OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

It still relies on him having the KW equipped almost every single time he gains experience.

I thought it only mattered on level ups.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Interceptor]

It's a little unclear. Vincent's explanation suggests it's calculated for every EXP-generating action, but logically it seems to me that such a thing would be difficult to actually keep track of over time.

[Narga_Rocks]

It still relies on him having the KW equipped almost every single time he gains experience.

I thought it only mattered on level ups.

I thought so too, until I read this:

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe9/fixed.htm

more in depth.

Growth points = Experience gained x (Unit's growth rate + Equipped weapon's alteration + Equipped items' alteration + Enemy class' alteration)

It suggests that growth points are earned every single time experience is gained. Not just on levels. Gain 50 experience points? Calculate the number of growth points based on your growths at the time. If you have 50% growth for some stat, you earn 25 growth points for that stat because of those 50 experience points.

Basically, as a unit gains experience, it gains growth points.

Level ups are only used for:

Stat rise during a Level Up = Growth points / 100

Every time it levels, the game looks to see if any stat has growth points >= 100 or >= 200 and doles out stat ups accordingly.

At least, that's what I read into it from what is listed.

Months ago, when we first did this, I thought what you are thinking now: that it only matters during level ups. I read it again a couple of weeks ago and I am pretty sure that what I said months ago was wrong.

Oh, we could ask Vincent for confirmation. I don't, however, think that it would be difficult to keep track of. At least, so long as the game uses real numbers rather than integers for the growth points. It just calculates every battle and adds up. It only keeps track of 8 things for each character. Growth points for each of the 8 stats.

[Vykan12]

Why is Soren only in middle? He is the best candidate for Neph's wrath (Rhys is probably the only one in contention, maybe Rolf too), which means he can 1HKO the enemy about 60% of the time, which is better than most GMs can say before they go into doubling mode. And, assuming he has any viability for an early crown, he'll quickly replace Rhys and Mist as the best staff user on the team. Taking a quick peek at the list, I don't see how Marcia's better at least.

[Shadow Mir]

Why is Soren only in middle? He is the best candidate for Neph's wrath (Rhys is probably the only one in contention, maybe Rolf too), which means he can 1HKO the enemy about 60% of the time, which is better than most GMs can say before they go into doubling mode. And, assuming he has any viability for an early crown, he'll quickly replace Rhys and Mist as the best staff user on the team. Taking a quick peek at the list, I don't see how Marcia's better at least.

First off, I don't see why Soren is the best candidate for Wrath. And I also fail to see why Rhys would want it when he gets doubled (and one-rounded) often. At any rate, I remember something being brought up about Soren facing crit chances, which Mist and Rhys don't have to worry about for the most part. Not helping is the fact that Soren only has 105% avoid growth. And there's the lack of BEXP hurting Soren's case...

Edited December 18, 2009 by Richter Renard

[nflchamp]

At the moment, I don't see any reason to take Neph's wrath off of Neph. There might be a reason to, but I doubt a back-liner with no innate crit and no weapons that can give me serious crit unless its a forge is one. Maybe Boyd or someone could make good use of it. I dunno.

[Vykan12]

Assuming cost isn't an issue, a forged thunder tome with just +crit gives Soren 83 crit. Moreover, Soren's going to be activating wrath after a single hit, whereas Boyd has to take at least 2-3+, depending on where we are in the game.

@Cynthia: It's the same idea as giving Micaiah wrath and having her sacrifice to 1 hp. Soren's frail anyway, so we're already walling him in, but this also creates a nice opportunity to give him 1337 offense at range on player phase.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Oliver

[Narga_Rocks]

Why is Soren only in middle? He is the best candidate for Neph's wrath (Rhys is probably the only one in contention, maybe Rolf too), which means he can 1HKO the enemy about 60% of the time, which is better than most GMs can say before they go into doubling mode. And, assuming he has any viability for an early crown, he'll quickly replace Rhys and Mist as the best staff user on the team. Taking a quick peek at the list, I don't see how Marcia's better at least.

First off, I don't see why Soren is the best candidate for Wrath. And I also fail to see why Rhys would want it when he gets doubled (and one-rounded) often. At any rate, I remember something being brought up about Soren facing crit chances, which Mist and Rhys don't have to worry about for the most part. Not helping is the fact that Soren only has 105% avoid growth. And there's the lack of BEXP hurting Soren's case...

