OMG it's a tier list

[RPGslave]

Yeah, I'm thinking 12/5 Ilyana by 3-2 would be more accurate. So bascially, she can hope to be tied in level with Soren woohoo. He kind of beats her everywhere(except she has Part 1), hence why he's a tier above.

Really Ilyana vs. everyone else depends on whether we consider her Part 1 useful or not, I find that after 1-5 she isn't really helping anymore and she's just a waste of time in Part 3(then again I consider Soren a waste in Part 3 as well, so yeah).

I agree with this.

I still think the herons should be moved closer together and out of top. So, due to boredom I'll compare them.

(No, I won't give up on this until it's addressed. XD)

Rafiel vs. Reyson:

Reyson has more move, flight, and canto, but can only vigor one unit until he transforms. Reyson has more availibility (3 maps, not counting 4E), though Leanne switches with him occasionally. Reyson needs to spend his first turn using a Laguz gem in order to vigor the same amount of units Rafiel does during endgame. Before then, Reyson is having to use laguz stones, which aren't very common, and olivi grass. Rafiel's main problem is his movement, which is easily fixable with the boots or celerity or both. Any heron is likely to get both due to the fact that generals (the only others wanting such things) probably won't be making it into endgame, meaning they'll use celerity temporarily and then have it taken from them.

Rafiel's movement problem is fixable before the fight even begins, Reyson has to waste turns in order to vigor as well as Rafiel. Considering herons are used primarily for vigoring, this is a problem.

Rafiel vs. Leanne:

First of all, they both have the same movement, so Leanne only has flight and canto on Rafiel. Not only that, but Leanne only has two maps on Rafiel, also not counting 4E. So how is Rafiel better? Leanne is always stuck vigoring only two people, and they must be in specific positions, which often times means she is only vigoring one unit. Leanne has little/no chance at going to endgame due to the fact she can't vigor 4 units.

I really don't have much to say on this match-up. >_>

And finally, Reyson vs. Leanne:

Reyson has one move over her, but vigors one less unit until he transforms, which is where he gains the advantage. However, Reyson will not stay transformed and will have to either lose this advantage or spend turns grassing to keep it, during which Leanne/Rafiel are both vigoring other units. Reyson has one more map of availibility over Leanne, and has a stronger case for going to endgame. Until endgame though, Leanne will more than likely be vigoring more often than Reyson. Reyson will have to use some stones/grasses to even transform during many maps, and if he does that he is not only not vigoring someone, but Leanne is. Ultimately I think Leanne performs better up until endgame, due to naturally vigoring more than Reyson. Positioning might be a problem for Leanne, however.

Most of my argument against Reyson probably depends on how much you could get done in that first turn. I suppose Rafiel/Leanne could help you get more out of it though.

[_____]

Along to similar avoid to freaking base Zihark. He would have a mere 9 avoid lead, and she has more time to build a support with Nolan, so yeah...similar avoid to Zihark is never bad.

Now wait a second. How many people in the Dawn Brigade do you guys want to hand out a Nolan support to? It seems every time there's a comparison with someone like Zihark, Volug, Aran, Edward, or anyone else on the Dawn Brigade, they have a Nolan support. Everyone wants him, and Ilyana isn't even with the team in Part 3, so why are we giving her a Nolan support?

[grandjackal]

Along to similar avoid to freaking base Zihark. He would have a mere 9 avoid lead, and she has more time to build a support with Nolan, so yeah...similar avoid to Zihark is never bad.

Now wait a second. How many people in the Dawn Brigade do you guys want to hand out a Nolan support to? It seems every time there's a comparison with someone like Zihark, Volug, Aran, Edward, or anyone else on the Dawn Brigade, they have a Nolan support. Everyone wants him, and Ilyana isn't even with the team in Part 3, so why are we giving her a Nolan support?

Because DB Part 3 has many ways to just easy button. Sothe saviors and hides with Miccy 3-6 while BK takes care of everything (Interceptor can enlighten you), rest of the team should be strong enough anyways. It doesn't really matter.

But if you're so bothered by it, fine. She can support a defense booster. Aran, Leo, Eddie, all join early like her.

[Colonel M]

Except Ilyana disappears from the DB. See where this is going? The "easy" button isn't always being assumed.

