OMG it's a tier list

[Paperblade]

Yeah, I hear personal experience dictates how much gold forges cost and how much a blue gem sells for.

[Narga_Rocks]

Yeah, I hear personal experience dictates how much gold forges cost and how much a blue gem sells for.

I get what you are saying, but honestly I bought plenty of forges for multiple units and was able to win maps quite easily and quickly. And on top of all that, we are talking about 3-11 here where you just received 20000 G from a convo in addition to whatever the CRK have left over. If that isn't deserving of a "sigh" when told Marcia's forge is a negative, I don't know what else does.

Also, he said 30k (it's possible for more, at least a few chapters from 3-2) and kept sticking 15 crit on everything when for most units that amounts to about 9 crit on enemies or less because of low skill and high enemy luck. Basically, he's wasting money and saying that Marcia can't get a forge because of it. I suppose it is balanced by the fact he put less mt on the sword than I would, but overall I think his suggestions are costing more than what I'd suggest. And that is where we get into PE, by the way.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

How is Ulki getting a strength transfer?

He starts at 23.2/26, or 2.8 away with 13 levels left.

So, assuming he gets a str band and fights only str boosting enemies, he can get at most 1.3 points of alteration, leaving him 1.5 away.

Energy drop makes this possible but it could also help Lucia, Brom, Shinon, Geoffrey, and Elincia, and others and there are only two of them.

[Interceptor]

Vykan and Paperblade, you both need to read the thread linked in my sig, WRT the GMs and Funds. Proceed directly to that thread, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. It's not a long thread, there are plenty of bullet points, and only the OP is important.

I was hoping you'd explain what we're doing where every unit on our team can afford a weapon that's 120g per attack.

There's a bit of begging the question going on here, in what is one of your classic content-free, intellectually craven contributions to the tier list archives. The cost-per-use of a weapon is not the bottom line of whether something is worth doing, nor is really reasonable to give expensive forges to people that benefit little from them. It is silly, for example, to forge +15 crit for a unit that gets LCK'ed down to ~9% and 2HKOs with generic weapons anyway. It's better than a plain weapon, technically, but the benefit garnered is unreliable and small compared to the expense.

Regarding personal experience, I am surprised at you, Vykan. I don't know what your major malfunction is, but surely you can see how your playthrough has a significant departure from the sort of efficient playthrough that this tier list measures. Not only are you not accounting for all of the gold leaks (to the DB, which in an efficient run doesn't use a whole lot of cash), but you're not accounting for additional sources of gold, either, on top of assuming some dubious forge expenses. Your choices make sense for your own purposes, but do not necessarily extend to efficient play.

I'm reminded of an age-old "argument" with smash, where he dutifully went through Aimee's Bargains and listed off everything that was "nice" (his word), as a counter to the gobs of cash that are sloshing around in this game, notwithstanding the niggling little problem that he almost bought enough gear to last for two consecutive playthroughs.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Interceptor

[grandjackal]

I'm not one way or the other on this just yet, but if I may point out a couple things?

She's not there to ORKO him, she's there to attack him, he jumps down after, Kieran attacks him, and Marcia KOs him. It works. Also, if she uses a killer lance (9mt) she does 8 damage at base. If she crits, she does 24. If she doesn't, Kieran attacks for 19, Marcia KOs. Alternatively, Kieran attacks with a killer axe (10 mt, 14 damage), the halb has 13 hp because Kieran didn't crit, and Marcia KOs with a steel greatlance. Or, Kieran crits and it dies. Or Marcia crits the first time and Kieran KOs with, well, just about anything considering the thing has 11 hp left and Kieran needs just 28 mt (iron axe).

Note that Kieran can attack with a killer axe on his own (3HKO) in the hopes of pulling a crit, but without critting he can't KO the following round (14 + 19 = 33) and so it takes 3 rounds. Using Marcia provides two chances to crit in order to reduce the number of rounds needed to KO, and only she can attack before it jumps down (probably not at his starting position, but the first time he moves he can't quite jump down so she can attack his second position.)

I don't think you can make him attack Kieran at 1 range on enemy phase, considering the layout.

This brings me to the boss, of which you said would require another to kill after Geoff braves him. From what I gather, it would require someone to kill the halberdier be it Keiran or Marcia. If one of them does that, you are basically relying on luck to kill the boss the same way it would be with Haar on Ludveck. Speaking of which, of the Halberdier can't move on his own to attack Keiran on the ground floor, how is Marcia attacking him changing anything? This would mean she has to lure the guy away while still being on the archer platform, where she'd get riddled with arrows.

Maybe I misread something here, but something about this paragraph just struck me funny.

Letting Elincia attack twice on the same turn is really the only way to pull that off (Haar can miss), and for that you have to clear the way so that she can get down there and get back to a spot for Leanne. I'm not convinced that Haar can pull that off on his own even with a speedwing, though it is possible I could be wrong. Well, Meteor, I suppose. If he gets hit once with Meteor, anyone know if the priest will heal him? That would be a problem, since Meteor is somewhat inaccurate here, so it's better to use it on an earlier turn. Anyway, with Meteor help Elincia can ORKO (I think), and she has 100% hit, so that might be a way to go about it without Marcia.

I recall there being many ways of thinking through how it's possible to smoke Ludveck as fast as possible back when I was trying to argue Calill up. Either way it would just seem it's easier than it seems, if there's more than one way. So what if Haar's not the exact key for a fast completion of the chapter? We got plenty of keys.

So do you know how to move the traps and enemies to make this actually work? Tell me how.

Last I checked, enemies usually are not standing far away from holes.

Restore has 1 range. Also, getting slept means no attacking on enemy phase. Also, only fliers are getting there quick. Pure water might be enough to make the guy sleep a tiger instead of Haar, though. You could manage with some of them, though one of them must go east anyway.

We got plenty of hasbin units to distract the sleepers, letting them sleep useless units. We lose no one we actually care to use efficiently, and we don't even need to use restore. Win win.

Also, Ike seems a far more vulnerable target for Sleep than Haar is, especially if Haar's crowned or promoted. In fact, Ike is your most sleep-vulnerable unit. Seeing as he's always gonna be there...

