OMG it's a tier list

[nflchamp]

Why don't we make a topic to discuss where resources (namely stat boosters) are likely to go? Then we can just order the units that are likely to get the item in the OP or something. Rather than continue to bring up the same arguments in the tier list every time a stat booster is brought, all the arguments will be in a nice location.

[Interceptor]

Grandjackal did that once, actually, it's right here. It's probably worth making another one though, since iirc smash_fanatic ruined the shit out of that thread.

[-Cynthia-]

Boyd can also start doubling reliably once Paragon gets thrown into the mix, the Speedwing helps him there for things like 4-E. Kyza is terrible in 4-E so the long term benefits for the Speedwing aren't as high.

I guess I can see Kyza move up, depends on how much we value subpar, but mediocre with a Speedwing GM opposed to Endgame filler. I don't see him moving over Lethe overall though.

[Florete]

Boyd can also start doubling reliably once Paragon gets thrown into the mix, the Speedwing helps him there for things like 4-E. Kyza is terrible in 4-E so the long term benefits for the Speedwing aren't as high.

I don't think Boyd ever doubles reliably, Paragon or not. You might get him to borderline but that's probably the best you can get. Boyd (T) is another story, since that guy makes a strong case for a Speedwing.

[grandjackal]

Grandjackal did that once, actually, it's right here. It's probably worth making another one though, since iirc smash_fanatic ruined the shit out of that thread.

I could always start another, now that smash-fanatic isn't here to ruin the shit out of it.

Would also help promote discussion of people who AREN'T high and low tier. It's been ages since I've seen anyone discuss mid tier outside of Eddie trying to get in there.

[_____]

I tend to bring up Rhys every once in a while. Does that count?

[Narga_Rocks]

I tend to bring up Rhys every once in a while. Does that count?

It should, anyway. Though I think if Interceptor had his way both Rhys and Mist may drop. Just look at what he talks about in his playthrough of this game and how little he used healing in part 3. It devolves to water > fire and thus Pocket Mist > Pocket Rhys.

[Fenrir]

I don't think Boyd ever doubles reliably, Paragon or not. You might get him to borderline but that's probably the best you can get. Boyd (T) is another story, since that guy makes a strong case for a Speedwing.

i would disagree, boyd can double almost anything(almost b/c of swordmasters) without bexp abuse even in HM, on my current playthrough i gave him speedwing, he was doubling some stuff a couple chapters after i gave it to him on which was at 3-11 he was classchanged by part 4, 28 speed, enough to double anything but swordmasters that was the same as haar's who had 28 WITH a speedwing however he got some awful levels two in a row of only luck. but anyways boyd and mia took out the whole bottom of 4-2 and boyd got up to level 5 and 31 speed(you could call this abuse but hell i got neph to lvl 9 from 1 in 4-P.) so by then he could double cats in 4-5 he got a speed or two, now im on 4-E-3, he double everything he attacked save the swordmasters who he hit 43 on(47 hp -.-) and collosused a couple, so i would say Boyd is a great character to give speedwing to. i would call him the best player phase beorc character in the game with one.

Edited June 1, 2010 by King Soren

[dondon151]

No, not really. Check your bases and growth rates next time, not the Boyd on your save file.

[Florete]

Hey, I just noticed Tibarn and Naesala right next to each other. Does anyone remember how this happened? I was under the impression they were further apart.

[Colonel M]

Hey, I just noticed Tibarn and Naesala right next to each other. Does anyone remember how this happened? I was under the impression they were further apart.

That was me (though I argued for a closed gap, not entirely). I remember talking how Naesala and Tibarn practically helped carry their teams within the same vein. The only minor difference is Tibarn having an easier chance in Endgame, and I wouldn't 100% turn down Naesala either since he still helps in 4-E-1 if you slap Adept on him. Tibarn does have the higher Mt though, so I would obviously concede to Tibarn > Naesala, though I wouldn't argue against it otherwise. Of course, this was almost a year ago IIRC...

[RNG Princess]

I have some doubts if Oliver is always going to be a negative, shouldn't he be in bottom tier?

Following this wouldn't this also make Astrid, Meg, and Fiona be above him?

Also what makes Oscar without transfers be superior to Mordecai? Shouldn't it be the other way around, because Mordecai is one of the better Part 2 characters.

Micaiah and Elincia's healing is very valuable I personally believe they should be considered high tier.

what about Kyza vs Astrid(/T)? who is being more helpful between the two?

Howcome Sanaki is below Gareth? Isn't he like 1-rounded by Ashera?

Edited June 2, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Zkirsche]

Hmmm... I thought i did a lot on Naesala.

But yeah, I've always seen them as pretty close, and was quite surprised when i saw you gave Tibarn an entire point over Naesala because the only thing I see Tibarn > Naesala for is 4-E as both are very useful at reducing turncounts in their pre-4-E chapters, and even then I don't think the gap is spectacular between the two even in 4-E (Generals in 4-E-1, I believe constitutes most of it). Right next to each other seems perfectly reasonable.

