't crown her early, because her crown doesn't exist yet.

so?

She's level 1, so good goddamn luck getting her to 21 at any relevent speed. On the other hand, I could crown Rhys immediately as he hits level 10, and I'd get this.

33.8 HP, enough Str, 27 Mag, 20.45 Skill, 18.45 Speed, 25.2 Luck, 12.4 Def, 31.25 Res. 65 Hit, 10 Crit, 64 avoid. Add support depending.

With what crown? I'll not complain about one of the many in 3-11. You get a new one, you get the one from 3-9, 3-9 can be completed without crowning Geoffrey and even 22 speed won't be doubling the 19 speed enemies anyway... I mean sure, there are other units nearing promotion and even Oscar won't be hurt too bad if he promotes at level 19 (provided you bexp'd from ~17.8 to 18 and ~18.8 to 19 and got str twice) and you'll have others. Also, almost any unit that wasn't doubling can now take a crown plus a wing and double just about everything in 3-11 and 3-E. But everyone is about even here as far as crown usage is concerned, and you don't lose much anyway.

But, to give him anything earlier means the 3-3 crown or the 3-6 crown. I'm not going to fly with that.

So with Rhys you could get him 4 levels and get extra luck and res in 3 levels of bexp (takes 3 chapters) and hp/spd/skl could pretty much go any way, but I'll say in those 3 bexp levels he gets one of each. Str is .25 vs. the .35 of skl and spd, so it's possible he may go and get str when you don't want it, but oh well.

7 28.6 9 25 17.4 15.4 23.4 7.8 27 2.9

8 29 9.25 25 17.75 15.75 24 8 27.75 2.9

9 29.4 9.5 25 18.1 16.1 24.6 8.2 28.5 2.9

10 29.8 9.75 25 18.45 16.45 25.2 8.4 29.25 2.9

level 7+3:

29.6 hp, 9 str, 25 mag, 18.4 skl, 16.4 spd, 26.4 luck, 7.8 def, 30 res.

So 4.8 levels happens by, say, end of 3-3.

3-4 base, 3-5 base, 3-7 base.

So to slowplay he gets those stats for 3-7. There are a fair number of 20 speed enemies here, so he desperately needs that 16.4 to turn into 17.

Then more bexping.

3-8 base, 3-10 base, 3-11 base.

10 29.8 9.75 25 18.45 16.45 25.2 8.4 29.25 2.9

11 30.2 10 25 18.8 16.8 25.8 8.6 30 2.15

12 30.6 10.25 25 19.15 17.15 26.4 8.8 30 2.15

13 31 10.5 25 19.5 17.5 27 9 30 2.15

So with res capped now luck is .6, hp is .4, skl is .35, and spd is .35.

I'll be generous and say 3 bexp levels means 3 lck, 2 hp, 2 skl, 2 spd, again ignoring the possibility of str or def.

29.6 hp, 9 str, 25 mag, 18.4 skl, 16.4 spd, 26.4 luck, 7.8 def, 30 res.

becomes

13/0 stats:

31.6 hp, 9 str, 25 mag, 20.4 skl, 18.4 spd, 29.4 luck, 7.8 def, 30 res.

13/1 stats:

35.6 hp, 13 str, 27 mag, 22.4 skl, 20.4 spd, 29.4 luck, 11.8 def, 32 res.

Now, keep in mind that until 3-11 he was losing to Mist as he normally does, and she'll be promoting in 4-1. If he's winning now, it's only for 2 chapters anyway.

And I don't see how he can get higher than level 13 if we slowplay. I simply don't see how he'll consistently get ~180 exp in a chapter in order to get a level of cexp and a somewhat cheap level of bexp. And you do not want to try to give him a crown before 3-11. Might as well give it to Soren, then, since I'm pretty sure it would be better spent there than on Rhys, forget the whole Gatrie + Haar combo for the 3-3 and 3-6 crown. I don't think those two are not used frequently enough for Rhys to get the crown often enough to matter, especially since we may just be using Soren as well.

Mist needs to be level 14 to see his HP, Str doesn't matter though it does mroe for her due to weapon type, needs to be level 9 tier 3 to meet magic, crit or hit doesn't matter because her offense is such balls anyways, level 7 to reach speed (either way, neither are doubled), level 14 for Luck, level 11 to tie avoid, can't have that sort of defense tier 2 without supports (and it's not like Rhys can't support Shinon), and she'll never catch up to him in resistance. Then note that due to staffs, he's still leveling at the same pace Mist would be despite being tier 3, if not still faster because again his offense doesn't suck balls in comparison.

