OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

Smash isn't in touch with reality, so don't be too surprised.

...

Not that I'm suggesting the early sealing or anything, but I will defend it against anything that falls under #1 in my sig.

I thought smash's thought here was pretty much in reality:

"Ilyana with a stat booster > Soren without a stat booster and thus Ilyana is better.

Can you guys stop using this retarded logic for once?"

This isn't me saying all or none of the post was in relevance to reality, but that one statement I italicized was.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Colonel M

[Interceptor]

More avoid for Zihark/Volug means less need to stick around next to Laura for heals (or fewer turns spent chugging vulneraries), which in turn means that I can just throw them into a group of enemies and watch them rape the face off of everything rather than need Ilyana to potshot something for them.

Also, resolve fuels Zihark's adept activation, and it also gives him more crit as well.

This is eminently retarded. You're giving Resolve to units that aren't getting 4HKO'ed or better, and don't wipe out enemy HIT after Resolve activates, meaning their chance to get hit with Resolve up is basically their chance to die on that hit. You don't even get anything useful enough out of it to justify the risk.

What's the best case scenario? Zihark can do something 10-15% of the time more often with a plain weapon when he already has 100% or near-enough options with alternative weapons? Volug maybe doubles something that he wouldn't ordinarily towards the end of his Part 1 career?

Did you even try this? Should I add another rhetorical question to make it a pair?

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Zihark at base level with no supports and resolve has 79 avoid. With a spd level up, his resolve spd jumps to 36 (24 + 12 rather than 23 + 11), so the avoid goes up to 83. Are you telling me the majority of enemies have 120-130 hit by 1-6? I knwo part 1 enemies are accurate, but not THAT accurate.

wtf? Were you beating chapters in 3 turns or something? I'm all for going fast, but not at a literal speed run pace.

Sorry just got off the finale for part 1 in another playthrough. It gives you such a negative idea of everyone not named nailah, burger king, and muarim. Yea his avoid is way better than what I said.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Lancelot

[Narga_Rocks]

Smash isn't in touch with reality, so don't be too surprised.

...

Not that I'm suggesting the early sealing or anything, but I will defend it against anything that falls under #1 in my sig.

I thought smash's thought here was pretty much in reality:

"Ilyana with a stat booster > Soren without a stat booster and thus Ilyana is better.

Can you guys stop using this retarded logic for once?"

This isn't me saying all or none of the post was in relevance to reality, but that one statement I italicized was.

Well, I don't buy giving Ilyana a stat booster. But if she was the best candidate for something, and Soren was a horrid candidate for getting anything else, then comparing Ilyana with a booster and Soren without one is not retarded in the slightest. It's simply a proper application of opportunity cost. If Ilyana's cost was negligible, and Soren's cost was high, then there's no point in comparing Ilyana without to Soren without, or Ilyana with to Soren with, because both options are simply not good options for a playthrough. It's like comparing Gatrie with a crown to most units. You give him a crown, but you don't have to give them anything. If they have a low opportunity cost and high gains from a particular item(s)/skill(s), then go ahead with the stuff. If they have a high cost for the item, it's not on the same planet as Gatrie's crown, so being forced to give the other unit something is stupid. This is an application of smash's idea that all "favouritism" (we should really stop calling it that) is created equal.

Sure, in this case, he's probably right that we shouldn't give a draco/robe to Ilyana and compare her to Soren with nothing, but the way he arrived at that conclusion is questionable.

And my comment about him not being in touch with reality is his argument about resolve, not his denial of giving Ilyana a shield/robe.

[Interceptor]

wtf? Were you beating chapters in 3 turns or something? I'm all for going fast, but not at a literal speed run pace.

If faster is better than slower for tiering purposes, what is the relevance of your personal feelings regarding speed runs? Did you get confused and think that this was your character ranking thread?

[Colonel M]

And my comment about him not being in touch with reality is his argument about resolve, not his denial of giving Ilyana a shield/robe.

Alright. Just making sure you weren't nailing the entire comment. I also disagree with the "unit A getting stat booster > unit B not getting stat booster", but that's just me.

Oh, definitely disagree with Ilyana rising.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Colonel M

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

The way I see it, Ilyana is effectively getting a free stat booster which gives +2 HP, +3 str, +1 mag, +1 skl, +1 spd, + 3 def, +1 res, +1 mov, more con, and more capacity.

The HP and def doesn't make enough of a difference to warrant a tier jump and the gains she most wants are only something she could've gotten on a good level up.

Edited September 21, 2009 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

The way I see it, Ilyana is effectively getting a free stat booster which gives +2 HP, +3 str, +1 mag, +1 skl, +1 spd, + 3 def, +1 res, +1 mov, more con, and more capacity.

The HP and def doesn't make enough of a difference to warrant a tier jump and the gains she most wants are only something she could've gotten on a good level up.

The key is she can now wield resolve/wrath for the rest of part 1. The +1 speed is enough to give her 14 speed at base level which is all she needs to double consistently the rest of part 1 if she gets resolve at two range. Resolve takes that 14 speed and gives us 21 AS and fixes her hit rates. Considering she is actually fairly useful on 1-3 and 1-4 she can easily get up 3 level's and we can give her some bexp before promoting her in the base before 1-5 just to get her mag as high as possible.

Anyway I agree ilyana's part 3 suck cancel's out her part 1 win.

[grandjackal]

And that's suddenly going to get her 5 levels when even Sothe and Zihark who beat her in like everything can't do that? Get realistic please.

I recall people saying it's possible with Paragon. Did ya forget about that?

She has to have it equipped anyways for when she leaves. Might as well put it to use.

Anyone, since Ilyana can't equip it.

Since apparently she does not have Paragon in your line of thinking, why not?

She won't even double all of them. 14 AS doubles only half of 1-4's Tigers.

Better than none.

Wtf.

15.2 Spd. Wanna know what doubles 15 AS? A few enemies in 3-2, like half the enemies in 3-3 (or more probably). Even if she gets 16 by 3-4, 20 AS enemies start showing up, since we know that Lethe and Oscar's 24 AS is rather borderline on doubling. And this is overleveled for Ilyana.

A 9 Res gap. 9 fucking Resistance. Ilyana gets 2HKOd by Magic enemies. Want proof? 12/5 Ilyana has 26 HP/12 Res, and 3-2 Wind/Thunder Sages have 25-27 atk. All are 2HKO. And Thunder Sages have ~10-11 crit. That sucks ass.

5.6 Skl and 3.4 Luck is something like a 15 Hit lead itself. I'd mention crits, but Ilyana is already paper.

Ilyana is fucking terrible. Overleveled Ilyana is fucking terrible.

Yes, the legions of mages with speed Soren can double exclusively are all the enemies. Nevermind that combating them with other magic is still utterly retarded to begin with. Because we now Soren's a speed demon doubling those 20 AS with his not 24 AS.

Seriously, Illyana having more access to durability boosting equipment is better than just doing 7 more damage.

Here's for quoting smash:

Ilyana with a stat booster > Soren without a stat booster and thus Ilyana is better.

