OMG it's a tier list

[Oceanbourne]

My thought is just that Neal can be a bit helpful for 2-P. Not really something to completely push him over the edge or anythign, but just a nice thing. Possibly enough to counteract Leo's 1-P or 1-1, possibly both depending on how fast you are to go on 1-P? Although, I don't really understand how exactly Marcia/Elincia can handle the chapter though? I know Haar can godsolo the chapter once he arrives, but until then, how exactly is Elincia and Marcia managing?

Leanne sits in the northwest corner, Elincia and Marcia border her on her right and botttom. Marcia's getting more out of attacking the dracos because she's a beorc and she gets hit so Elincia can heal with that Mend; Marcia might even get a level or at least close to it. If you put Nealuchi there to complete that little square, he just chips further on PP but doesn't contribute much on EP because the dracos are all attacking Marcia, so his strike level doesn't increase a lot.

He might be able to help Haar beat the boss because Haar isn't doubling Zeffren, I think.

[Narga_Rocks]

In specific the utility that you are talking about is using a cbow with beastfoe on 3-6/3-13? The thing is though, depending on how high leveled it is agreed that Leo should be, isn't his damage really just a drop in the bucket? I mean, who is he really helping kill? I guess he gets some shots in and minor damage in here and there, but does it put some borderline killers over the edge to be able to kill the laguz? I hardly remember 3-12, but isn't it kinda general heavy? If so, how much damage can he possibly be doin there?

Leo is as close to 20/1 as you want him to be at this point. If he is at least 18/1, he's pretty destructive with wrath on tigers and ORKOs them ~90% of the time. If he is low enough that he doesn't double the 16AS tigers with Lugh then he isn't as great, but wrath could still give him over 65% of critting which would at least cause a fair amount of damage to them. Depending on level that same 65% chance also applies to OHKOing cats since his level doesn't have to be too high to 3HKO them.

My thought is just that Neal can be a bit helpful for 2-P. Not really something to completely push him over the edge or anythign, but just a nice thing. Possibly enough to counteract Leo's 1-P or 1-1, possibly both depending on how fast you are to go on 1-P? Although, I don't really understand how exactly Marcia/Elincia can handle the chapter though? I know Haar can godsolo the chapter once he arrives, but until then, how exactly is Elincia and Marcia managing?

They can basically hang around in clouds and survive indefinitely. You could even have Elincia give Marcia her slim sword and then Elincia has the Mend equipped and Marcia can go pick up Leanne and hide if you want. Elincia should be able to survive almost indefinitely if she is on a cloud.

2-E is one of those "take every unit you can" chapters. Here you have more guys who you can have him help train, and the best fighters like Haar/Elincia probably have better things to do than stay back and help people train (Haar is probably plugging a hole, and does Elincia even go a round without killing the foes? I don't remember if she can go without killing). You have Neph who is high tier material, and we all know that her biggest issue is her slow start. Can't Neal help her get out of that hole? I don't remember hit rates, but does Neal have enough hp to survive a cbow hit? I may be just thinking I saw this somewhere when it was never posted, but can't he also dodge them pretty well? If so, can't that also be a reason to say he is helpful since he can kill or help kill those cbow faggots that always kill Elincia off?

Neph is probably most easily used tossing javelins down the ledge on the left, and it's hard to have Neal help there. As for Elincia, she 2HKOs every single crossbow/bowgun user on the map, so as long as you play smart on player phase and make use of Leanne, Elincia is about as scared of them as she would be of a bandit from 1-P.

After arguing with smash, I was thinking; can't he ferry Sothe around for the treasure on 4-3? It could be kinda nice to be able to get the treasure quicker, but it probably should be given kinda minimal weight. It is just another thing that he could possibly help in if he manages to be strong enough to be in the top 17 (IIRC) units for participating in that chapter?

It would be cool except Neal can't pick up Sothe unless Neal is transformed (I think). I'm pretty sure that the 15 wt listed on the site is his transformed wt. So it's not all that easy for Neal to be a ferrier.

