OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

I believe Titania is where she is with a crown and a wing.

Aside from you, can you name me even one person thinking she actually needs a crown?

Speedwing alone doesn't let her double all the warriors/halbs, sure, but she's still doubling more than dudes not named Mia/Ike/Shinon/Nephenee before 3-4, then comes crown!Gatrie (and I suppose Ranulf).

3-3 crown-Gatrie

3-6 crown-Haar

next crown you have access to? 3-9/3-11 in 3-11.

Why isn't Titania promoted anyway by then? I only mentioned her in the Tanith/Sigrun since if you aren't using Titania as much as you could be, she's probably not promoted yet. Also, I mentioned her with other units, as in there is no assumption she'd get it since the others (except Soren) are about equal for it anyway. Also, if she wasn't winged she probably received less exp along the way so she may be lower leveled, and crowning gets her to at least double stuff in 3-11 and pallies in 3-E.

But I generally look at Titania's position on this list as if she gets the 1-E wing and not much else. Maybe an Oscar support, but with his semi-bad offence it may hurt the team more than help it.

Tanith isn't doubling with 27 speed, the end. Not until the dragons, which is why I stopped at 2.

4-P

4x Halberdier lvl 5 (Stl Greatlance):

42 HP, 36 Atk, 22 AS, 133 Hit, 61 Avo, 20 Def, 16 Res, 16 Crit, 17 Ddg

1x Blade Pal lvl 6 (Stl Swd):

45 HP, 31.5 Atk, 21.5 AS, 144 Hit, 61-63 Avo, 21 Def, 15 Res, 10 Crit, 19 Ddg

1x Blade Pal lvl 6 (Stl Blade):

45 HP, 35.5 Atk, 21.5 AS, 124 Hit, 61-63 Avo, 21 Def, 15 Res, 10 Crit, 19 Ddg

1x Blade Pal lvl 7 (Stl Swd):

46 HP, 32 Atk, 22 AS, 147 Hit, 64 Avo, 22 Def, 16 Res, 10 Crit, 20 Ddg

1x Axe Pal lvl 6 (Stl Axe):

43 HP, 35 Atk, 21 AS, 138 Hit, 61 Avo, 20 Def, 15 Res, 11 Crit, 19 Ddg

1x Axe Pal lvl 6 (Short Axe):

43 HP, 36 Atk, 21 AS, 123 Hit, 61 Avo, 20 Def, 15 Res, 11 Crit, 19 Ddg

2x Axe Pal lvl 7 (Stl Axe):

44HP, 35.5 Atk, 22 AS, 141 Hit, 64 Avo, 21 Def, 15 Res, 11 Crit, 20 Ddg

1x Axe Pal lvl 8 (Silver Axe):

45 HP, 39 Atk, 22 AS, 139 Hit, 65 Avo, 21 Def, 16 Res, 12 Crit, 21 Ddg

2x Lance Pal lvl 5 (Stl Lance):

43 HP, 32 Atk, 21 AS, 138 Hit, 60 Avo, 19 Def, 14 Res, 10 Crit, 18 Ddg

3x Lance Pal lvl 6 (Stl Lance):

44 HP, 33 Atk, 22 AS, 141 Hit, 63 Avo, 20 Def, 15 Res, 10 Crit, 19 Ddg

1x Lance Pal lvl 6 (Killer Lance):

44 HP, 32 Atk, 22 AS, 141 Hit, 63 Avo, 20 Def, 15 Res, 40 Crit, 19 Ddg

1x Lance Pal lvl 6 (Silver Lance):

44 HP, 36 Atk, 22 AS, 141 Hit, 63 Avo, 20 Def, 15 Res, 10 Crit, 19 Ddg

1x Lance Pal lvl 7 (Stl Lance):

45 HP, 33.5 Atk, 23 AS, 144 Hit, 66 Avo, 21 Def, 16 Res, 11 Crit, 20 Ddg

1x Lance Pal lvl 7 (Silver Lance):

45 HP, 36.5 Atk, 23 AS, 144 Hit, 66 Avo, 21 Def, 16 Res, 11 Crit, 20 Ddg

1x Bow Pal lvl 5 (Stl Bow):

43 HP, 32 Atk, 21 AS, 138 Hit, 60 Avo, 20 Def, 14 Res, 10 Crit, 18 Ddg

4x Bow Pal lvl 6 (Stl Bow):

44 HP, 32 Atk, 21.5 AS, 141 Hit, 61-63 Avo, 20 Def, 15 Res, 10 Crit, 19 Ddg

1x Bow Pal lvl 6 (Stl Longbow):

44 HP, 34 Atk, 21.5 AS, 121 Hit, 61-63 Avo, 20 Def, 15 Res, 10 Crit, 19 Ddg

1x Bow Pal lvl 7 (Stl Bow):

45 HP, 32 Atk, 22 AS, 144 Hit, 64 Avo, 21 Def, 15 Res, 11 Crit, 20 Ddg

1x Sword Gen lvl 6 (Silver Swd):

44 HP, 35.5 Atk, 22 AS, 142-144 Hit, 64 Avo, 26 Def, 16 Res, 10.5 Crit, 20 Ddg

1x Sword Gen lvl 7 (Tempest Blade):

45 HP, 42 Atk, 22 AS, 120 Hit, 65 Avo, 27 Def, 17 Res, 11 Crit, 21 Ddg

1x Axe Gen lvl 6 (Short Axe):

43 HP, 37 Atk, 20 AS, 126-128 Hit, 60 Avo, 25 Def, 16 Res, 11.5 Crit, 20 Ddg

1x Axe Gen lvl 8 (Short Axe)

45 Hp, 38 Atk, 21 AS, 132 Hit, 64 Avo, 27 Def, 18 Res, 12 Crit, 22 Ddg

1x Bishop lvl 6 (Ellight, Recover, Physic):

36 HP, 28 Atk, 19 AS, 159 Hit, 64 Avo, 13 Def, 25 Res, 9 Crit, 26 Ddg

1x Lance Pal lvl 6 (Stl Lance):

44 HP, 33 Atk, 22 AS, 141 Hit, 63 Avo, 20 Def, 15 Res, 10 Crit, 19 Ddg

1x Lance Pal lvl 7 (Stl Lance):

45 HP, 33.5 Atk, 23 AS, 144 Hit, 66 Avo, 21 Def, 16 Res, 11 Crit, 20 Ddg

Southeast

1x Axe Pal lvl 6 (Stl Axe):

43 HP, 35 Atk, 21 AS, 138 Hit, 61 Avo, 20 Def, 15 Res, 11 Crit, 19 Ddg

1x Blade Pal lvl 7 (Stl Swd):

46 HP, 32 Atk, 22 AS, 147 Hit, 64 Avo, 22 Def, 16 Res, 10 Crit, 20 Ddg

Turn 2

Southeast

2x Blade Pal lvl 6 (Stl Swd):

45 HP, 31.5 Atk, 21.5 AS, 144 Hit, 61-63 Avo, 21 Def, 15 Res, 10 Crit, 19 Ddg

1x Blade Pal lvl 6 (Killing Edge):

