OMG it's a tier list

[Interceptor]

I wouldn't say that Volug has some commanding advantage over all comers on the Energy Drop, but his benefits are considerable because of how long he's good with it.

I can see where Eddie would get a benefit, but getting weighed down by Steel doesn't matter anymore by the start of 1-4, and he's going to cap STR anyway, so for benefits you're left with +2 mt over his average until somewhere in tier 2.

Definitely I wouldn't deny Eddie a forge.

[grandjackal]

Ether, have patience, I'm still working on it. I know where I'm coming from, but I still have a long way before I'm ready to present the full argument.

I wouldn't say that Volug has some commanding advantage over all comers on the Energy Drop, but his benefits are considerable because of how long he's good with it.

I would also make the claim that even though mages eat at him, they're still a minor annoyance at best. But I can see how he puts it to good use.

Just wish Eddie didn't have to contend with him of all people.

I can see where Eddie would get a benefit, but getting weighed down by Steel doesn't matter anymore by the start of 1-4, and he's going to cap STR anyway, so for benefits you're left with +2 mt over his average until somewhere in tier 2.

Of which you'd be surprised how far that would take him, but I'll keep my lip zipped.

As for Str in Tier 2, it would only allow him to slowplay in tier 2. He caps his other important stats quicker, he gets to tier 3 quicker. A DB getting to tier 3 has usually been their problem. Helping it be easier for him while still getting an effective unit out of it (as in, not having Aran's problem of being horrifyingly lopsided) could only be considered good, ya?

Definitely I wouldn't deny Eddie a forge.

He doesn't mind, but if my argument is solid enough, he won't need one.

[Ether]

Ether, have patience, I'm still working on it. I know where I'm coming from, but I still have a long way before I'm ready to present the full argument.

I would also make the claim that even though mages eat at him, they're still a minor annoyance at best. But I can see how he puts it to good use.

Just wish Eddie didn't have to contend with him of all people.

Of which you'd be surprised how far that would take him, but I'll keep my lip zipped.

As for Str in Tier 2, it would only allow him to slowplay in tier 2. He caps his other important stats quicker, he gets to tier 3 quicker. A DB getting to tier 3 has usually been their problem. Helping it be easier for him while still getting an effective unit out of it (as in, not having Aran's problem of being horrifyingly lopsided) could only be considered good, ya?

He doesn't mind, but if my argument is solid enough, he won't need one.

Sure,i can wait,just wondering about the reasoning is all.Str doesn't seem to be Eddie's outstanding problem,but let's see what you've got when it's ready.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Ether

[nflchamp]

Sure,i can wait,just wondering about the reasoning is all.Str doesn't seem to be Eddie's outstanding problem,but let's see what you've got when it's ready.

Strength (not DEF, surprisingly) is easily the biggest problem for Eddie at the beginning of the game. Sure, that amazing growth helps in the long run, but Eddie's output sucks at the beginning of the game.

[Interceptor]

I would also make the claim that even though mages eat at him, they're still a minor annoyance at best. But I can see how he puts it to good use.

Volug is forced to face them in 1-5 and 1-6-2 in efficient clears, and the Elfire mages damn near 2HKO him. Taking a counter from them on Player Phase is very bad sauce for him, since his only form of self-healing is conflicting with his only way to fight mages (certainly can't hurt them on Enemy Phase).

As for Str in Tier 2, it would only allow him to slowplay in tier 2. He caps his other important stats quicker, he gets to tier 3 quicker. A DB getting to tier 3 has usually been their problem. Helping it be easier for him while still getting an effective unit out of it (as in, not having Aran's problem of being horrifyingly lopsided) could only be considered good, ya?

This has come up a few times before, so let me be very clear about one issue:

DAWN BRIGADE UNITS CANNOT SLOW-PLAY BEXP

They don't have the BEXP reserves, they don't have the time, and they don't have the caps in tier 1. If you BEXP someone, you are doing it in Part 3, with a funnel and a firehose.

