OMG it's a tier list

[RNG Princess]

Leonardo is better than Ilyana? I wonder what the reasoning is.

[-Cynthia-]

The problem is that, as the # of healers go up, the value of being able to heal goes down. So what is valuable suddenly becomes much less so when Soren gets it, as Rhys and Mist could already handle the healing.

Yes, but doesn't this argument worth both ways? Since Soren can heal, that makes the value of Rhys and Mist's healing go down as well. Soren is actually better at it as well, since I would say better durability + existent offense > higher staff rank in this situation. The GMs only get one Physic until Part 4 shows up anyway (unless we transfer one over with Zihark/Jill, but that denies the DB a Physic and a fighter), and by part 4 Soren will have gained staff ranks himself.

Edited December 19, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Narga_Rocks]

The problem is that, as the # of healers go up, the value of being able to heal goes down. So what is valuable suddenly becomes much less so when Soren gets it, as Rhys and Mist could already handle the healing.

Yes, but doesn't this argument worth both ways? Since Soren can heal, that makes the value of Rhys and Mist's healing go down as well. Soren is actually better at it as well, since I would say better durability + existent offense > higher staff rank in this situation. The GMs only get one Physic until Part 4 shows up anyway (unless we transfer one over with Zihark/Jill, but that denies the DB a Physic and a fighter), and by part 4 Soren will have gained staff ranks himself.

Along with two that you can steal rather easily. At least one of which is definitely not inefficient to get. The one in 3-10 perhaps is, though I still think not.

As for the argument working both way, not really. The point of this argument is that crowning Soren is utterly and completely worthless, at least in comparison to sticking it on Gatrie/Haar/Titania/(even Oscar). You have two fully functional healers that are quite capable of fulfilling your healing needs. And better durability means some things 3RKO him instead of 2RKO. By the time Soren is capable of crowning, Mist should no longer be ORKOd by very much, just swordmasters. And Soren faces crit from them until the end of time (barring Fortune). But there are still enough enemies that 2RKO him that it isn't a significant improvement, especially considering he faces crit from halbs and snipers anyway (Mist doesn't in the case of halbs, and eventually won't in the case of snipers), so it's really just warriors (that probably have the mt to 2RKO him anyway) and paladins/generals against which he has potential wins in durability.

I said this before, having 9 attackers + Soren + one of Mist/Rhys is not significantly different from 9 attackers + Mist + Rhys. Not to mention that one of those 9 attackers would have a crown in the second group.

Oh, and crowning hurts his wrath potential. Most of the things that 2HKO him no longer bring him down to <30% hp, and the things that 3HKO him either have crit (potential goodbye Soren) or still mean he must be hit twice before wrath starts working. And then if you want him to actually heal, he's self-healing after each time he heals unless you constantly use some unit to switch out his staff for a weapon after he heals something. So after crowning he loses wrath, and basically becomes an additional healer with some advantages over Mist along with some disadvantages, and the team just lost a chance at receiving a much more proficient attacker from the crown than we get with wrath-less Soren (he can double most Generals through bexp anyway (and 23 AS cap typically does not get in the way), so any advantage from an early crown are washed away after all of 2 chapters max).

AKA, crown for Soren is a net negative. Unless you think Soren is the best candidate, he's a net negative because opportunity cost > gains. If you think he is #2 (he's not even close), then I suppose the whole "what if Gatrie isn't there" thing means he can get some small positive utility. But not much when you consider what number 1 could bring the times he is deployed. Then consider Soren is probably #4 or worse, and he's looking at "Wow, I'm like a minus 5 for this thing, woo!"

[Jaybee]

Leonardo is better than Ilyana? I wonder what the reasoning is.

Lugh + Beastfoe in 3-6/3-13 > being average in part 1 and sucky for the rest of the game.

[Narga_Rocks]

The problem is that, as the # of healers go up, the value of being able to heal goes down. So what is valuable suddenly becomes much less so when Soren gets it, as Rhys and Mist could already handle the healing.

Yes, but doesn't this argument worth both ways? Since Soren can heal, that makes the value of Rhys and Mist's healing go down as well. Soren is actually better at it as well, since I would say better durability + existent offense > higher staff rank in this situation. The GMs only get one Physic until Part 4 shows up anyway (unless we transfer one over with Zihark/Jill, but that denies the DB a Physic and a fighter), and by part 4 Soren will have gained staff ranks himself.

Missed this. How about stealing the physic with Heather in 3-7? No need to lose a fighter that way. The DB can keep both Jill and Zihark.

(Admittedly, it is probably better to have 2 physics in 3-13. Though that is only if you are being aggressive. Otherwise one physic for Micaiah and a mend for Laura is quite sufficient. 3-12 having no physic may be a problem depending on chosen strategy, though.

Edited December 20, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Vykan12]

Lugh + Beastfoe in 3-6/3-13 > being average in part 1 and sucky for the rest of the game.

Beastfoe's better on Nolan since he has more durability to apply it, and we won't be benching Nolan come part 4, so it also has long term benefits.

[grandjackal]

Lugh + Beastfoe in 3-6/3-13 > being average in part 1 and sucky for the rest of the game.

Beastfoe's better on Nolan since he has more durability to apply it, and we won't be benching Nolan come part 4, so it also has long term benefits.

Funny he's mentioned in this argument, cause his part 3 is not dependent on Beastfoe at all.

It's dependent on Wrath.

Anyways, I tried this before, it didn't work out too well. In fact, this is exactly what happened. Good luck proving Soren deserves a crown before Gat/Ti/Haar.

Which DOES make me cast a light of doubt on Gatrie. Level 10 ain't leveling too fast. Are we claiming BEXP here? Cause he needs 3 levels of it at least to cap his speed, and he needs to in order to do his doubling.

3 levels of BEXP is suddenly not too expensive for Gatrie? Could be used to make a post Skill+speed capping Oscar hit harder (defense is made up by his affinity and greater boosted luck), who would then be more mobile, especially after crowning. Could be used to further boosts Mia's Str faster. Makes us not even have to get Titania to level 20 to get the same results.

Perhaps it was another deal of that I simply wasn't there when the decision was made, but how is Gatrie getting those caps in relevent time over others, and what does he himself deserve said crown for over said others? How's he getting there, AND getting the crown by 3-3?

[Vykan12]

Funny he's mentioned in this argument, cause his part 3 is not dependent on Beastfoe at all.

It's dependent on Wrath.

What's so good about giving Nolan wrath? Assuming he gets 3HKOed by tigers and 4+HKOed by cats, then all it would do for him is give him a free kill every 3 or more attacks. Beastfoe + crossbow gives him not only a free kill every single attack, it also lets him attack at range on player phase if he doesn't need to heal.

[grandjackal]

Funny he's mentioned in this argument, cause his part 3 is not dependent on Beastfoe at all.

It's dependent on Wrath.

What's so good about giving Nolan wrath? Assuming he gets 3HKOed by tigers and 4+HKOed by cats, then all it would do for him is give him a free kill every 3 or more attacks. Beastfoe + crossbow gives him not only a free kill every single attack, it also lets him attack at range on player phase if he doesn't need to heal.

I meant Leo, I was responding to that question that asked what Leo was doing over Illyana. Someone responded Beastfoe, it was shown a while ago that Leo would put Wrath to just as good of use.

Sorry about the confusion.

[Narga_Rocks]

I kind of like the idea of beastfoe on Nolan as long as you have someone sit next to him to constantly switch out the bowgun for a bronze axe. He'll keep killing stuff with just about anything else, or at least risk critting the things. 15mt weapon (bronze axe) that can't crit is pretty fun.

And yeah, Leo can have wrath in 3-6 because it basically doesn't go to better use anywhere else. Micaiah comes close because she 2HKOs everything but she doesn't have +5 crit on Thani and doesn't have as much skill as Leo and doesn't have +10 crit from being a sniper and making a +5mt+15crit Light for this sole purpose when she spends most of her time healing is inefficient. Also, Leo doubles tigers so gets up past 90%. Even with a +15 crit on a forged Light Micaiah doesn't get much past 60%.