[grandjackal]

Except Ilyana disappears from the DB. See where this is going? The "easy" button isn't always being assumed.

It's far easier and it's far more efficient and safer. It's far more assumed than doing it normally. If such things were true, DB units would be higher as they'd actually be used.

[Colonel M]

Except Ilyana disappears from the DB. See where this is going? The "easy" button isn't always being assumed.

It's far easier and it's far more efficient and safer. It's far more assumed than doing it normally. If such things were true, DB units would be higher as they'd actually be used.

Seriously, why would you 100% dismiss one of the DB units being used? Again, I'm not going to assume the easy button all the time.

[grandjackal]

Except Ilyana disappears from the DB. See where this is going? The "easy" button isn't always being assumed.

It's far easier and it's far more efficient and safer. It's far more assumed than doing it normally. If such things were true, DB units would be higher as they'd actually be used.

Seriously, why would you 100% dismiss one of the DB units being used? Again, I'm not going to assume the easy button all the time.

Because that's the case about every time.

[Colonel M]

Except Ilyana disappears from the DB. See where this is going? The "easy" button isn't always being assumed.

It's far easier and it's far more efficient and safer. It's far more assumed than doing it normally. If such things were true, DB units would be higher as they'd actually be used.

Seriously, why would you 100% dismiss one of the DB units being used? Again, I'm not going to assume the easy button all the time.

Because that's the case about every time.

No it isn't. Besides, your answer to your "DB units would be higher":

Epic (3)

3-13 Archer

Dheginsea

Zelgius

Top (4)

Reyson

Ike

Haar

Volug

High (12)

Sothe

Mia

Titania

Gatrie

Leanne

Nailah

Zihark

Janaff

Ulki

Nolan

Shinon

Rafiel

Upper Middle (12)

Elincia

Tibarn

Naesala

Micaiah

Nephenee

Laura

Jill

Oscar

Mordecai

Ranulf

Aran

Boyd

And they're pretty high up as is.

[_____]

Yeah, pretending that the Dawn Brigade doesn't exist past Part 1 is retarded.

[grandjackal]

Was this directed at me? Cause this has nothing to do with their part 1, as I don't think Illyana sealing early effects their part 1...At all.

[_____]

It is in response to your "We're just going to use the easy button and won't raise any of the Dawn Brigade!" comment.

[grandjackal]

Because clearly training the DB=giving one of them a Nolan support.

[Mekkah]

As for the argument of paragon and that whole deal...It's not like the DB's part 3 actually matters. Making someone stronger for the mercs I think would be far better. There are ways to easy-button their part 3, while GM part 3 is old fashioned elbow grease. We're gonna bring Paragon to the GM anyways, right? This allows her to put it to effective use while at the same time allowing another free slot for another skill or something to bring to the mercs. It's not like the DB are actually important for anything. Also considering that she could soon have durability, why not give her Imbue? Who can use it better?

My argument I admit is a bit shaky, but I do see cause to rise her.

So now that you're no longer hyping Aran, the DB no longer matters? ._. Plus, you haven't even shown (a reasonably leveled) Ilyana to be worth beefing for the GMs. Apparently she's having trouble being up to par with Soren, who is one of the lower bags of the GMs. All the while giving her things like Dracoshield, Resolve, the former being permanent.

"Opportunity cost" once again sums up the problem with this Ilyana attempt.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Mekkah

[grandjackal]

As for the argument of paragon and that whole deal...It's not like the DB's part 3 actually matters. Making someone stronger for the mercs I think would be far better. There are ways to easy-button their part 3, while GM part 3 is old fashioned elbow grease. We're gonna bring Paragon to the GM anyways, right? This allows her to put it to effective use while at the same time allowing another free slot for another skill or something to bring to the mercs. It's not like the DB are actually important for anything. Also considering that she could soon have durability, why not give her Imbue? Who can use it better?

My argument I admit is a bit shaky, but I do see cause to rise her.

So now that you're no longer hyping Aran, the DB no longer matters? ._. Plus, you haven't even shown (a reasonably leveled) Ilyana to be worth beefing for the GMs. Apparently she's having trouble being up to par with Soren, who is one of the lower bags of the GMs. All the while giving her things like Dracoshield, Resolve, the former being permanent.

"Opportunity cost" once again sums up the problem with this Ilyana attempt.