I would think that his idea is to turn Soren into a wrath user like Micaiah. Get him hit down to 30% and then have at it. It still results in a poor man's Shinon (player phase only, but unlike Shinon he doesn't ORKO 100%). Also, what does Ilyana not 3HKO with a forge anyway? Probably some things, but if you are turning them into wrath-beasts anyway, I doubt it is very many so it is unimportant. So he's about equivalent with Ilyana for this task, greatly reducing any utility from the wrath idea. They both have about the same luck at first, so they both must stay away from halbs and swordmasters and snipers for their getting weakened phase. And also they must find something that 2HKOs them but causes >70% damage rather than, say, 60% damage. There isn't really much that 3HKOs them. Maybe physical + mage. Either that or get hit, herb for 10 hp, get hit again, and hopefully they'll get below 30%.

Also, considering the general strategy involved in GM chapters is to send Ike/Mia/Gatrie/Titania/Haar etc to tank up the enemy phase and kill half the enemies (or more) and the rest are weakened, being a 6 move wrath beast is less significant. Maybe on the snipers, since they aren't countered on enemy phase. Soren can step up next to them and roll the dice. Or Shinon can blitz them 100%.

As for a crown, he's not getting the 3-3 one. For two reasons: one, on HM he won't get to 25 (or even 24) AS by then, so he's not doing anything important with the crown. two, most of the time Gatrie is in play and thus he gets it. I suppose the fact that he'll face crit from some enemies is a problem too. Mist at least doesn't worry about it much in part 3. So even if he reaches 3HKOd by some enemies because of promo bonuses, he's still sometimes more limited than Mist. Plus, you have probably ~11 uses of Physic left from 2-E anyway. Unless you are burning it when Elincia could just Mend, of course. Later on there are more units that can grab a crown and start doubling.

Basically, he'll always be a poor man's Shinon until he starts doubling, and Ilyana can pretty much do the same thing with wrath anyway.

[Shadow Mir]

Assuming cost isn't an issue, a forged thunder tome with just +crit gives Soren 83 crit. Moreover, Soren's going to be activating wrath after a single hit, whereas Boyd has to take at least 2-3+, depending on where we are in the game.

@Cynthia: It's the same idea as giving Micaiah wrath and having her sacrifice to 1 hp. Soren's frail anyway, so we're already walling him in, but this also creates a nice opportunity to give him 1337 offense at range on player phase.

Umm... Cynthia? You don't mean me, do you? Because I don't think Cynthia posted in this topic recently. At any rate, as Narga said, Ilyana could also benefit from this wrath idea.

[Narga_Rocks]

Assuming cost isn't an issue, a forged thunder tome with just +crit gives Soren 83 crit. Moreover, Soren's going to be activating wrath after a single hit, whereas Boyd has to take at least 2-3+, depending on where we are in the game.

@Cynthia: It's the same idea as giving Micaiah wrath and having her sacrifice to 1 hp. Soren's frail anyway, so we're already walling him in, but this also creates a nice opportunity to give him 1337 offense at range on player phase.

Umm... Cynthia? You don't mean me, do you? Because I don't think Cynthia posted in this topic recently. At any rate, as Narga said, Ilyana could also benefit from this wrath idea.

20/1 Ilyana has 25 mt with a forged thunder, and 27 mt with forged fire (but 5 less crit, along with whatever skill/2 disadvantage there may be for a little while). Generals are basically the ones with the best hp/res combo. In 3-3 28 mt will 3HKO almost all of them. Halbs only need 26. 27 mt and 26 mt even get a fair number of them when you include reinforcements.

Even in 3-5 the generals only need 29 mt, and the majority still need just 28 mt. In 3-8 you finally see some that actually need 30 mt. But half still need just 29.

3-10 less than half of them need 31, the rest 30. 3-11 there are 4 that need 32. The other 4 need either 31 or 30. Even in 3-E there are just 4 that need 32. The other 7 need anywhere from 29 to 31.

Oh, and since halbs and warriors and snipers and paladins all have less res and less hp (except warriors that have a little more hp and a lot less res) it means that Ilyana can pick up a forged thunder for almost all of them and pull similar crit to Soren. But the difference between, say, 70% crit and 80% crit isn't all that much, especially when you question how often they are attacking full hp enemies. In fact, I'd argue that this supplies reason to close the gap between Ilyana and Soren. One of the biggest complaints about Ilyana in part 3 is that she has 5 to 8 less mt than Soren at any given moment. Gap widens until Soren caps and then quickly closes to like 3 or 4. Well, supports, but still. Anyway, if the difference of 7 damage bothers people, 5 to 10 less crit when they are mainly wrathing should mean that the difference is less significant than before.

Oh, Ilyana has 17.8 skill at 20/1. Soren has 21 skill at base. Probably 22 skill by the time she appears. He caps at 23, so his base crit is not going beyond 11 until promotion. Ilyana starts with 9, probably. So I should say 0 to 7 less crit, because sometimes she'd need fire. So 2 at first, 7 on generals, then it quickly drops to 1 and 6, then 0 and 5, then just 0 because she's 3HKOing everything with thunder anyway.