Can you guys stop using this retarded logic for once?

Ilyana has a significant opportunity cost no matter how you try to pull it, and you're not even giving Soren a damn thing, not even levels yet. We've been comparing overleveled and babied Ilyana to base Soren and she's still losing. How is that better?

Nevermind I've allocated proper stat-ups to the only ones who don't suck with them, but apparently stat boosters have no place in this tier list. No sir, not at all. Not at all, not tolerated in the smallest bit. It's inexcusable.

Oh, and there's a Robe in 3-1. Yay for Soren.

More like yay for Neph/Mia

This is where it's a problem. Part 1 has 3 durability boosters and Illyana's a perfectly viable cantidate for at least 1 because for most it's either overkill, or the others have 2 other options to chose from. Soren's only got 1, and CLEARLY better people who would love it just as much.

Soren can be okay in part 4 (not good, but not too bad), Ilyana is pure shit. It's like "What if we had Rafiel use Magic Cards?"

Because an existing durability lead is shattered by single digits worth of damage...

Both are backliners, Soren gives him his offense, Ilyana just gives superfluous bonuses. Advantage Soren no matter how you look at it.

Him supporting Shinon then destroys the entire point of his defensive and avoid boosts. Someone who's defense is actually put into play would prefer the defensive boosts. You're wasting an opportunity for others.

Boyd can get his Def from others though, if that's how you want to go. Wtf is this "Shinon wants someone with him but Boyd just wants Def" shit? Unless you were going for BoydxShinon, which is pretty stupid considering both have better options.

Boyd having +1 ATK is better than having similar boosts, but avoid thrown in?

How is this supposed to help Ilyana?

I'm implying Illyana is putting someone's support to better use.

When did I say Soren was doubling? Oh, and with some BEXP and a Master Crown (you gave it to Ilyana after all), 25 AS actually does double some stuff. But others can use the Crown so much better, like Titania, Gatrie, Haar, hell, anyone who nears their level cap would use it better than Ilyana.

So now I gotta use BEXP to make Soren have wins, nevermind this is 5 levels worth, IF they proxy into speed since his highest growths since capping is HP, Mag and a TIE with speed and Luck, so it might be even more?

But fine, if both get neither, Illyana's part 1>Him doing 7 more damage part 3.

Uh, no, he didn't. And that's the entire damn point.

Does it stop the fact he's getting offense this way anyways?

Shinon's enemy phase.

Because only Soren can improve the might of crossbows, since he's a brilliant engineer.

Wonder if he plays TF2, since he's such a great strategist and seems to know everything about maps.

Thank you for proving my point that Shinon doesn't care about who he supports as long as they give offense. Boyd could use the defense, Mia could use the everything.

Thank you for not countering my point that Soren is a better supporter than Ilyana.

Does it matter for either of them when it's that ignorable?

It just means Ilyana's inferior durability gets magnified.

Lol, okay, just toss more shit to Ilyana. The map isn't covered in cover tiles, you know.

Becuase originally it wasn't just for lulz, I was being so srs. Chilllllll~

See, I can do the same with Soren. Tier 2 BEXP'd 20/11 Soren with a +Def support, Kurth, and a cover tile will take ~22 damage to something like 46 HP, and he didn't even take a stat booster to do it.

It's his worst growth, you would have to pump a crapload into him.

He also has better Res for White Dragons.

Both laugh at them anyways.

[Florete]

I recall people saying it's possible with Paragon. Did ya forget about that?

She has to have it equipped anyways for when she leaves. Might as well put it to use.

Why do we automatically assume it's going to the Mercenaries? I'll admit there are positives to it, but negatives as well, since the Mercenaries generally don't need the leveling as much and get two of them by 3-11 anyway.

But one map of Paragon won't get her to level 5 anyway. She's still locked to player phase most of the time.

Since apparently she does not have Paragon in your line of thinking, why not?

Imbue

Each turn, user recovers HP proportional to their Magic stat

Always

Magic users excluded

15

I don't know, probably because she literally cannot equip it.

Better than none.

You point? She's not as good with an early sealing as you originally said she was. She's just getting worse.

Wtf.

15.2 Spd. Wanna know what doubles 15 AS? A few enemies in 3-2, like half the enemies in 3-3 (or more probably). Even if she gets 16 by 3-4, 20 AS enemies start showing up, since we know that Lethe and Oscar's 24 AS is rather borderline on doubling. And this is overleveled for Ilyana.

A 9 Res gap. 9 fucking Resistance. Ilyana gets 2HKOd by Magic enemies. Want proof? 12/5 Ilyana has 26 HP/12 Res, and 3-2 Wind/Thunder Sages have 25-27 atk. All are 2HKO. And Thunder Sages have ~10-11 crit. That sucks ass.

5.6 Skl and 3.4 Luck is something like a 15 Hit lead itself. I'd mention crits, but Ilyana is already paper.

Ilyana is fucking terrible. Overleveled Ilyana is fucking terrible.

Yes, the legions of mages with speed Soren can double exclusively are all the enemies. Nevermind that combating them with other magic is still utterly retarded to begin with. Because we now Soren's a speed demon doubling those 20 AS with his not 24 AS.

Seriously, Illyana having more access to durability boosting equipment is better than just doing 7 more damage.

Wtf.

You totally didn't counter any of that. Way to strawman (I never mentioned Soren doubling in all of that, and 7 more damage is a lot).

Nevermind I've allocated proper stat-ups to the only ones who don't suck with them, but apparently stat boosters have no place in this tier list. No sir, not at all. Not at all, not tolerated in the smallest bit. It's inexcusable.

Wtf. (How many times will I have to use that?)

You were going with Ilyana w/stat booster > Soren w/out, therefore she's > him. How the hell does that work? Once again, get realistic here.

More like yay for Neph/Mia

Mia, the one who caps her HP in 6 levels with 70% growth anyway. Neph sure, but there are 3 by this point, and if Ilyana can get one, you'd better be damn sure Soren can as well.

This is where it's a problem. Part 1 has 3 durability boosters and Illyana's a perfectly viable cantidate for at least 1 because for most it's either overkill, or the others have 2 other options to chose from. Soren's only got 1, and CLEARLY better people who would love it just as much.

Wtf.

2-E's Dracoshield.

3-3's Dracoshield.

Neph can take one of those. Mia can even take one. Maybe Boyd or someone. Who needs a Seraph Robe badly? And if they do need one, why aren't we giving one from part 1 to them? Your stat booster argument is making no sense. You simply justify giving Ilyana one and Soren not getting anything, it's absurd. In snack food terms, Ilyana is not even close to Doritos, she's something like Shocktarts; she'll make your tongue bleed.

Because an existing durability lead is shattered by single digits worth of damage...

What durability lead? Ilyana with a Robe and Soren without? Do better.

Him supporting Shinon then destroys the entire point of his defensive and avoid boosts. Someone who's defense is actually put into play would prefer the defensive boosts. You're wasting an opportunity for others.

