OMG it's a tier list

[NinjaMonkey]

(On the other hand, Mia no longer needs Ike on EM. Not sure what that's worth, though.)

I'm not entirely convinced of that, to be honest...

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm not entirely convinced of that, to be honest...

Well, I'm pretty sure the hit rates of enemies drop at least 10 compared to HM, and her levels go up a lot faster and she'll be able to promote sooner. I suppose EM Mia w/thunder or wind or dark support might face more hit from lance users than HM Mia with Ike support, but it's only a 15 avo difference between having Ike and having one of the others. Between her faster leveling and enemies lower hit, I never had a problem with Mia my first runthrough. Now, I'll admit I had a Mia that started with 15 def thanks to a transfer from PoR, but I doubt that made a significant difference. My first playthrough was EM and I never worried about the hit rates against Mia. I suppose I kept her mostly away from enemies when she was on worst bio, but aside from that her and Heather were dodging machines while supportless. I had Heather go steal the purge tome on chapter 3-10 from the bishop surrounded by enemies and she got swarmed on enemy phase and didn't get hit once. She was on best, of course, and so faced hit rates under 20 displayed, which is quite small with true hit. It's just a matter of picking your times to go crazy based off their bio and they'll be fine on EM.

[grandjackal]

Hmmm...Anyone think Aran's too high?

I mean like...Quite a bit too high. I don't quite have an argument, but I could see him below Transfer Soren. However, I wish to know what sort of thoughts the suggestion provokes.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Hmmm...Anyone think Aran's too high?

I mean like...Quite a bit too high. I don't quite have an argument, but I could see him below Transfer Soren. However, I wish to know what sort of thoughts the suggestion provokes.

I think it has something to do with the fact that he, Sothe, and Nolan are the only units that can take 3 hits without croaking. Everyone else is going down in 2-3 hits, so it's a durability issue more than anything.

[Deliriyum]

Hmmm...Anyone think Aran's too high?

I mean like...Quite a bit too high. I don't quite have an argument, but I could see him below Transfer Soren. However, I wish to know what sort of thoughts the suggestion provokes.

Boyd>Aran might be reasonable, however I'm not going to look into it. Aran's only real issue is speed and bases. He has substantial growths in str, skl, and def and his luck and speed have the potential to be screwed, but really aren't that bad.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Core

[grandjackal]

I think it has something to do with the fact that he, Sothe, and Nolan are the only units that can take 3 hits without croaking. Everyone else is going down in 2-3 hits, so it's a durability issue more than anything.

In part 1? It'd be a good point if one could actually consider durability important in part 1. It sounds ludicrous, but ask yourself. How clustered together are enemies in part 1?

[Anouleth]

Just because enemy density is low doesn't mean you can just ignore durability.

Aran also has good strength and skill once he gets going. Sure, he never doubles, but many people in the DB are having great difficulty doubling.

[Florete]

In part 1? It'd be a good point if one could actually consider durability important in part 1. It sounds ludicrous, but ask yourself. How clustered together are enemies in part 1?

If durability weren't important in part 1, Edward would be Upper Mid.

[Narga_Rocks]

If durability weren't important in part 1, Edward would be Upper Mid.

I still have doubts about his doubling, so without being convinced that it is reasonable to give him enough levels to accomplish that it wouldn't matter.

As for durability and enemy density, there are maps like 1-7 and 1-8 where quite frankly there is only on part of the map at which durability means anything more than "don't get OHKOd". 1-5 has some of that, too. 1-4 maybe you can pull it off if you go south and then east, but eventually you have to swing north where durability means something on the left side. This also prevents the option of going north from the start, but I suppose if it can be shown that either method gets it done in the same number of turns and gets everything except possibly the coin then there isn't really a problem not going north. An argument could be made for Ed's durability being enough to go south and east. 1-3 it's not possible on the west. On the east, there is one point on the map where you have to be careful. Once you open the door you could face two enemies. However, this isn't necessarily automatic and could possibly be avoided. It may be possible to ensure that even if Ed kills something he only faces 1 enemy. After the initial enemies it might be possible to go one at a time.

So in summary, I have to say that durability means a fair amount in one spot on 1-4, 1-6-2 (bridge), 1-7 (top west door), 1-8 (boss & friends). In 1-3, it matters for the entire left side. In 1-1 I think it matters along the way, but then again if you get rid of the enemies that swarm on first turn it's clear sailing to the boss just by sticking Nolan in the way of the enemies on the west. 1-P is where Ed thrives anyway. 1-2 I don't know for sure what to say here. I don't remember it very well. 1-6-1 there are places it matters, like drawing the boss in the west and fighting through the armors in the middle-left and the armors that spawn in the top right. 1-E I don't remember very well either.

