OMG it's a tier list

[grandjackal]

Well in essence, all but Ike do something similar to what Reyson does: They are the fastforward buttons.

Haar helps us fastforward through part 2 when he exists and part 3 prior to Reyson's existence. Volug is key in speeding through part 1 without a care in the world about everyone else. Ike's in top basically being a god along with necessary (seriously, good luck with the BK if you don't train Ike). Reyson helps fastforward through later part 3 with his canto-ing. Only thing I'd say is that Reyson needing resources to help us speed through late part 3 (grass, stones) would make me think to put the others above him. I'd also think that speeding through part 1 and 2, saving us a LOT of effort and trouble is better than late part 3, simply because unlike most in part 3, part 1 and 2 are filled with units we don't give a shit about, and lets us skip them alltogether. Part three with Reyson is just merely part 3 on crank.

However, I'm not sure how this would be a solid case. I'd say technically Ike should bottom out top, Haar on top with Volug under, then Reyson.

However, this is indeed not a voting topic. So I must ask if anyone else sees this the case? Or am I missing something?

[charmander6000]

I'm fine with Ike > Haar > Volug, but Reyson needs to drop. On Smogon when we talk about whether a Pokemon is good or not without battling we call that theorymon. Fire Emblem has always been big on PEMN, but you can't totally disregard personal experience. In theory Reyson and herons are pretty great, but in practice the guy has a few flaws.

Availability - Reyson has 7 chapters before endgame of availability which is pretty underwhelming. There is a reason why the Royals and others aren't in top or high tier. He also spends the first turn of every chapter using a laguz stone/gem then needs to pop an olivi grass every now and then, which isn't helping his already low availability. This is different from other laguz using laguz stuff and everyone using vulnaries because Reyson doesn't have an enemy phase.

Durability - While Reyson shouldn't be attacked there is always a possibility, especially when he's vigoring characters to go further. However Reyson's speed is good enough that he won't get doubled until endgame though he does need to watch out for those archers.

Vigoring - Probably the biggest issue. A big assumption is that Reyson can vigor your four best units and while true the chances of that actually happening is very rare. First of all getting four units in formation while not wasting their player phase is quite rare and realistically you'll end up vigoring 2 or 3 units a turn if Reyson isn't grassing. Second it's rare that your best units will be near each other outside the beginning as the best units in part 3 and 4 can handle themselves and will spread out in order to cover more of the map so that we can finish the chapter early. Third Reyson is only giving units an extra player phase and while good most of the action happens during enemy phase. One could argue that Reyson could vigor a unit so that he can move forward to the next batch of enemies, but the problem with that is Reyson can now not catch-up to the unit to vigor him again unless you slow down effectively reducing the impact Reyson did for that turn.

IMO I would like to see Reyson at top of high, but bottom of top will also work. Btw I know that we shouldn't be voting, but I still like to give my two cents worth.

Edited September 26, 2009 by charmander6000

[nflchamp]

I had thought that the issue of dropping Reyson was eventually "dropped" because no one really had an issue with it.

[RPGslave]

I've kept bringing it up, but I'm still sick and I don't have any time to say anything about it. My argument was basically everything charmander said, but in a less organized way.

[Interceptor]

I had thought that the issue of dropping Reyson was eventually "dropped" because no one really had an issue with it.

The issue of Raisin was "dropped" because I got tired of arguing about it.

[nflchamp]

I had thought that the issue of dropping Reyson was eventually "dropped" because no one really had an issue with it.

The issue of Raisin was "dropped" because I got tired of arguing about it.

Well of course you got tired of arguing about it, you weren't actually arguing with anybody to begin with. Pretty much everyone was already in agreement with you. Either that or they didn't care enough to think up counterarguments.

[Colonel M]

I've brought it up myself, but again I knew many agreed with me and no changes have been made.

If I really must make an argument, fine.