It was more when I was trying to argue Aran up, basically it came down to the fact that the DB part 3 is the equivelant of pointless. This list just twists and eats itself.

But either way I guess I should cool it, as I figured it was a bit shaky an argument anyways. Just figured I'd see what others thought, and I now realize that it's rather impossible to get llyana the levels she needs to be outperforming anyone important.

[_____]

Because clearly training the DB=giving one of them a Nolan support.

Two things.

One, it was giving basically all of them a Nolan support. You've used the same damn Nolan support argument for Aran and Edward.

Second, you argued that the fact that Ilyana can grab a Nolan support even though she isn't with the Dawn Brigade during Part 3 doesn't matter because Part 3 for the Dawn Brigade will only be that "easy button" strategy you suggested, and we can use this strategy because the rest of the Dawn Brigade won't be used, and won't need the experience. This is complete bullshit.

So, yeah, they are related.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Ninji

[Florete]

I still think the herons should be moved closer together and out of top. So, due to boredom I'll compare them.

(No, I won't give up on this until it's addressed. XD)

It was done in great detail before and ended with the way it is now, which is why I'm not particularly excited to go over it again.

Rafiel vs. Reyson:

Reyson has more move, flight, and canto, but can only vigor one unit until he transforms.

Laguz Stone. There are enough for all of his chapters to use one on each.

Reyson has more availibility (3 maps, not counting 4E), though Leanne switches with him occasionally.

Once, on 3-11. It's been accounted for.

Before then, Reyson is having to use laguz stones, which aren't very common, and olivi grass.

Reyson might have to use one shot of Olivi Grass during a map, and it's very unlikely to hurt efficiency.

Rafiel's main problem is his movement, which is easily fixable with the boots or celerity or both. Any heron is likely to get both due to the fact that generals (the only others wanting such things) probably won't be making it into endgame, meaning they'll use celerity temporarily and then have it taken from them.

I agree that the Herons are best suited for them, but assigning both just to fix Rafiel's problem doesn't really work. Reyson can take just 1 or even neither and allow someone else to take the other (or both) while staying at the same performance. Point is, Reyson's move is a significant advantage.

Rafiel's movement problem is fixable before the fight even begins, Reyson has to waste turns in order to vigor as well as Rafiel. Considering herons are used primarily for vigoring, this is a problem.

Not much usually even happens in the first turn for Vigoring to usually be necessary. Often times the first turn is simply setting up for the first enemy phase, then the real action happens.

So how is Rafiel better? Leanne is always stuck vigoring only two people, and they must be in specific positions, which often times means she is only vigoring one unit.

How does that connect?

2-P: Everyone has Canto. If you can't make the formation, you're simply a terrible strategist.

2-2: Nealuchi has Canto, Nephenee, Brom, and Lucia have range (Heather too, but lol at her fighting), and the maps setup just makes the formation easy as a whole.

2-E: Elincia, Haar, Nealuchi, Marcia, and the eventual CRK's all have Canto. Plus, Vigoring Elincia is the only real way to get two heals per turn, which can often be important if we aren't insta-killing Ludveck.

3-11: Well, Sigrun and Tanith are forced, and we still have plenty of Cantoers and the like.

4-P/3: This just happens to be the best route for fliers. Need I say more?

The problem with Rafiel is just the maps he's in. He has a tough time being used effectively. He can't do much in the swamp because his move gets massively hindered (even with Celerity it's fairly bad) and everyone is spread out anyway. 1-E is just too close together, so it's hard to get people in a diamond, and we have BK and Nailah who can just rape everything anyway (neither Reyson nor Leanne have units like this in their maps until part 4). Even in 4-1 it's a 3 front war with FoW and Pegasus Knights that ORKO Rafiel, so you have to extra cautious. 4-4 is kind of like 1-E in that's just all packed together too much. He's no doubt useful for all of it, which is why he's in High, but he has a more difficult time being useful than the others.

As for Ilyana and Soren...I'll add input on that later.

[grandjackal]

Because clearly training the DB=giving one of them a Nolan support.

Two things.

One, it was giving basically all of them a Nolan support. You've used the same damn Nolan support argument for Aran and Edward.