How is she not at least as good as Neph? I'm suggesting she is doritos for the Wishblade. Neph is at best 1 or 2 mt higher than Marcia for this purpose, but superior move and canto and wyrmslayer ability (surely by now you'll let her have B swords) make her a better choice for the tower and if Neph isn't there she can't compete for the Wishblade. Even if she is there, 9 move and canto is superior for the last two maps. 4-E-2 doesn't matter too much. And as for 4-E-3, she'll spend a lot of time with the wyrmslayer anyway, so even if an extra two move and flight and canto doesn't make you think she'll get the Wishblade, wyrmslayer makes her care a little less.

This is applying that you're using Marcia seriously. If Marcia's not the most efficient team (which this list assumes we are doing), why would we even bother? Nephs got far more time to be trained up while not necessarily stinking up the team (not as bad as Marcia is when she joins up with the GM at least), Neph has an excuse where Marcia doesn't.

Using her immediately after part 2 and 3-9 is akin to playing inefficient, even if she does recover in part 4. So why would you use her? I'd have to see her being used up until Wishblade be justified. Anyhting special about her aside rom how useful flight utility (not necessarily fighting) is in DB's part 4, the poorest exp source of the routes?

Mia's one of the best on the team. There are other units that are as good or a bit better, but she's not nearly in the same boat as good ol' Soren. Don't try to tell me that we are being inconsistent in this. Counting 4-E as 2 chapters, Marcia has 8 chapters, Soren has 15 chapters. So twice as good would be somewhat accurate, except for what he is doing in part 3.

I think the point here was that there is a period of time that we have no reason not to use Soren because there's no one better to fill his slot. It's the same for Marcia, but she has not as long, and I don't think she could be as helpful (she gets us trinkets (if you ignore Haar and Neal existing for 2-E), but Soren actually does significant chipping and is around longer).

I'm not sure what we apply here. Ed would probably go higher if it was purely gross, considering he is good in part 4 if you raised him. Or decent, anyway.

You just applied it to Marcia in this very post with her part 4...

Meh, I briefly mentioned Soren. Oh well. I've looked at Soren before, though, and all he's doubling is Generals in part 4. And after 4-1, that was basically assuming the 3-9 wing on him (I was being nice that day). In fact, even in 4-1 he needs it for some of them, since I have doubts about his ability to hit 26 AS or 27 AS. 26 AS could happen, I suppose, so it is fortunate that 4-1 only has one with 23 AS. The cute part was that he needed Rexcalibur for some of them, though maybe that was without a support. Also, it was just at the beginning of the chapter, since an 80% mag growth means that as he levels he needs less mt on his tome (duh).

He hits his cap ramming deals at level 10. 5 levels doesn't seem harsh, considering he's a bit lower leveled than a majority of the mercs. He would need to be slowplayed, but is that really asking much? 3 slowplay levels nets him his speed cap (25% chance he would perhaps need another), which he could nab a later coming crown. Considering this doesn't seem too hard to get him to while still in part 3, 25 AS could be doubling while he's still in part 3. On top of it, he'd have staffs, which helps net him more exp than your average tier 3 would.

26 AS doesn't sound too ridiculous. Not any more ridiculous than Marcia being babied to be somewhat better than Nephenee for part 4.

Of course, this is if Soren getting that sort of leveling isn't too stupifying. Considering he's getting a level 3 kills and a chip in his debut....

Geh, I am getting out of line halfway through this. One thing I won't touch is the forge issue, cause I saw that when it went down. Not touching that with a 10 foot pole.

[Dat Nick]

guys we totally spend 2.6k for 5 crit on a killing edge for Myrmidon Cain in C9, this is common knowledge of FE debating and anybody who doesnt know this should be placed on the softban list

yeah both sides of this debate really need to learn how2forge

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm not one way or the other on this just yet, but if I may point out a couple things?

no.

This brings me to the boss, of which you said would require another to kill after Geoff braves him. From what I gather, it would require someone to kill the halberdier be it Keiran or Marcia. If one of them does that, you are basically relying on luck to kill the boss the same way it would be with Haar on Ludveck. Speaking of which, of the Halberdier can't move on his own to attack Keiran on the ground floor, how is Marcia attacking him changing anything? This would mean she has to lure the guy away while still being on the archer platform, where she'd get riddled with arrows.

Maybe I misread something here, but something about this paragraph just struck me funny.

It requires luck to cut out a turn. It doesn't require luck to not die. Basically, it takes the halb two turns to jump down. After his first turn, Marcia attacks. At this point, Kieran is hopefully chopping the door into pieces since axes do extra damage, and Geoffrey is getting into position. Boss attacks Geoffrey on enemy phase.

Then the halb jumps down. Now Kieran attacks again. This is two attempts with killer weapons, giving us around 50% chance to already be done and have Marcia KO the boss, allowing Geoffrey to seize. If it didn't work, then Marcia has to ko the halb. Now Geoffrey KOs the boss, and it's the same number of turns as without Marcia.

Marcia gives us a 50% chance to go faster. Without her, the halb jumps down and Kieran can't attack with a killer since if he fails to crit he 3RKOs. The boss needs to die on player phase because otherwise he'll get healed. Does anybody remember the order? I'm pretty sure that the physic using enemy will not heal the boss if the boss gets hurt by Geoffrey on enemy phase. Anyway, he'll get healed if Geoff doesn't KO him, and Kieran is attacking the halb. So to ensure the 2RKO Kieran must not attack with a killer, so there is no ~30% chance of speeding up. Danved isn't anywhere nearby (not fast enough). Makalov technically could help on the halb, if you like, but Mak gets us bexp by staying in the back since he keeps enemies off the partners.

Oh, and I have no idea where he came up with 51% damage for Mak to cause. He has swords, so one less mt than Marcia can have, but he has 1 more str. With a steel greatlance, she does 13 damage. With a steel blade, he does 14 damage. Kieran does 19 damage, so the two of them can't ORKO the halb together anyway. Kieran could use a killer now, and Mak will cause enough damage that they can KO the following round if Kieran doesn't crit and Mak can KO the boss if Kieran does, but:

Now, if you want Mak going up with Kieran and Geoffrey, they take up more space. I suppose that's okay, but then Marcia + Mak + Kieran now KO the halb, and Mak + Kieran certainly don't on their own. So Marcia attacks as I said before, then on the following turn Mak + Kieran attack while Marcia KOs the boss, and Geoffrey seizes.