[grandjackal]

I can agree with Reyson moving down. His abilities are helpful, but he shouldn't deserve to be the best character in the game because of it. I'd easily say Haar deserves that position.

As for how low Reysn goes? Well, I don't really see him in top, but that's just me. Like, I'm not prepared to have him over Sothe either.

[Narga_Rocks]

I can agree with Reyson moving down. His abilities are helpful, but he shouldn't deserve to be the best character in the game because of it. I'd easily say Haar deserves that position.

As for how low Reysn goes? Well, I don't really see him in top, but that's just me. Like, I'm not prepared to have him over Sothe either.

I'm not sure of Reyson, really. I think he's great in his chapters, and it makes things so easy. Also, I'm obsessed with stealing stuff, and he makes that easier too.

I just don't have a good grasp of what Haar does with a wing or what Ike does without transfers, because I've never given Haar a wing and all 3 playthroughs (only one of which on HM) have used my hp/str/skl/spd/def transfer Ike, and that particular Ike is far and away the best unit in the game (Seinfeld Tier).

I'm thinking I want to preserve Ike > Haar > Volug, and Reyson > Volug because Volug's 19 speed in part 1 eventually has issues and his part 4 isn't really top tier anymore.

So, Ike > Haar > Reyson > Volug, though I could be easily convinced to believe Reyson deserves higher, but I think I just really like vigor.

If we are assuming the GMs get the 1-E speedwing, or at least most of the time, then Haar can have the 2-3 wing and Titania gets the 1-E wing and Haar > Reyson. If there is any contention with that particular assumption, then Reyson > Haar is probably justifiable, though Haar still has flying utility in chapters that lack other fliers, and that's pretty major.

[-Cynthia-]

I do think Reyson's Vigoring is a tad overrated here. Reyson needs to use a Laguz Stone(which all other laguz want pretty much) to transform turn 2, or can Olivi Grass transform turn 3, in either case he doesn't Vigor those turns, fairly important since chapters only tend to be 6-8 turns long if we're playing efficiently(4-E chapters are even shorter).

Alternatively we can just Vigor one unit a turn for a few turns (4? 5?) until Reyson transforms, but this means that he's only granting one unit a player phase for the majority of maps, which is only somewhat useful.

Vigors are also fairly hard to set up, at least Vigoring more than one unit. Reyson has fairly low Mov and we can't expose him to enemies, so if our units are rushing ahead to kill stuff(often how chapters work), Reyson gets left behind and can't Vigor anyone.

Add in Reyson's availability losses(7 pre Endgame chapters, as opposed to Ike/Haar who have 12 each), and I find it very difficult to justify Reyson as the best unit in the game. When units are excellent like Ike and Haar, availability is very important because Ike and Haar have pretty massive contributions when Reyson isn't around.

[dondon151]

Vigors are also fairly hard to set up, at least Vigoring more than one unit. Reyson has fairly low Mov and we can't expose him to enemies, so if our units are rushing ahead to kill stuff(often how chapters work), Reyson gets left behind and can't Vigor anyone.

Transformed Reyson has 8 mov, and units with Canto make multi-vigors much easier to set up. You have a lot of those guys on your team; Haar, Janaff, Ulki, Oscar, Titania, etc.

[Interceptor]

*sigh* Blowing the dust off my old arguments. One thing that I'd add is that Vigor is not the same as "another one of your best units", because all you get out of it is the Player Phase. Raisin does not clone units, which is sort of important to mention from a combat perspective because a lot of this game takes place on Enemy Phase.

[Florete]

I do think Reyson's Vigoring is a tad overrated here. Reyson needs to use a Laguz Stone(which all other laguz want pretty much) to transform turn 2, or can Olivi Grass transform turn 3, in either case he doesn't Vigor those turns, fairly important since chapters only tend to be 6-8 turns long if we're playing efficiently(4-E chapters are even shorter).