Please tell me how Ilyana's support is helping someone any more instead of constantly trying to downsize Soren's affinity.

Boyd having +1 ATK is better than having similar boosts, but avoid thrown in?

Wtf? I never even hinted at SorenxBoyd.

I'm implying Illyana is putting someone's support to better use.

Wtf. Jesus Christ, what is this? Ilyana's support will merely close the gap Soren already has on her. She supports someone and she's still worse, and her partner doesn't get as much out of the bonuses either.

So now I gotta use BEXP to make Soren have wins, nevermind this is 5 levels worth, IF they proxy into speed since his highest growths since capping is HP, Mag and a TIE with speed and Luck, so it might be even more?

Wtf. By level 10, his 3 highest growths are already HP, Spd, and Luck. Mag caps uber fast. And it's called slowplaying.

Oh, and I like how I apparently can't give Soren BEXP (as implied by So now I gotta use BEXP to make Soren have wins), but Ilyana can get so much shit that she doesn't even do very well with.

lrn2opportunitycost

Does it stop the fact he's getting offense this way anyways?

No, but at least with Soren it wouldn't be one-sided. And even if it's small, avoid > hit.

Because only Soren can improve the might of crossbows, since he's a brilliant engineer.

And Ilyana does such a great job at it...Oh wait, no she doesn't.

It's his worst growth, you would have to pump a crapload into him.

Those calculations didn't assume +Def from BEXP (though he'll get a bit), it was +HP.

Both laugh at them anyways.

ORLY?

I don't know when you want to make Ilyana tier 3, so I'll assume she fails her way to 12/20/6 by this map.

27 Res/45 HP (That's with support, mind you). 56 atk from Whites does 29 damage. You do the math. Hell, 12/20/20 Ilyana would be taking 22's, which is barely avoiding 2HKO itself.

As for Soren? At 20/11 he already has 32 res/42 HP, so yeah, it's still a 2HKO. But if I give him a +Def support like I did Ilyana, he's a mere one Res from turning it into a 3HKO, and with 70% growth, I'd say he's got a decent chance. This is without BEXPing him in tier 2 for more HP, by the way, so he'd likely already be in the 2HKO range.

And don't complain about levels. Soren was stomping her the whole way, so there's no way she'd be at the same level.

EDIT: I used "Wtf" 6 times in this post.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Narga_Rocks]

Wtf.

15.2 Spd. Wanna know what doubles 15 AS? A few enemies in 3-2, like half the enemies in 3-3 (or more probably). Even if she gets 16 by 3-4, 20 AS enemies start showing up, since we know that Lethe and Oscar's 24 AS is rather borderline on doubling. And this is overleveled for Ilyana.

A 9 Res gap. 9 fucking Resistance. Ilyana gets 2HKOd by Magic enemies. Want proof? 12/5 Ilyana has 26 HP/12 Res, and 3-2 Wind/Thunder Sages have 25-27 atk. All are 2HKO. And Thunder Sages have ~10-11 crit. That sucks ass.

5.6 Skl and 3.4 Luck is something like a 15 Hit lead itself. I'd mention crits, but Ilyana is already paper.

Ilyana is fucking terrible. Overleveled Ilyana is fucking terrible.

So I'd go with 20/1 Ilyana. I don't really see why she needs the doubling in 1-6 to 1-E with Resolve just to get closer to Soren.

20/1 vs. lvl 7

28.4 hp vs. 28.8

12.6 str vs 9.5 (irrelevant, too bad for her)

17 mag vs. 24.6 mag (7.6 down)

17.8 skl vs. 22.2 skl (4.4 down)

16.4 spd vs. 18.7 spd (2.3 down)

9.2 lck vs. 11.7 lck (2.5 down) (enemies mostly between 8 and 9 crit in 3-2)

8.4 def vs. 9.5 def (1.1 down)

14 res vs. 22.4 res (8.4 down)

So, what's this mean? Well, for one thing with 28 hp/8 def vs. 29hp/9 def she's comparing 22 mt to 35 mt is 2HKOing her whereas Soren has 24 mt to 38 mt is 2HKOing her. I don't think much has <24 mt or >35 mt, so hp and def are effectively tied. Okay, sure, 3 dragonmasters including the boss can OHKO her, but those aren't a major concern.

She has 18 x 2 + 9 + 15 = 60 base hit. A fire forge with just +10 hit means 160 hit. I don't see her missing. Also she never goes to worst. The skill lead is irrelevant and ditto luck as far as hitting is concerned.

She has 27 mt vs. 35 mt with forged fire, or less each depending on if you make it +5 or not. He's 2HKOing and she's 3HKOing, but honestly who are they attacking to completion? They are both members of the cleanup crew, the only difference being Soren cleans up better for when units that don't double are doing the enemy phase tanking.

With forged thunder, Ilyana has 41 mt vs. dragon masters, Soren has 49. He ORKOs, but considering some people have complained about making a max mt thunder for Ilyana in part 1, you'd have to make a new one in part 3. Why do that when you have a +7 mt thunder forge or something with >10 uses left anyway? There aren't enough dragonmasters to justify the expense. So they both 2HKO, or Ilyana was able to use an 8mt thunder forge in part 1.

There are 2 units with 20 speed in this chapter that can double Ilyana and not Soren. boohoo. Well, possibly 4, if Soren proced 19 speed. over 50%, so probably. Still, 26 mt 2HKOs Soren and they pull 9.3% crit on him unless he stands next to Ike. And they start near the beginning and prudence would have us kill them on the first player phase. Oh, and one of those enemies that double her is a boss that OHKOs her anyway.

hp/def/spd difference has amounted to 4 enemies. 1 halb, 2 dracos, 1 boss.

As for sages, yeah he wins. Even pulls a 2HKO on them. So his major wins have been condensed to being better at cleaning up and sages, and durability against 4 enemies.

Oh, and she has a .15 better hp growth, .05 better def, .05 better lck, .05 worse spd growths.

And he's only 2 away from capping skill and 2 away from res at base, and after those levels .8 and .6 away. She's just going to catch up to that, and by 3-4 or 3-5 when he caps mag she'll start catching up there, too.

If she has no business in part 4, I see no reason why Soren should be either.

Soren can be okay in part 4 (not good, but not too bad), Ilyana is pure shit. It's like "What if we had Rafiel use Magic Cards?"

edit: oops, forgot to put it in quotes, then messed up the edit and had to edit again

Um, 20/1 Ilyana vs. 20/3 Soren

42.85 hp vs. 38.8 hp.

20 str vs. 17.25 str.

28 mag vs. 30.6 mag

25 skl vs. 26.2 skl.

24.1 spd vs. 25.7 spd.

16.8 luck vs. 16.95 luck

19.1 def vs. 17.25 def

25.5 res vs. 26.4 res.