Also, I didn't look at sages/bishops because they should either ORKO 100% or let some other unit attack the mage/bishop, considering how so many units are 2HKOing and doubling mages anyway.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Vykan12]

It still results in a poor man's Shinon (player phase only, but unlike Shinon he doesn't ORKO 100%).

Hold up, when does Shinon ever ORKO 100% (save 4-E obviously)? He consistently fails to ORKO before the silencer shows up, and will always have issues with the more durable physical enemy types.

*Ilyana*

First off, Ilyana needs to be raised, which is unlikely given her ranking in lower-mid. And even if she is, there's no chance in hell she'll be 20/1. I'm quite sure you're aware how scarce EXP is in the DB, and even staple units like Nolan have trouble promoting by 1-E. Anyway, assuming we do use her and she's 16/1, she's going to have a truckload of problems regardless. 26 hp/6 def is very easy to 1HKO, which defeats the purpose of getting her to wrath hp in the first place. She also only has 55 base hit (Ike's leadership factored in), and 135 hit +- bio can stand to miss. Not a big deal, as we can just add hit to our thunder forge, but then it gets mighty expensive. Just +3 hit and +15 crit costs 3608, and adding 5 mt makes that 5808g. That's already more than a blue gem.

All to say, I suppose wrath!Ilyana works to some extent, but putting it on Soren is just far more practical.

Also, considering the general strategy involved in GM chapters is to send Ike/Mia/Gatrie/Titania/Haar etc to tank up the enemy phase and kill half the enemies (or more) and the rest are weakened

Why would you assume that? There's many different ways to play efficiently. Relying on player phase dominance is just as viable.

As for a crown, he's not getting the 3-3 one.

There's one in 3-5.

For two reasons: one, on HM he won't get to 25 (or even 24) AS by then, so he's not doing anything important with the crown.

The whole reason we're promoting him is staves.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Oliver

[Shadow Mir]

There's one in 3-5.

I thought that one was only in the Japanese version?

[Narga_Rocks]

It still results in a poor man's Shinon (player phase only, but unlike Shinon he doesn't ORKO 100%).

Hold up, when does Shinon ever ORKO 100% (save 4-E obviously)? He consistently fails to ORKO before the silencer shows up, and will always have issues with the more durable physical enemy types.

Um, he is pretty consistent on warriors forever. He only has slight issues with halbs. Steel Bow forge gets him by until the Silencer. Eventually he caps and can bexp for str, but until then a +mt support lets him get the halbs. Of course, he doesn't get Generals (like, until the Double Bow), but you can't have everything.

I'll consider pulling numbers if you insist, but otherwise, trust me, he's only got slight issues with halbs and he 3HKOs Generals. You could even give him wrath if you are worried, and he can have 15 (skill/2) + 50 (wrath) + 10 (sniper) + 15 (forge) = 90 crit. And he doubles, so if you are really worried about his lack of ORKOing Generals, he'll be pulling much higher proc rates than Soren in two hits, and he'll have better than Soren for one hit as well. You can even give him crossbow while he is getting weakened because it takes longer. Oh, and disarm is 10 capacity, so while he is getting weakened you can attempt to pick up some weapons.

*Ilyana*

First off, Ilyana needs to be raised, which is unlikely given her ranking in lower-mid. And even if she is, there's no chance in hell she'll be 20/1. I'm quite sure you're aware how scarce EXP is in the DB, and even staple units like Nolan have trouble promoting by 1-E. Anyway, assuming we do use her and she's 16/1, she's going to have a truckload of problems regardless. 26 hp/6 def is very easy to 1HKO, which defeats the purpose of getting her to wrath hp in the first place. She also only has 55 base hit (Ike's leadership factored in), and 135 hit +- bio can stand to miss. Not a big deal, as we can just add hit to our thunder forge, but then it gets mighty expensive. Just +3 hit and +15 crit costs 3608, and adding 5 mt makes that 5808g. That's already more than a blue gem.

All to say, I suppose wrath!Ilyana works to some extent, but putting it on Soren is just far more practical.

She starts at level 12. I'd say 18/1 minimum, or you could just use some bexp when she shows up and let her bring a seal. She'll be 20/1 before 3-2 is half over if you really wanted.

Also, considering the general strategy involved in GM chapters is to send Ike/Mia/Gatrie/Titania/Haar etc to tank up the enemy phase and kill half the enemies (or more) and the rest are weakened

Why would you assume that? There's many different ways to play efficiently. Relying on player phase dominance is just as viable.