And Haar does double the boss. He doesn't 2HKO, though, so Marcia or Nealuchi can help out there. On HM Elincia tinks, though, so she can't help unless Stun actually works while tinking, which I doubt.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[tehnikhil]

Leo is as close to 20/1 as you want him to be at this point. If he is at least 18/1, he's pretty destructive with wrath on tigers and ORKOs them ~90% of the time. If he is low enough that he doesn't double the 16AS tigers with Lugh then he isn't as great, but wrath could still give him over 65% of critting which would at least cause a fair amount of damage to them. Depending on level that same 65% chance also applies to OHKOing cats since his level doesn't have to be too high to 3HKO them.

They can basically hang around in clouds and survive indefinitely. You could even have Elincia give Marcia her slim sword and then Elincia has the Mend equipped and Marcia can go pick up Leanne and hide if you want. Elincia should be able to survive almost indefinitely if she is on a cloud.

Neph is probably most easily used tossing javelins down the ledge on the left, and it's hard to have Neal help there. As for Elincia, she 2HKOs every single crossbow/bowgun user on the map, so as long as you play smart on player phase and make use of Leanne, Elincia is about as scared of them as she would be of a bandit from 1-P.

It would be cool except Neal can't pick up Sothe unless Neal is transformed (I think). I'm pretty sure that the 15 wt listed on the site is his transformed wt. So it's not all that easy for Neal to be a ferrier.

And Haar does double the boss. He doesn't 2HKO, though, so Marcia or Nealuchi can help out there. On HM Elincia tinks, though, so she can't help unless Stun actually works while tinking, which I doubt.

I still have some hw to do, so I am not going to answer all of the arguments line by line yet (although I will try to answer a few), but does this ignore an efficency standpoint when raising Leo? Or is there a better way of training him that I don't know about where you can get him to that level without slowing your team down? I was in the assumption that Leo was at like 10-12/1 if even promoted at all. That was where my arguments about him stemmed from.

As for the javelin thing, can't you have someone like Calill help clear out an enemy, leaving a gap in the wall, and then have neal fly down, beat up the enemy, fly up and have Neph javelin the enemy to death?

And for Sothe, once Neal transforms, can't he still be mediocre with picking up him and dragging him around while transformed as long as his gauge isn't drained by fights?

[Oceanbourne]

And for Sothe, once Neal transforms, can't he still be mediocre with picking up him and dragging him around while transformed as long as his gauge isn't drained by fights?

I am confused as to why you would go to the trouble of transforming Neal to ferry Sothe when you could use Sigrun or any other fliers you happen to bring to 4-3. What is Sigrun doing there anyways?

[Narga_Rocks]

I still have some hw to do, so I am not going to answer all of the arguments line by line yet (although I will try to answer a few), but does this ignore an efficency standpoint when raising Leo? Or is there a better way of training him that I don't know about where you can get him to that level without slowing your team down? I was in the assumption that Leo was at like 10-12/1 if even promoted at all. That was where my arguments about him stemmed from.

There is a cost to everything. I'm withholding judgment on how high the cost is of getting Leo to, say, 15/1 or higher. Since he is fairly accurate, doesn't face counters, and should certainly be given a good forge in part 1 if you are trying to use him, I don't think it is all that unreasonable to get him to at least level 13, but since I've never used him seriously in HM I'm uncertain just how high he can get.

As for the javelin thing, can't you have someone like Calill help clear out an enemy, leaving a gap in the wall, and then have neal fly down, beat up the enemy, fly up and have Neph javelin the enemy to death?

