OMG it's a tier list

[tehnikhil]

??

I'm guessing the last part is if you crown instead of level?

Anyway, she starts at level 14. If you actually choose to level her then 20/5 seems reasonable. 20/6 if you push it. Of course, I'd think this would basically require killing lots of laguz in 4-5, since if you 2 turn 4-5 I'd think 20/1 or 20/2 is more reasonable.

Yeah, sorry. I forgot a sentence in there that was to reference where you say to get her crowned first thing in part 4. But, since I actually have never used Stefan before, I don't think I will get into a big argument about him. I care more about Neal vs Leo since I have used them both before.

Edited February 24, 2010 by tehnikhil

[grandjackal]

Just to put a bit of a closer to the Lucia vs Stefan issue, just a few final words.

1. A bit of opportunity cost put the Talisman on her, BEXP is quite a bit more potent for her than leveling her normally. You still can, but the BEXP is still there to help. This also helps her performance outside of Endgame, more action she has that Stefan doesn't.

2. She has natural Parity, yet another Endgame winner as it negates things like Degh's Ire, Saint's Flare, Levail's Impale, and most importantly the Aura's reflective damage barrier. It comes natural so it costs nothing to have it on her, so you can still load her up with several skills that won't interfere with her non-boss offense.

3. She is regardlessly forced on Elincia's route to contribute whether you want her to or not. It still helps her immensely, as it's teh most EXP rich route.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Anouleth]

Paragon fixes a lot of her problems.

Stefan is better for 4-E, this is true. He doesn't contribute much in 4-3 (he kills like one enemy). However, Stefan has to beat her by a considerable margin to outweigh her 2-2. Let's do a comparison:

20/6 Lucia (C Elincia)

46.5 HP 24 Str 34 AS 19 Def 23.5 Res 95 Avo

20/8 Stefan

53 HP 27 Str 36 AS 21 Def 16 Res 92 Avo

Stefan wins but's it's not by a huge amount. Lucia is arguably more durable because 1/2 of the 4-E(3) and all of the 4-E(4) and 4-E(5) enemies hit Res anyway.

Lucia will have B Elincia, not C. You underestimate how insanely fast Lucia/Elincia builds, and if you want to bring Lucia to Endgame there's no reason not to accelerate their support as quickly as possible.

[-Cynthia-]

I thought about moving it up to B Elincia, but they do only have 2 pre 4-E chapters, so it depends on how much time we spend on 4-5 and how much adjacency (and heals) we're doing in those chapters.

[Interceptor]

Getting C by the end of 4-2 is a slam dunk. A cursory glance at Lucia's stats tells you there is going to be some Elincia->Lucia healing going on, and you get adjacents like mad just from abusing the Bond support for a boost to Lucia's offense. This is a Rout, it's not finishing anytime soon even if you abuse Tibarn and/or some GM immigrants.

By the end of 4-5... that's a horse of a different color. Lucia and Elincia are starting 4-5 with 1 support point, and they'll get +17 by the end, so you need 32 points in this chapter in order to get a B by the start of 4-E-1. This can be pulled off in 3 turns minimum, but requires Lucia be healed every turn and end next to Elincia, so that's dicey, especially considering that we have a relatively straightforward 2-turn strategy on this chapter solely with the forced units (Tibarn, Raisin, etc), if I recall this chapter's layout correctly.

So I think it's fair to posit that B by 4-E-1 is debatable at the very least, but starting in 4-E-2 it's difficult to say that a B support doesn't exist, since they will absolutely get the rest of the points in that first Rout chapter.

[Anouleth]

Getting C by the end of 4-2 is a slam dunk. A cursory glance at Lucia's stats tells you there is going to be some Elincia->Lucia healing going on, and you get adjacents like mad just from abusing the Bond support for a boost to Lucia's offense. This is a Rout, it's not finishing anytime soon even if you abuse Tibarn and/or some GM immigrants.

By the end of 4-5... that's a horse of a different color. Lucia and Elincia are starting 4-5 with 1 support point, and they'll get +17 by the end, so you need 32 points in this chapter in order to get a B by the start of 4-E-1. This can be pulled off in 3 turns minimum, but requires Lucia be healed every turn and end next to Elincia, so that's dicey, especially considering that we have a relatively straightforward 2-turn strategy on this chapter solely with the forced units (Tibarn, Raisin, etc), if I recall this chapter's layout correctly.

So I think it's fair to posit that B by 4-E-1 is debatable at the very least, but starting in 4-E-2 it's difficult to say that a B support doesn't exist, since they will absolutely get the rest of the points in that first Rout chapter.