45 HP, 30.5 Atk, 21.5 AS, 144 Hit, 61-63 Avo, 21 Def, 15 Res, 40 Crit, 19 Ddg

Turn 3

Northwest

2x Blade Pal lvl 6 (Stl Swd):

45 HP, 31.5 Atk, 21.5 AS, 144 Hit, 61-63 Avo, 21 Def, 15 Res, 10 Crit, 19 Ddg

1x Blade Pal lvl 7 (Stl Swd):

46 HP, 32 Atk, 22 AS, 147 Hit, 64 Avo, 22 Def, 16 Res, 10 Crit, 20 Ddg

Turn 4

Southeast

2x Lance Pal lvl 7 (Stl Lance):

45 HP, 33.5 Atk, 23 AS, 144 Hit, 66 Avo, 21 Def, 16 Res, 11 Crit, 20 Ddg

1x Blade Pal lvl 6 (Storm Swd):

45 HP, 34.5 Atk, 21.5 AS, 109 Hit, 61-63 Avo, 21 Def, 15 Res, 10 Crit, 19 Ddg

Turn 5

Northwest

2x Axe Pal lvl 7 (Stl Axe):

44HP, 35.5 Atk, 22 AS, 141 Hit, 64 Avo, 21 Def, 15 Res, 11 Crit, 20 Ddg

1x Bow Pal lvl 7 (Stl Bow):

45 HP, 32 Atk, 22 AS, 144 Hit, 64 Avo, 21 Def, 15 Res, 11 Crit, 20 Ddg

East

1x Bishop lvl 6 (Purge/Shine):

36 HP, 28/30 Atk, 17/19 AS, 144/154 Hit, 60/62 Avo, 13 Def, 25 Res, 9 Crit, 26 Ddg

North

1x Bishop lvl 6 (Purge, Shine):

36 HP, 28/30 Atk, 17/19 AS, 144/154 Hit, 60/62 Avo, 13 Def, 25 Res, 9 Crit, 26 Ddg

4-1

2x Sniper lvl 6 (Stl Bow):

43 HP, 34 Atk, 23 AS, 19.5 Def, 15 Res, 22.5 Crit

2x Swd Gen lvl 7 (Stl Swd):

45 HP, 33 Atk, 22 AS, 150 Hit, 65 Avo, 27 Def, 17 Res, 11 Crit, 21 Ddg

1x Swd Gen lvl 7 (Stl Blade):

45 HP, 37 Atk, 22 AS, 130 Hit, 65 Avo, 27 Def, 17 Res, 11 Crit, 21 Ddg

1x Lance Gen lvl 6 (Short Spear):

45 HP, 34 Atk, 21 AS, 119-121 Hit, 62 Avo, 25.5 Def, 16 Res, 11 Crit, 20 Ddg

1x Lance Gen lvl 8 (Horseslayer):

46 HP, 37 Atk, 22 AS, 135 Hit, 66 Avo, 27 Def, 18 Res, 12 Crit, 22 Ddg

1x Lance Gen lvl 9 (Stl Lance):

46 HP, 36 Atk, 23 AS, 152 Hit, 68 Avo, 28 Def, 19 Res, 12 Crit, 22 Ddg

1x Axe Gen lvl 7 (Stl Poleaxe):

44HP, 40.5 Atk, 21 AS, 129 Hit, 63 Avo, 26 Def, 17 Res, 12 Crit, 21 Ddg

2x Axe Gen lvl 9 (Short Axe):

46 HP, 39 Atk, 22 AS, 134 Hit, 66 Avo, 27 Def, 19 Res, 13 Crit, 22 Ddg

1x Axe Gen lvl 10 (Silver Axe):

47 HP, 42 Atk, 22 AS, 145 Hit, 67 Avo, 28 Def, 20 Res, 13 Crit, 23 Ddg

1x Fire Sage lvl 9 (Arcfire):

41 HP, 35 Atk, 23 AS, 143 Hit, 63 Avo, 17 Def, 23 Res, 16 Crit, 17 Ddg

1x Thun Sage lvl 8 (Elthun):

39 HP, 31 atk, 21 AS, 138 Hit, 59 Avo, 16 Def, 22 Res, 26 Crit, 17 Ddg

2x Druid lvl 8 (Worm):

39 HP, 35 Atk, 22.5 AS,16 Def, 26 Res, 12 Crit

1x Druid lvl 8 (Carreau):

39 HP, 37 Atk, 22.5 AS,16 Def, 26 Res, 17 Crit

3x Bishop lvl 7 (Physic):

37 HP, 20 AS, 67 Avo, 13 Def, 26 Res, 27 Ddg

*One has a Pure Water, another has a Concoction

1x Bishop lvl 8 (Physic, Elixir):

38 HP, 20 AS, 68 Avo, 14 Def, 27 Res, 28 Ddg

1x Swd Gen lvl 7 (Stl Swd):

45 HP, 33 Atk, 22 AS, 150 Hit, 65 Avo, 27 Def, 17 Res, 11 Crit, 21 Ddg

1x Thun Sage lvl 7 (Elthun):

38.5 HP, 30 Atk, 21 AS, 135-137 Hit, 68 Avo, 15 Def, 21 Res, 26 Crit, 16 Ddg

1x Fire Sage lvl 7 (Elfire):

39 HP, 31 Atk, 22 AS, 145 Hit, 60 Avo, 16 Def, 21 Res, 11 Crit, 16 Ddg

1x Thun Sage lvl 7 (Elthun):

38.5 HP, 30 Atk, 21 AS, 135-137 Hit, 68 Avo, 15 Def, 21 Res, 26 Crit, 16 Ddg

1x Fire Sage lvl 8 (Elfire):

40 HP, 32 Atk, 22 AS, 148 Hit, 61 Avo, 17 Def, 22 Res, 11 Crit, 17 Ddg

1x Fire Sage lvl 7 (Elfire):

39 HP, 31 Atk, 22 AS, 145 Hit, 60 Avo, 16 Def, 21 Res, 11 Crit, 16 Ddg

1x Fire Sage lvl 8 (Elfire):

40 HP, 32 Atk, 22 AS, 148 Hit, 61 Avo, 17 Def, 22 Res, 11 Crit, 17 Ddg

Turn 8

North

1x Druid lvl 8 (Worm):

39 HP, 35 Atk, 22.5 AS,16 Def, 26 Res, 12 Crit

4-2

2x Halb lvl 6 (Stl Lance):

43 HP, 32.5 Atk, 23 AS, 144-146 Hit, 64 Avo, 21 Def, 17 Res, 16.5 Crit, 18 Ddg

2x Lance Gen lvl 6 (Stl Lance):

44 HP, 34 Atk, 21 AS, 144-146 Hit, 62 Avo, 25.5 Def, 16 Res, 11 Crit, 20 Ddg

1x Lance Gen lvl 7 (Stl Greatlance):

45 HP, 38.5 Atk, 22 AS, 137 Hit, 65 Avo, 26 Def, 17 Res, 11 Crit, 21 Ddg

1x Lance Gen lvl 8 (Stl Greatlance):