So she either has a ~50% chance of speeding us up (Mak not there at all) or 100% chance of cutting a turn (instead of ~30%) if Mak is there.

Either way, hello faster.

So do you know how to move the traps and enemies to make this actually work? Tell me how.

Last I checked, enemies usually are not standing far away from holes.

Well, taking out the mages causes units to go along the bottom. I think the top is faster. Anyway, you could in theory have Tanith or Sigrun attack and block a hole on the bottom, if you like. But then most of your units must go along the bottom.

We got plenty of hasbin units to distract the sleepers, letting them sleep useless units. We lose no one we actually care to use efficiently, and we don't even need to use restore. Win win.

I really don't like the suicide idea, considering they get hammered on enemy phase and things that could have died don't. But the pure water idea is probably enough to make Haar able to go north anyway, and all you need is more res than tigers (dude sleeps tigers). Still, if she can do the same as others can do, she's not part of an inefficient team here, don't you think?

Also, Ike seems a far more vulnerable target for Sleep than Haar is, especially if Haar's crowned or promoted. In fact, Ike is your most sleep-vulnerable unit. Seeing as he's always gonna be there...

Why would you put him in range if he's going to be slept? He can take multiple attacks, so you end up with multiple uncountered things. Besides, a pure water on him will make him have more res than tigers even if bexp didn't pull that off.

This is applying that you're using Marcia seriously. If Marcia's not the most efficient team (which this list assumes we are doing), why would we even bother? Nephs got far more time to be trained up while not necessarily stinking up the team (not as bad as Marcia is when she joins up with the GM at least), Neph has an excuse where Marcia doesn't.

We are rating Marcia aren't we? Use her. Besides, I've spent time showing that she isn't slowing us down in part 3. Dispute that and I may listen to suggestions that Marcia can't get her part 4. Oh, and suggesting Marcia is stinking up the team when she isn't? Annoying. She's not Eddie in part 1.

Using her immediately after part 2 and 3-9 is akin to playing inefficient,

is not.

even if she does recover in part 4. So why would you use her?

Do you understand neutral? That means not a negative. In other words, since we are attempting to use characters for maximum efficiency they get used when neutral if there is positive in their future.

I'd have to see her being used up until Wishblade be justified. Anyhting special about her aside rom how useful flight utility (not necessarily fighting) is in DB's part 4, the poorest exp source of the routes?

You still haven't shown how she's somehow inefficient.

Mia's one of the best on the team. There are other units that are as good or a bit better, but she's not nearly in the same boat as good ol' Soren. Don't try to tell me that we are being inconsistent in this. Counting 4-E as 2 chapters, Marcia has 8 chapters, Soren has 15 chapters. So twice as good would be somewhat accurate, except for what he is doing in part 3.

I think the point here was that there is a period of time that we have no reason not to use Soren because there's no one better to fill his slot. It's the same for Marcia, but she has not as long, and I don't think she could be as helpful (she gets us trinkets (if you ignore Haar and Neal existing for 2-E), but Soren actually does significant chipping and is around longer).

Read better. He's only got 3-P, 3-1, 3-2, 3-5 (lots of deployment slots in 3-5. Only one unit can't be deployed) where there aren't enough units that Soren can be forced out for someone else. At best, he's looking at neutral during that time (when not free, like 3-3). Marcia also happens to have 4 chapters where she is free to use (like him, except 3-5 he's not technically free). And what does Soren really do in 3-P? A couple of attacks before out of range (6 move and thickets)? Look, I already did a thing explaining his part 3. Find that and counter it if you want. I'm not typing it again.

I'm not sure what we apply here. Ed would probably go higher if it was purely gross, considering he is good in part 4 if you raised him. Or decent, anyway.

You just applied it to Marcia in this very post with her part 4...

read better.

He hits his cap ramming deals at level 10. 5 levels doesn't seem harsh, considering he's a bit lower leveled than a majority of the mercs. He would need to be slowplayed, but is that really asking much? 3 slowplay levels nets him his speed cap (25% chance he would perhaps need another), which he could nab a later coming crown. Considering this doesn't seem too hard to get him to while still in part 3, 25 AS could be doubling while he's still in part 3. On top of it, he'd have staffs, which helps net him more exp than your average tier 3 would.

4 levels, not 3. With his growths, you can't assume he gets spd each time. Sorry. I'm sure it's more than 25% chance to need 4. Anyway, that's 4 chapters if you are slowplaying, and he first needs to get 5 levels before then with player phase only offence. Fortunately enemies get weakened on enemy phase so he can get a fair amount of kills, but even so I'm not sure he's getting this done until 3-4 at the earliest. 3-4 base, 3-5 base, 3-7 base, 3-8 base. He could take until 3-8 just to get 23 AS, and the only crowns he has a shot at are in 3-11 anyway.

26 AS doesn't sound too ridiculous.

xx/1 in 3-11. I'm sure he'll hit 26 AS sometime during 4-1, and he does have a chance at 26 AS to start it. If he gets two levels before then he has 57.75% chance. Remember that 3-E is like 5 turns or less, though. Being able to heal for 11 exp sounds nice, but that's still 19 heals in two chapters. Being promoted, he'll get less exp than he would if he wasn't. I'm not entirely sure how much he gets for kills in 3-11. And this also ignores that basically all GMs that haven't yet promoted are approximately equal for crowns in 3-11, so it's not like he should be getting credit for that.

Not any more ridiculous than Marcia being babied to be somewhat better than Nephenee for part 4.

I'm never helping you again like with Lethe and the Yuria not getting Narga thing.

Of course, this is if Soren getting that sort of leveling isn't too stupifying. Considering he's getting a level 3 kills and a chip in his debut....

How? He's level 5. Enemies are like 7 to 9.

(deltalevel) x 1.5 + 20 = 26 on a level 9 enemy, 23 on a level 7 enemy.

(deltalevel) x 0.5 + 5 = 6 on a level 7 enemy, 7 on a level 9 enemy.

26 x 3 = 78. + 7 = 85. So 85 exp from 3 kills (of level 9 enemies) and 1 hit (on a level 9 enemy).