If you do bexping he'll boost his hp and def a bit, but at best he'll just match what she already has. And she has a +def support inbuilt. Soren could support def, but I'd rather give him Rhys so that when Soren caps mag he doesn't start 3HKOing too soon, or else he'll lose that lead over Ilyana when both are 3HKOing (B means +2 earlier and A means +3 instead of 2, actually I'm not sure if I'm right that there is an improvement). Anyway, he supports def and they become pretty even late in part 3 before both promote. She can still support def anyway, or support +mt and get +2, +2. Anyway, at best that bexp is just getting him a luck lead that only matters on warriors now that halbs get +10 and snipers have +15 and swordmasters have +20. Also, for what it's worth he's getting hp, spd, luck. He's not cutting the gap in def any time soon (tied for last), so may not actually match hers. Also, if she bexps then she cuts into his res lead, catches up in mag earlier, and cancels any gains to hp he may get from bexp levels. Also, she'll cap mag sooner and may be able to get spd or def since luck is only .1 higher and not exactly guaranteed. With 5 stats that can grow I'm not convinced that the effective spd growth would be under .3.

I'm not seeing how she's so much worse than he is in part 4. In fact, since he's unlikely to get def in bexp levels, she's better with concrete durability. Sure, he may have an avo lead, but who cares? Being healed slightly less often is not superior to being able to take an extra hit. And considering she still has a higher hp lead, any gains he made in approaching her hp/def will be eliminated as she and he level.

Then in 4-5 she has effective mt on stuff and he's stuck in 4-4.

20/4 for Ilyana.

29.5 mt and 25 speed. Pretty soon she'll be doubling tigers, but beforehand a forged fire is giving her 59.5 mt. Sure, she's not OHKOing stuff, but she's beating tigers and cats within inches of their life, and with 22 def from supports and 44 hp, cats and their 35 mt are 4HKOing her, giving her plenty of enemy phase action of causing large amounts of damage. And those tigers that may be left alive after another unit attacks it on enemy phase are basically dead meat. Elwind is 6 mt so 18 mt so 47.5. 2 hits hawks and raves, though she's not dropping them to <10 hp, but hawks still go to <20 hp after one hit and ravens are ~21 hp.

Fast forward to 4-E-1, and Soren at 20/10 and Ilyana at 20/9 (more exp in 4-5 than Soren could get in 4-4). 32 magic for Ilyana. 36 for Soren.

41.6 hp and 19 def for Soren. Bexp in part 3 would possibly drop soren's def, or leave it about the same. Say hp goes up to 44.

44 hp/19 def.

45 hp/21.5 def for Ilyana.

Give Ilyana any support that isn't light/thunder/water, give Soren light/thunder/water.

44/21 vs. 45/23.5

Soren is 2HKOd by >= 43 mt, Ilyana is 2HKOd by >= 46.5 mt.

Number of enemies with 43, 44, 45, 46 mt:

16 physical enemies. Also, another 9 as reinforcements. She's a fair bit more durable than him here. Also consider that 42 + 47 won't KO her, even if you round down and give her 45/23. 42 + 48 won't either. Or 41 + 49, etc. And yes, there is more than 1 enemy with 41 or 42 mt, and a fair number with 47. Also, when she levels she'll cement her chances at 24 def. Give her a water/light/thunder support, and she's even better here.

4-E-3, she's caught up due to a better enemy phase.

20/20/13 vs. 20/20/13.

34 mag vs. 38.6 mag, call it 39

45 hp vs. 42.8 hp. I gave him an extra 2.4 before, so say 45.2 for Soren.

22.7 def vs. 19.75 def. I'll round them both up and say

23 def vs. 20 def. (25 vs. 22 with supports)

32.2 skill vs. 32.2 (goodbye skill lead)

31.5 res vs. 33.4.

Okay, so the most important thing here is same skill, similar luck, and he wins mag by 5. Why? Meteor. Or if you crowned Heather before 3-E then Bolting. Bolting hurts Ilyana a lot here, so it's a good thing most people don't crown Heather.

39 + 18 + 2 = 59 mt. Even 78 hp and 20 res dies. Of course, 76 hp and 22 res lives, so depending on how much has 22 res Soren may not win by much. I'm sure I saw some 22 res, but it doesn't say in the HM stats. Anyway, Ilyana only does 34 + 18 = 52 without a +mt support. So 64 damage assuming no 22 res, and now almost anyone can do the 11 to 13 damage to KO the thing.

Meteor, on the other hand, means

42 mt for Ilyana, and 47 mt for Soren.

44 damage by Ilyana, 54 damage by Soren. A single flare means an extra 20 damage and neither KO. Double flares both KO.

Ilyana leaves it with 31 to 34 hp, easy pickings for some characters. Soren leaves it with 21 to 24 hp. Easy pickings for more characters, but they still need 57 to 64 mt (depending on the exact enemy) to OHKO at this point anyway, and a lot of units have the 55 mt to KO a 77hp/38def red that Ilyana leaves behind with a double. Of course, the weaker ones that have 75 hp and 36 def only require 52 mt to ORKO.

Interesting thing is that Ilyana with a water/thunder/light support has 45 hp and 26 def. So any 58 mt dragon does not KO her on a cover. There are cover tiles in the middle area that could help on the first couple of turns, and there are reds and a cover in the east for turns 3 and 4 or something. I wouldn't exactly call cover tiles favoritism when there are enough for multiple units to stand on. This is of course only relevant if you really want to have them go at it mono-a-mono with the dragons.

Soren can probably get S thunder, so he could have 39 + 27 + 2 = 68 mt and ORKO all the reds. In fact, a thunder forge is 65 mt and ORKOs anyway. Ilyana's rexbolt obviously lets her ORKO. It's got 9 extra mt, which makes up for the mag difference.

So, how about whites? Well, considering ward staves etc, they both aren't 2HKOd. Without that stuff, well if she rounds up from 31.5 res or has a level to reach 32 then a support is 34 res. So she now survives 2 hits from 56 mt whites. Since 58 mt whites are few, she's comparable.

Also, Soren needs cover and kurth for reds whereas Ilyana may not need them both.

Oh, and 42 mt admittedly isn't fun on whites. 8 to 12 damage means they are left with 60 to 64 hp. Soren leaves them with 50 to 54 hp. Assuming 24 def, that means 54 to 56 mt needed to KO what Ilyana leaves behind, and 49 to 51 mt to KO what Soren leaves behind. Hmm. Between units with mid 30s str and your SS weapons and supporters and wyrmslayers, I'm not seeing a major issue here. It's there, sure, but it's not huge.

20/20/15 vs. 20/15.

Soren is annoying now. Blizzard has 7 mt and with Nasir and no support the guy has 51 mt and ORKOs all the spirits not on wardwood. urg.

Still, Ilyana has 35 mag so 48 mt with meteor and Nasir. She falls short of 29 speed and while she doubles thunders she falls 1 mt short of KOing them. Of course, give her a +mt support and she nabs them, but still misses out on fire and wind.

For 4-E-5, neither double and Soren probably does 6 or so more damage, but oh well.

Honestly, she compares rather decently, and while at times she comes up short, I wouldn't say what you said about her part 4 is reasonable. At least not when you don't say the same about Soren.