Nobody else has this kind of 2 range in the chapter and a way to get down below 30% hp, and all the 1 range users are crit or die on player phase this way and are positively suicidal on enemy phase. He gets wrath at nearly 0 opportunity cost. Beastfoe comes at the cost of not giving it to Nolan (or whoever else is the best for it if Nolan isn't being used).

[Vykan12]

I kind of like the idea of beastfoe on Nolan as long as you have someone sit next to him to constantly switch out the bowgun for a bronze axe.

What's the point of that? You should know by now that the key to beating this chapter (bar having the BK solo it, but that's obviously inefficient) is to minimize the amount of attacks your units face, and to only deploy durable frontliners. Once everyone's cornered in the water, or whatever defensive stance you take, nobody should be facing more than 2 attacks per turn unless their name is Volug or Bob Kibbles.

[Narga_Rocks]

I kind of like the idea of beastfoe on Nolan as long as you have someone sit next to him to constantly switch out the bowgun for a bronze axe.

What's the point of that? You should know by now that the key to beating this chapter (bar having the BK solo it, but that's obviously inefficient) is to minimize the amount of attacks your units face, and to only deploy durable frontliners. Once everyone's cornered in the water, or whatever defensive stance you take, nobody should be facing more than 2 attacks per turn unless their name is Volug or Bob Kibbles.

What do you mean by that? With a bowgun/beastfoe combo, Nolan is OHKOing everything on the map that isn't on a thicket (and almost everything that is. I think there are a small number of tigers that have hp + def = 72, so on a thicket they survive the bowgun). In other words, he can face as many attacks as there are laguz that can reach him unless you remove that bowgun.

He can face at least 2 attacks, and depending on precisely where you stick him it is even possible for 3 laguz to either be adjacent to him or 1 space away from being adjacent to him, so he'd face 2 attacks that particular enemy phase if you KO the thing in front of him on player phase. Also, a large number of the laguz enjoy staying untransformed until they can attack, meaning even more laguz can be in range to attack him on enemy phase since they can move 2 squares and then transform and attack. If Nolan has a bowgun equipped, he does not have Tarvos equipped (duh). So he is 2RKOd, and can face up to like 5 attacks (more depending on whether we stuck him on the left or right) on enemy phase thanks to the human-form laguz still having 2 move. It's tantamount to suicide. Bronze Axe allows him to still do rather good damage on enemy phase to one laguz (only 3 less mt than Tarvos w/out beastfoe and leaves no chance of crit-ing the enemy) and face no chance of death.

Also, Tarvos has 54 mt with beastfoe, so if he has just 18 str then he's still going to be OHKOing everything. Even with 16 str he's going to be OHKOing any tiger with 50hp/20def or 52hp/18def. It's just the 51hp or 52 hp tigers with 20 def that he won't be OHKOing. Oh, a 20/1 Nolan has 17.95 str, so good times. Without Tarvos, he is risking a KO every time he faces a laguz with crit. While he could use a steel axe or something and cause massive damage without KOing the enemy (provided he doesn't pull a crit), you might as well just use the Bronze Axe and take care of the thing on player phase with Leo or someone.

Okay, there is one thing you can do. There are two spaces in the west to stand units, one space in the middle east to stand a unit, and then there is the far east of the first island. The first three I mentioned will see a laguz flood and thus it is not possible to restrict what Nolan faces if he is OHKOing everything. It is possible to stand a unit in the far east in such a location as to prevent facing more than 1 laguz each enemy phase. Of course, they tended to ignore Jill (had beastfoe or paragon, not sure which) when I did that. I'm serious. Multiple turns I stuck her at the edge of the laguz' range. There was precisely one that could attack her and nothing else could. It just continued moving towards the island rather than attack her. So it may or may not allow him to blick one on enemy phase and one on player phase. But then other units need to do the main blocking on the 3 access points that most of the enemy laguz go towards. Anyway, it could help a bit, but I think it's better to have Nolan weaken something on enemy phase, bowgun something adjacent to what he weakened, and have Leo/Micaiah/Laura KO the weakened thing in front of Nolan. Unfortunately, none of the other units have respectable 2 range, and the healers may not necessarily be available for attacking.

Main point, though, is that there is really only one spot you can send Nolan to prevent him taking too many attacks, and Leo can use the beastfoe equally well over there with a bowgun anyway, if you really want. I just think he's more useful as one of the main blockers, rather than a dude on the outside.

Edited December 20, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Vykan12]

If you really want to talk in-depth strategy, the BK has a hidden provoke on him. If you don't believe me, enemies attacked the BK when they could've attacked Sothe (forged knife) or third tier Laura (40ish hp/15 def). Moreover, Volug attracts enemies towards him in a similarly powerful way because of his meter, and as far as I can understand, the laguz treat Nolan like he has shade because they'd rather attack someone else than be 1HKOed. When you add up all these factors, 3-6 really isn't a difficult chapter despite what the enemy stats would lead you to believe.

I also want to talk about facing crit chances. Presumably what Nolan is facing is reasonably small (1-3%, can't be arsed to look), so if Nolan dies and we have to end the chapter, the number of turns lost is the actual # of turns x the probability of him dying, which should be really small.

Eg/ you're 10 turns in, and Nolan faces 40 real/3 crit. Nolan's only losing you the full 10 turns 1.2% of the time, and on average he'd only be costing you 0.12 turns. You're already making that up by using Nolan more aggressively.

[nflchamp]

If you really want to talk in-depth strategy, the BK has a hidden provoke on him. If you don't believe me, enemies attacked the BK when they could've attacked Sothe (forged knife) or third tier Laura (40ish hp/15 def). Moreover, Volug attracts enemies towards him in a similarly powerful way because of his meter, and as far as I can understand, the laguz treat Nolan like he has shade because they'd rather attack someone else than be 1HKOed. When you add up all these factors, 3-6 really isn't a difficult chapter despite what the enemy stats would lead you to believe.

I also want to talk about facing crit chances. Presumably what Nolan is facing is reasonably small (1-3%, can't be arsed to look), so if Nolan dies and we have to end the chapter, the number of turns lost is the actual # of turns x the probability of him dying, which should be really small.

Eg/ you're 10 turns in, and Nolan faces 40 real/3 crit. Nolan's only losing you the full 10 turns 1.2% of the time, and on average he'd only be costing you 0.12 turns. You're already making that up by using Nolan more aggressively.

I believe Narga was talking about Nolan critting and facing additional attacks, not the laguz critting Nolan.

[Narga_Rocks]

If you really want to talk in-depth strategy, the BK has a hidden provoke on him. If you don't believe me, enemies attacked the BK when they could've attacked Sothe (forged knife) or third tier Laura (40ish hp/15 def). Moreover, Volug attracts enemies towards him in a similarly powerful way because of his meter, and as far as I can understand, the laguz treat Nolan like he has shade because they'd rather attack someone else than be 1HKOed. When you add up all these factors, 3-6 really isn't a difficult chapter despite what the enemy stats would lead you to believe.

I also want to talk about facing crit chances. Presumably what Nolan is facing is reasonably small (1-3%, can't be arsed to look), so if Nolan dies and we have to end the chapter, the number of turns lost is the actual # of turns x the probability of him dying, which should be really small.

Eg/ you're 10 turns in, and Nolan faces 40 real/3 crit. Nolan's only losing you the full 10 turns 1.2% of the time, and on average he'd only be costing you 0.12 turns. You're already making that up by using Nolan more aggressively.

I believe Narga was talking about Nolan critting and facing additional attacks, not the laguz critting Nolan.

nflchamp is right.