Not quite. Enemies move when you get in their range, and Soren only has 6 move (and can't use Celerity + Wrath). Unless your plan is to use units that can't counter anything on enemy phase, many of them will end up weakened. And since Soren obviously isn't going to be doing that drawing...

Now, sometimes enemies will be nice and move even when they can't attack. Especially reinforcements. And in some of those situations you will need some player phase pwning, but it's not nearly as frequent as Soren needs for it to help him much.

As for a crown, he's not getting the 3-3 one.

There's one in 3-5.

I'd go with stealing the 3-6 crown, much as I'd like the 3-5 one to exist. But I'd rather give it to someone that will help more offensively (especially on enemy phase), like Haar or Titania if she proc'd speed twice by now. We already have two healers, and Mist already has enough durability to get by. Also, he can't wrath and be the more durable staff user, and we are hardly limited for slots enough to need to make our healer also an attacker.

For two reasons: one, on HM he won't get to 25 (or even 24) AS by then, so he's not doing anything important with the crown.

The whole reason we're promoting him is staves.

So we like bad plans. Okay.

There's one in 3-5.

I thought that one was only in the Japanese version?

Yeah, the only ones in N.A are 3-3, 3-6, 3-9, 3-11, 3-12. That's it. Didn't the Japanese one have, like, over 10 (MJEmirzian says 13)? What happened to them all?

"8 crowns by Part 4 and get 2 in 4-P, 1 in 4-1, and 2 in 4-2." Almost all gone. I mean, I know they were required for the final promotion and now they aren't, but still, cry. So many opportunity for early promotions lost.

Anyway, for this Soren thing I'll wait to see where other people toss their hats before saying anything more.

[-Cynthia-]

Well since I was brought up already I might as well add my $.02

Frankly, most of this seems to come down to the cost of an early Crown for Soren. With it, he's pulling weight among the top tier GMs, since he has similar/better offense for a while, plus 1-2 range and staves (his durability still leaves a lot to be desired though). Of course taking a Crown from Gatrie especially, though Titania and Haar also get fair bonuses, is problematic as well.

Personally I'd be inclined to say Soren>Mist. While Mist's healing is better than Soren's chip damage, Soren can be a healer soon enough, but Mist really has very little potential as a combat unit without a ton of babying, not to mention Soren actually wins durability for the majority of this comparison. I'd hesitant to say Soren> Boyd or Mordy though, because they have durability and aren't requiring a Crown.

Just a note on Soren's doubling potential, it can happen post-Crown, but we'll need to use BEXP. He's a good candidate for it though, considering how he caps stats fairly easily.

Edited December 18, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[RNG Princess]

As a healer Mist's rank B staff > rank E staff

her Valkyrie promotion benefits her even better as a healer, Soren is better as a fighter. His magic is tempting though, but he's more convenient as a fighter.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well since I was brought up already I might as well add my $.02

Frankly, most of this seems to come down to the cost of an early Crown for Soren. With it, he's pulling weight among the top tier GMs, since he has similar/better offense for a while, plus 1-2 range and staves (his durability still leaves a lot to be desired though). Of course taking a Crown from Gatrie especially, though Titania and Haar also get fair bonuses, is problematic as well.

Personally I'd be inclined to say Soren>Mist. While Mist's healing is better than Soren's chip damage, Soren can be a healer soon enough, but Mist really has very little potential as a combat unit without a ton of babying, not to mention Soren actually wins durability for the majority of this comparison. I'd hesitant to say Soren> Boyd or Mordy though, because they have durability and aren't requiring a Crown.

Just a note on Soren's doubling potential, it can happen post-Crown, but we'll need to use BEXP. He's a good candidate for it though, considering how he caps stats fairly easily.

Well, we know enemies tend to have 13 to 17 luck along the way. 13 near the start of part 3 is more common, and 17 later. Stupid Generals tend to have 2 more than the rest, as if they weren't annoying already.

Soren will probably have 22 skill by the time Neph appears, so 11 + 20 + 50 = 81 crit with a max crit thunder tome. Results in 68 or less crit. Now, that's great for if you can go up against multiple enemies per turn, but we are talking one guy a turn. And this is at a time when you can just tank away the enemies on enemy phase. Considering in 3-6 you don't have any alternative but to rely on player phase offence, if this wrath idea so that Soren can kill one enemy 2 out of 3 turns on average when you have tonnes of units to weaken things on enemy phase resulting in everyone being able to KO something on player phase actually moves Soren up, I say instant mid-tier for Leo because of his part 3 wrath ability when your units don't have the option to do what completely screws over any utility that Soren could get from this idea. Oh, and ~90% ORKO of tigers, yay. 9 out of 10 instead of ~7 out of 10. Also, anyone want to guess at Shinon's proc rate for ORKOing Generals if he has wrath active? I'll give you a hint, it's better than Leo's proc rate on tigers.