And there's only like 5 enemies in 3-P that are level 9. The rest are lower.

There's only 2 in 3-1 that are level 9 (well, and the boss).

Using level 8 enemies and rounding down, 3 x 1.5 = 4 and 3 x .5 = 1.

So 24 exp and 6 exp.

72 + 6 = 78 exp from 3 kills and 1 hit.

With his move, etc ... I'm not really seeing level 10 before 3-4, and I'm not sure he can reach 10.8 for cheap bexp by the end of 3-3. I'm not 100% sure on this. Maybe it's easier than I think. But I doubt it.

One thing I won't touch is the forge issue, cause I saw that when it went down. Not touching that with a 10 foot pole.

And yet you have been quite anti-Marcia.

Actually, even if she needed massive babying for one chapter, here's what makes her different from dudes like Eddie: They need it for longer. 8 chapters of babying with 3 chapters of good (for example) is quite different from 1 chapter of babying with 5 chapters of good. It is far from inconsistent to allow one but deny the other.

Still, at least you aren't messing with the forge thing.

@Marshall Lawl

All I really want is a +5 mt steel forge with at least +10 hit on Marcia in 3-11 after we just got over 20000 gp from a convo. Or the remnants of whatever steel forge was created earlier for a unit that is no longer being used because rating Marcia means using her from 3-11 on if she feels like it. Am I needing to learn how to forge?

(I think 3744 is the cost. 4224 for +5 mt, +15 hit.)

[Dat Nick]

All I really want is a +5 mt steel forge with at least +10 hit on Marcia in 3-11 after we just got over 20000 gp from a convo. Or the remnants of whatever steel forge was created earlier for a unit that is no longer being used because rating Marcia means using her from 3-11 on if she feels like it. Am I needing to learn how to forge?

dude it's a joke chill

im not taking sides in this, that should have been obvious

Edited December 22, 2009 by Marshall Lawl

[Narga_Rocks]

All I really want is a +5 mt steel forge with at least +10 hit on Marcia in 3-11 after we just got over 20000 gp from a convo. Or the remnants of whatever steel forge was created earlier for a unit that is no longer being used because rating Marcia means using her from 3-11 on if she feels like it. Am I needing to learn how to forge?

dude it's a joke chill

im not taking sides in this, that should have been obvious

I was just asking. I hope that didn't sound harsh, but I wanted to know if you took issue with the forge. I might actually listen to you.

[grandjackal]

no.

Raghgrfraghrgh-*grumbles*

It requires luck to cut out a turn. It doesn't require luck to not die. Basically, it takes the halb two turns to jump down. After his first turn, Marcia attacks. At this point, Kieran is hopefully chopping the door into pieces since axes do extra damage, and Geoffrey is getting into position. Boss attacks Geoffrey on enemy phase.

Then the halb jumps down. Now Kieran attacks again. This is two attempts with killer weapons, giving us around 50% chance to already be done and have Marcia KO the boss, allowing Geoffrey to seize. If it didn't work, then Marcia has to ko the halb. Now Geoffrey KOs the boss, and it's the same number of turns as without Marcia.

Marcia gives us a 50% chance to go faster. Without her, the halb jumps down and Kieran can't attack with a killer since if he fails to crit he 3RKOs. The boss needs to die on player phase because otherwise he'll get healed. Does anybody remember the order? I'm pretty sure that the physic using enemy will not heal the boss if the boss gets hurt by Geoffrey on enemy phase. Anyway, he'll get healed if Geoff doesn't KO him, and Kieran is attacking the halb. So to ensure the 2RKO Kieran must not attack with a killer, so there is no ~30% chance of speeding up. Danved isn't anywhere nearby (not fast enough). Makalov technically could help on the halb, if you like, but Mak gets us bexp by staying in the back since he keeps enemies off the partners.

Oh, and I have no idea where he came up with 51% damage for Mak to cause. He has swords, so one less mt than Marcia can have, but he has 1 more str. With a steel greatlance, she does 13 damage. With a steel blade, he does 14 damage. Kieran does 19 damage, so the two of them can't ORKO the halb together anyway. Kieran could use a killer now, and Mak will cause enough damage that they can KO the following round if Kieran doesn't crit and Mak can KO the boss if Kieran does, but:

Now, if you want Mak going up with Kieran and Geoffrey, they take up more space. I suppose that's okay, but then Marcia + Mak + Kieran now KO the halb, and Mak + Kieran certainly don't on their own. So Marcia attacks as I said before, then on the following turn Mak + Kieran attack while Marcia KOs the boss, and Geoffrey seizes.

So she either has a ~50% chance of speeding us up (Mak not there at all) or 100% chance of cutting a turn (instead of ~30%) if Mak is there.

Either way, hello faster.

So in a weird way, Mak gets partial credit?

Last I checked, enemies usually are not standing far away from holes.

Well, taking out the mages causes units to go along the bottom. I think the top is faster. Anyway, you could in theory have Tanith or Sigrun attack and block a hole on the bottom, if you like. But then most of your units must go along the bottom.

Very well then, but if you could refresh my memory, are Tibarn and his group commandable, or they just green? Cause if they're commandable, I don't see the problem.

I really don't like the suicide idea, considering they get hammered on enemy phase and things that could have died don't. But the pure water idea is probably enough to make Haar able to go north anyway, and all you need is more res than tigers (dude sleeps tigers). Still, if she can do the same as others can do, she's not part of an inefficient team here, don't you think?

When you say others, what do you mean exactly? Suicide units? Cause her taking a sleep is less likely than the minimal, who are more likely to get slept.

Why would you put him in range if he's going to be slept? He can take multiple attacks, so you end up with multiple uncountered things. Besides, a pure water on him will make him have more res than tigers even if bexp didn't pull that off.

It's not so much that it's done on purpose, but rather that if it happens then the sleeper is no question gonna go for Ike. This means that Haar getting targeted is less likely than it's being made out to be, unless you're saying we hold Ike back.

But you have a point in the pure water. Either way, it seems you agree that the sleeper has better people to target than Haar, so Haar taking him out won't be a problem.