Um, even though his offence trumps hers, she could probably get 1 kill for 3 of his and still get more exp. I'm fairly certain a heal staff would get him more exp than a kill. I suppose Rhys could support Shinon, but aside from shooting up ledges in 3-4 I see no time where Shinon would appreciate the hit, and so Mist is just as viable as Shinon. If not moreso, considering she'll likely be a little closer to the action and sometimes Shinon needs that +mt to KO halbs/warriors even with a silencer.

So when does Mist actually ever get any sort of lead again? Part 4 where she gets a horse? By then, Rhys could easily be packing 15 range with Physic, I don't think we care. On top of this, there's no way in hell Mist is putting use to Rescue Staff simply because of rank, or status staffs for that matter.

Basically, she can't ever pull a realistic lead in time where he couldn't anyways, perform much better than her during that time, and when she finally DOES pull ahead not only is the game near over, but her only use would at best be during the routes which are painful to mounts I might add, because there's no way in hell I'd dream of putting Mist into endgame.

Until you can show me why I'm crowning Rhys before 3-11, I see no reason to make Rhys > Mist.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

@RFoF: Any thoughts on Bastian & Vika into lower mid?

Um...A lot happened, can you point me to the original argument? I could see it happening, I just need to know why.

Also, I think we should move Tibern/Naesala down as their availability hurts them too much, especially in the face of units such as Laura, who's very useful throughout part 1 and in the DB's part 3 thanks to her healing, and Nephenee, who's like a mini Mia in part 3.

Well, I don't know. Tibarn and Naesala are quite easily the best units in their part 4 chapters. Tibarn's maps are generally considered easy, but that's because of him anyway, and Micaiah's chapters aren't that easy at all, and Naesala is especially good in the desert. Their flight also helps at times in Endgame, and they are both likely candidates for Endgame since they rock.

Not saying I can't see Laura/Nephenee > them, but those two have some problems of their own to overcome.

As I also think the BK > those two considering his performances in 1-9, 1-E and 3-6.

I could probably agree with that.

Wouldn't this also speed up his leveling? I mean, physic gives quite a bit of exp.

We're not spamming Physics. Narga just went over this, so that should cover it.

Now looking at it, what puts Rhys below Mist? Is it the speed deal? Well first off, that means Mist has to gain levels, and there is a problem with that. That being that Mist needs to basically use nothing but staffs, as any weapon in her hand is utter garbage. Rhys on the other hand has magic. This not only brings range that doesn't suck (lol, any range Mist can obtain), but allows him to nab kills easier for more exp. On top of his low level gaining him plenty of exp (most enemies are quite a bit higher leveled compared to him), his staffs also have that benefit.

Rhys will not attack very often at all. I'd guess maybe once or twice per map. The majority of what they do is healing, and that's where Mist's advantages come in:

-+1 move, and eventually 3 with Canto

-Gets to 2RKO range much faster

-superior affinity

The 2RKO part is the big one, because it means you can be much more flexible in your positioning with Mist. Say someone absolutely needs a heal or they will die, and whoever heals will be in range of an enemy. Mist can likely do the job and be fine, Rhys would need Physic. Mist is also better able to reach those that need healing.

And it's quite obvious Def > Hit. It's almost like providing an extra bit of indirect healing.

Something like Physic or Sleep or what have you, importantly though is Physic. See, Rhys can stand a grand total of 11 spaces away to use it, Mist only 6, along with healing 10 more HP. Rhys would be putting it to far better use.

More range? Better use? Not really? Mist still heals 23 with it, and only needs 1 level for 7 spaces of range. You'd be hard-pressed to find a situation where someone needs a healing and Mist w/Physic isn't enough.

Mist has to deal with being stuck in tier 2 damn well until part 4. I can't crown her early, because her crown doesn't exist yet. She's level 1, so good goddamn luck getting her to 21 at any relevent speed. On the other hand, I could crown Rhys immediately as he hits level 10, and I'd get this.

I can't confirm it, but you might be able to use a Master Crown on Mist. I've never tried it, but in the American version they changed where people couldn't level past 20, so I wouldn't be surprised if this little thing was left out as well.

because there's no way in hell I'd dream of putting Mist into endgame.

Unless you're taking Elincia, why not? Mist never becomes a great fighter, but if you can level her up enough, she'll be okay (better than Rhys). Remember that promotion gives her +5 Str, her Spd is always better, and she can equip Wyrmslayer to possibly help with Dragons. If Mist's partner is going to Endgame (since she's a great supporter and all), that person will want her as well. For secondary Endgame healers, I'd put it at Elincia > Mist > lolwhocares.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[nflchamp]

You can't Master Crown Mist.