Second, you argued that the fact that Ilyana can grab a Nolan support even though she isn't with the Dawn Brigade during Part 3 doesn't matter because Part 3 for the Dawn Brigade will only be that "easy button" strategy you suggested, and we can use this strategy because the rest of the Dawn Brigade won't be used, and won't need the experience. This is complete bullshit.

So, yeah, they are related.

Because joining in 3-2 srsly isn't enough time to get another support started.

Also I used those arguments because it was constantly said when it comes to the DB, chances are we're gonna use 1 at best. Why not be someone who simply peels off them eventually to exp rich GM maps?

[_____]

Because joining in 3-2 srsly isn't enough time to get another support started.

Because not having a support in 3-6, 3-12, and 3-13 totally doesn't suck.

Also I used those arguments because it was constantly said when it comes to the DB, chances are we're gonna use 1 at best. Why not be someone who simply peels off them eventually to exp rich GM maps?

Even if we were mainly only going to be using one per PT, which I disagree with, you can't just assume it's Zihark or Jill and not consider the negatives of leaving Nolan without a support in Part 3. Light isn't even a good affinity. It's pretty one-sided to Ilyana.

[Ether]

I still don't see a tier gap between illy and Soren.Both are bad part 3,both end up getting staves around the same timeframe.The thing is,Ilyana still pulls higher def then Soren,and she still has part 1.As I said earlier

Ilyana supports Gatrie.gatrie likes being even more durable,since nothing support wise really does much better for him.Gatrie can now take provoke and guard,which isn`t a negative since no one else really wants them and gatrie isn`t begging for any other skills.

Gatrie and Ilyana run off somewhere together,and between Ily`s shade,and gatrie`s provoke/guard,she rarely has to risk dying,while not hindering your formation,since she just stay`s behind Gat,they match move,so this is easy.

Gatrie has his enemy phase,and Ilyana helps clean up.She`s being useful without hindering anyone,so she doesn`t build up negative in part 3.

If Ilyana isn`t a negative in part 3 anymore,than her part 1 > Soren.

If she isn't slowing us down in part 3,and this way,she isn't,and can still gain exp and contribute.

Durability and part 1 > a speed lead that doesn't let you double. Ilyana > Soren.

[grandjackal]

Because not having a support in 3-6, 3-12, and 3-13 totally doesn't suck.

Because Nolan is so dependent on a support for part 3, right?

Even if we were mainly only going to be using one per PT, which I disagree with, you can't just assume it's Zihark or Jill and not consider the negatives of leaving Nolan without a support in Part 3. Light isn't even a good affinity. It's pretty one-sided to Ilyana.

Last I checked, Mist would love more defense faster. Boyd would like any defense and accuracy certainly never hurt him, Gatrie would love to miss less thanks to his poor skill and luck. Hell, Soren would like to die less in a concrete fashion.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Kuja

[_____]

Because Nolan is so dependent on a support for part 3, right?

3-6.

Level 20/2 Nolan (Supportless)

w/ Tarvos: 38 HP, 19 Defense, 18 AS, 50 Avoid

Let's take the most common tiger and see how things turn out.

Tiger lvl 16

HP 50-52, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 137, Avo 39, DEF 20, RES 6, Crit 11, Ddg 7

Nolan is 2RKO'd at 96.75 True Hit. That's pretty bad.

Now, Nolan with, say, a Volug/Zihark support.

95 avoid.

The tiger still 2RKOs, but 35.70 true hit. This is an insane difference.

Is Nolan dependent on the support? No. He's still 2RKO'd.

Does it make things a hell of a lot easier for him and whoever he's supporting? No doubt.

Nolan will not be supporting Ilyana.

Last I checked, Mist would love more defense faster. Boyd would like any defense and accuracy certainly never hurt him, Gatrie would love to miss less thanks to his poor skill and luck. Hell, Soren would like to die less in a concrete fashion.

Whoa, man. Thank you for that insightful comment.

Oh wait. That had nothing to do with what I as saying.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Ninji

[RPGslave]

My main problem is with Reyson being at the top of top, so I'll focus more on that. I think that Reyson should either be at the bottom of top, or the top of high.