Thank you, and we now return to our regularly-scheduled tier thread.

[Anouleth]

This has come up a few times before, so let me be very clear about one issue:

DAWN BRIGADE UNITS CANNOT SLOW-PLAY BEXP

They don't have the BEXP reserves, they don't have the time, and they don't have the caps in tier 1. If you BEXP someone, you are doing it in Part 3, with a funnel and a firehose.

Your post made me giggle.

I think some people here don't understand what slowplaying means. At the very least, they should look at the word carefully, and realise that slowplaying is slow.

[Interceptor]

It's my fault, for using the term in FE debating in the first place. Sometimes, like in the case of "insta-blick" or "sandbag", the word is sufficiently colorful such that you can understand what it means, and it's a worthy addition to the lexicon. And then there's "slowplay"... something that still serves to confuse to this day.

Can't win 'em all.

[grandjackal]

Volug is forced to face them in 1-5 and 1-6-2 in efficient clears, and the Elfire mages damn near 2HKO him. Taking a counter from them on Player Phase is very bad sauce for him, since his only form of self-healing is conflicting with his only way to fight mages (certainly can't hurt them on Enemy Phase).

When you say efficient clear of 1-5, you mean sending him up to protect Jill? There's only one nearby, and the other is rather out of the way unless you purposefully close in to attack it (the upper right). Whoever's on the ledge gets the others.

1-6-2? Could fly Sothe up with knives to pull the mages away from the cav force, while Volug takes care of said force. Sothe pulls in the boss with knives, steels Paragon for hte extra EXP (though he didn't need to, it's still nice), Volug finishes. Volug fights no mages.

This has come up a few times before, so let me be very clear about one issue:

DAWN BRIGADE UNITS CANNOT SLOW-PLAY BEXP

Perhaps there is confusion, I figured "slowplaying" was just capping off near-levels once a couple stats were capped. I think you had that confused with a BEXP dump.

They don't have the BEXP reserves, they don't have the time, and they don't have the caps in tier 1. If you BEXP someone, you are doing it in Part 3, with a funnel and a firehose.

I think that more depends on what level a tier 1 unit gets by the start of 1-E, and if they even have stats capped before level 20. However, only two I can think of that are like that are Aran and Eddie, so...

Would count Leo, if his gains still weren't shite (Str helps, but HP and Luck doesn't).

Thank you, and we now return to our regularly-scheduled tier thread.

Dammit, Jimmy Kimmel's on, can I change the channel?

Edited March 2, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Interceptor]

When you say efficient clear of 1-5, you mean sending him up to protect Jill? There's only one nearby, and the other is rather out of the way unless you purposefully close in to attack it (the upper right). Whoever's on the ledge gets the others.

And if Volug gets countered by the one, which he will if he doesn't OHKO, he takes huge damage at a high rate of accuracy. It impedes his ability to deal with 2-range enemies because it pushes forward the time when he has to heal. Same deal with the other mage in the northeast, without the ability to OHKO Volug has to be careful about choosing to fight him.

1-6-2? Could fly Sothe up with knives to pull the mages away from the cav force, while Volug takes care of said force. Sothe pulls in the boss with knives, steels Paragon for hte extra EXP (though he didn't need to, it's still nice), Volug finishes. Volug fights no mages.

Sothe can't fly. Nobody gets to Fiona faster than Volug, not even Jill. Once Volug is there, he's well-positioned to OHKO one or two of them.

Perhaps there is confusion, I figured "slowplaying" was just capping off near-levels once a couple stats were capped. I think you had that confused with a BEXP dump.

I think you believe that DB's Part 3 is 20 chapters long. You aren't slowplaying BEXP until you are getting someone close to their level-up, and then finishing it in base, with the purpose of getting the gravy of BEXP (guaranteed 3 stat-ups) without the cost of blasting entire levels worth of it using a highly limited resource.