Giving Reyson a Laguz Stone > giving it to other Laguz because I can still get them transformed faster but transformed Reyson is obviously > transformed anyone else. And part of the reason chapters are so short is because of Reyson. For a quick example, I recall being able to complete 3-8 in ~8 turns when using Reyson but ~12 turns (on another run) without.

Vigors are also fairly hard to set up, at least Vigoring more than one unit. Reyson has fairly low Mov and we can't expose him to enemies, so if our units are rushing ahead to kill stuff(often how chapters work), Reyson gets left behind and can't Vigor anyone.

8 move, plenty of allies with Canto, and also eventual Physics for healers. I don't see the issue.

*sigh* Blowing the dust off my old arguments. One thing that I'd add is that Vigor is not the same as "another one of your best units", because all you get out of it is the Player Phase. Raisin does not clone units, which is sort of important to mention from a combat perspective because a lot of this game takes place on Enemy Phase.

Sorry, Interceptor, but I don't feel like making the exact same responses to the exact same arguments, and made by the same person no less. Predict what I would say and move on from there.

[Interceptor]

Sorry, Interceptor, but I don't feel like making the exact same responses to the exact same arguments, and made by the same person no less. Predict what I would say and move on from there.

Predicting what you would say it why I stopped responding with you last time. You weren't accepting the logic of my arguments, my only allies in the fight were crickets, aka it was an intractable debate. There is a valid point in that Vigor can help improve your Enemy Phase positioning, but we're still quite a bit removed from cloning a unit. If I actually had two Haar's, I'd send them in different directions and increase my exposure instead of just augmenting it.

[Florete]

Sorry, Interceptor, but I don't feel like making the exact same responses to the exact same arguments, and made by the same person no less. Predict what I would say and move on from there.

Predicting what you would say it why I stopped responding with you last time. You weren't accepting the logic of my arguments, my only allies in the fight were crickets, aka it was an intractable debate. There is a valid point in that Vigor can help improve your Enemy Phase positioning, but we're still quite a bit removed from cloning a unit. If I actually had two Haar's, I'd send them in different directions and increase my exposure instead of just augmenting it.

While that's true I don't see the point of you bringing it up, as everyone knows Reyson is not Xane (And I'm assuming from context that you're not actually predicting my response). But up to 4 extra player phases + more flexible enemy phases I'd say is much better than cloning a unit anyway.

And if someone wants a Fire partner (I do believe both Hawks would like it), he's free for the taking.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Narga_Rocks]

While I remain up in the air about Ike, Haar, and Reyson, and am not sure about the positioning of any of them (6 ways to do it, too), I would like to say that Reyson is neat. He may not be 4 units cloned, but he allows me to sometimes attack from a position that I'd never use if I didn't have Reyson, and makes various actions easy. I mean, all I have to do is look at the nearby units I want to attack, figure out how to attack them in such a way I get at least 2 of my units back thanks to Reyson, preferably 3, then have them all march ahead and destroy stuff on enemy phase as well. In fact, Reyson makes Ike/Gatrie/Mia a lot better on player phase than they would be otherwise, as well. While Titania and Oscar and the hawks could theoretically attack something and march ahead, my other really good units can't. Also, Reyson allows me to significantly mitigate the pains of units having gauge, and the hawks have canto to make this not even (usually) prevent me from vigoring some other unit.

Also, I don't have to have Reyson take care of where Ike/Mia/Gatrie are going anyway. I can have them go off on their own sometimes and know that my less good units aren't going to get overwhelmed because they have a crutch named Reyson. He no longer gives Ike/Mia/Gatrie better enemy phase positioning, but sometimes they don't even care since no enemy is within range after enemy phase anyway, or 1 unit is and I have to have Gats hang back a bit while Ike/Mia press on. Gats plays cleanup and Mia/Ike often only need one cleanup unit.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that Reyson makes up for the availability differential, and Haar is the best unit in 2-P for the turns in which he is present and with the 2-3 wing can clean up 2-E pretty well. Then if he hits 24 speed by 3-7 he can take the DB's crown and do quite well for himself in 3-8 to 3-E, and double a few generals in part 4. And the durability and flight and move are really nice, of course.