46 HP, 39 Atk, 22 AS, 140 Hit, 66 Avo, 27 Def, 18 Res, 12 Crit, 22 Ddg

1x Lance Gen lvl 8 (Spear):

46 HP, 39 Atk, 22 AS, 130 Hit, 66 Avo, 27 Def, 18 Res, 17 Crit, 22 Ddg

2x Axe Gen lvl 7 (Steel Poleaxe):

44HP, 40.5 Atk, 21 AS, 129 Hit, 63 Avo, 26 Def, 17 Res, 12 Crit, 21 Ddg

1x Axe Gen lvl 8 (Silver Axe):

45 Hp, 40 Atk, 21 AS, 142 Hit, 64 Avo, 27 Def, 18 Res, 12 Crit, 22 Ddg

1x Axe Gen lvl 8 (Silver Poleaxe):

45 Hp, 44 Atk, 21 AS, 132 Hit, 64 Avo, 27 Def, 18 Res, 12 Crit, 22 Ddg

1x Swd Gen lvl 7 (Stl Blade):

45 HP, 37 Atk, 22 AS, 130 Hit, 65 Avo, 27 Def, 17 Res, 11 Crit, 21 Ddg

1x Swd Gen lvl 8 (Stl Blade):

46 HP, 38 Atk, 23 AS, 133 Hit, 68 Avo, 27 Def, 18 Res, 11 Crit, 22 Ddg

1x Swd Gen lvl 9 (Storm Swd):

46 HP, 38 Atk, 23 AS, 120 Hit, 68 Avo, 28 Def, 19 Res, 12 Crit, 22 Ddg1x Lance Pal lvl 7 (Stl Greatlance):

45 HP, 37.5 Atk, 23 AS, 134 Hit, 66 Avo, 21 Def, 16 Res, 11 Crit, 20 Ddg

2x Dragonmaster lvl 8 (Stl Poleaxe):

47 HP, 42 Atk, 23 AS, 130 Hit, 64 Avo, 26 Def, 11 Res, 13 Crit, 18 Ddg

1x Dragonmaster lvl 9 (Silver Poleaxe):

48 HP, 46 Atk, 23 AS, 133 Hit, 65 Avo, 27 Def, 12 Res, 13 Crit, 19 Ddg

1x Fire Sage lvl 7 (Elfire, Coin):

39 HP, 31 Atk, 22 AS, 145 Hit, 60 Avo, 16 Def, 21 Res, 11 Crit, 16 Ddg

*Drops the coin

1x Fire Sage lvl 8 (Arcfire):

40 HP, 34 Atk, 22 AS, 143 Hit, 61 Avo, 17 Def, 22 Res, 11 Crit, 17 Ddg

1x Wind Sage lvl 8 (Arcwind):

39 HP, 35 Atk, 22 AS, 148 Hit, 61 Avo, 16 Def, 23 Res, 11 Crit, 17 Ddg

1x Bishop lvl 7 (Physic):

37 HP, 20 AS, 67 Avo, 13 Def, 26 Res, 27 Ddg

2x Bishop lvl 8 (Physic):

38 HP, 20 AS, 68 Avo, 14 Def, 27 Res, 28 Ddg

1x Valtome lvl 14 (Bishop boss, Valaura)

Turn 1

Middle

1x Wind Sage lvl 7 (Blizzard/Elwind):

38.5 Hp, 33/32 Atk, 19/22 AS, 135/150 Hit, 54/60 Avo, 15 Def, 22 Res, 11 Crit, 16 Ddg

1x Axe Pal lvl 7 (Stl Poleaxe):

44 HP, 39.5 Atk, 22 AS, 126 Hit, 64 Avo, 21 Def, 15 Res, 11 Crit, 20 Ddg

1x Blade Pal lvl 8 (Stl Blade):

47 HP, 37 Atk, 23 AS, 130 Hit, 67 Avo, 22 Def, 16 Res, 11 Crit, 21 Ddg

1x Swd Gen lvl 8 (Killing Edge):

46 HP, 33 Atk, 23 AS, 153 Hit, 68 Avo, 27 Def, 18 Res, 41 Crit, 22 Ddg

1x Bow Pal lvl 8 (Stl Bow):

46 HP, 34 Atk, 23 AS, 147 Hit, 67 Avo, 21 Def, 16 Res, 11 Crit, 21 Ddg

Southeast

1x Lance Pal lvl 7 (Stl Greatlance):

45 HP, 37.5 Atk, 23 AS, 134 Hit, 66 Avo, 21 Def, 16 Res, 11 Crit, 20 Ddg

4-3

2x Dragonmaster lvl 9 (Stl Poleaxe):

48 HP, 43 Atk, 23 AS, 133 Hit, 65 Avo, 27 Def, 12 Res, 13 Crit

1x Dragonmaster lvl 9 (Short Axe):

48 HP, 40 Atk, 23 AS, 133 Hit, 65 Avo, 27 Def, 12 Res, 13 Crit

1x Bishop lvl 10 (Purge, Concoction droppable):

40 HP, 31 Atk, 21 AS, 151 Hit, 71 Avo, 15 Def, 29 Res, 10 Crit, 29 Ddg

1x Bishop lvl 10 (Shine, Physic):

40 HP, 33 Atk, 21 AS, 171 Hit, 71 Avo, 15 Def, 29 Res, 20 Crit, 29 Ddg

1x Bishop lvl 11 (Elsleep):

40.5 HP, 22 AS, 73.5 Avo, 15.5 Def, 29.5 Res, 29.5 Ddg

1x Bishop lvl 11 (Elsilence):

40.5 HP, 22 AS, 73.5 Avo, 15.5 Def, 29.5 Res, 29.5 Ddg

1x Wind Sage lvl 9 (Elwind):

40 HP, 34 Atk, 23 AS, 153 Hit, 63 Avo, 16 Def, 23 Res, 11 Crit, 17 Ddg

Turn 4

Southwest

2x Dragonmaster lvl 9 (Stl Poleaxe):

48 HP, 43 Atk, 23 AS, 133 Hit, 65 Avo, 27 Def, 12 Res, 13 Crit

1x Bishop lvl 9 (Ellight):

39 HP, 30 Atk, 21 AS, 165 Hit, 70 Avo, 14 Def, 28 Res, 10 Crit, 28 Ddg

4-4

1x Axe Gen lvl 11 (Stl Poleaxe)

47.5 hp, 43.5 atk, 23 AS, 138.5 hit, 70.5 avo, 28.5 def, 20.5 res, 13.5 crit, 24.5 cev

2x Wind Sage lvl 10 (Arcwind)

41 hp, 37 atk, 23 AS, 67 hit, 151 avo, 17 def, 24 res, 23 crit, 19 cev

1x Thun Sage lvl 10 (Arcthun)

41 hp, 35 atk, 22 AS, 138 hit, 64 avo, 17 def, 24 res, 31 crit, 19 cev

2x Bishop lvl 13 (Physic) *One has an Unlock

42 hp, 28 mag, 23 AS, -- hit, 77 avo, 17 def, 31 res, -- crit, 31 cev

2x Bishop lvl 13 (Shine) * One has a Sleep

42 hp, 35 atk, 23 AS, 77 hit, 167 avo, 17 def, 31 res, 22 crit, 31 cev

4-5

2x Tiger lvl 22 (S Strike)