Mia, Nephenee and Ike all do this. Nobody in the DB does. There is no time to do it. Even the rosiest possible estimate for Eddie won't have him capping enough stats until f'n 3-12.

Dammit, Jimmy Kimmel's on, can I change the channel?

I would, Kimmel is a hack.

[grandjackal]

And if Volug gets countered by the one, which he will if he doesn't OHKO, he takes huge damage at a high rate of accuracy. It impedes his ability to deal with 2-range enemies because it pushes forward the time when he has to heal. Same deal with the other mage in the northeast, without the ability to OHKO Volug has to be careful about choosing to fight him.

Not that many enemies accompany the first mage. Same with the second. At best, it would save a turn from having to use a healing item in a very short-turned map before attacking 1 unit specific unit on the map. After rescuing Jill (to Volug's credit, of which he doesn't need the drop to do), the rest of the map is solely to the benefit of the character. I doubt Volug will cry over not having 2 Strikes.

Sothe can't fly. Nobody gets to Fiona faster than Volug, not even Jill. Once Volug is there, he's well-positioned to OHKO one or two of them.

Step 1. Jill rescues Sothe. Step 2. Jill drops Sothe over the river. Step 3. Sothe counters mages with knives, while Volug takes out the cavaliers as you mentioned. Step 5. ??? Step 6. PROFIT!!

I think you believe that DB's Part 3 is 20 chapters long. You aren't slowplaying BEXP until you are getting someone close to their level-up, and then finishing it in base, with the purpose of getting the gravy of BEXP (guaranteed 3 stat-ups) without the cost of blasting entire levels worth of it using a highly limited resource.

1. You seem to be implying that Eddie needs a LOT of these BEXP capped levels. Depending on how many he gets tier 1 before sealed (if we're to go by when stats cap, that's be two levels), he wouldn't need a lot more to be passable once crowned. Only problem then would be the crown. Which case, I told you this argument is currently incomplete before I start getting more into it.

2. After he caps HP and Str, his overall stat distribution average per level is 2.35. By no means would he be blasting away levels.

Mia, Nephenee and Ike all do this. Nobody in the DB does. There is no time to do it. Even the rosiest possible estimate for Eddie won't have him capping enough stats until f'n 3-12.

Which again would depend on how much he gets from tier 1. He'd generally cap Str and HP at the same time tier 2 with that considered. If he were hitting those caps at about 3-12, he'd generally get a bit of BEXP treatment in 3-13, then a bit in part 4. I'm not even arguing a dump, just a couple BEXP capped levels over the course of 2 chapters.

I think the thorn in my argument's side here is not the BEXP, but rather a crown.

I would, Kimmel is a hack.

So many channels, yet nothing to watch...

Edited March 2, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[-Cynthia-]

I perosnally just dump a few levels of BEXP on Eddie before Sealing him in 1-E. He's probably capped Hp/Skl/Spd, so his chances of getting some Str and Def are pretty good.

[Interceptor]

It's true that Volug's performance in 1-5 is at least partially self-improvement, but it's important self-improvement, because it's in the army's best interest to get him to S-strike sooner rather than later. He can face a lot of combat safely in this chapter... safely, that is, if he doesn't have to worry about half of his health evaporating from a counter.

Having Jill ferry Sothe in 1-6-2 is not only still slower than Volug, but now takes two units away from the action instead of one, and is mutually exclusive with a Tauroneo-drop onto the boss island. From an efficiency perspective, it is all kinds of fail.

1. You seem to be implying [...]

Everything after this is wrong. I am not implying what you are inferring. What I am saying is that you are using a word inappropriately. Slowplaying is maximizing BEXP use by slowly finishing off a unit's partial levels in base while they are playing through a significant number of chapters where you are doing this. Eddie is doing no such thing. An apple is not an orange, even though they are both round.