It just means Ilyana's inferior durability gets magnified.

Except, if we seal her, then we gave her resolve since otherwise the seal was wasted. Then in part 1 she was more useful than Soren could ever hope to be in part 3. Even part 4 he isn't good enough to counteract that. If we didn't seal her, then there really isn't a massive durability difference.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[-Cynthia-]

I actually think I might go with Ilyana and Soren being closer together, Soren is really lacking in convincing leads, and once we factor in Ilyana's Part 1 utility it's very nearly a tie.

However, I'm not sure whether this is because Ilyana is underrated, Soren overrated, or both.

[Narga_Rocks]

I actually think I might go with Ilyana and Soren being closer together, Soren is really lacking in convincing leads, and once we factor in Ilyana's Part 1 utility it's very nearly a tie.

However, I'm not sure whether this is because Ilyana is underrated, Soren overrated, or both.

Well, I think they should be closer too, but the enemies in between?

Edward

Lucia

Volke

Stefan

Tormod

Rolf

Leonardo

Nealuchi

Nasir

What would we do there?

I'm not sure how to argue Soren vs. Ed/Luc/Volke/Stefan. None of them even meet until part 4.

And Ilyana vs. Nasir/Nealuchi? Again, don't meet. Leonardo compares with her in part 1. He starts worse and by 1-8 or something he'll be close, and with a steel forge in 1-E he'll be better. Also he has part 3 with wrath fun. Rolf has a massive str growth and becomes better than Shinon offensively in part 3, though still inferior with durability and that hurts in 4-E. Tormod is clearly better in 1-7 to 1-E, but by 4-4 he's horrid. Of course, in 1-7 to 1-E he's better than anything Soren can do in part 3, and in part 4 Soren still isn't so amazing compared to what Tormod was doing in part 1, except it was only 3 chapters.

This would just be annoying to compare them.

Edward

Lucia

Volke

Stefan

Tormod

Soren

Rolf

Leonardo

Ilyana

Nealuchi

Nasir

Maybe?

Or maybe not. *shrugs*

[grandjackal]

Narga is the left brain of the board.

...Or is it right brain?

See, it sucks when logic isn't your strong point.

Either way, basically Illyana's part 1>Soren doing 7 more damage.

[Zkirsche]

I don't think Calill is a tier better than Soren.

Oh and there's a bolting in 4-E-1 when we have silence to help steal it. So we don't need to early promote Heather.

[grandjackal]

I don't see either of them in lower mid. Only time Calill really doubles is like endgame of part 4, as that's the only time she has relevent speed. In fact, she doesn't double until promotion and that's if we wait till she's level 20, of which is 13 levels in her short time. This is to double at the start of part 4 as a note with 25 AS. Unless the idea is to BEXP her and crown her, which would screw her out of defense quite badly, I see no reason for the sages to be a tier apart.

In fact, let's compare. Calill's had 2-E, 3-9(now with Elite I imgine), 3-11, 3-E and one chapter in the route. Tormod's had 1-7 through 1-E minues 1-9 so that's 3 chapters. I'll give Calill a grand total of 7 levels.

Calill level 13

34 HP, 10 Str, 22 Mag, 22 Skill, 21 Speed, 19 Luck, 12 Def, 20 Res-63 hit, 11 crit, 61 avoid

Base Tormod

34 HP, 13 Str, 17 Mag, 16 Skill, 20 Speed, 14 Luck, 12 Def, 14 Res-46 hit, 8 crit, 54 avoid

So with all that training, we got her to have 5 more damage and basically a 17 hit lead. This is ignoring the fact that Tormod could down an energy drop, and could be slowpadded from there, of which he would likely gain Speed, HP and Skill. That or an Angel robe, and after 2 levels of BEXP, he'd get Magic, Skill and Speed. Basically after a Robe, I could boost his magic by 3, skill and speed by 5. Could crown him then, I'd get this.

44 HP, 19 Str, 22 Mag, 23 Skill, 27 Speed, 14 Luck, 16 Def, 16 Res

I'd also value his Fire affinity over her Darkness at this point. But even consider we had to train her up just to generally meet his bases and that he basically arrives far easier to fix from there. Even if trained normally, his growths are far greater than hers. Her only leads are +5% in Mag and Res.

When I bexp Tormod at that point, I get HP, Speed and Str, once it's gone Skill. She gets Skill, Speed and Luck. I'd take HP over Luck.

Maybe I'm off on something, but maybe Tormod's a tad underrated?

[Zkirsche]

Calill can easily be a higher level than that, though. Considering Paragon in 3-9 and high exp gains in part 4, Calill can easily gain more than 1.4 levels per chapter. In fact, most tier two units end up promoted, or at least near to it, by the end of their first part 4 chapter, so I'd say a level 18/19/20 or 20/1 Calill would be more appropriate. Also, I don't know what you're trying to pull with crowning Tormod and not Calill then claiming Tormod > Calill because things don't work like that.

Though I can see Tormod rising. His part 1 utility is very useful, and the difference between his performance and Muarim's when Muarim returns isn't so great as to warrant a tier gap.

[Mekkah]

Please, don't even mention stat boosters in the same post as Tormod. It has "waste" written all over it. Just look at the points they arrive in, and tell me that using them on Tormod doesn't come with an extremely severe cost. For example, the 3-5 Energy Drop. Are you going to deny one of the hawks one of these just to make Tormod have slightly better levels with BEXP? (note how the only remotely good stat he gains with it is Spd)

See, it sucks when logic isn't your strong point.

This is becoming a trend and it's really starting to annoy me. It always goes like this in every single tier list.

Grandjackal: i like this unit, so watch me try to think of a way to hype him to a higher position. every other sentence will contain "anyways" since it always involves extremely costly favouritism that gets stuffed under the couch for a few second.

other people: hey thats not a great idea because points A, B, C

[grand quoting fest with points A, B and C turning to points A-G]

Grandjackal: i give up ;_; i suck at this, [user] you are really good!!

For the love of god, please start striving for actual accuracy in a list instead of trying to fill space with air.

[grandjackal]

So I like the word anyways.

Anyways, it's not like Calill doesn't have opportunity costs as well. Paragon once she reached the GM could have gone to someone else. Without it, she'd techncially be the same or worse, and he's got the better growths. Which case, I find stat booster use on my end rather ludicrous indeed.

So basically the argument is Calill with Paragon>Tormod with nothing, and this is ignoring his part 1 greatness. Exactly when does Calill stun anybody in performance?

This question is just out of curiosity, but...How much BEXP is possible to have by endgame? With all the sealing and crowning, when exactly does one get the chance to even bother putting BEXP to good use outside of it anyways?

Wait nevermind, found the BEXP page. Lessee...6,875 for part 1. 12,925 for part 2, 39,675 for GM part 3, 10,000 for DB part 3, 7,500 for 3-9.

Basically the DB Makes 16,875 BEXP, CRK make 20,425 BEXP, and GM make 39,675. Wow, I could put DB and CRK together, and not get the sum total of GM BEXP.