Nolan should have 0% against him. Almost everyone on the team should. Aran at worst is facing 1%, but even Aran has a good chance at facing 0% here. Definitely more worried about Nolan criting something. I'm worried about everyone critting something, actually, but if I have the option of removing one of those variables (Nolan critting something) without a big cost, I'm taking it. Also, Nolan's effective shade (borderline stillness, actually, considering how little enemies like facing units that have effective damage on them) only lasts so long as the laguz have something else to target. Since there are lots of things that Volug doesn't ORKO, if you have Nolan and Volug/anybody else standing side-by-side on the left (where you can actually stick two units adjacent next to water) then after an enemy attacks Volug, they are all coming at Nolan anyway. Ditto on the right if you use two units on the far right of the island. Well, it's probably easier to ensure life here, though, considering you can generally get in range of just 3 enemies. 1 for Nolan to KO on player phase when you move in, one for Nolan's buddy (not necessarily supporter) to draw, one for Nolan to KO. It should be simple enough to keep Nolan alive there, but I still think that a guy like Nolan is better utilized either in one of the two holes on the left or the on in the middle-right of the island. (I think, (4,7), (5,7), (10,5) are the ones I am calling left side and middle-right, and (11,4), (11,5) basically what I am calling the far right. Based on the co-ordinates used in the hidden items page for 3-6).

Anyway, there are merits to having Nolan stand around at (11,4) or (11,5) or even move out a bit to (12,5) or something to draw Laguz, but I wonder if he isn't better used holding Tarvos and a def support and being 3HKOd instead of 2HKOd by tigers. And letting others have beastfoe and using Nolan in one of the main 3 blocking points.

Oh, as for his % for critting? He has 10 crit. Laguz suck and have 6 to 8 dodge. Mostly 6 or 7. 3% or 4% crit on everything. If he has, say, an iron axe with beastfoe, he's probably 3HKOing or better on everything. He does this even once, there is a large chance of him dying. He just has to get hit twice. The chance of him critting at least once on 9 enemy phases is ~28% assuming 5 attacks with 4% crit and 4 attacks with 3% crit. ~30% if they are all at 4%, ~24% if they are all at 3%. Each time he does this, there is a hit% x hit% chance of him dying, basically, if tigers are involved. Now, you could argue chance of turns saved vs. chance of extra turns canceling out, or even being in favour of leaving him with an iron/steel axe instead of a bronze axe, but I'm not convinced that an iron/steel axe saves more turns than a bronze axe anyway. And it should be pretty clear that he'll end up dead >50% map attempts if he uses a bowgun on enemy phase anywhere but the far right.

[Vykan12]

Come to think of it, on HM beastfoe should definitely go to Volug. He doubles everything, and with S strike has more than enough atk to ORKO everything he faces, which is just as effective as a 1HKO in terms of killing the enemy. In his case though, his primary concern is meter, not health.

Also, I think you're overestimating the risks of Nolan dying. Laguz can only move 2 spaces in water, and the most I've seen water impaired laguz attack in a turn is 3. Moreover, laguz are reverting all over the place, and are often dumb enough to park themselves right in front of you. Plus if you have the BK on the left and Volug on the right, and perhaps someone behind, then Nolan only has 1 exposed space. In practice, I've never seen crossbow!Nolan die in this chapter.

[Vykan12]

Now to get to some older stuff.

As for Marcia, just saying "chipping" is an understatement. She's one of two fighters for half of 2-P, the other of whom is no better. She's the only flier in 2-3 and has access to the Killer Lance, Brave Lance, and Horseslayer to make her very useful there. Her 2-E is a bit more limited but she's still useful for tossing Javelins and doing hit-and-run stuff since you pretty much need everyone you can get there. Then in 3-9 her flight comes in handy again and she's the only one with a realistic chance of doubling anything. Those first four maps alone probably make her comparable to or even better than Soren.

In 2-P Marcia’s utility might as well be nonexistent. We could stuff her in a corner and still easily keep Leanne alive for 8 turns. In fact, the only credit I’d give her is increasing Elincia’s exp gain by taking damage (Nealuchi has 1337 avoid).

For 2-3, only Geoffrey and Kieran have any real effect on the turn count. Marcia can’t even chip in the area of the level where the enemies stop failing because there’s 2 crossbow users and a mounted archer there. She probably won’t get the brave lance since Geoffrey wants it to double promoted enemies, and to do massive damage to the boss (in fact he’s 2 str away from a clean 1RKO). The killer lance has less mt than the steel greatlance, so she’ll have issues ORKOing the unpromoted peeps that even Makalov laughs at. Trading reliable killing for unreliable is not a gain at all. Moreover, the weapon is both expensive and valuable, so there’s a decent opportunity cost involved (we could save it for the GMs, for example).

For 2-E, she’s contributing nothing in regards to killing Ludveck unless she’s rescuing Heather after she steals a dracoshield or something. Chipping over a wall only improves herself, and the only place I could see it having use otherwise is against the general with the nullify scroll, but she’s going to be doing lol damage to him anyway.

In 3-9 I’ll give you that she’s amazing. She can take out the guy on the top who burns down a bunch of houses you can’t otherwise reach, and her mobility really gives her a lot of freedom to work around her durability and offence issues.

Now once you get her back in 3-11 she’s a combat failure. She has trouble reaching 20 strength in first tier, especially since she’s not going to be anywhere near promotion. I am currently training her in NM, which included giving her paragon in 3-9, and she’s only lv 14 now. I can only imagine what level she’d be in HM with less favoritism.

“Chipping” seems like a pretty accurate description to me.

[Narga_Rocks]

Now to get to some older stuff.

As for Marcia, just saying "chipping" is an understatement. She's one of two fighters for half of 2-P, the other of whom is no better. She's the only flier in 2-3 and has access to the Killer Lance, Brave Lance, and Horseslayer to make her very useful there. Her 2-E is a bit more limited but she's still useful for tossing Javelins and doing hit-and-run stuff since you pretty much need everyone you can get there. Then in 3-9 her flight comes in handy again and she's the only one with a realistic chance of doubling anything. Those first four maps alone probably make her comparable to or even better than Soren.

In 2-P Marcia’s utility might as well be nonexistent. We could stuff her in a corner and still easily keep Leanne alive for 8 turns. In fact, the only credit I’d give her is increasing Elincia’s exp gain by taking damage (Nealuchi has 1337 avoid).

Giving Elincia mend use is already a good benefit, but if you want to define things this way then nobody gets anything out of this chapter at all (aside from Marcia improves Elincia's exp gain and Leanne helps the exp gains of Marcia/Elincia).

For 2-3, only Geoffrey and Kieran have any real effect on the turn count.

Marcia makes it easier to get the speedwing and KO the horseslayer paladin.

Marcia can’t even chip in the area of the level where the enemies stop failing because there’s 2 crossbow users and a mounted archer there.

That's a smash-level argument. To use words like Interceptor, the crossbow users and mounted archer are about as troublesome as a rainy day. Less so, really. The bow paladin is stuck by thickets and is basically not going to get to the middle area until Marcia, Kieran, and Geoffrey should be well past it. The crossbow guys attack Geoffrey who should be standing on the arms scroll square by turn 3. Geoffrey who will have a short spear equipped. Geoffrey and Kieran should easily OHKO them on the following turn (turn 4) at the same time Marcia helps them out by OHKOing the horseslayer paladin. Oh look, turn 4, Marcia is in the north, and those oh so scary enemies that block all utility Marcia gets from this chapter are dead or irrelevant. Also, turn 1 you just move MKG into a vertical line in the right spot, nobody attacks. Turn 2, any of the 3 of them can KO a fighter/warrior (don't remember if promoted) that gets in the way. I think fighter. She can't get much credit for this one, of course, because any of them can do it, but it's something. It should be noted that any time you have the option to KO something with any of the three you should probably use Marcia, at least considering the whole "I'm the only one with any semblance of speed when we join the GMs" thing. So for turn 5 and on Marcia is helping them get the speedwing or KO the boss.