I think that if we're one or two turning 4-5, we probably wouldn't bother bringing Lucia to Endgame anyway. She'll be what, 20/20/01? That's 42ATK, so she 5 or 6HKOes Generals... I really don't think it's worth considering.

[Ether]

Bringing up Micky > Elincia again,since a random flood occured.Argument is a couple pages back.

[grandjackal]

That, and I've yet to see an objection to Volug dropping to Sothe's level.

[Interceptor]

I think that if we're one or two turning 4-5, we probably wouldn't bother bringing Lucia to Endgame anyway. She'll be what, 20/20/01? That's 42ATK, so she 5 or 6HKOes Generals... I really don't think it's worth considering.

Well, she is not good, but she's not Tormod bad, so I don't think that it's a waste to send her to Endgame. Despite her shortcomings, she does have excellent crit due to hanging around Elincia, can battle Dragons alright with Wyrmslayer, ORKO spirits with sufficient levels, etc. It's not like the mt to cleanly ORKO Generals without skill activation is common, even wtfTibarn is borderline on some of them. There are certianly no Trueblades, not even Mia or Stefan, that can cleanly kill them. Lucia can still take a kill if she procs Astra, otherwise she weakens one for someone else.

And then, one of the nice things about Endgame for a unit like Lucia is that competition for stuff like Paragon has dropped significantly. Everyone wants skills to ORKO with and/or Nihil/Parity if they want anything at all, so she can join the club that Micaiah is in and pump up her levels. That will give her a little bit of STR, and grow her SPD to the point where it's useful for something.

[tehnikhil]

Also, any objections to Neal vs Leo? Or was there a post I was missing, because from what I saw, there was no real rigorous defense for Leo's spot.

[Narga_Rocks]

So apparently Worm can be forged in the debug map. Anyone want to play hypotheticals and debate his position if you could forge Worm for 4-2 and hand it to him when he shows up? I'm assuming 13mt, 100 hit on the thing, so at base Pelleas has 37 mt and 154 hit instead of what he normally has, which is, at best, 32 mt and 159 hit with a forged thunder or you can have 36 mt and 119 hit with Verrine. Or use Worm or Carreau, but I don't see the point of those.

Max forged Worm is arguably better than Balberith due to hit, and even if you think the +2 mt is worth it there is a chance that he could get +1 or +2 on his forge from a coin.

[Rewjeo]

A thought on the coins: Since their effect isn't random every time you use them, would it be considered alright to go through and figure out what each of your coins does, reset, and then make forges with the extra bonuses from the coins? I know it's a strategy I use, and it definitely helps to get through chapters faster at times.

[Narga_Rocks]

A thought on the coins: Since their effect isn't random every time you use them, would it be considered alright to go through and figure out what each of your coins does, reset, and then make forges with the extra bonuses from the coins? I know it's a strategy I use, and it definitely helps to get through chapters faster at times.

I love doing it, personally, and I once tried to argue for it, but "no resets (aside from death)" is a pretty big staple of tier lists. Personally, it's easy because it takes like 5 minutes of making iron axes and writing down the cards and then you reset and make really nice stuff. It's unlikely that you won't at least get some axe cards. Knight cards are pretty cool too but even with 30 coins you don't have a huge chance of getting at least one. 3% chance, so in 30 coins (if there is that many) you have a 1 - (.97)³⁰ chance of getting at least one. So even after 30 coins it is still only a ~60% chance of having at least 1. Still, if you do that it's hard to say who deserves the good cards the most. I mean, Knight cards and Six Wings can obviously go to either Snipers/Marksman or Swordmasters/Trueblades, but debating who gets the twin swords card (if you get one) and who gets whatever else?

Simpler to just mention the probability of something nice coming out and leave it at that.

[Florete]

If you do that with cards, who's to say we aren't allowed to do the same thing with BEXP levels, or levels you get at the start of a map? It's a nice idea, but it would be a double standard to allow it in tier list discussion.

[Narga_Rocks]

If you do that with cards, who's to say we aren't allowed to do the same thing with BEXP levels, or levels you get at the start of a map? It's a nice idea, but it would be a double standard to allow it in tier list discussion.

It's an arbitrary line, really, so the best line is probably no resets. I could argue that the coins only take 2 or 3 resets during the course of the game and bexp levels would be like 30 times or more and each map has the opportunity for resets so that's over 30 as well, but I don't have any justification to stick the line at 5 times rather than 30 times. Also, you could then argue something like "what if I want to use one of my 5 resets for making sure Titania procs speed on a bexp level in tier 2?" or something, so yeah I guess I agree.