Let us start with Ike. Ike is forced in every chapter he's in, Ike has axes, Ike is the only person who can equip ragnell (IIRC), Ike takes very little damage, and Ike can basically solo maps. A heron's perfomance is generally dependent upon the team that they are in, which is why I won't disagree about Rafiel's map problems. Ike is dependent on no one; Ragnell, a hammer, and some healing items and he's pretty much set. Reyson has to be protected, and use gauge items in order to perform his task to the fullest. Ike will be slaughtering enemies left and right, and is ultimately one of Reyson's best options for vigoring outside of healers. Availibility is on his side as well.

Haar is a flying tank with canto and axes; that alone makes him incredible. He also has great availibility and is the only flier in the GMs for 3-3 (supply burning). The only thing he has problems with is res (like Ike), and that's not really a huge deal for him. Thunder mages are also in short supply, and are easy to kill.

Volug is clutch in part one, without him part one would be almost impossible.

Eh, I don't feel like going into too much detail right now. It's an annoying comparison to make between your best combat units and a unit that allows your units at most an extra kill/heal.

Sorry if my arguments are weak, I'm sick and really should be in bed. >_>

Edited September 20, 2009 by RPGslave

[grandjackal]

3-6.

Level 20/2 Nolan (Supportless)

w/ Tarvos: 38 HP, 19 Defense, 18 AS, 50 Avoid

Let's take the most common tiger and see how things turn out.

Tiger lvl 16

HP 50-52, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 137, Avo 39, DEF 20, RES 6, Crit 11, Ddg 7

Nolan is 2RKO'd at 96.75 True Hit. That's pretty bad.

Now, Nolan with, say, a Volug/Zihark support.

95 avoid.

The tiger still 2RKOs, but 35.70 true hit. This is an insane difference.

Is Nolan dependent on the support? No. He's still 2RKO'd.

Does it make things a hell of a lot easier for him and whoever he's supporting? No doubt.

Nolan will not be supporting Ilyana.

I could have sworn we were assuming he got an Angel Robe. There's 2 in part 1, he puts it to fine use as we can see. Would change a 2RKO to a 3RKO.

Last I checked, Mist would love more defense faster. Boyd would like any defense and accuracy certainly never hurt him, Gatrie would love to miss less thanks to his poor skill and luck. Hell, Soren would like to die less in a concrete fashion.

Whoa, man. Thank you for that insightful comment.

Oh wait. That had nothing to do with what I as saying.

You said her light affinity sucks, I'm saying it can help people. Only her and Mist are foot soldiers with defense boosting affinities for the GM for a good while. Well there's Gatrie, but that's like Rhys in FE9. All his supports are gonna be one-sided to whoever he's supporting, since he only gives a damn about the hit. Illyana gives the hit, she appreciates the defense.

[_____]

I could have sworn we were assuming he got an Angel Robe. There's 2 in part 1, he puts it to fine use as we can see. Would change a 2RKO to a 3RKO.

That's not always an option. We have Jill and Aran who both really want it, and even a guy like Edward would want one to get out of that rut of 19 base HP.

Even so, dropping and enemies' hit by 61.05 >>> letting Ilyana have a very, very limited enemy phase in Part 1.

You said her light affinity sucks, I'm saying it can help people. Only her and Mist are foot soldiers with defense boosting affinities for the GM for a good while. Well there's Gatrie, but that's like Rhys in FE9. All his supports are gonna be one-sided to whoever he's supporting, since he only gives a damn about the hit. Illyana gives the hit, she appreciates the defense.

OK?

We're talking about Nolan. I don't care whether her affinity is good for Gatrie.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Ninji

[grandjackal]

I could have sworn we were assuming he got an Angel Robe. There's 2 in part 1, he puts it to fine use as we can see. Would change a 2RKO to a 3RKO.

That's not always an option. We have Jill and Aran who both really want it, and even a guy like Edward would want one to get out of that rut of 19 base HP.

Even so, dropping and enemies' hit by 61.05 >>> letting Ilyana have a very, very limited enemy phase in Part 1.

We get 2, one a chapter after Jill joins, so it's not like she has to wait long, and I highly doubt we have to bother with many units in part 3 anyways.

But fine, we don't have to give her a Nolan support, just someone defensive to support with. I doubt Leo cares for a support in part 3, I can hardly see another use for Eddie if he doesn't get Nolan...

OK?

We're talking about Nolan. I don't care whether her affinity is good for Gatrie.

Fine, let's forget her potential bonuses for part 3 to others.