Also, the fact Geoffrey misses the KO on the boss with the brave lance means that either Marcia or Kieran should KO the boss. Partial credit please.

She probably won’t get the brave lance since Geoffrey wants it to double promoted enemies, and to do massive damage to the boss (in fact he’s 2 str away from a clean 1RKO). The killer lance has less mt than the steel greatlance, so she’ll have issues ORKOing the unpromoted peeps that even Makalov laughs at. Trading reliable killing for unreliable is not a gain at all. Moreover, the weapon is both expensive and valuable, so there’s a decent opportunity cost involved (we could save it for the GMs, for example).

Meh, killer lance at least gives a chance of grabbing the speedwing a bit quicker. Kieran can't use it, and by the time Danved gets up there the halb should be dead. Geoffrey is busy.

For 2-E, she’s contributing nothing in regards to killing Ludveck unless she’s rescuing Heather after she steals a dracoshield or something. Chipping over a wall only improves herself, and the only place I could see it having use otherwise is against the general with the nullify scroll, but she’s going to be doing lol damage to him anyway.

Just how are we playing this chapter, anyway? If it's to gain experience, Elincia clears out crossbow users, Marcia KOs thunder sages, Haar takes out armors and other things as they are gaining experience. Elincia protects herself and Marcia this way, and Marcia protects Haar. Seems like an important job to me, anyway. (Nealuchi should be busy grabbing the silver greatlance because it's his biggest wexp pool and otherwise you have to wait until the CRK show up and use a flier to ship it over anyway.)

In 3-9 I’ll give you that she’s amazing. She can take out the guy on the top who burns down a bunch of houses you can’t otherwise reach, and her mobility really gives her a lot of freedom to work around her durability and offence issues.

Yay, something.

Now once you get her back in 3-11 she’s a combat failure. She has trouble reaching 20 strength in first tier, especially since she’s not going to be anywhere near promotion. I am currently training her in NM, which included giving her paragon in 3-9, and she’s only lv 14 now. I can only imagine what level she’d be in HM with less favoritism.

A combat failure that doubles and 2RKOs things, just like a lot of your other units are still doing because of the whole not doubling thing. Forgive me if I sound less than convinced. Also, flight is useful and she should ORKO sages with a forge. That doesn't sound impressive until you consider how many of them are not accessible by your grounded units unless they equip two range weapons. And Janaff/Haar/Ulki have more important enemies to take out and Marcia permits them to not deal with sages. Tanith/Sigrun should be busy either ferrying or blocking holes, and on top of that Marcia has better endgame potential than they do so the sage kills should be hers.

“Chipping” seems like a pretty accurate description to me.

Yes, after sandbagging and bad tactics, her usefulness could be described as such, I suppose.

[Vykan12]

Giving Elincia mend use is already a good benefit, but if you want to define things this way then nobody gets anything out of this chapter at all (aside from Marcia improves Elincia's exp gain and Leanne helps the exp gains of Marcia/Elincia).

Giving Elincia half a level is going to make a minimal impact in 4-2. By that point she gets the same thing from just killing 2 enemies.

Marcia makes it easier to get the speedwing and KO the horseslayer paladin.

Unfortunately, she has no way of reaching the speedwing halb. He’s up on a platform guarded by multiple archers.

Geoffrey who will have a short spear equipped. Geoffrey and Kieran should easily OHKO them on the following turn (turn 4) at the same time Marcia helps them out by OHKOing the horseslayer paladin.

This happens on turn 4, but the map is 5-6 turned, so that leaves Marcia 2 turns to… make sure nobody blocks Geoffrey from the throne?

Just how are we playing this chapter, anyway?

Clearing it as fast as possible, how else? There’s only reason to delay it if the long-term benefit outweighs the short-term. You can get all the relevant treasure – the silver greatlance in 3-4 turns. In fact I’ve even seen a video of it being done in 2. If we’re supposed to be using perfect strategy, this type of performance is to be expected.

A combat failure that doubles and 2RKOs things, just like a lot of your other units are still doing because of the whole not doubling thing.

A lv 12 Marcia has 38 hp/18 str/24 spd/18 def/78 avo. With a +5 forge (which btw is already a detriment because money doesn’t grow on trees), she’s got 33 atk. Taking a quick look:

2x Halberdier lvl 15 (Steel Lance)

HP 41, Atk 31, AS 22, Hit 151, Avo 71, Def 22, Res 14, Crit 16, Ddg 17

Marcia cannot double (in fact she’s 2 spd short), so she’s 4RKOing. Moreover, she only has 79 hit unless we add hit to our forge, making it even more expensive. Defensively, she gets 3RKOed at 86 real. The enemy’s doing better on her than she on him!

2x Swordmaster lvl 14 (Steel Sword, Vulnerary)

HP 36, Atk 28, AS 25, Hit 162, Avo 77, Def 18, Res 11, Crit 22, Ddg 17

Now this is a rarity: 3HKOing a sword user. This time the hit rate’s only 73, so even a 25 hit bonus wouldn’t give her triple digits there. The SM 4HKOes back, but also has a crit rate of about 7 on her, so she pretty much has to avoid them anyway.

I’m sure I don’t need to mention generals, wyverns or warriors and she has to avoid snipers at all costs. She’s pretty much limited to killing sages, and even Sigrun can do that.

I have to lol at a lot of units not doubling by 3-11 as well. If Haar’s reached 20/1 and got a wing, he has 26 AS, enough to double the aforementioned halb. Titania only needs to be 20/3. Oscar can at 20/1. Mia, Shinon, Ranulf, Janaff and Ulki obviously have no trouble doubling. Gatrie only needs 2 levels after a crown. Sigrun just needs a promotion, which is essentially 2 levels of BEXP. Since the list includes transfers, people like Ike, Rolf and Boyd might even get there. This isn’t even including any BEXP ramming that could be done to raise spd values.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Oliver

[Narga_Rocks]

Giving Elincia mend use is already a good benefit, but if you want to define things this way then nobody gets anything out of this chapter at all (aside from Marcia improves Elincia's exp gain and Leanne helps the exp gains of Marcia/Elincia).

Giving Elincia half a level is going to make a minimal impact in 4-2. By that point she gets the same thing from just killing 2 enemies.

I was pointing out that units should get more credit for that chapter than you are giving them.

Marcia makes it easier to get the speedwing and KO the horseslayer paladin.

Unfortunately, she has no way of reaching the speedwing halb. He’s up on a platform guarded by multiple archers.

Hi smash.

Anyway, I'm not here to teach you how to play. Your speedrun videos clearly show that you are quite good at it, despite your apparent blind spots.

Geoffrey who will have a short spear equipped. Geoffrey and Kieran should easily OHKO them on the following turn (turn 4) at the same time Marcia helps them out by OHKOing the horseslayer paladin.

This happens on turn 4, but the map is 5-6 turned, so that leaves Marcia 2 turns to… make sure nobody blocks Geoffrey from the throne?

Um, getting the speedwing? Killing the boss? I just went over this. (Though somehow I forgot that Kieran can easily have a killer axe if you want. That should just let it go even faster, though, if the guy drops down, because then you have two units with killer weapons whacking at him. Or three if Geoffrey joins in.)

Just how are we playing this chapter, anyway?

Clearing it as fast as possible, how else? There’s only reason to delay it if the long-term benefit outweighs the short-term. You can get all the relevant treasure – the silver greatlance in 3-4 turns. In fact I’ve even seen a video of it being done in 2. If we’re supposed to be using perfect strategy, this type of performance is to be expected.

Okay then. Assisting in clearing out the enemies in the way of the boss so that you can KO the boss without relying on luck.

A combat failure that doubles and 2RKOs things, just like a lot of your other units are still doing because of the whole not doubling thing.