We are rating Marcia aren't we? Use her. Besides, I've spent time showing that she isn't slowing us down in part 3. Dispute that and I may listen to suggestions that Marcia can't get her part 4. Oh, and suggesting Marcia is stinking up the team when she isn't? Annoying. She's not Eddie in part 1.

Most others tend to be ignored when we "use them", cause they're rubbish at that time. What makes Marcia the exception?

But fine, I'll humor you. Let's say she's level 9 when she shows back up with the mercs. 4 chapters. We could end one of those chapters in 1 turn, and the other doesn't even really require us to be in any sort of danger. But hey, we get Paragon, I think 4 levels seems fine.

36.8 HP, 17.2 Str, 18.6 Skill, 22.6 Speed, 14 Luck, 17.4 Def, 16.4 Res

Base Oscar

38 HP, 20 Str, 22 Skill, 21 Speed, 18 Luck, 17 Def, 13 Res

Wow, could have not trained Oscar at all, and he'd still be doing better. Well ok, she can double

2x Axe Paladin lvl 13 (Steel Axe)

HP 39, Atk 32, AS 18, Hit 136, Avo 57, Def 19, Res 12, Crit 10, Ddg 16

2x Axe General Lvl 14 (Steel Poleaxe)

42HP, 38 Atk, AS 18, Hit 125, Avo 59, Def 26, Res 17, Crit 10, Ddg 18

2x Axe General lvl 14 (Short Axe)

41HP, 36 Atk, AS 18, Hit 124, Avo 58, Def 26, Res 16, Crit 10, Ddg 17

1x Axe General lvl 14 (Hammer, Vulnerary)

41HP, 36 Atk, AS 18, Hit 125, Avo 59, Def 26, Res 16, Crit 10, Ddg 18

2x Bishop Lvl 12 (Ellight, Mend)

31HP, Atk 25, AS 18, Hit 155, Avo 62, Def 13, Res 22, Crit 8, Ddg 21

1x Bishop lvl 13 (Ellight, Mend)

31HP, Atk 25, AS 18, Hit 155, Avo 62, Def 13, Res 23, Crit 8, Ddg 21

1x Bishop Lvl 13 (Purge, Ellight)

31HP, Atk 25, AS 13 (18), Hit 140 (155), Avo 52 (62), Def 13, Res 24, Crit 8, Ddg 21

1x Bishop lvl 13 (Ellight, Physic)

32HP, Atk 25, AS 18, Hit 156, Avo 63, Def 13, Res 24, Crit 8, Ddg 22

These guys, but this is 3-10. No one on your team shouldn't be able to double these guys by now. I could plop a level of BEXP on Oscar instead, and he'd be ORKOing these paladins people with a steel greatlance forge. I could have Oscar 2RKO instead of 3RKO.

It's stupid to assume that I'd just have Oscar at base, or supportless.

This is just Oscar. Boyd could be good by now, Soren could be slowplayed to double these guys (and a few more) at range before the crown of 3-11 where he'd get staffs, we got Shinon, Haar, Mia, Gatrie, Titania, Ranulf, the Hawks, one of our healbots, Nephenee, Reyson, stop me if I'm hitting the unit slot limit.

Then look who shows up.

Tanith

35 HP, 20 Str, 21 Skill, 23 Speed, 22 Luck, 19 Def, 20 Res, far superior affinity.

Forgive me if I could stop caring for Marcia's well being after the bridge. So she could get by after a bit of babying, but by now our army doesn't need babying.

Do you understand neutral? That means not a negative. In other words, since we are attempting to use characters for maximum efficiency they get used when neutral if there

is positive in their future.

Actually, we got plenty of units who'd be better than her by then.

Since when was this attempting to use characters efficiently, by the way? I want to get through the game efficiently. If doing so means not using her, then not using her would be the efficient choice. There are better units than her imediately upon her joining the mercs, her uses stop as soon as the bridge ends where her only real use would be bridging holes and chipping paladins.

So since she is not being the best, using her would indeed be a negative, as not using hte best would be inefficient.

You still haven't shown how she's somehow inefficient.

There are multiple people who are better than her on arrival. Her not being the best is the cause of her being inefficient.

At least Eddie when the people outclassed him showed up, it wasn't necessarily so many as to knock him out of a potential unit slot.

Read better. He's only got 3-P, 3-1, 3-2, 3-5 (lots of deployment slots in 3-5. Only one unit can't be deployed) where there aren't enough units that Soren can be forced out for someone else. At best, he's looking at neutral during that time (when not free, like 3-3). Marcia also happens to have 4 chapters where she is free to use (like him, except 3-5 he's not technically free). And what does Soren really do in 3-P? A couple of attacks before out of range (6 move and thickets)? Look, I already did a thing explaining his part 3. Find that and counter it if you want. I'm not typing it again.

Apparently more than Marcia, who can't possibly effect 2-P from being concluded any easier.

But fine fine, point taken.

read better.

She's not part of the more efficient team after the bridge, my reading's just fine.

4 levels, not 3. With his growths, you can't assume he gets spd each time. Sorry. I'm sure it's more than 25% chance to need 4. Anyway, that's 4 chapters if you are slowplaying, and he first needs to get 5 levels before then with player phase only offence. Fortunately enemies get weakened on enemy phase so he can get a fair amount of kills, but even so I'm not sure he's getting this done until 3-4 at the earliest. 3-4 base, 3-5 base, 3-7 base, 3-8 base. He could take until 3-8 just to get 23 AS, and the only crowns he has a shot at are in 3-11 anyway.

xx/1 in 3-11. I'm sure he'll hit 26 AS sometime during 4-1, and he does have a chance at 26 AS to start it. If he gets two levels before then he has 57.75% chance. Remember that 3-E is like 5 turns or less, though. Being able to heal for 11 exp sounds nice, but that's still 19 heals in two chapters. Being promoted, he'll get less exp than he would if he wasn't. I'm not entirely sure how much he gets for kills in 3-11. And this also ignores that basically all GMs that haven't yet promoted are approximately equal for crowns in 3-11, so it's not like he should be getting credit for that.

Fair enough.

I'm never helping you again like with Lethe and the Yuria not getting Narga thing.