[Narga_Rocks]

Critforge has three main benefits:

- It's purely money-based, unlike Adept, so for people who aren't pissing gold away on hookers and blow, Mia can nearly get it for free.

- It augments her Adept proc rate. For example, With Adept and a Steel Blade only she may be 60% ORKO, but with a critforge in place of a Blade you can push that rate to about 72%. Crit is also bio-immune, meaning that it helps keep her kill rate from cratering when she goes into Worst bio and Adept is only proccing 20% of the time.

- It improves her durability, because anything that she 3HKOs at 1-range (which is a lot of stuff), will die instantly before attacking her on Enemy Phase if Vantage and crit proc at the same time. This only happens about ~7.5% of the time, but it's more than double what she would normally get.

So it's something that you can pass on, but there is really no reason to do so. Even if you just make her a single forge without replacing it and keep it on deck for situations that +15% crit or te extra +1 mt reach will make a difference, it's worth doing. GMs don't have a lot of expenditures.

Personally I mostly limit the use of her forge to Generals. And typically when there is more than one to attack. The crit helps her kill rate on them since she 4HKOs and in addition she might need the extra +1 mt to 4HKO rather than 5HKO, considering that's an extra 4 damage over 4 hits (or 1 normal + 1 crit).

When you say efficient clear of 1-5, you mean sending him up to protect Jill? There's only one nearby, and the other is rather out of the way unless you purposefully close in to attack it (the upper right). Whoever's on the ledge gets the others.

I have to say, I just let Volug get hit by the mage and heal him with a vulnerary. He mainly just needs to be a warm body for this all to work and Jill not die. Maybe needing to heal him causes me to get less strike, I don't know, but I figure it's fine.

Perhaps there is confusion, I figured "slowplaying" was just capping off near-levels once a couple stats were capped. I think you had that confused with a BEXP dump.

If you can get him to even cap anything before 1-E starts then you could give him a bit of bexp there, and then again at the start of 3-6. Maybe you get two bexp levels out of it (hopefully for like less than 30 real exp points, but maybe not so cheap) or maybe you get 1. What's it do? Then for tier 2, how quickly are you expecting to cap hp and str? What's the benefit of bexping for skl, spd, and his now 3rd best growth (I think luck)? More details avoids confusion. Expected levels + what you expect to get out of the bexp + how much you think it costs + what chapter bases you are doing this all in.

@Int, it's not a lot of slowplaying, but if you are only finishing the level rather than giving 110 to 120 real exp then it really is slow playing. Just, not nearly as useful/helpful as the slowplaying on Mia and Ike.

Oh, and for the 1-6-2 strategy, if you are simply 2 or 3 turning with a Taur drop using Jill then I think there is a pure water available with 3 uses until some time in part 3. Now seems as good a time as any for one use. Volug shouldn't need the drop to accomplish his task. Having Jill fly Sothe up and sending Volug up as well allows you to still 5 or 6 turn 1-6-2 and even get a boss kill for Jill, provided Sothe has a max mt iron knife forge and has proc'd str once so far and Jill has a max mt iron forge.

Edited March 2, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

The only problem I have with sending every one of the good characters north on 1-6-2 is that the stragglers are very vulnerable.

[Narga_Rocks]

The only problem I have with sending every one of the good characters north on 1-6-2 is that the stragglers are very vulnerable.

I'll grant that I was using Taur to hold the bridge. Aran needs aggressive leveling to do it without risking death, Zihark will die if he gets hit enough and I think the hit rates against him are alarmingly high for that. I needed to have Taur carry someone for the enemy to attack him rather than a vulnerable unit. I think I gave him a bronze lance for it, though it may be necessary to have Taur unequipped. Don't remember.

Now, on the first turn when you go out and kill things, Volug and Sothe still get to attack something to help out your stragglers. Jill picks up Volug. Jill with a robe can survive getting attacked by the two cavs that start south of the bridge so provided you kill everything else in the starting area she'll be fine. I think they may kill her if she's robe-less.