But I think Reyson is really good.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[charmander6000]

No one is arguing that Reyson is not good, this is top tier afterall. It's just that Reyson isn't better than Ike/Haar because of his availability (also stoning then grassing in each pre-4-E chapter doesn't help), having competition in 4-E (Rafiel) and to vigor three or more units you would need a group of canto units, which doesn't happen as often outside of 4-E(especially on big maps) since most of them are spread out so that I can clear the map faster. He also isn't the equivilant of the unit he cantos either as enemy phase > player phase.

Edit: Also why should Reyson get all the credit anyways?

Edited September 28, 2009 by charmander6000

[Zkirsche]

And if someone wants a Fire partner (I do believe both Hawks would like it), he's free for the taking.

The hawks would prefer to support each other rather than Reyson. Much like Ike would prefer to support Mia over Soren.

As for Reyson, the question is not whether he's very good - we all know he is - but is he Ike level good? Honestly, I can't see why. Sure, having a more flexible enemy phase is nice on paper, but do units really want it? Ike/Haar/Mia/Hawks/Crowned Gatrie/Promoted Titania raep wherever they are whenever they want to. Then come the Laguz Royals and paragon Elincia, so really, why would our team need this as much as you say they do? I'm not saying it's not an advantage, but don't overhype it to the point where you make it out as if we're saving masses of turn counts or something like that.

Heck, reviving ~3 allies per turn probably doesn't even help the team as much as people say it does as those enemies can be taken care of on the player phase without going over the turn count limit. Compare this to Ike/Haar's 5 chapters worth of raep.

Overal, I don't see why Reyson > Those two.

[Interceptor]

While that's true I don't see the point of you bringing it up, as everyone knows Reyson is not Xane (And I'm assuming from context that you're not actually predicting my response). But up to 4 extra player phases + more flexible enemy phases I'd say is much better than cloning a unit anyway.

And if someone wants a Fire partner (I do believe both Hawks would like it), he's free for the taking.

I throw it out there because someone always makes the claim. Everyone else already took the good arguments, so rather than repeat them, I add what I have. I agree with most of what everyone else has said.

Fire is cool, rah-rah, but Raisin poofs for 3-11, forces you on Tibarn's route, and isn't even the best Endgame heron. You'll be needing an electron microscope to gauge the positive utility of THAT, I'd wager.

[Narga_Rocks]

While that's true I don't see the point of you bringing it up, as everyone knows Reyson is not Xane (And I'm assuming from context that you're not actually predicting my response). But up to 4 extra player phases + more flexible enemy phases I'd say is much better than cloning a unit anyway.

And if someone wants a Fire partner (I do believe both Hawks would like it), he's free for the taking.

I throw it out there because someone always makes the claim. Everyone else already took the good arguments, so rather than repeat them, I add what I have. I agree with most of what everyone else has said.

Fire is cool, rah-rah, but Raisin poofs for 3-11, forces you on Tibarn's route, and isn't even the best Endgame heron. You'll be needing an electron microscope to gauge the positive utility of THAT, I'd wager.

I did Elincia + Reyson, but I'm not sure how good that was. She needed +mt, Reyson couldn't care less, good deal.

Made Marcia + Jill because I wanted +mt and figured she could take a few chapters with a C.

[Florete]

Ike > Reyson I might be able to see. Haar > Reyson is another story. I'm serious when I say the only direction I can really see Haar going is down. Sure, he's a great character, but what makes him so much better than someone like Titania? He has pretty substantial durability leads (10 HP, 3 Def, though loses 7 Res and some avoid), flight, and arguably better growths with a lower level but actually 2 less base Str. Titania's durability is still pretty good as it is (3-5RKOd for quite a while, and if she supports Oscar, her avoid jumps), and we all know it's easier to get her doubling, thus her offense will more often be better than his. Her affinity as a whole is just plain better (Def > a little avo) and she has longer to build support as well.