She theoretically joins in 3-10, most likely at level 9. To start doubling things your army isn't already doubling (and killing where she can't), she needs 4 levels, or 3 levels of BEXP. This is to get the 25 speed. If she wants to double regularly in part 4, you need 27 AS, of which she'd need 3 more levels.

7 levels, or 5 and a crown (over others?). Paragon or no, with her performance, it sounds like babying to me, especially with the group she is now rolling with.

How? He's level 5. Enemies are like 7 to 9.

(deltalevel) x 1.5 + 20 = 26 on a level 9 enemy, 23 on a level 7 enemy.

(deltalevel) x 0.5 + 5 = 6 on a level 7 enemy, 7 on a level 9 enemy.

26 x 3 = 78. + 7 = 85. So 85 exp from 3 kills (of level 9 enemies) and 1 hit (on a level 9 enemy).

And there's only like 5 enemies in 3-P that are level 9. The rest are lower.

There's only 2 in 3-1 that are level 9 (well, and the boss).

Using level 8 enemies and rounding down, 3 x 1.5 = 4 and 3 x .5 = 1.

So 24 exp and 6 exp.

72 + 6 = 78 exp from 3 kills and 1 hit.

With his move, etc ... I'm not really seeing level 10 before 3-4, and I'm not sure he can reach 10.8 for cheap bexp by the end of 3-3. I'm not 100% sure on this. Maybe it's easier than I think. But I doubt it.

Makes me wonder how every chapter a 10 BEXP buffer for people would help. Not finishing a level, just pumping a bit extra into the meter. Side note sure, but it's a thought.

And yet you have been quite anti-Marcia.

So I can be stubborn.

Actually, even if she needed massive babying for one chapter, here's what makes her different from dudes like Eddie: They need it for longer. 8 chapters of babying with 3 chapters of good (for example) is quite different from 1 chapter of babying with 5 chapters of good. It is far from inconsistent to allow one but deny the other.

That's not exactly helping your case, because it's far from needing 1 chapter of babying.

True that perhaps it's not 8 chapters of babying, but it's more than 1, let's not exagerate here.

Still, at least you aren't messing with the forge thing.

I never did like the forge...

[Narga_Rocks]

So in a weird way, Mak gets partial credit?

If you like. I'm not sure where I'd rather put him, though. It's easier to just leave him on a thicket and have him eat herbs and vulneraries as required.

Very well then, but if you could refresh my memory, are Tibarn and his group commandable, or they just green? Cause if they're commandable, I don't see the problem.

They are partners. I tend to ignore them, but I suppose if you plan ahead they might help out. Trouble with them is they move after we do and before enemies, so if you move them in anticipation of what you will do next turn, they'll be ahead of your main force (aside from fliers) and vulnerable to enemies. Also, the non-Tibarn ones don't show up with full gauge, and they need to be on roam for at least one turn to make Tibarn transform, then another turn later (if the hawks are still alive) for the other two to transform. They aren't exactly all that proficient at covering pits in a useful manner.

When you say others, what do you mean exactly? Suicide units? Cause her taking a sleep is less likely than the minimal, who are more likely to get slept.

No, I mean your 7th or so best attacker. The guy doesn't get to do much, whoever he/she is when you only need a few on enemy phase. Everyone else just cleans up. If she 3RKOs and #7 2RKOs but they each OHKO whatever they attack because it was already weakened, she's just as efficient as he is.

It's not so much that it's done on purpose, but rather that if it happens then the sleeper is no question gonna go for Ike. This means that Haar getting targeted is less likely than it's being made out to be, unless you're saying we hold Ike back.

Haar can get in range of the guy on turn 1 (or maybe two). Ike may not be in range yet. If Haar has less res than the tigers he's getting slept. If he's promoted or has a pure water it might not matter, though. Promotion might not be enough, but we can buy pure waters so it doesn't matter.

But you have a point in the pure water. Either way, it seems you agree that the sleeper has better people to target than Haar, so Haar taking him out won't be a problem.

How many good fliers are you using? Janaff and Ulki can't even ORKO the paladins 100% unless they have S strike already. Haar can do it rather easily if he has 24 AS already, even if he isn't promoted but just got a wing. Marcia/Tanith/Sigrun are the others that are capable of wielding the horseslayer. Seems to me they (Haar + whatever peg is being raised) are the best ones to go northwest and due east to clear out the paladins. It also ups their exp gain more than they'd get in the middle with all your other units.

I think that any miss chance Marcia may have with the horseslayer is small in this chapter, thanks to Micaiah having no stars and Ike having 3. Needing two hits may be an issue, except you got a new one in 3-11 and aside from 3-E and 4-P there really isn't much use for it. And even if she misses, allowing those laguz to OHKO the things actually makes it less slow already.

Most others tend to be ignored when we "use them", cause they're rubbish at that time. What makes Marcia the exception?

I specifically said she's not rubbish.

But fine, I'll humor you. Let's say she's level 9 when she shows back up with the mercs. 4 chapters. We could end one of those chapters in 1 turn, and the other doesn't even really require us to be in any sort of danger. But hey, we get Paragon, I think 4 levels seems fine.

level 11 and we'll talk.

Actually, we got plenty of units who'd be better than her by then.

She's the one being rated. As long as she keeps building, she's fine. That's the difference between her and guys like Ed. They have to go from 1-6 until 4-4 being quite bad before being any good, so in the end it is better for their overall score to stop being deployed. Marcia doesn't go into debt by being used. Therefore, she can be used when she is rated.

Since when was this attempting to use characters efficiently, by the way? I want to get through the game efficiently. If doing so means not using her, then not using her would be the efficient choice. There are better units than her imediately upon her joining the mercs, her uses stop as soon as the bridge ends where her only real use would be bridging holes and chipping paladins.

So since she is not being the best, using her would indeed be a negative, as not using hte best would be inefficient.

Um, I've described how she'll be fine there. Since you still don't understand, I'm done. I've tried to show you how it isn't inefficient. You still don't get it. I have to assume you never will.

There are multiple people who are better than her on arrival. Her not being the best is the cause of her being inefficient.

A does not lead to B.

At least Eddie when the people outclassed him showed up, it wasn't necessarily so many as to knock him out of a potential unit slot.

I don't mind using him until 1-6. After that he's got unit slot issues. Also he's a danger to himself in many of the maps before 1-7 anyway. Marcia never is due to flying and canto and half-decent durability and 9 move.