[Kinata]

There's a difference between coin abuse and level up abuse. EXP abuse might have to be done indefinitely to obtain wanted results, while it takes a single reset for coins. I think you should take into account what's realistic: coin abuse is easy and likely to be done, but few people want to constanltly EXP abuse throughout a PT.

Also, are coins always the same in each PT? Luminothe told me that during his 6 PT's, his first coin from 1-3 has always been a vine card. If this is so, no coin abuse will be necessary at all.

[Florete]

Also, are coins always the same in each PT? Luminothe told me that during his 6 PT's, his first coin from 1-3 has always been a vine card. If this is so, no coin abuse will be necessary at all.

I'm pretty sure that was disproven.

In other news...

Dropped Volug to top of High.

Micaiah > Elincia.

Still to look into:

Elincia possibly dropping a bit more.

Nealuchi vs. Leonardo

Sanaki possibly going up.

Anything else I missed?

Edited February 26, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Interceptor]

Anything else I missed?

We're still waiting for someone to touch Mia v. Titania with a 10-foot pole.

[Colonel M]

We're still waiting for someone to touch Mia v. Titania with a 10-foot poleaxe.

Hehe, fixed.

I'd rather wait on the subject until I can gather some info.

[tehnikhil]

Out of curiosity, is there any difference of having Volug at bottom of top vs top of high?

[Florete]

Out of curiosity, is there any difference of having Volug at bottom of top vs top of high?

Yes. It means he's seen as more comparable to High tier units (Sothe, Mia, Titania, etc.) than Top tier units (Reyson, Ike, Haar).

[Fayt Zelpher]

We're still waiting for someone to touch Mia v. Titania with a 10-foot pole.

Hmm, I've never played HM, but if you could give me a good expectation of how many levels to assume per map, BEXP totals, etc, I could run a level-by-level analysis of the two characters. I think it's quite clear that Mia is superior in EM/NM, but Titania's higher base level and stats may prove difficult for Mia to overcome in HM.

[nflchamp]

Hmm, I've never played HM, but if you could give me a good expectation of how many levels to assume per map, BEXP totals, etc, I could run a level-by-level analysis of the two characters. I think it's quite clear that Mia is superior in EM/NM, but Titania's higher base level and stats may prove difficult for Mia to overcome in HM.

Titania probably smokes Mia in EM/NM. <_<

[Interceptor]

You have it backwards, Titania creams the shit out of Mia in NM. Consider that Titania now has enough SPD to double basically anything she she wants, and so much mt that I believe she's borderline ORKO on Generals with generic weapons. The only place that Mia wins in NM is maybe Endgame, and that's only because she can borderline ORKO Generals herself, iirc, with the Vague Katti, and Titania's SPD starts to fail her. Also there is a shit ton of BEXP in Normal Mode, and Titania gets promoted very quickly, since her normal CEXP isn't getting nerfed to snot like it does in HM.

I can't give you accurate levels per map, it's actually a pretty complicated situation. You can see for yourself if you look at what Mia gets per hit/kill and compare it to what Titania does.

[Narga_Rocks]

Titania probably smokes Mia in EM/NM. <_<

You have it backwards, Titania creams the shit out of Mia in NM. Consider that Titania now has enough SPD to double basically anything she she wants, and so much mt that I believe she's borderline ORKO on Generals with generic weapons. The only place that Mia wins in NM is maybe Endgame, and that's only because she can borderline ORKO Generals herself, iirc, with the Vague Katti, and Titania's SPD starts to fail her. Also there is a shit ton of BEXP in Normal Mode, and Titania gets promoted very quickly, since her normal CEXP isn't getting nerfed to snot like it does in HM.

I can't give you accurate levels per map, it's actually a pretty complicated situation. You can see for yourself if you look at what Mia gets per hit/kill and compare it to what Titania does.

Yeah, pretty sure Mia would be upper mid for NM. You could argue High, but only if a few other units also make the jump, which arguably devalues the statement "Mia is high tier". Although I think Titania will be relying on cexp and bexp and promotion in order to win, since enemies aren't that much slower in NM than HM. Usually 1 spd, sometimes 2 I guess. However, it means she's less Doritos for the speedwing. Still, Titania's mt and the fact it shouldn't take all that long to promote give her the win. On EM, Titania promotes by 3-3 or something probably without a drop of bexp. Maybe I'm exaggerating, but Mia gets blown away on EM. (On the other hand, Mia no longer needs Ike on EM. Not sure what that's worth, though.)

Edited February 27, 2010 by Narga_Rocks