57 hp, 46 atk, 20.5 AS, 155 hit, 56.5 avo, 25 def, 8 res, 12 crit, 10.5 cev

5x Tiger lvl 23 (S Strike)

58 hp, 47 atk, 21 AS, 156 hit, 58 avo, 26 def, 9 res, 13 crit, 11 cev

6x Tiger lvl 24 (S Strike)

59 hp, 48 atk, 21.5 AS, 158 hit, 59.5 avo, 26 def, 9 res, 13 crit, 11.5 cev

3x Tiger lvl 25 (S Strike)

60 hp, 49 atk, 22 AS, 160 hit, 61 avo, 27 def, 9 res, 13 crit, 12 cev

4-E-1

2x Bishop lvl 13 (Physic) *One has a Panacea

42 hp, -- atk, 23 AS, -- hit, 77 avo, 17 def, 31 res, -- crit, 31 cev

1x Bishop lvl 13 (Shine)

42 hp, 35 atk, 23 AS, 167 hit, 77 avo, 17 def, 31 res, 22 crit, 31 cev

3x Bishop lvl 13 (Shine)

42 hp, 35 atk, 23 AS, 167 hit, 77 avo, 17 def, 31 res, 22 crit, 31 cev

3x Bishop lvl 13 (Shine)

42 hp, 35 atk, 23 AS, 167 hit, 77 avo, 17 def, 31 res, 22 crit, 31 cev

I'm sorry, you were talking, right?

Anyway, lessee Manith's manly stats:

6 35 20 10 21 23 22 19 20 3.25

17 35.35 20.55 10.15 21.75 23.4 22.35 19.4 20.3 3.25

18 35.7 21.1 10.3 22.5 23.8 22.7 19.8 20.6 3.25

19 36.05 21.65 10.45 23.25 24.2 23.05 20.2 20.9 3.25

20 36.4 22.2 10.6 24 24.6 23.4 20.6 21.2 2.5

Higher Caps

/40 /24 /15 /24 /27 /35 /22 /25 -

Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Stat Ups

1 40.4 25.2 14.6 26 26.6 23.4 23.6 25.2 3.25

2 40.75 25.75 14.75 26.75 27 23.75 24 25.5 3.25

3 41.1 26.3 14.9 27.5 27.4 24.1 24.4 25.8 3.25

4 41.45 26.85 15.05 28.25 27.8 24.45 24.8 26.1 3.25

5 41.8 27.4 15.2 29 28.2 24.8 25.2 26.4 3.25

6 42.15 27.95 15.35 29.75 28.6 25.15 25.6 26.7 3.25

7 42.5 28.5 15.5 30.5 29 25.5 26 27 3.25

I'm not going to make that list more readable.

Anyway, let's look at speed:

2 levels + crown in 3-E:

25.8 speed at 18/1.

So 3 levels from 27 speed, one level of which in 3-E, partway through 4-P/1/2 she hits 27 speed.

5 levels away from 29 speed.

18/9 gets 29 speed. Want to tell me why she can't get 4 levels in each part 4 chapter where she is getting 29 exp per kill on enemies 6 levels above her? With enemy numbers in those chapters, and the fact you are probably raising all of 5 units or so in each route for endgame?

Oh, and knightkillers and wyrmslayers exist, and unless you are using multiple lance users incapable of ORKOing paladins without it, chances are she gets access to one of the two knightkillers. And getting a hold of a wyrmslayer for 4-3 should be obvious.

You said we were likely not to use both in one playthrough, Sigrun's the one who's forced more often. We therefore have a problem involving unit slots.

Except Sigrun isn't forced for Endgame. If Tanith is going to endgame she's not likely to be supporting Sigrun after 3-E since she'd rather have a B in 4-E than a C because she held on to Sigrun for too long. The point she was making was originally in reference to Tanith x Sigrun being an assumed pairing. (Though I'd argue that it is an assumed C in 3-E since they aren't likely to be able to get anything else and something > nothing, especially when that something is 1mt, 1def/res, 8avo for two units at no cost)

Neither are being used in endgame most likely, not taking a unit slot on maps where flying is greatly appreciated is better than you think.

Which is 3-E, that's it. She may be forced in 4-P/3, but it's not like Micaiah's route has so few slots that it actually matters. Especially when 4-P/3 are the only maps in part 4 that don't have the number of available slots reduced from EM to NM.

I concede Tanith Sigrun though due to earlier shown statistics, but due to Sigrun being forced more often than naught and being closer to promotion without needing a crown, they should certainly be closer.

If anything, Sigrun up, not Tanith down, though.

@Nflchamp-This sort of is the comparison with Calill vs Eddie. I'm trying to show that Eddie can speed up a couple maps while Calill just flat out can't in her forced parts. Eddie's 1-P alone should put her above Calill, since Calill isn't necessary for a fast completion of 2-E or 3-9, nor can she make them go any faster. I'm not trying to raise him to upper mid here, which I have no clue why everyone automatically assumes I am.

Yeah, as the other person said:

Meteor + Amitipwn. Not relying on stun. Therefore: Calill takes a shot. If she hits, great, Elincia runs in and 4HKOs. If she misses, Elincia is safe and can go next turn, or we can use Leanne to let Calill take another shot at it in the same turn. Either way, it's the safest clear. Even Haar with a speedwing can fail to kill Ludveck because in two shots he might miss. Want statistics?

Level 14 Haar (overleved, possibly) has:

26 skill, 14.35 luck.

Round up for fun:

52 + 15 + 15 + 60 = 142 hit.

Ludveck:

18 x 2 + 12 + 10 = 56 avo.

So, haar goes from bad to good bio, Ludveck does worst to best.

137 hit vs 66 avo

147 hit vs. 46 avo.

So, anything from a guaranteed KO to:

71 listed hit. aka 83.47% hit. aka 69.6724% chance of KOing.

Or at neutrals:

86 listed, 96.22% true hit. aka 92.582884% chance of Koing.

considering with the number of surrounding enemies and Haar's hp/def combo, he's basically dead if he misses.

45hp/26def for Ludveck.

Overleveled Haar has 25 str. 64 mt with the hammer. 63 mt at his probable level. 38/39 damage a shot. Calill needs to cause 7 damage (she causes 11 at base with Meteor) to turn

69.6724% KO into 97.267591% KO. Or to turn 92.582884% into 99.857116% KO.

Considering you can rush the chapter, and Haar is likely then going to have 24/25 skill and 13 luck? Hit rate drops further, Calill still gets him over 99% at equal bios and over % at a 3 bio level deficit.

24x2 + 13 + 15 + 60 = 136 hit vs. 56 avo. 80 listed at equal bios, 92.2% true, 85.0084% KO. Almost 15% chance of nearly assured death. Calill turns it into 99.3916% chance of KO.