She's not part of the more efficient team after the bridge, my reading's just fine.

She's just as efficient as your other options. Try something else.

She theoretically joins in 3-10, most likely at level 9. To start doubling things your army isn't already doubling (and killing where she can't), she needs 4 levels, or 3 levels of BEXP. This is to get the 25 speed. If she wants to double regularly in part 4, you need 27 AS, of which she'd need 3 more levels.

7 levels, or 5 and a crown (over others?). Paragon or no, with her performance, it sounds like babying to me, especially with the group she is now rolling with.

Level 11, not 9. Even Vykan was willing to give her level 10. She'll be fine AS-wise. And it's not babying when she kills what is left alive on enemy phase. Same deal with Soren. I'm not accusing him of needing babying in his part 3 chapters to get levels. He does it the same as most of the units not Mia/Ike/Titania/Gatrie/Haar. Cleaning up leftovers. She levels just fine without any "babying", unless you define babying in a strange manner.

I never did like the forge...

You like living dangerously, don't you?

[Zkirsche]

I might actually listen to you.

Yes, because listening to the guy who made a fantastic speed run and pretty much knows this game inside out is a completely retarded thing to do, amirite..? Because you act like he has no idea what he's talking about, and by your wording, it sounds like you won't listen to him. Even if he's wrong, don't act as if you're perfect and that he's beneath you.

But, to be fair,(this is a forge for Marcia, right?) you just got 20000 gold, so I don't understand the problem, really. Only Mia, Oscar and and Shinon really want any forges beforehand, and getting just 20000 gold over to the GM's isn't hard (though I'd say going over 30000 is pushing it, as the DB do need some money), and is likely enougth to pay for these forges, especially with the white gem coming up in 3-3. So giving these guys forges and not having the money to spend on them in 3-11 just doesn't seem to be happening IMO.

[Interceptor]

kirsche, are you on drugs? Narga was responding to BBlade, who has admitted to limited knowledge of FE10.

[grandjackal]

To be honest, I'm rather convinced at this point. But pardon me to ask just a bit more to clear things up for me.

If you like. I'm not sure where I'd rather put him, though. It's easier to just leave him on a thicket and have him eat herbs and vulneraries as required.

It's still a weird way to get partial credit.

They are partners. I tend to ignore them, but I suppose if you plan ahead they might help out. Trouble with them is they move after we do and before enemies, so if you move them in anticipation of what you will do next turn, they'll be ahead of your main force (aside from fliers) and vulnerable to enemies. Also, the non-Tibarn ones don't show up with full gauge, and they need to be on roam for at least one turn to make Tibarn transform, then another turn later (if the hawks are still alive) for the other two to transform. They aren't exactly all that proficient at covering pits in a useful manner.

Mkay mkay.

No, I mean your 7th or so best attacker. The guy doesn't get to do much, whoever he/she is when you only need a few on enemy phase. Everyone else just cleans up. If she 3RKOs and #7 2RKOs but they each OHKO whatever they attack because it was already weakened, she's just as efficient as he is.

Don't you mean 3HKOs? You sort of worded this one weirdly, or I'm just having a brain spasm, for some weird reason.

Haar can get in range of the guy on turn 1 (or maybe two). Ike may not be in range yet. If Haar has less res than the tigers he's getting slept. If he's promoted or has a pure water it might not matter, though. Promotion might not be enough, but we can buy pure waters so it doesn't matter.

Well, long as that's over with.

How many good fliers are you using? Janaff and Ulki can't even ORKO the paladins 100% unless they have S strike already. Haar can do it rather easily if he has 24 AS already, even if he isn't promoted but just got a wing. Marcia/Tanith/Sigrun are the others that are capable of wielding the horseslayer. Seems to me they (Haar + whatever peg is being raised) are the best ones to go northwest and due east to clear out the paladins. It also ups their exp gain more than they'd get in the middle with all your other units.

I think that any miss chance Marcia may have with the horseslayer is small in this chapter, thanks to Micaiah having no stars and Ike having 3. Needing two hits may be an issue, except you got a new one in 3-11 and aside from 3-E and 4-P there really isn't much use for it. And even if she misses, allowing those laguz to OHKO the things actually makes it less slow already.

That's the thing, if Haar can do it by himself, why do I need other people?

I specifically said she's not rubbish.

Sometimes I'm too skeptical for my own good.

level 11 and we'll talk.

Lemme guess, not fastforwarding?

She's the one being rated. As long as she keeps building, she's fine. That's the difference between her and guys like Ed. They have to go from 1-6 until 4-4 being quite bad before being any good, so in the end it is better for their overall score to stop being deployed. Marcia doesn't go into debt by being used. Therefore, she can be used when she is rated.

Ed is in debt cause at 1-6 he's pretty much outclassed, of which is the same for Marcia in 3-10 outside of her flier utility, which doesn't require her to gain levls, thus why I can understand why she's in mid.

Not asking she drop to Ed's level here.

Um, I've described how she'll be fine there. Since you still don't understand, I'm done. I've tried to show you how it isn't inefficient. You still don't get it. I have to assume you never will.

Don't worry, just a couple things cleared up and I'll get it fully, and I will thus not question it again.

A does not lead to B.

I'm pretty sure that tier lists tend to measure who the best of the best is.

I don't mind using him until 1-6. After that he's got unit slot issues. Also he's a danger to himself in many of the maps before 1-7 anyway. Marcia never is due to flying and canto and half-decent durability and 9 move.

Thus why she's in Mid and not Lower Mid, I was just questioning why she was that high in mid. You have answered the question well so far.

She's just as efficient as your other options. Try something else.

If she is, I think some of the GM are a bit overrated. That's just me though.

Level 11, not 9. Even Vykan was willing to give her level 10. She'll be fine AS-wise. And it's not babying when she kills what is left alive on enemy phase. Same deal with Soren. I'm not accusing him of needing babying in his part 3 chapters to get levels. He does it the same as most of the units not Mia/Ike/Titania/Gatrie/Haar. Cleaning up leftovers. She levels just fine without any "babying", unless you define babying in a strange manner.

So can anyone not the kings of their part, doesn't play out so well for their subordinates usually.