Not saying Titania > Haar, but is there even a tier difference between the two? Is flight that good?

The hawks would prefer to support each other rather than Reyson. Much like Ike would prefer to support Mia over Soren.

Actually, I'd think Ulki would prefer Reyson to Janaff for +3 atk instead of +2 since Ulki really doesn't care about other bonuses. And if Ulki isn't in play, Reyson is probably Janaff's best option. Then there's the CRK's, Marcia, Calill, Tanith, Ranulf who mostly just want a partner but would appreciate the +atk.

Fire is cool, rah-rah, but Raisin poofs for 3-11, forces you on Tibarn's route, and isn't even the best Endgame heron. You'll be needing an electron microscope to gauge the positive utility of THAT, I'd wager.

Forcing to Tibarn's route isn't even really a problem for some of the potential partners (especially Ranulf), and I do believe I've previously explained why Reyson is, in fact, the superior Endgame Heron aside from, like, 4-E-2, and that's only if we want to/are able to have Ike to finish off BK immediately. I don't think I need to explain why Reyson would win 4-E-1, 3, and 5, and 4 barely needs a Heron anyway.

[Interceptor]

Not saying Titania > Haar, but is there even a tier difference between the two? Is flight that good?

I think it is when you're the only guy who can do it for a while. The ability to easy button some maps, fly out over obstacles and take hits in places where your other units can't get to, etc, is pretty nice. He's not competing for that job until 3-8.

Actually, I'd think Ulki would prefer Reyson to Janaff for +3 atk instead of +2 since Ulki really doesn't care about other bonuses. And if Ulki isn't in play, Reyson is probably Janaff's best option. Then there's the CRK's, Marcia, Calill, Tanith, Ranulf who mostly just want a partner but would appreciate the +atk.

OK, but:

1) 3-11

2) Part 4

I don't want to send a hawk with Tibarn.

Forcing to Tibarn's route isn't even really a problem for some of the potential partners (especially Ranulf), and I do believe I've previously explained why Reyson is, in fact, the superior Endgame Heron aside from, like, 4-E-2, and that's only if we want to/are able to have Ike to finish off BK immediately. I don't think I need to explain why Reyson would win 4-E-1, 3, and 5, and 4 barely needs a Heron anyway.

Ranulf's fine, but I'm not sure how much being a good support partner for an Upper Mid is worth.

I don't remember your Raisin > Rafiel argument. I look at Rafiel's fragility in 4-E-1 and notice that I have so many asskickers on my team that I don't care, because dead units can't hurt my heron. I look at 4-E-2 and look at a one-turn Wishblade clear. I look at 4-E-3 and beyond, Raffy is not even getting attacked anymore. He might get killed by the AOE in 4-E-5, but not until after he's done more than Raisin. I don't really care if Rafiel dies after doing something useful. See: Interceptor Suicides the LEA into the 4-4 Sleep Bishop Because It's Efficient to Do That.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Interceptor

[nflchamp]

And if someone wants a Fire partner (I do believe both Hawks would like it), he's free for the taking.

Fire is cool and all, but support w/ a heron is the toughest to leverage as far as I'm concerned. The combat unit is going to move before Reyson 9 out of 10 times and attack something w/o support bonuses. Then if they can canto back they'll likely move out of the support range again to attack (and once again lose out on the support bonuses). Then they have to canto back just to have a support on enemy phase. Of course, if they don't have canto, they either will move forward and not have bonuses or wait for multiple other people to move before them just so Reyson can go vigor the other people and be ahead for the support. And if my non-canto unit gets vigor'd I might move the unit out of support range and not have the support for enemy phase.

I mean, supporting a heron is fine and all, but it kinda constricts how I can act if I want to actually use the support.

[Zkirsche]

Is flight that good?