3 bio deficit? 131 hit vs. 66 avo? 65 listed. 75.85% true. 57.532225% chance of KO. Huge chance of death. Calill turns it into 94.167775% chance of KOing. Higher than Haar's overleveled chance at equal bios.

As for Elincia, she is basically going to hit. 21 x 2 + 29 + 15 + 90 = 176 hit. At base level at worst bio against Ludveck at best bio she has 100% hit rate. Also why she's awesome. Base Elincia has 34 mt and does 8 damage. 32 damage. 13 hp remaining. Calill cuts it to 2. Marcia has 30 mt at base with a steel greatlance. Nealuchi has 27 mt. You might notice either of them + Calill + Elincia assures victory. Since Marcia has a miss chance as well and no real way to assure survival if she misses (needs Elincia to Stun), I'd have to say either two meteors from Calill or see if she hits with Meteor. If she does, Nealuchi + Elincia 100% ORKO. Or Elincia could level thanks to staves and has a 65% chance of pulling str and thus 36 damage, aka 9 remaining, aka Calill + Elincia = death.

Regardless, with that one act she rivals Edward's 1-P. Afterwards, Ed just helps, same with Calill in 3-9. Then there is competition. It takes her 3-11, 3-E, 4-P/1/2 before she is very much pulling her own weight. Edward won't be until 3-12, then skips out again until 4-3/4/5 at the earliest.

@Interceptor-My point is not that Eddie is improving to be one of these magic DB units, but rather he is one of those people that helps us curbstomp part 1 prior to Zihark showing up and taking that job right out of his hands. I'm not going the "He's good if trained for the whole game" route, but rather "Given this resource, he helps us get through faster till eventually he's dropped, like every DB unit anyways". Basically Eddie is one of those people that helps us not care about the DB if we choose not to train them seriously. He's not Nolan good obviously, but having 2 decent combat units rather than just one sounds to make things go quite a bit smoother, don't ya think? All Calill has in response to this is hitting some people with meteors in 2-E and 3-9, which is more just masturbatory since it doesn't actually speed up 2-E, and I'd say is less useful in 3-9 than Eddie is in 1-P. After 3-9 there is plenty of team better than Calill, after 1-P Eddie's capable of being decent until 1-6.

Rexflame vs. Spirits/(cover tile)Auras.

Meteor vs. Dragons.

Meteor vs. spirits.

Meteor vs. Levail.

Rexflame/Bolganone vs. Generals in 4-E-1.

Plenty of team better? They have more durability, sure, but she does more damage than a good number of endgame units against certain parts of each chapter.

Concerning Transfer Nephenee-Considering considering she shows up not needing any training to be Mia with spears at a much sooner time,

Cons: lower crit, lower avo, lower hp, still 3HKOs anyway, doesn't double swordmasters (most have >= 24 AS, and most of the ones that have 23AS have it before even transfer Neph is likely to hit 27), faces crits from halbs/thunder sages.

Pros: 1 or 2 points of defence and 2 or 4 points of damage before Mia's affinity/str growth kick in.

Mia with spears? No. Still Mia lite. How accurate is she with Silver Greatlance, anyway? That could make a difference.

I think you'd have to give her bexp + energy drop + dracoshield + crown to top Mia. Well, Ike support, but at this point I see no reason not to after those items. With that I'm not sure if she needs vantage + cancel for her durability (Mia can keep it), since earth + wind and 28 or so speed should cover it. Not sure how much she ORKOs, but she may not need Adept either.

[grandjackal]

Elincia is getting CEXP in 2-P from using Mend on Marcia, and that plus Recover/Physic and Vigor in 2-E means she's actually looking at the possibility of being level 3 by the time she goes for Ludveck's jugular (88% chance of proccing at least +1 STR).

Eddie's chance of proccing is obviously worth considering, but most of things things only happen half the time, which means that's how often you actually get to benefit from the boost. Elincia is far more reliable in that regard.

Guh. Of course, my memory fucks me up, forgot about healing in 2-P. *facedesk*

Ok, so Calill has a case. Now what of Soren? Seriously, what the hell is he contributing?

As for Elincia being more reliable, I think you mean easier, as only staff use is easier to swallow than what I was going for. It does however have the strange side effect that if Eddie procs, that's another level he doesn't need which allows him to be decent for his existence for part 1 while Miccy gets more chances to kill for more levels. I'll stop there, I'd take helping kill Ludveck in one shot than 1-P epicery.

I am not answering this question again.

I still think it's ludicrous. Personally I think you're overreacting on it, at best, Eddie would get above Calill for it. Is that really a major jump there?

EDIT: Hi Narga, already conceded.

Edited October 13, 2009 by France

[Interceptor]

As for Elincia being more reliable, I think you mean easier

No, I mean more reliable. Something that happens 65-88% of the time is something that I can reasonably expect to count on happening.

I still think it's ludicrous. Personally I think you're overreacting on it, at best, Eddie would get above Calill for it. Is that really a major jump there?

The size of the jump doesn't matter, it's about accuracy.

[grandjackal]

No, I mean more reliable. Something that happens 65-88% of the time is something that I can reasonably expect to count on happening.

Eddie has the same speed growth to Elincia's Str....

EDIT: Woop, off by 5%. Still, that's..not exactly a huge gap.

The size of the jump doesn't matter, it's about accuracy.

How can you accurately measure things when you are purposefully leaving things out of the scope?

Edited October 13, 2009 by France

[Shadow Mir]

Oh, and since Narga mentioned Haar being basically dead if he misses, I'd like to add that Ludveck also has a crit chance on Haar. If that goes off, Haar's dead, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. TO be exact:

Ludveck has 40 atk and 16 crit with his Tomahawk.

Haar has 46 HP, 13 Luck, and 23 Def at base.

A normal attack does 17 damage to Haar.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Richter Renard

[Narga_Rocks]

No, I mean more reliable. Something that happens 65-88% of the time is something that I can reasonably expect to count on happening.

Eddie has the same speed growth to Elincia's Str....

EDIT: Woop, off by 5%. Still, that's..not exactly a huge gap.

The size of the jump doesn't matter, it's about accuracy.

How can you accurately measure things when you are purposefully leaving things out of the scope?

Elincia could in theory have 2 levels, while Ed needs a lot of kills more than he may get just to get 2 levels. And even then, doubling just means if you make use of it on player phase he needs more healing than an Ed that only hits once but we make sure that hit will KO so Ed doesn't get countered.

[grandjackal]

Oh, and since Narga mentioned Haar being basically dead if he misses, I'd like to add that Ludveck also has a crit chance on Haar. If that goes off, Haar's dead, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

So, Haar ISN'T an easy button here? Wasn't he considered that before? Since if Calill misses she's still safe, wouldn't that mean that Calill is actually more important than Haar here?

EDIT: Narga, that argument was more on an "If he procs on one level" deal, like Elincia procing Str for Calill to be the better easy button than freaking Haar. I still meant easy to swallow, as at best it's only microscopically more reliable.

Either way I get it, Calill's more useful. Now what of Soren?

Edited October 13, 2009 by France

[Interceptor]

How can you accurately measure things when you are purposefully leaving things out of the scope?