[Interceptor]

In every playthough I've done (normal ones, anyway), I usually clear out the bottom portion on the first turn, send Volug on his way, and then set up a kill zone on or near the bridge. T-drop optional from this point forth. Unless I am misremembering the placement, I think that it becomes safe for the Micaiah/Ilyana/Laura etc afterwards.

[grandjackal]

Like I said, I'm not 100% prepared with this argument, so for the moment now I'm prepared to drop it. However, it does seem to have struck a cord, so don't be surprised if it comes back up (if it in fact does). However, just to clear a couple things up before we move on to whatever's next.

Also, forgot about the Pure Water.

If you can get him to even cap anything before 1-E starts then you could give him a bit of bexp there, and then again at the start of 3-6. Maybe you get two bexp levels out of it (hopefully for like less than 30 real exp points, but maybe not so cheap) or maybe you get 1.

Could be possible, but that'd have to go into an intense look into if he can get all the exp for that throughout the entireity of part 1, which could end up being too specific by the later points. So basically, it can be assumed, but I don't think it would be a solid point.

What's it do?

Well, it gives him essentially +1Def, Luck and +2 Str over his averages. With the drop though, he could enter tier 2 with 21 Str. That is, if all goes well. Certainly gives him plenty of leeway, I'm sure.

Then for tier 2, how quickly are you expecting to cap hp and str?

HP is still about his average, Str at about level...6. Perhaps that is a bit too early to be capping it. Well, you could always early seal him instead of giving him those two levels of BEXP at tier 1. If we go that way, he'd still cap Str at about the same time he would cap HP, just both would be earlier than later (as Str used to cap after rather than before HP).

What's the benefit of bexping for skl, spd, and his now 3rd best growth (I think luck)?

Outside of luck, it would be similar logic to why we crown Gatrie after he caps his Str, Def and Speed. Once you cap your important stats, what good is it to stay in tier 2?

More details avoids confusion. Expected levels + what you expect to get out of the bexp + how much you think it costs + what chapter bases you are doing this all in.

I'm sorry for the confusion, as this all started out with making a remark over Volug getting the drops.

With sealing at level 18 rather than BEXPd, I'll have to rethink this a bit more, so again, let's drop it for now, I'm sure I can't make anything convincing at this point. It would all hinge really on the levels I'd expect from part 3 (which I have to do sort of a refresher run), and other anomalies that weren't there, such as Energy Drop'd Eddie at level 11 on 1-5's ledge (and I feel I will get sniped at for suggesting level 11 on Eddie for 1-5 on top of it, but that's what I would expect).

@Int, it's not a lot of slowplaying, but if you are only finishing the level rather than giving 110 to 120 real exp then it really is slow playing. Just, not nearly as useful/helpful as the slowplaying on Mia and Ike.

Though I'm sure there are a few units out there who'd gladly give up luck on the level up for a higher level.

Oh, and for the 1-6-2 strategy, if you are simply 2 or 3 turning with a Taur drop using Jill then I think there is a pure water available with 3 uses until some time in part 3. Now seems as good a time as any for one use. Volug shouldn't need the drop to accomplish his task. Having Jill fly Sothe up and sending Volug up as well allows you to still 5 or 6 turn 1-6-2 and even get a boss kill for Jill, provided Sothe has a max mt iron knife forge and has proc'd str once so far and Jill has a max mt iron forge.

Pretty much this.

I also don't find the cavs coming from the left as much a problem. If we're agreeing (in theory) to Volug with Sothe being ferried north, who do we have to take out the cavs? Taur, Zihark, Miccy's Thani, scrub mob. These cavs also have 20 ATK, 17 on the wing edge bitch. If a level 12 Eddie either proc'd a Defense, or got to level 13 in 1-6-1, even he's getting 3RKOd. I find it easier to just let them come in, and then swarm them on player phase, since unless you're Tauroneo, just sitting there and trying to fend them off won't work well thanks to their canto allowing 3 units to attack the same opening (so bottlenecking the bridge isn't that smart an idea, unless of course you're captain God Mode Taur). It's probably better to let them in some open field, then taking them out there. Even if you left one alive, it's not like he's that big a threat.