Well, yes, yes it is. Haar & Titania are very similar units, they both have good durability (or awesome durability in Haar's case), but rather poor offence. However, Haar's flight means that he can save many more turns than Titania overall, especially in chapters 3-3, 3-7, 3-11 and 4-4.

Now, if it is Ike vs Haar then it's different as Ike has much better offence in general, which I'd put above Haar's flying lead. But Titani has nothing over such an advantage, whcih I think warrants a tier gap.

[Narga_Rocks]

Is flight that good?

Well, yes, yes it is. Haar & Titania are very similar units, they both have good durability (or awesome durability in Haar's case), but rather poor offence. However, Haar's flight means that he can save many more turns than Titania overall, especially in chapters 3-3, 3-7, 3-11 and 4-4.

Now, if it is Ike vs Haar then it's different as Ike has much better offence in general, which I'd put above Haar's flying lead. But Titani has nothing over such an advantage, whcih I think warrants a tier gap.

Well, it depends.

2 things:

1-E speedwing, DB or GM?

Speed of growth.

Haar starts with 20 speed, and a wing makes 22.

Titania starts with 21 speed, and a wing makes 23.

Haar needs 3 or 4 levels to get a good shot at 21/23 speed. Two levels makes 51%, but that's not a "good shot", depending on how we define it. 60% or better yet 70% would be nice, but I think ~66.6% is a nice benchmark since a unit is twice as likely to have at least a certain amount than less, but 60% is okay too I guess.

Still, even assuming he gets 21/23 in 3 levels, how quickly? When does Titania hit 22/24? How high a cost is the 3-6 crown? Basically, Titania and Haar can each take a speewing, and while Haar arguably is a better candidate for a single wing (flight, more durability), Titania is easily number 2, so if we have just 1 Titania takes it at a higher cost. Of course, I say we have two and the cost is minor. The cost of the 3-6 crown also determines if Haar gets to crack 24 speed in time to double 21 or 22 speed enemies, which helps.

Anyway, Titania will probably get 24 speed before Haar hits 24 speed, and will have 23 for a small amount of time Haar doesn't have 23. That's an offence lead. But Haar has a 10hp/3def durability lead with a 6 luck and 7 res deficit. Also, 30% hp growth vs. 60% hp growth in Titania's favour but 65% def vs. 20% def is very much in Haar's favour, and he levels quicker. Even if we assume 6 levels in the time of 4 levels, that's 1.8 vs. 2.4, so she hasn't cut down on the hp deficit significantly, and in that timeframe Haar has capped defence at 26 and Titania has 20.8. Res is only 20% vs. 30%, and with Haar getting 6 to 4 levels that's the same amount of res, so the res gap doesn't grow. Also, 45% luck vs. 40% luck, so the luck gap is only going to decrease, and 6 to 4 means 2.7 luck vs. 1.6, so he's already cut it by one.

Pretty big durability difference, though being OHKOable by thunder sages is quite annoying, but it's only a small portion of the enemies. Of course, 3-3 involves routes that would be good for Haar but put him in range of two thunder sages, and that's annoying, too.

She can cut down on the def gap with her affinity, but 23 def vs. 26 isn't doing her any favours, and that's with being tethered to a support. Also, she lacks a significant hit rate advantage without her support, because he has massive skill to cancel the lck gap, so it's just supports. Also, he has access to lances.

Then he just needs to hit 24 speed and crowning won't hurt him in the long run, she needs to hit 25. Sure, she could crown at 24 speed, but one of the ways for her to get a lead in part 4 is starting with 27 speed and being closer to doubling more things like warriors and halbs. It's simply not happening nearly as quickly if she starts at 26 speed. And he still has flight in 4-1 and 4-4 if he goes with her, and he can go after the paladins in 4-P and help in the desert, or whatever. Also, he'll double tigers in 4-5, so that helps him.

You know what? Screw it, I'm not making any conclusions. Interpret the numbers as desired.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks