OMG it's a tier list

[-Cynthia-]

I think Oliver taking a slot for 4-E means that he can't contribute anything, since we should have a better unit than Oliver to fill his place. We can't recruit Oliver until the end of 4-4, so he doesn't do anything for us there either. I kind of see Lehran> Oliver as .001>0.

Bastian has some use in 4-5, and I think he's less terrible offensively/durabiltiy wise than Oliver.

Edited May 7, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

Nah, I'm not saying Oliver > Bastian. I'm just stating the example if someone were to throw "why would I use Oliver over someone, say, Bastian?" Also, Oliver frees up Micaiah to Thani-Bomb 4-E-1, which is far from terrible. I guess he isn't as useful with other things, but I guess Sephiran is one of those weird slopes overall.

[-Cynthia-]

I've found Micaiah can't Thani-bomb 4-E(1) that effectively anyway, since the Res of the Part 4 Generals is surprisingly good, and she has issues gaining levels in Part 3 and 4.

[Colonel M]

I guess it more or less depends on how much we're training Micaiah. Thani has 24 Mt. Assuming that Micaiah can at least gain something like 15 levels at worst (so we're sort of using her to some extent) she has ~21 Mag to deal with. That's about 45 Atk. Generals have 25 Res tops. So not assuming that they're sitting on Res tiles she at least produces about 20 damage. So while I'm not saying that Micaiah is or isn't being seriously used, that should take a General towards the point of being ORKOed guaranteed by units without the reliance of skills (since most Generals at least require an activation of a skill somewhere with rare exceptions).

[Narga_Rocks]

I guess it more or less depends on how much we're training Micaiah. Thani has 24 Mt. Assuming that Micaiah can at least gain something like 15 levels at worst (so we're sort of using her to some extent) she has ~21 Mag to deal with. That's about 45 Atk. Generals have 25 Res tops. So not assuming that they're sitting on Res tiles she at least produces about 20 damage. So while I'm not saying that Micaiah is or isn't being seriously used, that should take a General towards the point of being ORKOed guaranteed by units without the reliance of skills (since most Generals at least require an activation of a skill somewhere with rare exceptions).

That much is true. I'd love if she were capable either of OHKOing them or at least doubling, but we all know that won't happen. On the other hand, you could give her Resolve if you can't find a unit that can be safe with it on enemy phase. Micaiah would at least be player phase. Of course, I think turncounts by some people for this chapter are like 4 or less so she wouldn't get much out of it. Anyway, like you said, at least she means another unit won't need an activation. Many units do 35+ damage in two hits to these things anyway. Micaiah doesn't even need that 20 damage. Just 17 or so does the trick. For some units she only needs to cause like 10 damage for a 2HKO. And Thany is reasonably accurate and no counters against 1 range enemies.

[Colonel M]

That much is true. I'd love if she were capable either of OHKOing them or at least doubling, but we all know that won't happen. On the other hand, you could give her Resolve if you can't find a unit that can be safe with it on enemy phase. Micaiah would at least be player phase. Of course, I think turncounts by some people for this chapter are like 4 or less so she wouldn't get much out of it. Anyway, like you said, at least she means another unit won't need an activation. Many units do 35+ damage in two hits to these things anyway. Micaiah doesn't even need that 20 damage. Just 17 or so does the trick. For some units she only needs to cause like 10 damage for a 2HKO. And Thany is reasonably accurate and no counters against 1 range enemies.

I don't know how difficult it is to pull her into Wrath range, but with Wrath she can OHKO so long as she does about 17-18 damage. Granted it's ~a coinflip or less chance, but at least if she hits the Generals it's still a dent with the possibility of a OHKO.

[Florete]

Before I make an "argument", let me ask if RFoF is still alive. You know, don't want to make arguments when the OP isn't really... yeah.

I'm still around as much as I've always been, I just don't find myself posting as often anymore. Couldn't tell you why.

Yeah, probably. Ah well, I'll post what I wanted to see anyway.

First off, I think most of us agreed back in smash's little topic that Sanaki > Bastian. Secondly, I'd like to present Oliver > Sephiran. Okay, I get that Sephiran is this great unit and all in 4-E-5. Now consider that Oliver takes an Endgame slot. Being that he is a Saint, he has access to SS Rank Staves. With it, this means that Oliver is able to help around with healing in 4-E-1 more efficiently than Bastian since it's Physic vs. Fortify, with Fortify winning overall. If it requires more elaboration or whatnot, I'm cool with doing so.

I don't like just countering any argument like this with "Micaiah" all the time, but...Well, she exists. She should have more Mag than Oliver (his base is 31 and she should have 32), grows much faster, has more than twice his Mag growth, will be supporting someone, can even have better durability due to possibly having more Spd to prevent being doubled, and is forced. Oliver's advantages? He doesn't need an Arms Scroll or two, and...he can Shove a few more people?

In light of this, Oliver being able to use Fortify while Bastian can't is virtually meaningless since optimal resource distribution and efficient play say Micaiah will have it. You can't even use the argument I sometimes like to use in similar cases (like Reyson vs Rafiel) that she might have died.

I just read your post again and remembered this is Oliver vs Sephiran, not Oliver vs Bastian. Whoops. Sorry for all that. Does anyone have some paragraph or something showing what Lehran can really do for us in 4-E-5 (I'm too lazy...)? Without knowing for sure I can't say where I stand on this. I feel I could go either way, really.

And Thany is reasonably accurate and no counters against 1 range enemies.

Thany isn't in this game. :P

[Colonel M]

I'm still around as much as I've always been, I just don't find myself posting as often anymore. Couldn't tell you why.

M_E_R_

Well tier discussion sort of died after that.

I don't like just countering any argument like this with "Micaiah" all the time, but...Well, she exists. She should have more Mag than Oliver (his base is 31 and she should have 32), grows much faster, has more than twice his Mag growth, will be supporting someone, can even have better durability due to possibly having more Spd to prevent being doubled, and is forced. Oliver's advantages? He doesn't need an Arms Scroll or two, and...he can Shove a few more people?

Nah it's completely fine. What I'm emphasizing is that now we can have Micaiah attack in 4-E-1 instead of playing healbot. If we're seriously training her, we might as well make some use of that Mag with Thani on the Generals. He still needs Arms Scrolls for the Staves, but honestly I couldn't care about Arms Scroll distribution so much in this game.

I guess I also don't know what's going on in 4-E-5 to really determine how useful Oliver is there and Sephiran is there as well. *Shrugs*.

[Interceptor]

Lehran in 4-E-5 in efficient play is basically only good for one shot of Ashera Staff on Turn 1, at the end. That, or someone gets a tome up to him (like blessed Rexaura) and he can sorta damage the only Aura he can reach, which is unfortunately on Wardwood iirc. On Turn 2, he can seriously injure a corner aura if one still exists, otherwise he's useless for anything else, since unless your team is terrible you're not going to see Turn 3.

There is really no need for a healer other than Micaiah, you are better off just stuffing your ranks with asskickers. It sucks for second-string healers, but such is life. Honestly, with Fortify you don't even need someone with Physic access. About the only staff user I can think of that's actually doing something better than Micaiah is Elincia, due to the hax that's possible when you give a Rescue staff to someone with 9MV and flying.

[Florete]

So Oliver vs Lehran practically comes down to the cost of Oliver's deployment?

[Interceptor]

Unfortunately, I think that's the case. Oliver has no serious use outside of Endgame -- where he's surely bumping out a better combatant, and his healing is superfluous -- so whatever nigh-useless function that Lehran performs in 4-E-5 is probably better than what you're going to get out of Oliver's team. Oliver gets Lehran for free, but Lehran can toss in some lategame filler like Stefan in place of Oliver and have an easier time in Endgame.

[Colonel M]

Makes sense at least. I thought that would be the issue with Oliver anyway (more or less the deployment slot). Elincia also has the blessing with Wyrmslayer too, so yeah.

I guess I still stand with the Sanaki > Bastian stuff that went on. If you need a refresher This topic covers a lot of it.

[Florete]

Sanaki > Bastian wasn't already done? *Checks list* Is it because we didn't know if Bastian should go down, Sanaki up, or meet in the middle, and where?

[Colonel M]

Looking at the list Bastian is above Kurth, Lethe, and Gareth. Maybe it's just me but I think "Bastian down" is a better for now unless we could do something like prove Sanaki being better than Kurth, which in that case we'd just rise Sanaki. Proving Sanaki > Kurth probably isn't impossible either.

So maybe a combination of both?

Edited May 7, 2010 by Colonel M

[Florete]

I dropped Bastian for now. If anyone wants to argue the new positions, have at it.

[Shadow Mir]

If I may ask, why is Lethe above Renning?

[Narga_Rocks]

If I may ask, why is Lethe above Renning?

Because of GJ and me. Argument long time ago. I could find it but don't really want to.

Anyway, a different argument than the one made before is that she makes it easier to beat 2-2 quickly while Renning never makes anything go better and is always kicking out a unit that would do a better job in 4-E.

[nflchamp]

I wanted Sanaki up, actually. I mean, what does Kurthnaga do? Give some +DEF in 4-E-1, do nothing in 4-E-2, wall in 4-E-3/do some cheap damage, not get fielded in 4-E-4 or 4-E-5. Well I guess he has some chance to be fielded in 4-E-4/5, but he'd need to beat Gareth/Sanaki for a spot, the former has a better skill and the later probably out-damages him with siege stuff (especially against the tougher cover tiles). I have to believe that Bastian/Sanaki are better than him.

[Anouleth]

Kurth can take Sothe's place, he doesn't need to deprive Gareth and Sanaki.

[Narga_Rocks]

Kurth can take Sothe's place, he doesn't need to deprive Gareth and Sanaki.

Yeah, the competition for slots in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5 is pretty much between sanaki, kurth, and sothe. One of them gets the final slot. Nasir and Gareth are coming no matter what if you want to win quickly.

[nflchamp]

I already had Sothe as a benchwarmer. I figured Gareth/Sanaki/Kurth were going for the last two slots.

[Anouleth]

I'd rather have Sanaki, to be honest. Her ~20 damage to an Aura is slightly better than Kurth's ~12 damage due to better accuracy, and being able to do it to a Cover Tile. His defensive boost is only really useful if we care about Rafiel dying (hint - I don't).

[Florete]

Since Bastian dropped, does anyone think Renning should drop? For reference:

Low (10) (T-1)

Kurthnaga

Lethe (N/T)

Renning

Gareth

Sanaki

Bastian (N/T - Str)

Lehran

Oliver

Kyza

I haven't looked into his performance in a while, but I'm unsure if he should be > Gareth or Bastian.

[-Cynthia-]

I would say Bastian is better than Renning. They're both meh Endgame filler, but at least Bastian has 4-5.

[Shadow Mir]

To be honest, I'm not seeing why Lethe is above Sanaki. Sanaki takes off over 50% of some poor schmuck's health when she's around. Exactly what does Lethe do that has her above Sanaki?

EDIT: And Flare pretty much kills an enemy on the spot if it goes off.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Richter Lanford