That depends both on how fast you are playing this chapter and what you want out of it. It's possible Neal + Neph could KO something. Javelin has 7 mt, so at base she has 22 mt, or 24 down a ledge. Maybe gets to 16 str by now, so 25. Neal has 27. That might kill something, but you'd probably need to give Neph enough bexp that she starts doubling. 23 AS should suffice, given that's what the warriors have and you aren't likely to be able to get her high enough for the swordmasters. Also, you'd have to have a group of your units in the west to do the fighting. Granted, I always clear out the left side and then use fliers to KO the boss and get the draco and grass, but some people seem to think that sending a massive attack against the Armor/General swarm is a superior idea. Also, you could just decide to win in 3 or 4 turns if you really want, so it is possible that Neal doesn't get to help.

Personally, I like having him poke the Generals in the east to death and get the Silver Greatlance. I make attempts at the arms scroll with him, too, but last game even with like 7 tries between him and the CRK I still didn't get it.

And for Sothe, once Neal transforms, can't he still be mediocre with picking up him and dragging him around while transformed as long as his gauge isn't drained by fights?

I am confused as to why you would go to the trouble of transforming Neal to ferry Sothe when you could use Sigrun or any other fliers you happen to bring to 4-3. What is Sigrun doing there anyways?

I think Sigrun was sent to 4-3 by IS with the sole purpose of ferrying Sothe around.

Also, Neal, even transformed, only has 8 move. And -4 per turn should last him 8 turns, so if you keep him out of combat he might be able to stay transformed the whole map (that is, after he first transforms)

[tehnikhil]

I am confused as to why you would go to the trouble of transforming Neal to ferry Sothe when you could use Sigrun or any other fliers you happen to bring to 4-3. What is Sigrun doing there anyways?

Very true. I am just saying it is an option if you want siggy to do something else like help a borderline 2RKO (like almost ORKO but still leaving the enemy at single digits) unit kill an enemy. I am just throwing it out there, but you are right that it probably shouldn't be given much weight.

[dondon151]

Volug might as well be deployed on 4-3 (we have a lot of unit slots), but I don't see him as anything more than a mediocre combatant. Plus, the enemy density here is really tough on gauge.

ORKOing 80% of the map is mediocre combat? Level 25 yields 34 AS, doubling every enemy on the map except for 1 SM, and with SS strike he'll have 45 or 47 atk. The only enemies that Volug doesn't come near ORKO on are DKs and generals. He'll fall short on the higher level warriors and halbs, but an Energy Drop or a +atk support will solve those problems.

[Original Alear]

It would be cool except Neal can't pick up Sothe unless Neal is transformed (I think). I'm pretty sure that the 15 wt listed on the site is his transformed wt. So it's not all that easy for Neal to be a ferrier.

Really? Raven base con/wt is 10/10 untransformed, and goes up by 9/8 when transformed. Does that mean Nealuchi has less than base con/wt? Similarly, I doubt that Vika has only 6 wt transformed...

It wouldn't make any sense in any case. All the other stats are untransformed bases, why would they change things up on con and weight?

ORKOing 80% of the map is mediocre combat? Level 25 yields 34 AS, doubling every enemy on the map except for 1 SM, and with SS strike he'll have 45 or 47 atk. The only enemies that Volug doesn't come near ORKO on are DKs and generals. He'll fall short on the higher level warriors and halbs, but an Energy Drop or a +atk support will solve those problems.

Do you really see Volug w/ SS strike there? I almost always see S on 1-F and have never gotten SS during the three part 3 chapters.

I normally get SS strike for him on 4-F-1 if I bring him for fun.

Edited March 1, 2010 by SeverIan

[dondon151]

I normally get SS strike for him on 4-F-1 if I bring him for fun.

So you don't use him enough.

[Narga_Rocks]

Really? Raven base con/wt is 10/10 untransformed, and goes up by 9/8 when transformed. Does that mean Nealuchi has less than base con/wt? Similarly, I doubt that Vika has only 6 wt transformed...

Not every unit matches class bases. Vika shows her untransformed wt. Add 8 to the 15 listed for Neal and he's at 23. I suppose it's possible that he weighs more than Ulki. I just found it unlikely. He could, I suppose.

Do you really see Volug w/ SS strike there? I almost always see S on 1-F and have never gotten SS during the three part 3 chapters.

I normally get SS strike for him on 4-F-1 if I bring him for fun.

So you don't use him enough.

Precisely. He generally hits SS strike for me midway through 3-13.

[dondon151]

Not every unit matches class bases. Vika shows her untransformed wt. Add 8 to the 15 listed for Neal and he's at 23. I suppose it's possible that he weighs more than Ulki. I just found it unlikely. He could, I suppose.

I think we made a big deal some time ago about how Nealuchi is a super buff old raven.

[Narga_Rocks]

I think we made a big deal some time ago about how Nealuchi is a super buff old raven.

Then it is certainly possible. Just strange. In that case, 6 move untransformed is a problem for Sothe, and 8 move transformed is still inferior to Sigrun.

[tehnikhil]

True, and that is why I probably wouldn't really say that is a major advantage if even one at all. Although it is a very different type of situation, doesn't Mickey also beat Leo in terms of attack in 1-1 (I know they have the same mag/str, but I forget the wep mt vs enemy def/res for who damages more, although I am pretty sure Mickey). Because of that, would Leo's help in that chapter be given a bit less weight since for a lot of it, there is 1 chokepoint, and Mickey probably would fill it? Of course, not as minimal as Neal since once they pass that chokepoint, Leo can do a few things, but until then, wouldn't he not do much?

[dondon151]

Well, Leo joins later in 1-P than the other two.

[tehnikhil]

That too, so I dunno how much credit can be given to him for that chapter.

[Anouleth]

True, and that is why I probably wouldn't really say that is a major advantage if even one at all. Although it is a very different type of situation, doesn't Mickey also beat Leo in terms of attack in 1-1 (I know they have the same mag/str, but I forget the wep mt vs enemy def/res for who damages more, although I am pretty sure Mickey). Because of that, would Leo's help in that chapter be given a bit less weight since for a lot of it, there is 1 chokepoint, and Mickey probably would fill it? Of course, not as minimal as Neal since once they pass that chokepoint, Leo can do a few things, but until then, wouldn't he not do much?

Micaiah is dealing more damage, especially if she levelled up in 1-P.

[grandjackal]

Sothe needs 26 AS to comfortably double most paladins in 1-P, although some have 23 AS. Getting him to 20/10 and then BEXP'ing him twice is pretty borderline on 26 AS in the first place. They also have something like 44 HP/20 def, so Sothe @ Silver Dagger (A Micaiah) is 3HKOing, but some of them require 4HKOs. Additionally, Sothe can't double any of the warriors or SMs that are on the map. Volug has enough AS to double most of the map at base level, requires a spd proc for the warriors, and needs to be about level 23 to double the SMs. If he has SS strike, he has 45 atk/32 AS, which ORKOs the entire map (except for the generals). If he has S strike instead, he could have taken an Energy Drop for 44 atk, which still ORKOs the same units. As for durability, with A Jill he has 107 avo against ~142 hit, so less than 25 true on him, and a sample 36 atk Silver Lance paladin just misses the 4RKO on 56.6 HP/20.4 (+2) def. Most have less atk than that, though. Sothe, assuming 26 AS/23 luk and A Micaiah, has 90 avo, translating to just over 50 true, and 38 HP/16 def is 3RKO'd by 33 atk Steel Lance paladins and 2RKO'd by 36 atk Silver Lance paladins.

Durably, I don't think I ever questioned Volug's superiority there for both part 3 and 4 outside of having no ranged option. Offensively it may be true that Volug can double more often than not, but there are a couple things being ignored here. 1. Sothe's still unpromoted, and thus leveling at quite a more rapid pace. This soon will not be a problem. 2. While paladins aren't the only unit there, they are still the most prevailent. 3. Volug's still got transformation issues. True that good transforming items are about as rare as candy in part 4, but it still deprives him of player phases. 4. Sothe's still got the ranged option. A forged knife is always as strong as their silver counterpart, so he'd be doing as well with it. With it, he can still pull off being a more flexible unit.

I honestly don't see how any part of your poorly supported statement regarding Volug's part 4 is true. Except for the Bane part, but Sothe doesn't have that in 4-P, and even then he can't ORKO with Bane if it doesn't proc on the first attack. He needs 30 AS now to double warriors in the desert, which he won't get if he has 26 before promoting to Whisper (he gets +2 AS on promo), he still doesn't ORKO while Volug does (though Volug most definitely needs SS strike, and maybe another point in str), and he has 3 move while Volug is not hindered at all.

Again, I've noted that Bane is a very small thing in his favor.

As for the 30 AS, I suppose that depends on how many levels he could muster out of 4-P.

3 move indeed, but you still have to use him to get the treasure lying about, and that he's forced.

Of course they're vague. They neglect the fact that Micaiah and Laura use staves, as well as the presence of staff using partner units. They neglect the fact that if Sothe equips his Beast Killer for enemy phase, he's guaranteed dead meat. They neglect the fact that Volug has much better concrete and general durability than Sothe does. And I suppose they also neglect the possibility of untransformed Resolve for EXP milking, although it's pretty ineffective without Beastfoe (since Volug gets more EXP transformed for killing than untransformed for not killing), and other people want Beastfoe more.

I acknowledged that Volug was more durable.

I also wouldn't quickly overrate the partner AI healing you when they could end up healing some other schmuck partner unit. Besides, if we're arguing the fact that we have so many staffers, wouldn't we be overrating durability problems here? It also ignores how our two staff users could be Torching. Simply put, it's either the numerous staff users reduce durability problems, or Volug's lack of range and need to be sucking down vulneries where he might also need grass.

I would contest that anybody would want Resolve for this map, and could probably put it to just as good of use, if not more than "just EXP milking".

I strongly contest Volug moving down to high tier. He wins move when it matters, namely the offensive maps in part 1

Considering Zihark could ORKO most of part 1 enemies while packing iron, I wouldn't exactly call this an accomplishment, especially since Sothe could do the same at ranged thanks to knife forges.

and part 4.

Conceeded until Endgame.

He wins durability when it matters, i.e. part 3 (where his 1 range lock isn't a big deal because of the abundance of laguz enemies).

Yes, while he's transformed.

That statement also doesn't make sense, the locked to 1 range not mattering. It means Volug always has to take a counter, and it would also mean that Sothe is always able to avoid a counter thanks to throwing knives.

He wins offense all the time except for when Sothe wants to get himself killed.

You mean in part 4 where he's no longer as special as he used to be compared to the team, or when he's having to deal with his transformation issues?

I wouldn't argue Sothe is better than Volug, but I would still feel they compare. In hte least, if you are going to return Volug to top, perhaps then under Transfer Titania and Mia.

[Anouleth]

Considering Zihark could ORKO most of part 1 enemies while packing iron, I wouldn't exactly call this an accomplishment, especially since Sothe could do the same at ranged thanks to knife forges.

He said 'Volug wins move when it matters, the offensive maps in Part 1'. His point was that Volug had 9 move.

No matter how good Zihark's offense is (iirc he actually has difficulty 1-rounding with Iron, he needs Adept or crit to kill), he can't rush ahead to rescue Fiona in 1-6-2, or go ahead and engage the enemy more quickly in 1-7, or help rescue villagers and kill brigands in 1-8, or take pass and hunt down the thieves in 1-E. He can't rush ahead to protect Jill in 1-5 either... but that's because he's unplayable as much as it's because his movement is worse.

[grandjackal]

Oh, sorry, misread. Thought it said he has offense for part 3. Read too fast.

[Narga_Rocks]

I also wouldn't quickly overrate the partner AI healing you when they could end up healing some other schmuck partner unit. Besides, if we're arguing the fact that we have so many staffers, wouldn't we be overrating durability problems here? It also ignores how our two staff users could be Torching. Simply put, it's either the numerous staff users reduce durability problems, or Volug's lack of range and need to be sucking down vulneries where he might also need grass.

You can easily guarantee that the partner AI will heal 1 of your units every other turn in 3-6. Just alternate between Roam and target the bottom left available tile on the map. The partners never get attacked so he has no reason to heal 5 damage from his buddy instead of 20+ damage from you like the idiots love doing. He can't heal any of his own units since there is nothing to heal. I don't think he's stupid enough to heal 5 damage from Volug instead of 30 damage from Nolan. The trouble with doing this is that it prevents you from using the Leo w/Wrath strategy, or if you stuck Resolve on Micaiah (if she had enough spd to double tigers that way) they might heal her. But assuming you aren't doing anything that relies on keeping HP low, you are fine.

Considering Zihark could ORKO most of part 1 enemies while packing iron, I wouldn't exactly call this an accomplishment, especially since Sothe could do the same at ranged thanks to knife forges.

Considering Zihark fails to ORKO many things with a max mt forged Iron, yeah...

One thing in Sothe's favour. Volug will most likely have 19 AS until part 3. Sothe starts with 20 AS and will probably have 21 AS or more by 1-E. Probably not more, though. Anyway, there are a fair number of 16 AS and 17 AS enemies in 1-8 and 1-E (soldiers and fighters, mostly). Sothe doubles, Volug doesn't. Sothe can have 29 mt with forged iron knife if he has 20 str by now (which isn't too hard) and was permitted to keep his A Micaiah. That's not really ORKOing much in endgame, but at least it is bringing things down to near death for the other characters. Many units probably won't OHKO what Volug leaves, at least until Volug hits S strike. Even with an energy drop on Volug.

[Interceptor]

So, the issue I have with Volug's offensive loss to Sothe in 1-E is that it's really hard to care about it too much in terms of efficient completion. Part 1 Endgame is, as we all know, crowded full of ridiculous prepromote asskickers, such that the combat differences of the lower class get nearly wiped out if you are at all trying to minimize turns here.

When your role is bayoneting the wounded and/or holding the BK's jacket, it's hard to stand out.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Interceptor

[Original Alear]

Damn, I don't know how I could use Volug more. I feel like he is attacking almost every player phase except in 1-6-2 where I send him to the top right (and he doesn't get action for some of those turns). When do you guys normally see him hit S? I can't see him doing it earlier than 1-8.

[Interceptor]

It takes a while, getting 70 attacks is no joke. You basically have to give up training one of the tier 1's if you want to get Volug to S-strike in a reasonably fast timeframe, because it means intentionally exposing him to attacks on Enemy Phase, and going for double-attacks whenever possible (which often result in kills). Using him as a "in case of emergency, maul face" unit is going to have him at A Strike for a long time.

[Original Alear]

It takes a while, getting 70 attacks is no joke. You basically have to give up training one of the tier 1's if you want to get Volug to S-strike in a reasonably fast timeframe, because it means intentionally exposing him to attacks on Enemy Phase, and going for double-attacks whenever possible (which often result in kills). Using him as a "in case of emergency, maul face" unit is going to have him at A Strike for a long time.

I feel like I use him a lot, yet it obviously isn't enough!

[Narga_Rocks]

It takes a while, getting 70 attacks is no joke. You basically have to give up training one of the tier 1's if you want to get Volug to S-strike in a reasonably fast timeframe, because it means intentionally exposing him to attacks on Enemy Phase, and going for double-attacks whenever possible (which often result in kills). Using him as a "in case of emergency, maul face" unit is going to have him at A Strike for a long time.

In EM, I'm pretty sure wexp is doubled. I didn't get Volug to S strike until part 3. Yeah. In NM and HM he had S strike before part 1 ended. In NM he got SS in 4-3 I think, but in HM he got there in 3-E. It's not like I neglected Ilyana/Nolan/Jill in part 1, though. His 25 mt simply doesn't kill as much as it does in the easier modes. If I gave him the drop I suppose then he'd be looking at killing more in part 1, but I don't.