It's a matter of maintaining an appropriate balance between perfect accuracy, and meaningful debate. Nobody really wants a tier list where Eddie, BK, Nolan, Nephenee/Brom etc are auto-Top tier just because the game becomes impossible if they aren't around. The compromise position is to give them credit for being good at reducing turn counts and maximizing efficiency in those chapters, and then moving on.

[Zkirsche]

What gives such a gap between Vanilla Soren and Transfer Soren when Transfer Soren only has +2 Mag, Res and skl, which aren't exatcly his problem stats. Nothing is really Solved by the transfer, so I'd put the two in the same spot.

Transfer Brom > Vanilla Taur? Brom's speed is now semi-fixable and his def has improved too. At least he shouldn't be doubled in part 3 or pre 4-E, unlike before. I suppose it's very debateable.

Also, shouldn't Transfer Boyd and Vanilla Boyd be in the same place as I can't see Transfer Boyd >>> Vanilla Boyd.

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh, and since Narga mentioned Haar being basically dead if he misses, I'd like to add that Ludveck also has a crit chance on Haar. If that goes off, Haar's dead, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Eek. Yeah, Haar needs the first hit. I suppose now if Haar is at a two bio deficit it might be a bad idea to let him attack at all. 3% crit.

So, with my calcs, worst case Haar has 75.85% chance of OHKO after Calill helps out. So .2415 chance of missing. So .2415 x .03 x hit chance of being criticalled, which is <= .7245%. As opposed to a straight up .03 x hit chance of being criticalled. Then if he misses his next shot he dies, but his chance of death should still be rather low in comparison to without Calill. And really, since you could go base Calill + base Nealuchi + base Elincia to 100% safe ORKO it's fine.

Nealuchi has (9x2)x2 + 24 + 15 + 90 = 165 hit against 56 avo. I suppose at worst that is 89% listed. 97.69%. 95.433361% chance of hitting twice and causing the needed 2 damage. He faces no crit chance. But that's also only necessary in the 35% chance that Elincia didn't proc str. So that drops it to a 1.59832365% chance of problems. Or she levels twice and it cuts it even lower. Or he's just not on worst bio against Ludveck on best. Even two steps down is 99% listed, or 99.99% true, or 99.980001% chance of hitting twice. So .019999% chance of problems. Except oh yeah, that's only if Elincia doesn't pull off her str proc. So .00699965% chance of problems. And that's just 1 level. And that's assuming Neal is two steps lower in bio than Ludveck. Considering it's probably more likely he's at worst 1 step down, and that's 100%, I'd say it cuts down the chance of an issue even lower.

Basically, Calill helps out (unless you send Elincia and Haar, I guess, but since a Haar miss still involves a much higher chance of death than the Elincia + Nealuchi + Calill idea, I'd say not to bother.)

(Doing for completeness' sake, since France has given in on this point.

[grandjackal]

How can you accurately measure things when you are purposefully leaving things out of the scope?

It's a matter of maintaining an appropriate balance between perfect accuracy, and meaningful debate. Nobody really wants a tier list where Eddie, BK, Nolan, Nephenee/Brom etc are auto-Top tier just because the game becomes impossible if they aren't around. The compromise position is to give them credit for being good at reducing turn counts and maximizing efficiency in those chapters, and then moving on.

That's the thing though, there is a difference between impossible to complete and impossible to do it quickly. BK it is literally impossible for 1-9 to be completed without him. We can't measure what is basically a chapter made specifically for him to solo. It's more of a helping Miccy pad out her levels chapter. A bonus stage if you will. It will go no faster or slower, since the only speed setting is basically BK solo.

On the other hand, Brom actually could do 2-1 by himself, it's just a crapload slower. Thus Nephenee actually has some effect on the speed of this chapter, thus we measure. t's better they work together basically. Brom and Neph here is not a major gap between them until you consider the boss. Brom is better, but he can't go through it quickly without help, or at least not if we want all the resources.

It is not the same for Eddie. Eddie could practically do 1-P alone and it wouldn't go any slower, aside from the boss of which Leo would help just as much as Miccy, but it doesn't stop the fact that he could do it by himself, while the other two can't, since Miccy gets OHKOd and Leo would be stuck in an infinite loop of self healing-getting hit-self healing-getting hit. Eddie is not just better than them this chapter, he is noticeably better. You can't complete it quickly without him. Not using him is simply slower. 1-9 can't possibly go faster because theres only one guy giving hte map any speed at all. 2-1 can't go faster as not using both peasants is simply slower. 1-P, a quick finish is dependent on Eddie. For someone like Calill she isn't needed for a quick finish, just a safer quick finish. Haar could do the same thing Calill could with a steel axe with better accuracy, just Calill hiittng him with a meteor allows more room for error.

Does this mean Eddie will go to top tier? Fuck no, no way in hell. It's just 1 chapter.

[Silith]

Use Edward in chapter 1-P only to weaken enemies and finish them off with Micaiah or Leonardo who are both much MUCH better units!

[Narga_Rocks]

What gives such a gap between Vanilla Soren and Transfer Soren when Transfer Soren only has +2 Mag, Res and skl, which aren't exatcly his problem stats. Nothing is really Solved by the transfer, so I'd put the two in the same spot.

skl/res insta-cap. Mag caps in two levels 64% of the time, and three levels most of the other times. Basically from base Soren any time he gets close to the next level at the end of a chapter he can already start bexping, in other words earlier slow-playing and more speed earlier. At this point it's basically a race to see if he can get to 22 AS to double 18 AS enemies before that class of enemies mostly reaches 19 AS, and similar situations with hitting 21 AS and 23AS. Chances are, he's doubling a lot more generals/paladins with the transfer than without. Considering how a forge lets him ORKO just about anything he doubles (except bishops, but sages fall to him too) it's not hard to imagine him moving up a little. Question becomes did he jump too much?

Transfer Brom > Vanilla Taur? Brom's speed is now semi-fixable and his def has improved too. At least he shouldn't be doubled in part 3 or pre 4-E, unlike before. I suppose it's very debateable.

I like it. Also, more speed lets him double the volunteers and some sages in 2-1 and 2-2. Not much, but not nothing. And 18 AS prevents doubling from non-swordmasters until like 3-10. Surely he'll hit 19 AS by then. Skill makes him miss less, 36hp/23 def is getting good, and he still has that 60% def growth and 80% hp growth. Those are pretty nice. Also, I don't see why he can't get hp with a seraph robe. Even str isn't out of the realm of possibility. But I guess that and speed at the same time are impossible with all the KW he needs. He'd have to focus on specific weapons and attack specific classes at level up time and use KW for almost all his levels.

Still, hp + skl + spd + def means at level 7 he has 45 hp and 26 def. Caps defence around level 13 or 14 and skill at level 17. Sadly spd is only .05 better than res, but it's still a good chance of boosting speed at level 17 and beyond, but his tier 2 cap is a pathetic 22 AS (level 16 with transfer). Even Ilyana gets a 24 cap for tier 2. Still, I suppose he can crown at level 16 without losing much, and all that extra time for possible bexp probably fixes his str. Transfer Brom's 16/1 is probably better than Vanilla Brom's 20/1. Not sure if he can pull 26 speed to double tigers in 4-5, though, but at least a third of them should have 20 AS and level 17/4 Brom has 51hp and 34 def, so he's probably better against tigers than Tauroneo could ever hope to be. And since he'll probably have 30 str or even 31 at this point, it's not bad.