A lv 12 Marcia has 38 hp/18 str/24 spd/18 def/78 avo. With a +5 forge (which btw is already a detriment because money doesn’t grow on trees), she’s got 33 atk. Taking a quick look:

2x Halberdier lvl 15 (Steel Lance)

HP 41, Atk 31, AS 22, Hit 151, Avo 71, Def 22, Res 14, Crit 16, Ddg 17

Marcia cannot double (in fact she’s 2 spd short), so she’s 4RKOing. Moreover, she only has 79 hit unless we add hit to our forge, making it even more expensive. Defensively, she gets 3RKOed at 86 real. The enemy’s doing better on her than she on him!

2x Swordmaster lvl 14 (Steel Sword, Vulnerary)

HP 36, Atk 28, AS 25, Hit 162, Avo 77, Def 18, Res 11, Crit 22, Ddg 17

Now this is a rarity: 3HKOing a sword user. This time the hit rate’s only 73, so even a 25 hit bonus wouldn’t give her triple digits there. The SM 4HKOes back, but also has a crit rate of about 7 on her, so she pretty much has to avoid them anyway.

I’m sure I don’t need to mention generals, wyverns or warriors and she has to avoid snipers at all costs. She’s pretty much limited to killing sages, and even Sigrun can do that.

I already pointed out what Sigrun and Tanith are better off doing and why. You also selected from the <25% of the map she doesn't double. Good job.

Solid 2RKO on all of the paladins. Solid ORKO on all the mages, so that Haar/Janaff/Ulki can go after generals and halbs and warriors on player phase and not worry about getting bitten on enemy phase by sages. Tanith and Sigrun can continue to play pit-blocking, so that your other units can get by. Or just carrying Ike past places where it would take longer without them. She comes close to 2RKOing dragonmasters, but she barely 5HKOs instead of 4HKO. Except for one small detail: wyrmslayers. Even without them, she is still causing enough damage that most units that 2RKO with her will easily combine with her to 2RKO. But since there are wyrmslayers, hello ORKO that non-sword users can't do and non-fliers can't always do as easily.

Snipers aren't something to avoid at all costs, by the way. Snipers are something to stick a wall in the way so they can't reach her, then have her fly in and attack from an adjacent square. At level 13 she doubles them, so by the midway point of the chapter she should be fine there. Solid 4HKO.

I have to lol at a lot of units not doubling by 3-11 as well. If Haar’s reached 20/1 and got a wing, he has 26 AS, enough to double the aforementioned halb. Titania only needs to be 20/3. Oscar can at 20/1. Mia, Shinon, Ranulf, Janaff and Ulki obviously have no trouble doubling. Gatrie only needs 2 levels after a crown. Sigrun just needs a promotion, which is essentially 2 levels of BEXP. Since the list includes transfers, people like Ike, Rolf and Boyd might even get there. This isn’t even including any BEXP ramming that could be done to raise spd values.

Yes, yes, Haar should double, Titania should have a wing and double.

Oscar may not promote. Shinon doesn't do anything on enemy phase. Gatrie should have a crown but may not have 2 levels yet.

Sigrun and Tanith are blocking, remember? Do you really think it is more efficient to have them scooping up kills and attacks and leaving units like Oscar/Mia/Shinon/Ike behind because nobody is letting them run over pits?

There are units that can double, yes. But not all of them. I still question Oscar, though he can easily have 24 AS for the paladins. He's not ORKOing, though, without promotion. The point, however, is that she's not bad here (no negative to make up for if we choose to keep using her), and she is still going to be better soon.

Don't forget, in 3-E she is one of the few that can run to the northwest without getting slept, so she can speed up the killing of the paladins up there with a horseslayer (Haar goes to the east ones to get them faster than the hawks would, and he doesn't need a horseslayer for that task anyway. No other paladins on the map that matter). Alternatively, she can assist the other sword users in trading around wyrmslayers (if necessary) to KO the dragonmasters that you can draw south.

In 4-P, she'll be doubling everything, and while she won't likely ORKO without a horseslayer, this is one of the last chapters for it anyway and your other fliers like Janaff and Haar aren't needing it (Janaff can't use it, obviously, but I'm pointing him out as a flier that has a chance to be here).

4-3, wyrmslayer. Tanith, Sigrun, and Marcia are practically the only ones with this form of utility, and since you aren't likely raising them all for the tower...

4-E-2 and beyond she can have wishblade. Let's see, she doubles, has 9 move, has canto, has fire, and isn't that far off from Nephenee's str. If Marcia is in the tower, I think that's a pretty good amount of utility she's getting there.

If she is being compared to Soren, I'm really not seeing what Soren can do in comparison without giving him wings and multiple levels of bexp at once rather than over time and crowns better used on other units.

And no, transfers do not exist when considering Marcia (N), considering the original list is created with that in mind. No other (N) unit has to deal with the existence of (T)s, so why should Marcia? Oh right, sandbagging. I get it.

In fact, even were we to be discussing Marcia (T), it still wouldn't matter because she would then be the only T (that's what was decided). At least have the courtesy to argue within the context of the list as it was designed, please and thank you.

As for Ike, though, why doesn't he have 28 AS? I suppose you weren't including bexp yet, but level 20 Ike actually has 26 AS anyway, and thus doubles those few halbs and warriors on the map.

And what do you mean by "detriment" for the +5 mt lance? Why doesn't everyone have a good forge. Money may not grow on trees, but you have a large amount. I think I should have just not even bothered after seeing that statement (obvious giga-sandbagging alert) but oh well.

So, 33 mt against 27 def generals. All 8 of them (one of 8 has 26 def, actually). 12 damage with doubling, 4RKO. Okay, so it's not good. But at the same time, she's not completely worthless here (adding to my statement that using her in this chapter is not a negative and thus can't be used as an excuse to not level her and use her later.)

They have 41 to 43 hp, and 26 or 27 def. Ike has 45 mt and causes at least 36 damage. Oh look, Marcia KOs. Gatrie attacks, Marcia KOs. Titania (promoted) attacks, Marcia KOs. Shinon attacks (assuming promoted or bexp to arrive at 26 str) and Marcia KOs. Well, in the case of Shinon if he has 42 mt he causes 30 damage, so there are a fair number (5) that wouldn't die unless one of them has a support. Either Marcia with anyone, or Shinon with fire/water/dark. Mia adepts with 23 str and a steel blade and has 38 mt with a support. Adept causes 33 damage, and Marcia KOs. Oscar w/ Boyd support, promoted (because you were using it against Marcia). 25 str (without bexp), 42 mt with Boyd support. Does damage similar to Shinon. Marcia w/ Calill support allows for a KO, or if Oscar touched bexp while leveling after capping stuff then he has 43 mt and Marcia KOs. Mordecai with Resolve and level 19 has 30 str, 15 mt weapon with S strike. 45 mt doesn't KO. Marcia does. 47 mt (support) doesn't KO. Marcia finishes it then too. A strike means 42 mt with support. Well, possibly just 41 mt. This causes problems, and I'm not sure quite whether or not Mordy will have S strike in 3-10, or if he can get the levels to pull 16 str yet. Soren needs to be promoted to KO, because even a forge results in just 37 mt. Against ~17 res, he doesn't KO. Marcia finishes it. Well, Soren KOs two of them with just 37 mt. Also a support allows him to use that forge to ORKO. So Soren doesn't need Marcia's help. Level 19 Boyd has 29 str. A 16 mt forge results in 45 mt. 47 mt with support. Still doesn't KO anything but the one guy with 26 def. Marcia KOs.

Now, most or all of those KOs can also be accomplished with Tanith or Sigrun, and if those ground units are nearby then it's entirely possible the two pegs aren't busy. But again, a lot of this is just to point out that she's not a negative here. The utility she gives by KOing mages and allowing the other pegs to block pits and allow the other fliers to KO other things (speeding up the chapter) is still there, and when Marcia can't do those things she's neutral at worse. Meaning there is no reason not to train her for 3-E and part 4. We aren't talking getting Edward from 1-P to 4-1/2 for him to be good type of stuff here. Also, I'd note that Soren isn't particularly good in early part 3 either. If you want to deny Marcia her post 3-11 existence, I'd say that Soren just has 3-P, 3-1, 3-2, 3-5 to compare with Marcia, because he is most definitely not deserving of a slot for his other chapters.