Also, when there are multiple units that use that crown better than Soren, it means gains - opportunity cost < 0. ie: negative economic profit. Giving him a crown doesn't move him up at all. If we accept that there are better users of it out there, he doesn't gain anything by grabbing one. The fact that there is more than one better destination for the crown also means we can't even say "what if unit X is not in play", since it is more like "what if units X, Y, Z are not in play".

As for his doubling potential, he needs level 10 before bexp will even increase spd. Until then, it simply might (but less than half the time anyway). Also, def is 25% while spd is 35%, and he has 40% hp, 35% luck as well. In other words, he's looking at probably 4 levels of bexp to get 3 points, and at level 10 he only has a 57% of having at least 20 speed anyway. So how quick is he getting 5 levels to level 10? And then are we seriously considering dumping 9300 bexp on him to get him up to 23 AS for crowning? Only since spd will probably miss once, try 12600 bexp. Maybe more if he only has 19 spd (though maybe less if he somehow pulled 21 AS at level 10). I'd suggest slowplaying will happen at this point to reduce the cost, but it also means that it takes longer for him to get to 23 AS as a result.

And this all ignores the fact that there are usually at least 11 slots to fill. 9 combat units + Rhys and Mist. There is no real need of a 10th combat unit, so suggesting we crown him for staves and then have 10 combat units + Rhys or Mist doesn't really make sense. Especially when you consider that 2 healers is useful quite frequently, so at that point he's just doing what Mist and Rhys were doing quite well on their own. Also, exp split, if anyone cares. Units get to a higher level faster if you aren't dragging around 10 combat units. Allows more paragon use for CRK or DB units that are being used in part 4.

[Jaybee]

As a healer Mist's rank B staff > rank E staff

her Valkyrie promotion benefits her even better as a healer, Soren is better as a fighter. His magic is tempting though, but he's more convenient as a fighter.

The only real benefit this gives Mist is Physic, while Soren pretty much will heal to full HP with his Heal staff.

[Florete]

Yeah, not quite buying this stuff with Soren. First off, I see no reason to take Wrath off Nephenee in the first place. Second, what do we need a third healer for? Sure, it might be cool to have a healer who can attack as well as heal, but as Narga pointed out, I hardly find replacing our 11th string fighter for a healer to be a big deal.

With it, he's pulling weight among the top tier GMs, since he has similar/better offense for a while,

Lolwut? With just an early crown? He still doesn't double and his durability (I know you mentioned this but seriously...) is still pretty bad. That's not = Top tiers.

Most definitely not buying Soren > Mist.

[Vykan12]

Um, he is pretty consistent on warriors forever. He only has slight issues with halbs. Steel Bow forge gets him by until the Silencer. Eventually he caps and can bexp for str, but until then a +mt support lets him get the halbs. Of course, he doesn't get Generals (like, until the Double Bow), but you can't have everything.

Agreed.

You could even give him wrath if you are worried, and he can have 15 (skill/2) + 50 (wrath) + 10 (sniper) + 15 (forge) = 90 crit.

The problem with wrath is that it takes forever to activate on durable units. Shinon has 43 hp/20 def/78 avo at base, 50 hp/45 def/160 avo growths and an affinity that gives purely defensive bonuses. If that weren’t enough, he isn’t usually taking counters unless we purposely make him attack every sage and sniper in the level. I don’t think Shinon can manage to get in wrath hp until maybe the end of a chapter unless you’re purposely making him tank enemies he shouldn’t.

You can even give him crossbow while he is getting weakened because it takes longer.

The process of weakening is inefficient though.

She starts at level 12. I'd say 18/1 minimum, or you could just use some bexp when she shows up and let her bring a seal. She'll be 20/1 before 3-2 is half over if you really wanted.

While 6 levels in 8 chapters doesn’t sound like much, she starts off 3 levels higher than the average enemy in 1-3. That means less than 5 exp per hit and less than 20 per kill. Moreover, she basically never doubles (the only time she does it is in fact in 1-3 by the enemies weighed down by steel) and we can’t even put a 15 capacity skill on Ilyana yet due to being tier 1. Trouble keeping up + trouble killing + bad exp gain does not fare well for her.

Not quite. Enemies move when you get in their range, and Soren only has 6 move (and can't use Celerity + Wrath). Unless your plan is to use units that can't counter anything on enemy phase, many of them will end up weakened. And since Soren obviously isn't going to be doing that drawing...