[Interceptor]

Because I missed these two points earlier:

He doesn't mind, but if my argument is solid enough, he won't need one.

Baloney @that. Forged iron is +2 mt over plain Steel, which neatly eliminates most of what the Energy Drop does. Since Eddie was already considered to have access to an 11mt forge, any new developments here with your Energy Drop will also be using a forge, unless it's the case that people were just accidentally sandbagging Eddie's performance with his forge (which is certainly possible). It seems unlikely to me that Eddie is better off without a forge than with one, in terms of tier placement, less than 2000 gold for a decent weapon will not break the bank.

On top of that, Eddie is probably one of the few people who can actually have a forged Steel weapon in 1-E, and not have it matter much. Consider that Ilyana is probably going to be deployed so as to get the Speedwing over to the GMs, that Eddie is getting Caladbolg in 3-6 (which completely negates his need for forged Steel), and that there is a highly-likely to be used unit in the GMs that would love to have Eddie's leftover forge, aka Mia. Even though the weapon would cost around 5000 gold, the DB can afford it, and it's not likely to go to waste.

So I don't think that an Eddie comparison without a pair of forges is really representative of his capabilities.

I think the thorn in my argument's side here is not the BEXP, but rather a crown.

I don't know that I agree it's such a fatal issue. You have two crowns, and trying to raise more than two tier 1 units from the DB is a fool's game. I guess you'd lose the ability to make Tauroneo a temporary tier 3 superstar, but my assumption is that efficient Eddie means it's him and Nolan as crownees, and nobody else. I guess your playthrough might show to what extent that's possible.

[grandjackal]

To respond before moving on.

@Forges: Perhaps it's just me being too antsy with the forge again. I know it makes things easier, but I hardly would call it necessary. Like, it seems more of a want than a need. I've hated the forge since it's introduction (and is fucknuts retarded in FEDS), so perhaps it's just me trying to get used to it.

Wait, the forge is +2 might more than steel? *doublechecks* I thought the iron sword had 5 might, not 6. Silly me, didn't realized they buffed the damage ever so slightly.

Thanks for pointing it out though, would help. Though right now, I'm just going through a bit of raegquitting because in 1-3, the RNG decided to be a fucker (I missed 99s...Yes, that's plural). 'll be back to it though...At some point.

@Crown: Will make note of it, and tell of the results once I get there. Doesn't help that I've put it on raegquit, or that part 2 is like nyquil to me.

Anyways, let's move on for now.

[Florete]

Uh...I'm guessing I need to move Volug back up now.

[Interceptor]

Yeah, I think that Volug in Top tier is justif...whatthefuck, Sothe is top of High? When the heck did that happen?

[grandjackal]

Uh...I'm guessing I need to move Volug back up now.

At the very least, below the transfer gods. I'll admit, perhaps it was a bit too far off of me to suggest, but what do you think has more bearing, comparing to Sothe or comparing to Ike?

Edited March 3, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Florete]

Yeah, I think that Volug in Top tier is justif...whatthefuck, Sothe is top of High? When the heck did that happen?

When Mia went up. I couldn't see her > him, and since she was climbing, he had to climb as well.

[Ether]

When Mia went up. I couldn't see her > him, and since she was climbing, he had to climb as well.

That's right,i was gonna make an argument for that,but you seemed to be overstressed at the time,so i decided to leave it...I'll have to write that up tommorow,unless Int,you want to do it?

[grandjackal]

I'd argue that Sothe's too useful to his team in comparison to Mia just being another one of the murder mercs (as in, you aren't exactly of short supply with the GM with the power to maul face).