Do you think he's better in his 4 chapters than Marcia is in hers? Remember 3-P kinda sucks for him because you have to move fast and he has 6 move and there is terrain. 3-2 is similar to 2-E, only it's easier to quick clear this one than 2-E and there are fewer units that get utility out of it. It's basically 3-1 vs. 2-3 and 3-5 vs. 3-9. Seems like Marcia wins either way, honestly.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Vykan12]

Anyway, I'm not here to teach you how to play. Your speedrun videos clearly show that you are quite good at it, despite your apparent blind spots.

Let’s assume for the sake of argument she can in fact hit the guy while he’s in the rafters, presumably through a hit + run. Let’s look at her offence vs mr halberdier.

1x Halberdier lvl 5 (Short Spear, droppable Speedwing)

HP 35, Atk 28, AS 19, Hit 104, Avo 49, DEF 17, RES 12, Crit 14, Ddg 11

With a steel greatlance, she does 13 damage, or 37% damage. Meanwhile, Kieran does 54% and Mak does 51%. Thus, her attack is superfluous. Oh, and those damage figures are a testament to her offence as well… she is only losing to Danved and Astrid on offence, and Astrid in terms of durability.

Okay then. Assisting in clearing out the enemies in the way of the boss so that you can KO the boss without relying on luck.

What luck? Haar with the speedwing and a hammer is more or less guaranteed to ORKO the boss (he has to miss to fail), and he won’t get attacked by a thunder mage because the boss attacks first. 2 range isn’t an issue either because an enemy is blocking the spot where he’d usually attack at range. If that’s somehow too risky, you could just drop Brom in the described spot and 2 turn it.

That is mainly for 1 turning though, but you can always end the chapter on any given turn with no luck involved through clever use of Haar, Elincia and Leanne.

Solid 2RKO on all of the paladins. Solid ORKO on all the mages, so that Haar/Janaff/Ulki can go after generals and halbs and warriors on player phase and not worry about getting bitten on enemy phase by sages.

This isn’t at all remarkable. In fact, it’s hard to come by a unit who doesn’t ORKO paladins. 40 atk/24 AS to ORKO, and a lv --/13/0 Rolf can manage that with silencer (42 atk). And, the only people who don’t ORKO mages are mage characters themselves.

She comes close to 2RKOing dragonmasters, but she barely 5HKOs instead of 4HKO. Except for one small detail: wyrmslayers.

Explain how Marcia’s sword rank increases from C to B. In a game with no weapon triangle, why the hell would a character with atk issues settle for a weaker weapon when they don’t have to?

Looking at the numbers, C to B is 50 weapon uses. Iron blades give 3 wexp but also make her lose 4 mt compared to a steel greatlance (keep that in mind). That’s 16 attacks with that shitty weapon. If that weren’t enough, she can’t use swords in 2-P (unless Elincia trades her a slim sword, but rofl at that) and it’s pretty moronic in 2-E if she’s going to toss javs down the stairs. So she has to fit that all in 2-3 and 3-9, which is pretty ridiculous.

Even without them, she is still causing enough damage that most units that 2RKO with her will easily combine with her to 2RKO.

That says more about “most units” than it does about her. The fact that she can combine for kills doesn’t change the fact that she’s giving a minor contribution in those kills (38% damage instead of 62), and that units in lower tiers like Kyza can match that kind of potshot contribution.

Snipers aren't something to avoid at all costs, by the way. Snipers are something to stick a wall in the way so they can't reach her, then have her fly in and attack from an adjacent square. At level 13 she doubles them, so by the midway point of the chapter she should be fine there. Solid 4HKO.

By doing that you’re creating the additional worry of Marcia’s safety. Even if a wall structure is available to help people like Mist and Rhys, its flexibility is being stretched thin by having to protect yet another unit.

By the way, you advocate enemy phase domination, why not just stick a wall of Gatrie/Titania/Haar/Ike (ragnell now) and kill the archer with a 1-2 range counter? Marcia killing the enemy is now to her own benefit only.

Sigrun and Tanith are blocking, remember? Do you really think it is more efficient to have them scooping up kills and attacks and leaving units like Oscar/Mia/Shinon/Ike behind because nobody is letting them run over pits?

They can’t kill and canto onto a trap?

Don't forget, in 3-E she is one of the few that can run to the northwest without getting slept

The 3-E bishop has 22 mag, and if your res matches his mag, you have a really low probability of falling asleep. Most people can manage that easily with spirit water. If that weren’t enough, you have staff users who use restore. Seriously, who’s afraid of going up there?

so she can speed up the killing of the paladins up there with a horseslayer

You know the horseslayer is OPed, right? You could put that into anyone’s hands and they’d 1HKO a paladin.

In 4-P, she'll be doubling everything, and while she won't likely ORKO without a horseslayer, this is one of the last chapters for it anyway and your other fliers like Janaff and Haar aren't needing it (Janaff can't use it, obviously, but I'm pointing him out as a flier that has a chance to be here).

4-3, wyrmslayer. Tanith, Sigrun, and Marcia are practically the only ones with this form of utility, and since you aren't likely raising them all for the tower...

4-E-2 and beyond she can have wishblade. Let's see, she doubles, has 9 move, has canto, has fire, and isn't that far off from Nephenee's str. If Marcia is in the tower, I think that's a pretty good amount of utility she's getting there.

What happened to all your Doritos-economic-profit concepts? Did they just fly out the window? If Marcia isn’t the best user of the wishblade, she’s not getting it (outside of trading it around 24/7), and even if she does get to use it, it’s only as good as the next best person, which is basically a tie (presumably Neph).

If she is being compared to Soren, I'm really not seeing what Soren can do in comparison without giving him wings and multiple levels of bexp at once rather than over time and crowns better used on other units.

You guys hype availability to the point where it’s the sole reason Mia is above the Hawks (or just about), how about applying it here? Soren has 9 chapters to Marcia’s 4 (even though 2-P should be like 0.1), so according to this thread’s own logic, Marcia has to be more than twice as good as Soren to beat him in parts 2+3. That’s just not happening.

And no, transfers do not exist when considering Marcia (N), considering the original list is created with that in mind. No other (N) unit has to deal with the existence of (T)s, so why should Marcia? Oh right, sandbagging. I get it.

Marcia (T) and Marcia (N) are two different characters. My argument was aimed towards Marcia (N). Oh right, strange accusations that make no sense. I get it.

And what do you mean by "detriment" for the +5 mt lance? Why doesn't everyone have a good forge. Money may not grow on trees, but you have a large amount. I think I should have just not even bothered after seeing that statement (obvious giga-sandbagging alert) but oh well.

Why doesn’t everyone have a good forge? Because it’s fucking expensive.

Take a steel axe (one of the least expensive weapon types btw). Try and be smart with it by giving it +3 mt, +15 hit and +15 crit. The cost goes from 640g to 1728. Make 3 weapons like that and your blue gem that was sent over from the DB is already gone. Oh, but let’s suppose someone wants better 1-2 range. A forged hand axe with 5 mt/20 hit costs 2562g. Just two of those = the blue gem. Now let’s give Mia her crit forge. +25 crit alone costs 2000g, and we probably want to add mt onto that too. These are just expenses before satisfying basic necessities, such as getting olivi grass for laguz, buying some regular weapons (believe it or not forges don’t last forever) and healing items.

Here is some personal experience for you. I am hoarding money like crazy on my current playthrough, conserving good weapons and only using the cheapest ones in combat. Before 3-11’s money dump, I only have around 24k after selling everything I sold, though let’s say it’s actually 30k. Let’s see what that money can produce in terms of forges:

Steel lance: 3 mt/10 hit/15 crit = 3072g. Makes 10 forges.