Everyone that 2HKOes attacks an enemy. On enemy phase, the weakened enemies all suicide into someone. You heal whoever’s injured and troop on. Also, if keeping up is a problem, you do have 3 mounts available for ferrying, and that number only increases when janaff/ulki/reyson show up.

I'd go with stealing the 3-6 crown, much as I'd like the 3-5 one to exist.

It’s listed on the site as hidden treasure. If it were an error I’m sure it would be corrected by now. I’ll be attempting to get it with Heather anyway, so that will be resolved soon enough.

First off, I see no reason to take Wrath off Nephenee in the first place.

The justification was offered in the thread. It improves Soren’s player phase offense moreso than it will help anyone else out.

Second, what do we need a third healer for?

We don’t. The idea is to have two better healers and bench Rhys.

---

Anyway, my argument has a tentative scope. I said I saw Soren rising above Marcia, and yet that hasn't come up whatsoever in the counters I've seen.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Oliver

[Florete]

It’s listed on the site as hidden treasure. If it were an error I’m sure it would be corrected by now. I’ll be attempting to get it with Heather anyway, so that will be resolved soon enough.

It's listed as:

Master Crown*1

And at the bottom of the page:

*1 Japanese version only

The justification was offered in the thread. It improves Soren’s player phase offense moreso than it will help anyone else out.

I got back late and skimmed most of it, so I probably missed that.

Anyway, my argument has a tentative scope. I said I saw Soren rising above Marcia, and yet that hasn't come up whatsoever in the counters I've seen.

Did you even compare him to Marcia? I know I only skimmed, but I remember seeing that mentioned only as a side comment anyway.

And I just remembered seeing this:

First off, Ilyana needs to be raised, which is unlikely given her ranking in lower-mid.

I don't like this form of reasoning. If she can use this tactic just as easily, why should she be sandbagged out of it just because of her current position? If this can raise Soren it can raise Ilyana, and then Ilyana will be more likely to be played as a result. Raising her becomes the only issue, but that shouldn't be nearly enough to deny her this.

Think about it. If we found some crazy tactic that no one knew before that would make Fiona worthy of High tier, would we deny her that simply because she's already in Bottom and therefore unlikely to be used in the first place? Of course not.

EDIT: Looking back, I don't see any justification given for Soren getting Wrath at all other than stating that he should get it. And my recollection of your Marcia comment was spot-on; all you said was that you don't see how she's higher. I'm not moving Soren up nearly a full tier based on this.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[nflchamp]

Not quite. Enemies move when you get in their range, and Soren only has 6 move (and can't use Celerity + Wrath). Unless your plan is to use units that can't counter anything on enemy phase, many of them will end up weakened. And since Soren obviously isn't going to be doing that drawing...

Everyone that 2HKOes attacks an enemy. On enemy phase, the weakened enemies all suicide into someone. You heal whoever’s injured and troop on. Also, if keeping up is a problem, you do have 3 mounts available for ferrying, and that number only increases when janaff/ulki/reyson show up.

The problem is, all those enemies who I could get into the range of but couldn't reach while killing stuff the turn before have already come and half killed themselves. So all those people who 2HKO just kill and are done with it.

As for the mounts and ferrying, well, the fact that none of them really suck and would rather be up front puts a halt on that really fast.

I'd go with stealing the 3-6 crown, much as I'd like the 3-5 one to exist.

It’s listed on the site as hidden treasure. If it were an error I’m sure it would be corrected by now. I’ll be attempting to get it with Heather anyway, so that will be resolved soon enough.

3-5

Wo Dao.........Bargains

Secret Book.........Bargains

Arms Scroll.........Bargains

Reaper Card.........Bargains

Corrosion.........Base conversation

Vulnerary.........Enemy Lance Paladin

Coin.........Enemy Thunder Sage

Energy Drop.........Enemy Lombroso (steal)

Olivi Grass.........Hidden treasure

Master Crown.........Hidden treasure (Japanese version only)

Coin.........Hidden treasure (x3)

Edit: I wish spaces wouldn't be removed from things like this.

---

Anyway, my argument has a tentative scope. I said I saw Soren rising above Marcia, and yet that hasn't come up whatsoever in the counters I've seen.

That's because not many people think Soren is getting any gain out of this, much less enough to get all the way to the top of mid. I'll give it the potential to put him above Calill at the moment.

Edited December 18, 2009 by nflchamp

[Vykan12]

Did you even compare him to Marcia? I know I only skimmed, but I remember seeing that mentioned only as a side comment anyway.