In short, durability matters in part 1, but sometimes in only one location on the map. It might be possible that more durability would allow a significant increase in speed, though.

[grandjackal]

Just because enemy density is low doesn't mean you can just ignore durability.

If I'm not in danger of multiple enemies attacking me any time soon, durability might as well equal whatever healing items you had.

Aran also has good strength and skill once he gets going. Sure, he never doubles, but many people in the DB are having great difficulty doubling.

Once he gets going indeed. When is this, about when the LEA show up?

If durability weren't important in part 1, Edward would be Upper Mid.

Yet, this is an assessment on how often in part 1 durability can actually be put to good use. You can't really claim to be an enemy magnet there's only 1 enemy to drag in, after all.

[nflchamp]

Once he gets going indeed. When is this, about when the LEA show up?

It's about 3-12 actually.

[Narga_Rocks]

It's about 3-12 actually.

Aran or Ed? I should think if Aran manages 17 defence before the end of part 1 (or better, of course) then he should be useful enough. Especially with a support. He could even support Ed or Leo if you want, though it's kinda hard to raise Aran and one of those two. At least, if you are also raising Jill and/or Nolan. Especially "And".

Edited February 27, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[nflchamp]

Aran or Ed? I should think if Aran manages 17 defence before the end of part 1 (or better, of course) then he should be useful enough. Especially with a support. He could even support Ed or Leo if you want, though it's kinda hard to raise Aran and one of those two. At least, if you are also raising Jill and/or Nolan. Especially "And".

Alright, I admit, he's "going" in 1-E. Then he slips back to semi-retarded in 3-6 by getting doubled by cats. Though I guess semi-retarded is better than most of the DB.

[dondon151]

This was using quite the inflated levels for Volug, and ignores the fact that even at this point, Sothe's leveling faster (Sothe's basically 20/20/2, Volug's 20/20/10), so Sothe's more than able to quickly match up. Don't even give me guff on weapon rank, arms scrolls are not only littered throughout the game, but money is the last problem on earth by endgame.

So now considering that Volug part 4 is basically a less flimsy Sothe who's problems are harder to fix, has no ranged option, isn't forced, doesn't have a mastery (as minor a point as Bane can be) and doesn't have magic thief powers in the desert, and if we're all in agreement that Sothe's part 1 is of more emphasis than Volug's, that leaves part 3.

Sothe needs 26 AS to comfortably double most paladins in 1-P, although some have 23 AS. Getting him to 20/10 and then BEXP'ing him twice is pretty borderline on 26 AS in the first place. They also have something like 44 HP/20 def, so Sothe @ Silver Dagger (A Micaiah) is 3HKOing, but some of them require 4HKOs. Additionally, Sothe can't double any of the warriors or SMs that are on the map. Volug has enough AS to double most of the map at base level, requires a spd proc for the warriors, and needs to be about level 23 to double the SMs. If he has SS strike, he has 45 atk/32 AS, which ORKOs the entire map (except for the generals). If he has S strike instead, he could have taken an Energy Drop for 44 atk, which still ORKOs the same units. As for durability, with A Jill he has 107 avo against ~142 hit, so less than 25 true on him, and a sample 36 atk Silver Lance paladin just misses the 4RKO on 56.6 HP/20.4 (+2) def. Most have less atk than that, though. Sothe, assuming 26 AS/23 luk and A Micaiah, has 90 avo, translating to just over 50 true, and 38 HP/16 def is 3RKO'd by 33 atk Steel Lance paladins and 2RKO'd by 36 atk Silver Lance paladins.

I honestly don't see how any part of your poorly supported statement regarding Volug's part 4 is true. Except for the Bane part, but Sothe doesn't have that in 4-P, and even then he can't ORKO with Bane if it doesn't proc on the first attack. He needs 30 AS now to double warriors in the desert, which he won't get if he has 26 before promoting to Whisper (he gets +2 AS on promo), he still doesn't ORKO while Volug does (though Volug most definitely needs SS strike, and maybe another point in str), and he has 3 move while Volug is not hindered at all.

I'll admit the part 3 summary is vague, and my arguments may be a bit too general, but I feel these two perform a bit too closely to be considered a tier apart. Get them smoking hotties closer.

Of course they're vague. They neglect the fact that Micaiah and Laura use staves, as well as the presence of staff using partner units. They neglect the fact that if Sothe equips his Beast Killer for enemy phase, he's guaranteed dead meat. They neglect the fact that Volug has much better concrete and general durability than Sothe does. And I suppose they also neglect the possibility of untransformed Resolve for EXP milking, although it's pretty ineffective without Beastfoe (since Volug gets more EXP transformed for killing than untransformed for not killing), and other people want Beastfoe more.