Either way, this is a grand total of 76,975 BEXP for part 4. 15,000 for pre-endgame part for, bringing the total to 91,975 BEXP. For a 20/20/10 Beorc unit on hard mode, it would require 5,100 for a full level up. Basically this is around 18 level ups for such a unit, give or take a couple.

...Now thinking about it, what the hell am I analyzing this for? I dunno, but clearly we aren't exactly on a shortage at this point.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Kuja

[Narga_Rocks]

So I like the word anyways.

Anyways, it's not like Calill doesn't have opportunity costs as well. Paragon once she reached the GM could have gone to someone else. Without it, she'd techncially be the same or worse, and he's got the better growths. Which case, I find stat booster use on my end rather ludicrous indeed.

So basically the argument is Calill with Paragon>Tormod with nothing, and this is ignoring his part 1 greatness. Exactly when does Calill stun anybody in performance?

This question is just out of curiosity, but...How much BEXP is possible to have by endgame? With all the sealing and crowning, when exactly does one get the chance to even bother putting BEXP to good use outside of it anyways?

Wait nevermind, found the BEXP page

Well, paragon in 3-9 is practically free. She'll likely need to nab paragon for one of the 4 pre 4-E chapters she has, though, but she should easily promote for 4-5 and clean up there pretty well. 27 speed doubles tigers quite easily, and while ravens would double her until she gets a few levels, they don't ORKO or anything. She won't have Ilyana level durability, but she'll be somewhat okay. If you can build a C with +def, she has 41 hp and 18 def, so 19 def. That's not great, but it does mean that cats and hawks come up short of the 2HKO and 3HKO her, and ravens and tigers 2RKO her, but that still gives her some enemy phase to burn stuff or blow it away. 4-E-1 she should easily double generals, or at least have 29 speed and start doubling the generals soon. Soren needs 20/14 just to have a half decent shot at 30 speed, 20/15 to make it a good chance, and of course at 20/16 we can basically assume he has it. I don't think even 20/14 is happening for him here.

Really, paragon between 3-11 and 4-5 is mostly setting up for endgame anyway, or making a unit better about halfway through a chapter. Like, Elincia in 4-2 becomes pretty good halfway through and benefits in 4-5. Still, paragon is largely about endgame, and Calill has a pretty good endgame as far as 4-E-1 and 4-E-4 and 4-E-5 is concerned, as far as mages go. It is far easier with her than Tormod. It takes maybe one chapter of paragon. Paragon on Tormod in 4-5 won't likely get him to even level 15, and I suppose you could sit on a crown from 3-11 until 4-E-1, but I think that's a higher cost already. Plus, he'll be much less good after that one chapter of paragon than Calill. Plus, while it might appear that bexp will help him, you can't slowplay it. At best, you get him to level 15, dump one, maybe two levels of bexp on him, then crown him. At this point, you've paid a fair amount of bexp, one chapter of paragon, and a crown, and basically get 27 speed in 4-E-1. And 25 magic if you get lucky. Also, with minimal enemy phase in 4-5, and he probably needs 15 or more (but probably <20?) kills for 10 levels even with paragon, he also takes a lot of Rafiel and doesn't double and only has 28 or so mt with a fire forge (if he wants reliable hit), though that does increase to the low 30s along the way. He's not going to have the doubling Calill can do, at least not without using Rexflame a lot before you can bless it. He's not going to have Soren's usage in 4-E-4 because Tormod will lack the magic to ORKO spirits. I suppose he's got a shot of doubling auras in 4-E-5 considering 15/8 gets a reasonable chance at 31 speed and 15/9 a pretty good one, and 7 or 8 levels in 4-E-1 to 4-E-4 is likely doable, but still. I'm just not seeing how Calill and Soren don't blow him away here. The cost of one chapter of paragon on Calill to get what she can give us is far lower than the cost of trying to redeem Tormod.

I'd recommend focusing on the Muarim vs. Tormod. They both ORKO in part 1, but Muarim is basically invincible. However, Muarim has gauge issues and maybe you could swing that enough in Tormod's favour. Also, maybe pull from some of my posts about Muarim's durability in 4-5 and try to twist it such that there is no point in using either in part 4 so that people must focus on their part 1. I don't know if you could change anyone's opinion on the current gap between them, but I'd stay away from Tormod v. Calill comparisons.

[grandjackal]

Well since hte item page doesn't list olivi grass, the shop list is based on normal mode, I can only assume only 1 Olivi grass is available in part 1, and you find it in 3-9 where it's just the BK and Miccy. It could go to Muarim, but the problem with that is it can't stay on him, otherwise we lose it for DB part 3, or the GMs, not that he's the soul user of it at his time (there is Vika after all). Either way, this would hurt his performance along with others being Vika's part 1, Volug's part 3, and/or whatever laguz in GM part 3. All so when he returns, he can keep his mediocre performance going. Since that's not gonnah appen, this would mean his transformation issues bite him in the ass part 4. In part 1 by 1-E, untransformed he has 11 speed and 15 defense, meaning Aran should be more durable by now. Mordecai has 3 defense and 24 HP over Tormod, but Tormod's not getting doubled. The only thing not doubling Muarim are mages, and the weakest one does 15 damage, a 4RKO. Nevermind the meteor mage or the Elfire guy. To Tormod, a mere 11, and he's able to reduce it with Trinity Control (that sounds so cool). Strongest enemy does 11x2 damage to Muarim for 22 damage, 3RKO. I should mention 20 AS doubles everything on this map anyways aside from Jarod, who Muarim's not pushing any miracles either. Otherwise, these guys are 3RKOing Tormod too, however! Tormod has 54 avoid. He reduces them to 79. It's not great, but what is Muarim running? 32 avoid. 24 avoid miss. He can't reduce them to below 100. Most inaccurate enemy on the map as well.

Offense? Well Muarim does murder everything. News flash, so can Tormod. 22 Mt is all he needs, which is basic fire. This is capable of ORKOing anything on the map save the armors, which we can just forge him something if we're in such pain. So Muarim's offense lead is purely overkill. However, Tormod is able to counter range, while Muarim is not. In fact, Muarim loses gauge terribly if attacked at range, and he doesn't retaliate. Even worse is when he untransforms, his offense goes in the shitter. Sure, being able to 3RKO soldiers who can 3RKO you back with nothing but your manly chest and bare hands is awesome, but Tormod has the same conditions and he ORKOs. So half the time they have the same offense though Tormod has it plus range, and the other half he utterly destroys Muarim offensively. Offense goes to Tormod, hands down.

Durability. Muarim has it much better transformed. Basically invincible. Untransformed? Same, with double the chance of getting crit'd. Muarim has to beware myrmidons untransformed and thunder mages as well. Tormod never actually sees crit from a myrmidon, and only sees 3 at worst from thunder mages. Not only are they just doing 8 damage to Tormod, he can reduce it to 7 with trinity advantage, and proceed to continue after the 21 damage. This is 3 crit, as opposed to Muarim's 6. Quite double. Now you might be saying that Muarim is invincible transformed, but ask yourself this. What is the difference between not taking a counter and being tink'd? Nothing! On the other hand, there is ranged guys. They can hurt tormod, but Tormod at least counters. Not only does Muarim not counter, he loses meter. Considering him using the only Olivi grass is potentially hurting the others in various places, without it he doesn't stay transformed for long. With it, he's basically useless the first two turns, but hurting the performance of various people in various parts with it. Without it, he's useless until his slow-ass tiger gauge fills up. So, Muarim getting attacked at range is more a disadvantage than a good with his tanking being dependent on gauge. Tormod can evade counters, and has similar durability to untransformed Muarim with 3 times his offense. So truth is, Muarim is only better durably in direct combat about a third of the time. The other two thirds? It's Tormod blasting him to bits offensively.

As for part 4, Muarim is better as long as he stays transformed. Only way he does this for long is if we let him keep the one olivi grass the DB had, which is just stupid. Without it, he does just like Tormod. In fact, he could die anyways. There's plenty that double Muarim regardless, and just about everything has crit on him now since his luck is pitiful. At least Tormod can do chip damage and avoid counters with his leftover forge.

From there it's basically Skrimir with 2 less speed vs. Calill if she didn't get paragon. Or is it?

See, Muarim is a laguz. His level is multiplied by 1.5. He's treated like a 20/8 Beorc(not 20/18, so you guys did some serious miscalculations thinking it doubled their level), Tormod a 20/5. Tormod uses 2,600, Muarim uses 2,900 and the rate is exponential while Tormod is incremental. Muarim gains HP, Str and Luck, Tormod gains HP, Str and Speed, Skill once str caps. The speed is important, as due to his class and Rexflame, Tormod can actually double at some point, and it's his best growth. Muarim needs some serious luck. Basically after 5 levels, I can give Tormod 5 HP, 2 Str, 3 Skill, and 5 Speed. I can then crown him if I wish, or I can continue to pump levels into him as then all that would be left is HP, Res and Magic (basically I could easily cover all bases with Tormod). After 5 levels, I got Muarim 5 HP, maxed his strength and 5 luck. For Tormod, basically the BEXP rate increases by 100 a level, while Muarim it's like 150. So Muarim used a lot more BEXP to get mediocre results. On top of it all, I have to deal with his transformation still, AND a Tiger has to be the WORST thing I could bring to endgame regardless. At least Tormod could have staffs. Every 2-3 levels though is just 1 level for a 20/20/10 unit. For Muarim, it's every 2 levels, and slowly getting to 1. It wasn't even worth it, Muarim still has 22 AS and speed is his worst growth outside of freaking Magic. 22 ASis practically being doubled by the generals in 4-E-1.

Measure that as you will.

Which brings me to Lyre. She's treated like a 20/5 unit, not 20/14. BEXP-wise anyways.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Kuja

[Narga_Rocks]

Well since hte item page doesn't list olivi grass, the shop list is based on normal mode, I can only assume only 1 Olivi grass is available in part 1, and you find it in 3-9 where it's just the BK and Miccy. It could go to Muarim, but the problem with that is it can't stay on him, otherwise we lose it for DB part 3, or the GMs, not that he's the soul user of it at his time (there is Vika after all). Either way, this would hurt his performance along with others being Vika's part 1, Volug's part 3, and/or whatever laguz in GM part 3. All so when he returns, he can keep his mediocre performance going. Since that's not gonnah appen, this would mean his transformation issues bite him in the ass part 4. In part 1 by 1-E, untransformed he has 11 speed and 15 defense, meaning Aran should be more durable by now. Mordecai has 3 defense and 24 HP over Tormod, but Tormod's not getting doubled. The only thing not doubling Muarim are mages, and the weakest one does 15 damage, a 4RKO. Nevermind the meteor mage or the Elfire guy. To Tormod, a mere 11, and he's able to reduce it with Trinity Control (that sounds so cool). Strongest enemy does 11x2 damage to Muarim for 22 damage, 3RKO. I should mention 20 AS doubles everything on this map anyways aside from Jarod, who Muarim's not pushing any miracles either. Otherwise, these guys are 3RKOing Tormod too, however! Tormod has 54 avoid. He reduces them to 79. It's not great, but what is Muarim running? 32 avoid. 24 avoid miss. He can't reduce them to below 100. Most inaccurate enemy on the map as well.

Offense? Well Muarim does murder everything. News flash, so can Tormod. 22 Mt is all he needs, which is basic fire. This is capable of ORKOing anything on the map save the armors, which we can just forge him something if we're in such pain. So Muarim's offense lead is purely overkill. However, Tormod is able to counter range, while Muarim is not. In fact, Muarim loses gauge terribly if attacked at range, and he doesn't retaliate. Even worse is when he untransforms, his offense goes in the shitter. Sure, being able to 3RKO soldiers who can 3RKO you back with nothing but your manly chest and bare hands is awesome, but Tormod has the same conditions and he ORKOs. So half the time they have the same offense though Tormod has it plus range, and the other half he utterly destroys Muarim offensively. Offense goes to Tormod, hands down.

Durability. Muarim has it much better transformed. Basically invincible. Untransformed? Same, with double the chance of getting crit'd. Muarim has to beware myrmidons untransformed and thunder mages as well. Tormod never actually sees crit from a myrmidon, and only sees 3 at worst from thunder mages. Not only are they just doing 8 damage to Tormod, he can reduce it to 7 with trinity advantage, and proceed to continue after the 21 damage. This is 3 crit, as opposed to Muarim's 6. Quite double. Now you might be saying that Muarim is invincible transformed, but ask yourself this. What is the difference between not taking a counter and being tink'd? Nothing! On the other hand, there is ranged guys. They can hurt tormod, but Tormod at least counters. Not only does Muarim not counter, he loses meter. Considering him using the only Olivi grass is potentially hurting the others in various places, without it he doesn't stay transformed for long. With it, he's basically useless the first two turns, but hurting the performance of various people in various parts with it. Without it, he's useless until his slow-ass tiger gauge fills up. So, Muarim getting attacked at range is more a disadvantage than a good with his tanking being dependent on gauge. Tormod can evade counters, and has similar durability to untransformed Muarim with 3 times his offense. So truth is, Muarim is only better durably in direct combat about a third of the time. The other two thirds? It's Tormod blasting him to bits offensively.

As for part 4, Muarim is better as long as he stays transformed. Only way he does this for long is if we let him keep the one olivi grass the DB had, which is just stupid. Without it, he does just like Tormod. In fact, he could die anyways. There's plenty that double Muarim regardless, and just about everything has crit on him now since his luck is pitiful. At least Tormod can do chip damage and avoid counters with his leftover forge.

From there it's basically Skrimir with 2 less speed vs. Calill if she didn't get paragon. Or is it?