Javelin: same stats = 2880g. Makes 10.7 forges.

Hand axe: same stats = 2999g. Makes 10 forges

Steel bow: 5 mt = 3675 g. Makes 8 forges.

Thunder: 3 mt/20 crit = 3872g. Makes 7.7 forges

Steel sword: 2 mt/25 crit = 3120g. Makes 10 forges.

You can manipulate the costs a little for some reasonable savings, but nonetheless you can only really afford a single forge per unit. The problem is, a 40 use weapon isn’t going to last someone 8 chapters, and hand weapons don’t last long at all. The constraints on forge spending alone is quite significant.

But again, a lot of this is just to point out that she's not a negative here.

Did I ever say she was? If you’re applying a gross system, it would be ludicrous for me to make the claim in the first place.

Now here’s my problem:

The utility she gives by KOing mages and allowing the other pegs to block pits and allow the other fliers to KO other things (speeding up the chapter) is still there, and when Marcia can't do those things she's neutral at worse.

This entire post all you’ve focused on is Marcia’s combat alone, but come 3-11 you have to compare it to Soren’s otherwise you’re venting hot air. I honestly would do it right now, but I’m fed up of arguing.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Oliver

[Shadow Mir]

What luck? Haar with the speedwing and a hammer is more or less guaranteed to ORKO the boss (he has to miss to fail)

The luck where Haar hits both times and Ludveck doesn't critical him. Becauise if Ludveck criticals... Bye-bye Haar.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Richter Renard

[Narga_Rocks]

Anyway, I'm not here to teach you how to play. Your speedrun videos clearly show that you are quite good at it, despite your apparent blind spots.

Let’s assume for the sake of argument she can in fact hit the guy while he’s in the rafters, presumably through a hit + run. Let’s look at her offence vs mr halberdier.

1x Halberdier lvl 5 (Short Spear, droppable Speedwing)

HP 35, Atk 28, AS 19, Hit 104, Avo 49, DEF 17, RES 12, Crit 14, Ddg 11

With a steel greatlance, she does 13 damage, or 37% damage. Meanwhile, Kieran does 54% and Mak does 51%. Thus, her attack is superfluous. Oh, and those damage figures are a testament to her offence as well… she is only losing to Danved and Astrid on offence, and Astrid in terms of durability.

She's not there to ORKO him, she's there to attack him, he jumps down after, Kieran attacks him, and Marcia KOs him. It works. Also, if she uses a killer lance (9mt) she does 8 damage at base. If she crits, she does 24. If she doesn't, Kieran attacks for 19, Marcia KOs. Alternatively, Kieran attacks with a killer axe (10 mt, 14 damage), the halb has 13 hp because Kieran didn't crit, and Marcia KOs with a steel greatlance. Or, Kieran crits and it dies. Or Marcia crits the first time and Kieran KOs with, well, just about anything considering the thing has 11 hp left and Kieran needs just 28 mt (iron axe).

Note that Kieran can attack with a killer axe on his own (3HKO) in the hopes of pulling a crit, but without critting he can't KO the following round (14 + 19 = 33) and so it takes 3 rounds. Using Marcia provides two chances to crit in order to reduce the number of rounds needed to KO, and only she can attack before it jumps down (probably not at his starting position, but the first time he moves he can't quite jump down so she can attack his second position.)

I don't think you can make him attack Kieran at 1 range on enemy phase, considering the layout.

What luck? Haar with the speedwing and a hammer is more or less guaranteed to ORKO the boss (he has to miss to fail), and he won’t get attacked by a thunder mage because the boss attacks first. 2 range isn’t an issue either because an enemy is blocking the spot where he’d usually attack at range. If that’s somehow too risky, you could just drop Brom in the described spot and 2 turn it.

In your own video the thunder mage attacks Haar and misses before the boss attacks.

And Haar can miss (there's a chance, though it's not huge). And the boss can crit (as pointed out by Richter Renard).

That is mainly for 1 turning though, but you can always end the chapter on any given turn with no luck involved through clever use of Haar, Elincia and Leanne.

Letting Elincia attack twice on the same turn is really the only way to pull that off (Haar can miss), and for that you have to clear the way so that she can get down there and get back to a spot for Leanne. I'm not convinced that Haar can pull that off on his own even with a speedwing, though it is possible I could be wrong. Well, Meteor, I suppose. If he gets hit once with Meteor, anyone know if the priest will heal him? That would be a problem, since Meteor is somewhat inaccurate here, so it's better to use it on an earlier turn. Anyway, with Meteor help Elincia can ORKO (I think), and she has 100% hit, so that might be a way to go about it without Marcia.

Solid 2RKO on all of the paladins. Solid ORKO on all the mages, so that Haar/Janaff/Ulki can go after generals and halbs and warriors on player phase and not worry about getting bitten on enemy phase by sages.

This isn’t at all remarkable. In fact, it’s hard to come by a unit who doesn’t ORKO paladins. 40 atk/24 AS to ORKO, and a lv --/13/0 Rolf can manage that with silencer (42 atk). And, the only people who don’t ORKO mages are mage characters themselves.

Oscar needs to be promoted with bexp help along the way to ORKO. I'm sure he's not the only one. As for the mages, I said why this helps. It's a layout thing. Some of them can't be reached unless they use 2 range weapons, which aren't as good on enemy phase against the non-mages. Also, it's a bit out of the way to KO them on the way east, but as you move forward they can get to you on enemy phase. So it's best to deal with them with fliers.

She comes close to 2RKOing dragonmasters, but she barely 5HKOs instead of 4HKO. Except for one small detail: wyrmslayers.

Explain how Marcia’s sword rank increases from C to B. In a game with no weapon triangle, why the hell would a character with atk issues settle for a weaker weapon when they don’t have to?

Looking at the numbers, C to B is 50 weapon uses. Iron blades give 3 wexp but also make her lose 4 mt compared to a steel greatlance (keep that in mind). That’s 16 attacks with that shitty weapon. If that weren’t enough, she can’t use swords in 2-P (unless Elincia trades her a slim sword, but rofl at that) and it’s pretty moronic in 2-E if she’s going to toss javs down the stairs. So she has to fit that all in 2-3 and 3-9, which is pretty ridiculous.

Yeah, it's possible it may not happen. It depends on what you do. You can take out sages in 2-E with the right swords, so that could help. 4 wexp each time. Well, 6 with steel swords. Also, 3-9 she can use them on some things. It depends on what your other units are doing. Since the one guy that matters that she ORKOs with a steel lance is the guy setting fires (or did she need something more for that?...) I'd have to think that when she's attacking the other enemies in conjuction with the rest of your units that she can pull off helping with swords. Also, 2-3 has lots of things to not kill. She meets some of them on turn 1, though they may not choose to attack her. Barring all that, arms scroll. Even without B swords, there aren't that many dragonmasters here anyway, so it's kinda irrelevant. I just mentioned them because I was trying to mention all the things she doubles.

By doing that you’re creating the additional worry of Marcia’s safety. Even if a wall structure is available to help people like Mist and Rhys, its flexibility is being stretched thin by having to protect yet another unit.

By the way, you advocate enemy phase domination, why not just stick a wall of Gatrie/Titania/Haar/Ike (ragnell now) and kill the archer with a 1-2 range counter? Marcia killing the enemy is now to her own benefit only.

Use a wall, not make a wall. There are very many natural walls here that get in the way of snipers. Also, those 1-2 range counters aren't so great against some of the other things here. Of course, Ike has Ragnell, but he's not alone. Besides, they aren't ORKOing snipers with ranged weapons anyway (aside from Ike and probably Gats with a forged hand axe). As for forging, I suppose you could, except if you are putting crit on everything and saying that Marcia can't afford one as a result, I have to figure the hand axes aren't getting forged either. Also, Gats will do less damage to Generals this way.