I strongly contest Volug moving down to high tier. He wins move when it matters, namely the offensive maps in part 1 and part 4. He wins durability when it matters, i.e. part 3 (where his 1 range lock isn't a big deal because of the abundance of laguz enemies). He wins offense all the time except for when Sothe wants to get himself killed.

[Florete]

Well, what do you know? I didn't really like the idea of Volug moving down myself but didn't really have anything to bring up. Anyone else?

[dondon151]

Oh, and I don't see why Volug isn't optimal deployment for 4-3 either. Quite a few of your fliers are just worse than him. He might not hop over cliffs, but he still gets no movement penalties.

[-Cynthia-]

I would say Sothe> Volug in 4-3 anyway due to item finding. Techinically he isn't the only unit that can find items, but any other unit has a pretty low % chance. Except for Heather I guess, but a thief helps clear 4-4 as well so I don't see her on Micaiah's route.

Volug might as well be deployed on 4-3 (we have a lot of unit slots), but I don't see him as anything more than a mediocre combatant. Plus, the enemy density here is really tough on gauge.

Volug's mediocrity means that he can't really win 4-E either, since Sothe is force deployed. So basically it comes down to Sothe's Part 1 leads over Volug's Part 3. I'm inlined to go with Sothe here. I think Sothe's theif utility is often overlooked in Part 1, we focus on the fact that he's crushing all your units in combat for a while and don't give him the credit for the Seraph Robe/Energy Drop/Beastfoe/Master Seals etc. that we would usually credit him with.

Edited February 28, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

I would say Sothe> Volug in 4-3 anyway due to item finding. Techinically he isn't the only unit that can find items, but any other unit has a pretty low % chance. Except for Heather I guess, but a thief helps clear 4-4 as well so I don't see her on Micaiah's route.

Well, it's not as much anymore. Neutral Bio Naesala has a 40% chance of finding items himself. If you can get Stefan fast enough, he has 37%. If you get lucky on Biorythm, you may never need Sothe. It's still an advantage for him, but I don't think that alone makes him > Volug for the map.

[-Cynthia-]

Stefan has low Mov in the desert and starts far away from the items we actually want to get, having him as the itemfinder isn't very timely.

I don't think Naesala's <50% chance to find items diminishes from Sothe in any fashion. We should be using Naesala as a combatant here, having him find items is really a waste of his abilities.

[Narga_Rocks]

Stefan has low Mov in the desert and starts far away from the items we actually want to get, having him as the itemfinder isn't very timely.

I don't think Naesala's <50% chance to find items diminishes from Sothe in any fashion. We should be using Naesala as a combatant here, having him find items is really a waste of his abilities.

There is way too many enemies on the map for us to kill for me to think of having Naesala going after them. I don't know what everyone else does for the bottom left, but I usually have Naesala there by the end. I suppose there is a coin down there that I usually have him get (I think), but that hardly hurts Sothe. Since Tanith and Sigrun are typically untrained and there is no real point sending Tanith anywhere but Silver (especially since forced deployment in 3-11 and remaining adjacent for however long you spend in 3-12 gives them an automatic C in 3-E) you might as well have Sigrun and Tanith ferrying Sothe around 4-3 picking stuff up. It's also best if you can restrict the activity to 1 unit so that we can more easily send useful stuff to the convoy. I still think that Volug is better than Sothe overall, but I have no idea if he deserves the tier jump on Sothe or if he deserves to be in the same tier as Haar and Ike. Anyone want to dig up the posts that first got Volug into Top and counter anything if you want him to drop?

[Florete]

Anyone want to dig up the posts that first got Volug into Top and counter anything if you want him to drop?

From what I recall, I don't think there really was anything. I think GJ just suggested it and said he would discuss it if anyone disagreed but no one did. After all, it's easy to compare Volug to Sothe but not so simple to any of the Top guys.

[tehnikhil]

Out of curiosity, for guys on different teams like the Neal vs Leo that I am arguing, how much of a burden do I have to prove in order to get the move? I am guessing that it is most likely because of other more important cases that most aren't really talking about the Neal>Leo argument, but if I win that Neal>Leo by a tiny increment, would that warrent the move? Or would it have to be a more substantial win so that Neal couldn't be argued back down?

Edited March 1, 2010 by tehnikhil

[nflchamp]

Out of curiosity, for guys on different teams like the Neal vs Leo that I am arguing, how much of a burden do I have to prove in order to get the move? I am guessing that it is most likely because of other more important cases that most aren't really talking about the Neal>Leo argument, but if I win that Neal>Leo by a tiny increment, would that warrent the move? Or would it have to be a more substantial win so that Neal couldn't be argued back down?