You can't really compare them directly because they only share availability in part 4. Regardless, it must be well known that the bulk of Marcia's use is chipping in combat in part 2 and 3-9, which is quite easily worse than reliably killing an enemy every few turns + healing. I don't see any need to expand further, but I'll compare their part 4 combat stats if you think that's relevant.

[Florete]

Did you even compare him to Marcia? I know I only skimmed, but I remember seeing that mentioned only as a side comment anyway.

You can't really compare them directly because they only share availability in part 4. Regardless, it must be well known that the bulk of Marcia's use is chipping in combat in part 2 and 3-9, which is quite easily worse than reliably killing an enemy every few turns + healing. I don't see any need to expand further, but I'll compare their part 4 combat stats if you think that's relevant.

True, but I can't put him above her without something to go on. Before it was just "He can go above Marcia" without anything to support what makes him better.

That aside, I really think this Wrath thing is being overrated. First off, he has to get down to 1/3 or less of his HP, which might take a few turns since this isn't always the most efficient thing to do and it probably has to be just one enemy. Then when it activates it only even matters if he wouldn't have killed the enemy anyway, which is possible since a lot of people don't always get clean kills (Mia, Titania, Boyd, etc.). So he has to critical and it has to be on stuff he wouldn't have already killed, and he doesn't have the full map to do it. All this while being more frail than Mist. Oh, and if you want to keep this up when he promotes (whenever that is) you have to trade out every time he heals so he doesn't recover and get to more than 1/3 HP.

Let's put it into practice. Let's say he uses Elthunder and has already gained one Skl for pretty much the max crit he can get (21). Wrath boosts it to 71. Let's say he's ready to put it to use on turn 3, so on a 10 turn map he has 8 turns to use it. Let's also say that 1/2 the time he 1. would've killed the enemy anyway due to it being weakened, 2. couldn't attack because he'd be in danger, or 3. couldn't reach an enemy due to low move, so 4 turns of Wrathing. In this scenario, he only actually "uses" Wrath 2 or 3 times on any given map.

And then there's the competition. It's already been stated that Ilyana can do this practically just as well. Rolf probably can as well given his base durability isn't much better and although he has an awesome HP growth his Def is lacking. He also has more innate crit (Weapons aside, Soren starts at 10 and caps at 11. Rolf starts at 20) and likely turns out better in the end. Shinon might be able to but that's tougher given his wtf tankiness. And then there's Nephenee, who has it free and also has more crit (base of 14 and caps at 18) and can use it with Killer Lance and stuff like Adept. I suppose Rhys might even be able to use it if you can find an enemy that doesn't ORKO him.

As for Marcia, just saying "chipping" is an understatement. She's one of two fighters for half of 2-P, the other of whom is no better. She's the only flier in 2-3 and has access to the Killer Lance, Brave Lance, and Horseslayer to make her very useful there. Her 2-E is a bit more limited but she's still useful for tossing Javelins and doing hit-and-run stuff since you pretty much need everyone you can get there. Then in 3-9 her flight comes in handy again and she's the only one with a realistic chance of doubling anything. Those first four maps alone probably make her comparable to or even better than Soren.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[-Cynthia-]

Lolwut? With just an early crown? He still doesn't double and his durability (I know you mentioned this but seriously...) is still pretty bad. That's not = Top tiers.

Most definitely not buying Soren > Mist.

Except that unlike the other top tiers, he can also heal, in addition to having great offense...with some BEXP. Unless you're saying healign isn't valuable, which makes me question Mist> Soren even more so.

Even if Soren doesn't get enough Spd via BEXP to double halbs/warriors he can still ORKO Generals post-Crown, which is pretty special because even Ike/Shinon etc. can't do that.

I'm also not buying the argument that somehow Soren getting a Crown is a negative while Gatrie getting one isn't. Sure, Gatrie is a better unit overall, but I think if his gains with a Crown are better than Soren's gains, since they both gain Spd, but Soren also gains staves. It's not like we're even necesarily using Gatrie every playthrough, when we aren't using him is the cost really so high?

Also, Soren vs. Mist

Base Mist w/ Florete

28 HP 22 Atk 15 AS 7 Def 16 Res 46 Avo

Base Soren w/ Elwind

28 HP 29 Atk 18 AS 9 Def 21 Res 47 Avo

Obviously Soren stomps Mist as an offensive unit here.

Durability wise, only the SMs ORKO Soren. All the Halbs, Warriors, and Snipers ORKO Mist, and any two combinations of units kills her (Soren for example, can take a counter from a Mage and another attack).