Sigrun and Tanith are blocking, remember? Do you really think it is more efficient to have them scooping up kills and attacks and leaving units like Oscar/Mia/Shinon/Ike behind because nobody is letting them run over pits?

They can’t kill and canto onto a trap?

So do you know how to move the traps and enemies to make this actually work? Tell me how.

Don't forget, in 3-E she is one of the few that can run to the northwest without getting slept

The 3-E bishop has 22 mag, and if your res matches his mag, you have a really low probability of falling asleep. Most people can manage that easily with spirit water. If that weren’t enough, you have staff users who use restore. Seriously, who’s afraid of going up there?

Restore has 1 range. Also, getting slept means no attacking on enemy phase. Also, only fliers are getting there quick. Pure water might be enough to make the guy sleep a tiger instead of Haar, though. You could manage with some of them, though one of them must go east anyway.

so she can speed up the killing of the paladins up there with a horseslayer

You know the horseslayer is OPed, right? You could put that into anyone’s hands and they’d 1HKO a paladin.

Gee, that's nice. Except they wouldn't be there. They'd be about 5 or more spaces south of wherever she is.

4-E-2 and beyond she can have wishblade. Let's see, she doubles, has 9 move, has canto, has fire, and isn't that far off from Nephenee's str. If Marcia is in the tower, I think that's a pretty good amount of utility she's getting there.

What happened to all your Doritos-economic-profit concepts? Did they just fly out the window? If Marcia isn’t the best user of the wishblade, she’s not getting it (outside of trading it around 24/7), and even if she does get to use it, it’s only as good as the next best person, which is basically a tie (presumably Neph).

How is she not at least as good as Neph? I'm suggesting she is doritos for the Wishblade. Neph is at best 1 or 2 mt higher than Marcia for this purpose, but superior move and canto and wyrmslayer ability (surely by now you'll let her have B swords) make her a better choice for the tower and if Neph isn't there she can't compete for the Wishblade. Even if she is there, 9 move and canto is superior for the last two maps. 4-E-2 doesn't matter too much. And as for 4-E-3, she'll spend a lot of time with the wyrmslayer anyway, so even if an extra two move and flight and canto doesn't make you think she'll get the Wishblade, wyrmslayer makes her care a little less.

If she is being compared to Soren, I'm really not seeing what Soren can do in comparison without giving him wings and multiple levels of bexp at once rather than over time and crowns better used on other units.

You guys hype availability to the point where it’s the sole reason Mia is above the Hawks (or just about), how about applying it here? Soren has 9 chapters to Marcia’s 4 (even though 2-P should be like 0.1), so according to this thread’s own logic, Marcia has to be more than twice as good as Soren to beat him in parts 2+3. That’s just not happening.

Mia's one of the best on the team. There are other units that are as good or a bit better, but she's not nearly in the same boat as good ol' Soren. Don't try to tell me that we are being inconsistent in this. Counting 4-E as 2 chapters, Marcia has 8 chapters, Soren has 15 chapters. So twice as good would be somewhat accurate, except for what he is doing in part 3.

And no, transfers do not exist when considering Marcia (N), considering the original list is created with that in mind. No other (N) unit has to deal with the existence of (T)s, so why should Marcia? Oh right, sandbagging. I get it.

Marcia (T) and Marcia (N) are two different characters. My argument was aimed towards Marcia (N). Oh right, strange accusations that make no sense. I get it.

Um, you suggested that since the Ts are on the list that there are even more units doubling in 3-11. I'm telling you that as far as Marcia (N) is concerned, none of them exist. Also, Soren (N) gets godstomped by many of the (T)s that would exist for all of part 3 if Marcia has to contend with them in 3-11. So Soren is even worse relative to the team than before for those chapters. Hence why I'm complaining that Marcia seems to be the only one in competition with the Ts.

And what do you mean by "detriment" for the +5 mt lance? Why doesn't everyone have a good forge. Money may not grow on trees, but you have a large amount. I think I should have just not even bothered after seeing that statement (obvious giga-sandbagging alert) but oh well.

Why doesn’t everyone have a good forge? Because it’s fucking expensive.

Take a steel axe (one of the least expensive weapon types btw). Try and be smart with it by giving it +3 mt, +15 hit and +15 crit. The cost goes from 640g to 1728. Make 3 weapons like that and your blue gem that was sent over from the DB is already gone. Oh, but let’s suppose someone wants better 1-2 range. A forged hand axe with 5 mt/20 hit costs 2562g. Just two of those = the blue gem. Now let’s give Mia her crit forge. +25 crit alone costs 2000g, and we probably want to add mt onto that too. These are just expenses before satisfying basic necessities, such as getting olivi grass for laguz, buying some regular weapons (believe it or not forges don’t last forever) and healing items.

Here is some personal experience for you. I am hoarding money like crazy on my current playthrough, conserving good weapons and only using the cheapest ones in combat. Before 3-11’s money dump, I only have around 24k after selling everything I sold, though let’s say it’s actually 30k. Let’s see what that money can produce in terms of forges:

Steel lance: 3 mt/10 hit/15 crit = 3072g. Makes 10 forges.

Javelin: same stats = 2880g. Makes 10.7 forges.

Hand axe: same stats = 2999g. Makes 10 forges

Steel bow: 5 mt = 3675 g. Makes 8 forges.

Thunder: 3 mt/20 crit = 3872g. Makes 7.7 forges

Steel sword: 2 mt/25 crit = 3120g. Makes 10 forges.

You can manipulate the costs a little for some reasonable savings, but nonetheless you can only really afford a single forge per unit. The problem is, a 40 use weapon isn’t going to last someone 8 chapters, and hand weapons don’t last long at all. The constraints on forge spending alone is quite significant.

Sigh.

But again, a lot of this is just to point out that she's not a negative here.

Did I ever say she was? If you’re applying a gross system, it would be ludicrous for me to make the claim in the first place.

Now here’s my problem:

I'm not sure what we apply here. Ed would probably go higher if it was purely gross, considering he is good in part 4 if you raised him. Or decent, anyway.

The utility she gives by KOing mages and allowing the other pegs to block pits and allow the other fliers to KO other things (speeding up the chapter) is still there, and when Marcia can't do those things she's neutral at worse.

This entire post all you’ve focused on is Marcia’s combat alone, but come 3-11 you have to compare it to Soren’s otherwise you’re venting hot air. I honestly would do it right now, but I’m fed up of arguing.

Meh, I briefly mentioned Soren. Oh well. I've looked at Soren before, though, and all he's doubling is Generals in part 4. And after 4-1, that was basically assuming the 3-9 wing on him (I was being nice that day). In fact, even in 4-1 he needs it for some of them, since I have doubts about his ability to hit 26 AS or 27 AS. 26 AS could happen, I suppose, so it is fortunate that 4-1 only has one with 23 AS. The cute part was that he needed Rexcalibur for some of them, though maybe that was without a support. Also, it was just at the beginning of the chapter, since an 80% mag growth means that as he levels he needs less mt on his tome (duh).

(So anyway, since I'm kinda sick of this too, I figure since RFoF was already defending the legitimacy of Soren and Marcia's current positions, I don't need to bother anymore with this unless she says she's considering the change. I'm uncertain whether anything I did here makes things look better or worse for Marcia than if I'd just left your posts against Marcia alone and let it die (assuming it would die), but oh well.)

Edited December 21, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Paperblade]

Sigh.

Ahahahaha.

I was hoping you'd explain what we're doing where every unit on our team can afford a weapon that's 120g per attack.

[Narga_Rocks]

Sigh.

Ahahahaha.

I was hoping you'd explain what we're doing where every unit on our team can afford a weapon that's 120g per attack.

Why bother? Not very many people have questioned the ability to make these forges. It's PE vs. PE at this point, considering I've never had his apparent issues with forges. There's not much to say, really. I mean, you even get an influx of money in 3-11 from the CRK and from a convo in 3-11, just in time for Marcia and her CRK friends.