You like living dangerously, don't you?

I loiter around all the time, I live on the edge!

In seriousness though, it just makes me feel dirty, it feels like cheating.

I love FEDS, but the forge is the worst there. Lol, Shiida can OHKO armors and cavs, has huge move and flight, doubles everything.

Just makes things too easy, ya know?

[Zkirsche]

kirsche, are you on drugs? Narga was responding to BBlade, who has admitted to limited knowledge of FE10.

Yes, which he said he "might actually listen to", which I assume means he won't listen to someone, who seems to be Vykan. IF he was talking to Vykan about BBlade then fair enougth as BBlade has, like you said, admitted to not being too knowledgeable of the game.

Of course I do have this awful habit in assuming the wrong thing.

[Florete]

Since it's been brought up multiple times by multiple people (and since I'm skeptical as well), I'd like to bring Mia > Titania into question again. Anyone have some specifics on how that worked?

[Colonel M]

I had some stuff that went toward Titania's favor a bit more, but I'll repost it here:

"You know what... I'm barely going to bother with the comparison because what I'm going to do instead is plug some of the holes in Prog's argument.

First off, with 2 range she can win offensively. Glancing at the 3-2 enemies she can ORKO the Halbs and Paladins pretty easily, whiffing a couple at the worst. This is using the Short Axe, which has 40 uses + 15 from the Tomahawk. This should easily last her for the duration of 3-2 - 3-6 since there isn't many other units who can really use these item as efficiently as her. Add onto Mia's pitiful 2 range, and it just seems like Titania crushes her no matter what in comparison to 2 range. Also allow me to demonstrate that being able to ORKO at 2 range extends her reach against Mia, which while she has a reach of 7 Titania has a reach of about 11.

Prog's comparison should've just added the Speedwing would do it. Hell, if you use 20/20/1 for the instance she can hold off her Speedwing until promotion and gain something like 29 AS, which can double the 3-11 Swordmasters IIRC. She can probably net this faster ~20/18 or 19 pending on the slow BEXP.

Canto is a big boon here. She can easily position herself with a Heron and get Vigored for a second hax phase of combat. This is very relevant as Reyson can vigor up to 4 units. Considering that it is likely he can only vigor one or two normally, Titania being able to Canto can help the Vigor positioning become much easier. It can allow Titania to position herself to help defend a unit such as Shinon easier, etc. Her Movement also helps with BEXP in many ways whether it's lowering the turn count or help save units such as the Cats and Tigers that are straddling on the way up. While the horse is a detriment in 3-7, it's practically the only time Mia can "win" against her in Movement. She ties indoors and Titania can still Canto around after initializing an attack.

I guess to me it seems that pro Mia is not putting up the greatest of arguments to defend her while at the same time pro Titania is only missing a few pieces to the puzzle to make it an actual change, though I do agree Vykan needs to focus on Titania's major wins within this post + the combat demonstrated instead of worrying about trivial and irrelevant things such as "BEXP-ing faster"."

[Florete]

I'd like someone who supports Mia to jump in on this (aka Narga or Interceptor) because I'm really starting to think she needs to go down.

[Inui]

I am in agreement that Mia is overrated and Titania is underrated.

[Florete]

I am in agreement that Mia is overrated and Titania is underrated.

I wouldn't call being near the top of High underrated for Titania....

[Inui]

SHE'S THE BEST!

Well, you're right, THIS tier list doesn't really underrate her. I guess it's others I've seen that do.

[Anouleth]

Why is Bastian a whole tier under Stefan? Bastian is healing and dealing good damage in 4-5, and while he's obviously not as useful as Stefan in Endgame, I don't think the difference between their Endgame performance is large enough to warrant a whole tier between them.

[Inui]

I'm sad I can't find an old debate I did as Bastian where I had data of him owning his joining chapter and actually being pretty good. Meh.

[Anouleth]

Base level Bastian:

45HP 21STR 35MAG 27SKL 24SPD 21LUK 20DEF 32RES

W/Bolganone (effective) has 68mt, OHKOes all but the strongest Tigers.

W/Rexcalibur (effective) has 74mt, OHKOes all Hawks and Ravens.

W/Bolting (effective) has 53mt, ORKOes all but 1 Dragon.

[Colonel M]

Bastian only has one chapter where he's useful: his joining chapter. Even then, look what happens:

8x Cat lvl 24 (S Strike)

49 hp, 35 atk, 28 AS, 162 hit, 73 avo, 20 def, 15.5 res, 14 crit, 11.5 cev

2x Hawk lvl 24 (S Strike)

50 hp, 37 atk, 28 AS, 176 hit, 77 avo, 22 def, 13 res, 16 crit, 16 cev

1x Hawk lvl 25 (S Strike)

51 hp, 37 atk, 28 AS, 178 hit, 79 avo, 23 def, 14 res, 17 crit, 17 cev

2x Raven lvl 23 (S Strike)

46 hp, 31 atk, 31 AS, 161 hit, 83 avo, 13 def, 22 res, 13 crit, 15 cev

4x Raven lvl 24 (S Strike)

47 hp, 32 atk, 32 AS, 163 hit, 85 avo, 13 def, 22 res, 13 crit, 16 cev

As you can see, Bastian is doubled by all of these enemies. His 40% growth might help him avoid the doubling at the least after he nets two levels, but the Ravens seem to double him until Level 13.

Now obviously he's going to be out of base level (even though he's a Tier 3 unit, these are Laguz). He can't double a single unit on the map unless he hits ~28 Spd (to double the Sage and Bishop failures) or 30-31 (to double the Generals). He doesn't even reach 28 Spd until Level 20, so unless you're favoring him with two Speedwings or try to BEXP him (he only caps Skl and Mag at Level 20), then you might as well forget it.

His biggest advantages in Endgame would be 4-E-3 where he can uses Thunder tomes against the Dragons and maybe play as a Healbot. He's got the Mag to do so, but so does Micaiah, and she's forced. I really don't consider ArchSages or Saints to be my top picks here. I think I'd sooner choose Elincia or even Mist (the latter is pretty much outclassed by the former, but she can wield Alondite which already outclasses the ArchSages in 4-E-4 and 5).

So yeah, Bastian just isn't worth it.