Now Mist's healing is more useful than Soren's chip damage, but she also requires more protection. Soren's chip damage is pretty useful here anyway, since the only units doubling are Mia, Shinon, and Ike (Titania/Oscar on really slow stuff) and the only things getting ORKOd by Mages (Ike can ORKO some halbsI think but w/e). Since Soren takes about half the HP off of most enemies, this is pretty good. So I guess we can argue that Mist> Soren for 3-P, 3-1, 3-2, 3-3, but it's not a huge gap.

Now let's Crown Soren after 3-3, won't even give him any EXP. And 5/0 Mist is actually pretty generous assuming she's healing instead of failing at combat, that's one level a chapter which means we're taking like 9 turns each chapter which is pretty long but w/e.

10/1 Soren (forged fire)

30 HP 37 Atk 22 AS 10 Def 23 Res 57 Avo

5/0 Mist (Florete)

30 HP 25 Atk 17 AS 8 Def 18 Res 55 Avo

Soren can actually ORKO some Sages and Generals here, he doesn't even need the BEXP, though he can ORKO other things with some. Mist is still ORKOd by a number of things, some things that double her, some that just crush her HP/Def. Soren's durability is still relatively bad (though if I included supports I could bother calculating his Avo rate, which can be decent with an Ike support), but he's not getting ORKOd.

So from 3-4 to 3-E (I doubt Mist will promote before then), Soren is Mist with better durability and offense. The staff rank difference doesn't matter too much, Soren heals for enough due to his Mag anyway. There is the possibility of Mist using Physic before Soren gets his rank up I guess. Water and Dark are about equal as affinities, so I cannot see how Mist is better here.

Post promotion:

15/1 Mist (Florete)

38 HP 31 Atk 24 AS 16 Def 24 Res 74 Avo

10/8 Soren (forged fire)

37 HP 44 Atk 24 AS 16 Def 30 Res 65 Avo

I guess you could argue that I'm sandbagging Mist by keeping her with Florete, but if she's not attacking at 1-2 range like Soren that's a disadvantage since she'll counter less and end up taking counters (not good with her relatively poor durability). The only 1-2 range sword with more Mt is the Tempest Blade, which will give her hit issues and she's taking something from Mia/Zihark then.

Anyway, Mist and Soren are actually pretty close here--except for Atk. He beats her on non-mage enemies by 17 to 23 damage on average, which is pretty signficant, IE he can at least 2HKO.

Things change little for Endgame. Mist's Atk will go up for Alondite(and she will finally have a substantial durability lead), but so will Soren's with Rexcalibur and unlike Mist, he has very little competition for his SS Weapon.

So yeah, Soren >Mist as soon as he gets a Crown. Even if we don't give him the 3-3 crown, he can still get one by 3-7...he's still beating Mist in more chapters than she's beating him.

Oh, other utility. Mist gets a horse in Part 4 that actually makes her worse in 4-4. Soren can ORKO Pegs/Dracos with effective damage and has long-range tomes to kill Levail and whatnot. And yeah i didn't include supports, they have the same potential partners, add some Atk for both, Def for Mist and Avo for Soren.

[nflchamp]

Lolwut? With just an early crown? He still doesn't double and his durability (I know you mentioned this but seriously...) is still pretty bad. That's not = Top tiers.

Most definitely not buying Soren > Mist.

Except that unlike the other top tiers, he can also heal, in addition to having great offense...with some BEXP. Unless you're saying healign isn't valuable, which makes me question Mist> Soren even more so.

The problem is that, as the # of healers go up, the value of being able to heal goes down. So what is valuable suddenly becomes much less so when Soren gets it, as Rhys and Mist could already handle the healing.

Even if Soren doesn't get enough Spd via BEXP to double halbs/warriors he can still ORKO Generals post-Crown, which is pretty special because even Ike/Shinon etc. can't do that.

Okay.

I'm also not buying the argument that somehow Soren getting a Crown is a negative while Gatrie getting one isn't. Sure, Gatrie is a better unit overall, but I think if his gains with a Crown are better than Soren's gains, since they both gain Spd, but Soren also gains staves. It's not like we're even necesarily using Gatrie every playthrough, when we aren't using him is the cost really so high?

There's no way Soren is getting the 3-3 crown when Gatrie is in play. There is no way around the fact that Gatrie uses the crown much better than Soren (and everybody else). The crown is still difficult for Soren to get even when Gatrie isn't in play because someone like Titania wants it to ensure doubling. Titania gives us another excellent combat unit rather than a combat unit that is decent and has utility that we already had enough of. Admittedly, Titania taking both a speedwing and a crown is a bit costly for her, so that helps Soren's chances.

I don't really care about the rest of the post, as it is healing utility vs. superior, yet still mediocre, offense that is only likely to happen a small % of times.