Also, shouldn't Transfer Boyd and Vanilla Boyd be in the same place as I can't see Transfer Boyd >>> Vanilla Boyd.

Not sure. Anyone care enough to find out how quickly Transfer Boyd can 2HKO with the killer axe? 2HKO with it rather than 3HKO with it means he doesn't take as much of a hit in damage dealt if he fails to crit since a 2HKO is already helpful to a lot of units that want to KO what he leaves behind. Including himself on player phase if he failed to crit a fresh enemy on enemy phase. Also, he caps hp much sooner, though since spd is in a tie for 3rd after capping hp, not sure if it matters for bexp. Also, since his str is higher maybe he can ORKO some things sooner while holding killer axe so that he still 2HKOs other things? Not sure. Anyway, he'll 2HKO more stuff with a hand axe as well, and probably ORKO the sages sooner. Maybe even before forges, if he can get his speed up fast enough. Well, not sure, really, but Red Fox of Fire can explain when she shows up.

[grandjackal]

Use Edward in chapter 1-P only to weaken enemies and finish them off with Micaiah or Leonardo who are both much MUCH better units!

...Uhhhh.....

1. You do realize this means you have to use Eddie to complete these means, right?

2. How is Leo a better unit?

[Narga_Rocks]

Use Edward in chapter 1-P only to weaken enemies and finish them off with Micaiah or Leonardo who are both much MUCH better units!

2. How is Leo a better unit?

1-E, 3-6, 3-13. Arguably 3-12. Doesn't face counters when gumming, more flexibility in positioning when finishing off a weakened enemy.

Not saying it makes him better, just saying that it's enough for some people to make the argument. Also, 2mt > 8hit in more situations than 8hit > 2mt, probably. Nolan is a possible exception, though. Good think Ed + Leo + Aran aren't likely to all be in play at once. He gets all three options that are possible for the other aspect of the support provided he gets defence.

[grandjackal]

Use Edward in chapter 1-P only to weaken enemies and finish them off with Micaiah or Leonardo who are both much MUCH better units!

2. How is Leo a better unit?

1-E, 3-6, 3-13. Arguably 3-12. Doesn't face counters when gumming, more flexibility in positioning when finishing off a weakened enemy.

Not saying it makes him better, just saying that it's enough for some people to make the argument. Also, 2mt > 8hit in more situations than 8hit > 2mt, probably. Nolan is a possible exception, though. Good think Ed + Leo + Aran aren't likely to all be in play at once. He gets all three options that are possible for the other aspect of the support provided he gets defence.

I can see part 3, but how in god's green earth is he better 1-E?

Also, you don't really need to level Leo to put his affinity to use, which basically means he doesn't need to be given kills. Not that he really levels into anything level, all he needs to do to be amazing in part 3 is seal at level 10.

...I dunno. Part 3 DB, would you say Leo is capable of making it go faster? Cause if so, I see again no reason for him to be below Rolf. Honestly, what does Rolf speed up? At least Leo needs minimal effort to become hax part 3 DB compared to Rolf needing...far more.

[Narga_Rocks]

Use Edward in chapter 1-P only to weaken enemies and finish them off with Micaiah or Leonardo who are both much MUCH better units!

2. How is Leo a better unit?

1-E, 3-6, 3-13. Arguably 3-12. Doesn't face counters when gumming, more flexibility in positioning when finishing off a weakened enemy.

Not saying it makes him better, just saying that it's enough for some people to make the argument. Also, 2mt > 8hit in more situations than 8hit > 2mt, probably. Nolan is a possible exception, though. Good think Ed + Leo + Aran aren't likely to all be in play at once. He gets all three options that are possible for the other aspect of the support provided he gets defence.

I can see part 3, but how in god's green earth is he better 1-E?

Also, you don't really need to level Leo to put his affinity to use, which basically means he doesn't need to be given kills. Not that he really levels into anything level, all he needs to do to be amazing in part 3 is seal at level 10.

...I dunno. Part 3 DB, would you say Leo is capable of making it go faster? Cause if so, I see again no reason for him to be below Rolf. Honestly, what does Rolf speed up? At least Leo needs minimal effort to become hax part 3 DB compared to Rolf needing...far more.

Last time we were talking about Leo I specifically told you he needs to be 15/1. If he's not doubling tigers, he's not amazing. It helps if he's 19/1 or whatever it was and can actually 4HKO them, but with ~90% crit (assuming wrath) and dropping them to like 4 hp or something silly (after one crit and one normal hit) it doesn't matter much if he's not 19/1. At anything less than 15 AS pre-lugh he's not doubling tigers, hence one shot at critting to leave them with >15 hp anyway and if he doesn't crit he does like 11 damage or something. Probably less since a 10/1 Leo has less str. His usefulness is basically cut down to attacking untransformed laguz and hitting them hard but still not KOing them. Also, he needs to find a level 14 Cat if he wants to get down to wrath hp instead of dying or if he wants to 'tank' with his ability to not counter and then attack other things if he gets healed or if the cat is untransformed (doesn't need trading). I suppose he might have enough mt to 3HKO a cat, so at least he's over 60% on killing them, but that's not as useful as tiger-rape. Especially since when he doesn't crit they still have >20 hp remaining.

And 1-E involves Ed having almost no avo of any meaning and needing to be promoted because of all the 17 AS enemies (though I suppose the 16AS enemies are doubled by a level 17/18 Ed, if it's possible to get him that high) and having about the same mt with steel sword/steel forge as Leo does with steel bow/steel forge. (Leo has water, Ed is stuck in light x earth if he wants to be decent later). Leo could potentially have more mt. Level 16 Leo vs. level 17 Ed has 1 more mt assuming a forge with the same bonus and Leo having an A support with notMicaiah and Eddie supporting Nolan.

Basically, they do about the same thing, probably only attack player phase since enemy phase is better spent using Volug or Sothe to weaken for the guys like Edward and Leo to get kills. I suppose the brave sword exists, but short of that Leo attacks from 2 range and doesn't need healing the entire chapter and does as much as Ed does if Ed doesn't get a brave, and does almost as much if he does get a brave. Of course, this assumes Leo is brought within 3 levels of Ed (no more than 3 levels down, otherwise Leo starts losing one-hit damage) and is given a more expensive forge.

As for whether or not it goes faster...raising Leo (to 19/1 for the 4HKO of 20 def tigers) means another DB probably didn't reach tier 2, so does Leo have a bigger effect than the other guy would have? Well, the goal is KOing laguz, and most of the time he'll do on his own what it takes 3 or 4 other guys to do: take out a tiger. But assuming an 11 turn clear he's probably only taking out 9 tigers at most, since the first turn has no wrath and 90% means ~9 out of 10 die. More turns, more kills, less turns, fewer kills. I'm not sure he's cutting more than 1 with his existence vs. some other dbers existence. Maybe 2. Rolf can get 61 mt easier than Shinon, though. Not sure if that will ever cut turns by that point considering the other units you can have. And he needs 20/14 or 20/15 just for 34 speed anyway.