See, Muarim is a laguz. His level is multiplied by 1.5. He's treated like a 20/8 Beorc(not 20/18, so you guys did some serious miscalculations thinking it doubled their level), Tormod a 20/5. Tormod uses 2,600, Muarim uses 2,900 and the rate is exponential while Tormod is incremental. Muarim gains HP, Str and Luck, Tormod gains HP, Str and Speed, Skill once str caps. The speed is important, as due to his class and Rexflame, Tormod can actually double at some point, and it's his best growth. Muarim needs some serious luck. Basically after 5 levels, I can give Tormod 5 HP, 2 Str, 3 Skill, and 5 Speed. I can then crown him if I wish, or I can continue to pump levels into him as then all that would be left is HP, Res and Magic (basically I could easily cover all bases with Tormod). After 5 levels, I got Muarim 5 HP, maxed his strength and 5 luck. For Tormod, basically the BEXP rate increases by 100 a level, while Muarim it's like 150. So Muarim used a lot more BEXP to get mediocre results. On top of it all, I have to deal with his transformation still, AND a Tiger has to be the WORST thing I could bring to endgame regardless. At least Tormod could have staffs. Every 2-3 levels though is just 1 level for a 20/20/10 unit. For Muarim, it's every 2 levels, and slowly getting to 1. It wasn't even worth it, Muarim still has 22 AS and speed is his worst growth outside of freaking Magic. 22 ASis practically being doubled by the generals in 4-E-1.

Measure that as you will.

Which brings me to Lyre. She's treated like a 20/5 unit, not 20/14. BEXP-wise anyways.

I'm not going to respond to anything, just put in some corrections. First, we know they only multiply by 1.5 for bexp. You can go to any of the bexp analysis posts about Ulki/Janaff getting bexp and calculate it for yourself. It's 2x level for calculating transformed cexp.

And the 1-8 olivi grass in aimee's bargains is there in HM. I'd argue more for "trying to get the one in 1-9 is unreliable and slows you down and puts Micaiah at risk" or something like that if you want to argue that there is only one in 1-E. Not saying whether I agree, but I have been annoyed trying to get that thing on occasion. I may have reset abused to get it, and that's not allowed for the tier list. With it, there's no way more than 4 uses were burned in 1-8 even among two characters, so there are 12 uses remaining for 1-E.

And there is no weapon triangle in HM. This isn't just the physical weapons, it's the magical ones too.

[grandjackal]

I'm not going to respond to anything, just put in some corrections. First, we know they only multiply by 1.5 for bexp. You can go to any of the bexp analysis posts about Ulki/Janaff getting bexp and calculate it for yourself. It's 2x level for calculating transformed cexp.

And the 1-8 olivi grass in aimee's bargains is there in HM. I'd argue more for "trying to get the one in 1-9 is unreliable and slows you down and puts Micaiah at risk" or something like that if you want to argue that there is only one in 1-E. Not saying whether I agree, but I have been annoyed trying to get that thing on occasion. I may have reset abused to get it, and that's not allowed for the tier list. With it, there's no way more than 4 uses were burned in 1-8 even among two characters, so there are 12 uses remaining for 1-E.

And there is no weapon triangle in HM. This isn't just the physical weapons, it's the magical ones too.

Really now? Well..Pardon me on the BEXP deal.

Well I didn't see the bargains since I assumed it was NM schtick. So yeah, pardon em there, not that it changes much it seems.

Forgot about the last bit. Still, doesn't effect his durability much in regard to crit anyways.

Where IS the CEXP calculations anyways? They aren't on the RD page.

Also, I'm not saying Tormod is beating Muarim, but merely showing that perhaps the win is a tad exagerated if anything. Below the endgamers at the least, because most below them don't have the sort of instant awesomeness Tormod has part 1.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Kuja

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm not going to respond to anything, just put in some corrections. First, we know they only multiply by 1.5 for bexp. You can go to any of the bexp analysis posts about Ulki/Janaff getting bexp and calculate it for yourself. It's 2x level for calculating transformed cexp.

And the 1-8 olivi grass in aimee's bargains is there in HM. I'd argue more for "trying to get the one in 1-9 is unreliable and slows you down and puts Micaiah at risk" or something like that if you want to argue that there is only one in 1-E. Not saying whether I agree, but I have been annoyed trying to get that thing on occasion. I may have reset abused to get it, and that's not allowed for the tier list. With it, there's no way more than 4 uses were burned in 1-8 even among two characters, so there are 12 uses remaining for 1-E.

And there is no weapon triangle in HM. This isn't just the physical weapons, it's the magical ones too.

Really now? Well..Pardon me on the BEXP deal.

Well I didn't see the bargains since I assumed it was NM schtick. So yeah, pardon em there, not that it changes much it seems.

Forgot about the last bit. Still, doesn't effect his durability much in regard to crit anyways.

Where IS the CEXP calculations anyways? They aren't on the RD page.

Also, I'm not saying Tormod is beating Muarim, but merely showing that perhaps the win is a tad exagerated if anything. Below the endgamers at the least, because most below them don't have the sort of instant awesomeness Tormod has part 1.

Yeah, there isn't really a cexp calc page. More like random equations on various threads spanning this site and gamefaqs (and probably places I've never visited).

I'm not sure on if laguz just face x2 level or if they get an additional penalty, but:

delta level = enemy level - character level

hit exp = max(1, 5 + (delta level/2))

kill exp = max(1, hit exp + 15 + delta level)

Or something like that.

Also, that really only works consistently (as far as I know) when units are in the same tier and beorc. When laguz get involved, or a tier 1 fights a tier 2, etc, special bonuses and penalties appear, I think.

Also, I'm convinced I once saw Sothe get more exp from a hit to one enemy than he did from killing the enemy next to him, and I thought they had the same level. He was a tier above at the time and it was part 1, but I could just be remembering wrong.

[grandjackal]

Seriously? Man, what kind of weird-ass experience system does this game have?

If I may bring up Lyre again?

By the time you get to 3-4, you should have 10,350 BEXP in your coffers. She takes 2,600 BEXP. this reduces it to 7,750 BEXP. This seems big, but keep in mind this: Who cares about BEXP on the rest of the team currently? Most of the GM would just prefer to crown up or just stat boosters. By the time BEXP would actually be put to good use, this is literally next to nothing. Now she has the speed to double. Helps her offense, though still meh. However, someone like Rolf only has steel bows, which only equals 5 more damage a shot. Rolf isn't doubling any time soon. So with doubling, we got 47 HP, 14 defense and 16 Res along with 60 avoid+Thunder affinity. This is pretty similar to Oscar, who has 9 less HP and 3 less Res, though he does have a 3 Def lead. Granted he has an offense lead, but that should be obvious.

Along with doubling, she is now able to get to S strike twice as fast. Due to low level even for laguz, she does reach leveling pace sooner than...Well, any other laguz not Volug.

I'm aware her offense will always be a problem, but at least she's capable of doing something at least. As a note, no means am I suggesting she skyrocket to lower mid. I just don't see her as worst character.

But...Perhaps I'm a tad biased towards cats ;;>>

Edited September 21, 2009 by Kuja