You solely have to convince everyone (or enough people) that Neal>Leo for the move to happen. If Leo is re-argued above Neal, then Leo is re-argued above Neal.

The burden of proof comes in convincing people that you're right.

[Interceptor]

I am not really convinced that Neal is doing as much as Leo in terms of contribution to game completion. For the most part, Leo only kicks out people worse than he is for deployment slots, he is generally a decent weakener, and he has some useful utility in Part 3 owing to Sniper shenanigans. The Part 3 stuff may put him over the edge.

Neal's a good fighter in 2-P, but that one takes exactly the time amount of time even if he didn't exist, and Haar/Marcia/Elincia can actually even handle it without him to a large extent. I'll give him 2-2, he's quite good there despite his terrible vision radius and the need to use limited laguz items. But in 2-E we have the gauge problem again, and now his help relative to other people is dubious: heavy lifting here is done by Elincihax, Haar, Leanne, etc. I can't even say that he contributes greatly to the boss kill unless you go kamikaze with him, since he can't hurt Ludveck. But, he's alright I guess, he can weaken stuff for other people and maybe clear a choke or take out an important target with help.

Anyway, in Part 4 he's terrible, so that's the end of that adventure. I am not sure what Leonardo is looking like in Part 4, I've used him seriously but never efficiently (takes a lot of work).

EDIT: and you just have to convince Red Fox.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Interceptor

[tehnikhil]

I am not really convinced that Neal is doing as much as Leo in terms of contribution to game completion. For the most part, Leo only kicks out people worse than he is for deployment slots, he is generally a decent weakener, and he has some useful utility in Part 3 owing to Sniper shenanigans. The Part 3 stuff may put him over the edge.

In specific the utility that you are talking about is using a cbow with beastfoe on 3-6/3-13? The thing is though, depending on how high leveled it is agreed that Leo should be, isn't his damage really just a drop in the bucket? I mean, who is he really helping kill? I guess he gets some shots in and minor damage in here and there, but does it put some borderline killers over the edge to be able to kill the laguz? I hardly remember 3-12, but isn't it kinda general heavy? If so, how much damage can he possibly be doin there?

Neal's a good fighter in 2-P, but that one takes exactly the time amount of time even if he didn't exist, and Haar/Marcia/Elincia can actually even handle it without him to a large extent. I'll give him 2-2, he's quite good there despite his terrible vision radius and the need to use limited laguz items. But in 2-E we have the gauge problem again, and now his help relative to other people is dubious: heavy lifting here is done by Elincihax, Haar, Leanne, etc. I can't even say that he contributes greatly to the boss kill unless you go kamikaze with him, since he can't hurt Ludveck. But, he's alright I guess, he can weaken stuff for other people and maybe clear a choke or take out an important target with help.

My thought is just that Neal can be a bit helpful for 2-P. Not really something to completely push him over the edge or anythign, but just a nice thing. Possibly enough to counteract Leo's 1-P or 1-1, possibly both depending on how fast you are to go on 1-P? Although, I don't really understand how exactly Marcia/Elincia can handle the chapter though? I know Haar can godsolo the chapter once he arrives, but until then, how exactly is Elincia and Marcia managing?

2-E is one of those "take every unit you can" chapters. Here you have more guys who you can have him help train, and the best fighters like Haar/Elincia probably have better things to do than stay back and help people train (Haar is probably plugging a hole, and does Elincia even go a round without killing the foes? I don't remember if she can go without killing). You have Neph who is high tier material, and we all know that her biggest issue is her slow start. Can't Neal help her get out of that hole? I don't remember hit rates, but does Neal have enough hp to survive a cbow hit? I may be just thinking I saw this somewhere when it was never posted, but can't he also dodge them pretty well? If so, can't that also be a reason to say he is helpful since he can kill or help kill those cbow faggots that always kill Elincia off?

Anyway, in Part 4 he's terrible, so that's the end of that adventure. I am not sure what Leonardo is looking like in Part 4, I've used him seriously but never efficiently (takes a lot of work).

After arguing with smash, I was thinking; can't he ferry Sothe around for the treasure on 4-3? It could be kinda nice to be able to get the treasure quicker, but it probably should be given kinda minimal weight. It is just another thing that he could possibly help in if he manages to be strong enough to be in the top 17 (IIRC) units for participating in that chapter?

EDIT: and you just have to convince Red Fox.

True that, but I am guessing that if she is convinced, chances are the majority of everyone else is too.

Edited March 1, 2010 by tehnikhil