I suppose he makes it easier to KO the hawks in 3-13, though, considering the archer on the ballista can miss. That isn't a turn thing, but it is an assurance of victory thing. You could maybe argue Leo > Rolf, but I like Rolf so I won't agree.

[Interceptor]

That's the thing though, there is a difference between impossible to complete and impossible to do it quickly.

It is not possible to clear 1-P without Eddie.

It is not the same for Eddie. Eddie could practically do 1-P alone and it wouldn't go any slower, aside from the boss [...]

Eddie could not solo 1-P at a fast enough pace. He has to spend his Player Phases healing himself, which robs him of the PP kills that speed completion. You need Micaiah here for the best turn outcome, and Leo to a lesser extent.

Does this mean Eddie will go to top tier? Fuck no, no way in hell. It's just 1 chapter.

If you understand the reason, why complain?

[Narga_Rocks]

That's the thing though, there is a difference between impossible to complete and impossible to do it quickly.

It is not possible to clear 1-P without Eddie.

It's insane but I don't see why not? Micaiah needs the draco, though, since she's your tank and can now take 2 hits without dying from 11mt enemies, which is probably important. I think it would take ~15 turns or more, but it's doable. I think it's possible to draw all the enemies one at a time and never two, and hopefully if she must draw two it will be two of the five 11mt enemies instead of at least one of the two 12 mt enemies. Of course, if she procs speed then it can be an 11mt and 12 mt enemy. Before Leo appears, though, she's probably going to take a while to KO since she'll have to herb after every hit until the thing is in KO range, and she 4HKOs a bunch of these guys. Then Leo blocks while she takes his shield, then they trade positions again and both self-heal. Then Leo has to draw the boss and self heal once all the enemies are dead, while Micaiah pokes at the boss with a 3HKO, hopefully he won't self-heal at 7 hp if she proced mag and does 10 damage. Leo only does 6 damage so if Micaiah has 8 mag there could be a problem there. If Micky procs hp she can tank the boss, though.

Okay, maybe >20 turns.

edit: ~30

Also, it might be possible to have Leo attack once and Micky sacrifice for him if you get Micky to full hp before facing the boss. So 27 - 6 = 21 and Micky sacrifices. Then next turn Leo self heals and Micky attacks, 11hp. Then next turn Micky + Leo = dead boss. Surely he won't self heal if at 11 hp. And if Micky doesn't proc mag then the boss is at 12 hp and Micky + leo still= dead boss, and hopefully he won't self heal at 12.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

It's insane but I don't see why not?

Alright, I guess that 30-turn clear technically works, although I don't know what effect it has on the issue.

[Florete]

What gives such a gap between Vanilla Soren and Transfer Soren when Transfer Soren only has +2 Mag, Res and skl, which aren't exatcly his problem stats. Nothing is really Solved by the transfer, so I'd put the two in the same spot.

I think Narga got this one.

Transfer Brom > Vanilla Taur? Brom's speed is now semi-fixable and his def has improved too. At least he shouldn't be doubled in part 3 or pre 4-E, unlike before. I suppose it's very debateable.

Sounds alright to me.

Also, shouldn't Transfer Boyd and Vanilla Boyd be in the same place as I can't see Transfer Boyd >>> Vanilla Boyd.

I'm not sure how much of a difference it actually makes (hence the fairly small jump) but the Str boost turns a few 3HKOs into 2HKOs with the Killer Axe early on and in 3-1 with any support and a single Str proc (65% if he can get a level, practically 100% if it's BEXP) he can start 3HKOing Generals as well, meaning a crit will kill. I'm not sure if this is valuable enough to put him above others, but this and the quicker HP cap for possible BEXP slowplaying is what made me feel they at least wouldn't likely be equal.

...I dunno. Part 3 DB, would you say Leo is capable of making it go faster? Cause if so, I see again no reason for him to be below Rolf. Honestly, what does Rolf speed up? At least Leo needs minimal effort to become hax part 3 DB compared to Rolf needing...far more.

Rolf can actually turn into a pretty decent/good character mid-late part 3 and continues getting better from there. I'm not sure if he ever becomes better than someone like Shinon (though 75% Str vs. 40% smiles on Rolf for sure), but Marksman is just a pretty good class in general and Rolf also has his various Bonds to help both him and his brothers/Shinon.

This is what made Rolf (T) jump quite a bit. He's normally a character with a bad start that turns out good, but now that bad start has been minimized quite a bit. The only beating him in base Spd are Ike, Shinon, and Mia, he ties Oscar and Titania, but he has much higher experience gain. His base damage might be a bit lacking but 75% Str will cover that soon enough. I know you never argued against Rolf (T), I just wanted to bring it up.

[Interceptor]

@RFoF: so how are transfer characters being compared then? In a world with other transfers, or outside of it?

[Florete]

@RFoF: so how are transfer characters being compared then? In a world with other transfers, or outside of it?

Well, I brought that up before because I wasn't entirely sure myself. However, where exactly would it make a difference? You brought up Nephenee before, but unless you're crossing teams, you can still compare Nephenee (T) to Shinon or something and it doesn't really make a difference, does it?

If you're doing a cross-team comparison, I suppose that's where the problem arises. This is probably something that will need a decision made on rather than coming to a logical conclusion, isn't it?

[Narga_Rocks]

It's insane but I don't see why not?

Alright, I guess that 30-turn clear technically works, although I don't know what effect it has on the issue.

Well, it allows us to give an estimate on what he does for us in that chapter, except we should also compare what a Micaiah-less team does here, and as you said he uses a bunch of player phases self-healing so he's probably sitting at a 15 turn clear or more. Besides, there is only so much weight that should be placed in a single chapter anyway, and a safe clear of 2-E without Calill is probably a much bigger number than with as well.

[Interceptor]

Well, I brought that up before because I wasn't entirely sure myself. However, where exactly would it make a difference? You brought up Nephenee before, but unless you're crossing teams, you can still compare Nephenee (T) to Shinon or something and it doesn't really make a difference, does it?

If you're doing a cross-team comparison, I suppose that's where the problem arises. This is probably something that will need a decision made on rather than coming to a logical conclusion, isn't it?

What I meant is that we're never going to rank Nephenee in terms of (T) characters, because Nephenee's current ranking has been predicated on her comparisons against other non-transfers.

But there are two ways to rank Nephenee (T). First way is that we assume that other transfers are in play, like Mia or Ike or Titania. Nephenee (T) is not only nothing special in this scenario, but now we have more Speedwings to play with. Second way is that we assume that Nephenee (T) is the only transfer unit deployed in the GMs. Now she's really good relative to everyone, even some of the better units.

Basically I think it comes down to the cost of resources. If a lot of transfer people are deployed, the cost of things changes, which in turn changes how good someone is relative to the army.