For what it's worth, Naesala can probably rescue someone without getting doubled afterwards.

I once again push for the notion that they should both drop, Mist moreso than Rhys, as teh difference between them really is negligible. Also, Mist (T) down to mid tier.

Also, I'd like to add my view on this whole Kyza issue, and as a start, I think we shoudl raise him to below Bastian, as his pot damage > Oliver's non-existance helpfulness + Lehran's short tea party with Ashera.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Kirsche

[Mekkah]

For what it's worth, Naesala can probably rescue someone without getting doubled afterwards.

So can Tibarn, he just needs Savior.

[Zkirsche]

So can Tibarn, he just needs Savior.

Without saviour, I mean.

[Interceptor]

OK, but Tibarn actually comes with Savior, along with Pavise. He gets them cap-free.

[Junkhead]

Would Gamble be recommendable on Tibarn?

I gave it to Ulki and Janaff in FE9, but the critical activation were more common due to enemies having low Luck.

[Interceptor]

Consider that when Tibarn attacks something, it usually dies horribly. In the rare circumstance that two claws to the face don't do the job, Tear usually will. Explain to me why Tibarn would want to cut his accuracy in half with Gamble, and risk leaving something alive by missing.

[Dat Nick]

I have some doubts if Oliver is always going to be a negative, shouldn't he be in bottom tier?

Following this wouldn't this also make Astrid, Meg, and Fiona be above him?

what

troll post or what?

[NinjaMonkey]

I have some doubts if Oliver is always going to be a negative, shouldn't he be in bottom tier?

Following this wouldn't this also make Astrid, Meg, and Fiona be above him?

Oliver's healing utility is better than anything Astrid, Meg and Fiona can do.

[Dat Nick]

Dont forget Lyre

[Florete]

I have some doubts if Oliver is always going to be a negative, shouldn't he be in bottom tier?

Following this wouldn't this also make Astrid, Meg, and Fiona be above him?

what

troll post or what?

Meh, I still support Oliver's next-to-useless ass in Bottom. I mean, if Mist and Rhys can possibly be argued lower on the basis that healing isn't too useful in part 3, what the hell does Oliver give us? He's terrible on offense and defense and Endgame is all he has, but he's like a 4th string healer or something, and that's assuming you don't raise anyone that can heal that doesn't come at tier 3 (Mist, Rhys, Laura, Soren, Calill, etc.). Anyone you've already got (Elincia, Micaiah, Bastian) is better than him and anyone you raise will likely end up better as well.

Maybe not worse than the current Bottoms (though I would definitely support Astrid > him), but I'd hardly give him so much credit as to put him a tier higher.

[Narga_Rocks]

Meh, I still support Oliver's next-to-useless ass in Bottom. I mean, if Mist and Rhys can possibly be argued lower on the basis that healing isn't too useful in part 3, what the hell does Oliver give us? He's terrible on offense and defense and Endgame is all he has, but he's like a 4th string healer or something, and that's assuming you don't raise anyone that can heal that doesn't come at tier 3 (Mist, Rhys, Laura, Soren, Calill, etc.). Anyone you've already got (Elincia, Micaiah, Bastian) is better than him and anyone you raise will likely end up better as well.

Maybe not worse than the current Bottoms (though I would definitely support Astrid > him), but I'd hardly give him so much credit as to put him a tier higher.

Probably a throw-back to smash/Vykan days. They liked Oliver. The idea being something like "hey, anyone that can heal can't possibly be as bad as the 'Unholy Trinity', right?"

I could actually support Kyza and Pelleas as > Oliver. Pelleas should probably be in the same tier as Oliver, though. Whichever tier it may be.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Anouleth]

I'd like to suggest Ilyana (T) > Leonardo. The essence of the argument is this - Ilyana simply blows Leonardo away in every chapter they're both in, to a ridiculous degree. Leonardo exists in earlier chapters but at best a minor help and at worst competition for Micaiah (who makes much better use of CEXP).

Leonardo Base Level

14ATK 115HIT

Micaiah Base Level

10ATK 126HIT

Aside from on the boss, DEF/RES gap is always 4 or greater, so Micaiah is always doing better damage and has perfect hit at neutral biorhythm (Leonardo has 90+ hit, but bio can send it to 80 or lower). In addition, Micaiah may have gained a point of Magic from the Prologue. In addition, Micaiah's magic growth is 80% to Leonardo's 40% strength, so her attack will increase faster and she's a lower level, so we have a big incentive to prioritise her for kills over Leo. This map is quite confined and in many places, we lack the room to chip with two characters, so Leonardo is unlikely to attack every turn or even most turns. His only real advantage is being able to shove people.

1-2 is more open, so Leonardo can generally chip at his leisure, but it's still not very helpful. He might gain a level here.

1-3, Ilyana shows up and we can see the insane gap between the two:

Leonardo Level 5

14ATK 118HIT

Ilyana base level

w/Thunder

17ATK 114HIT

w/Elthunder

19ATK 109HIT

Ilyana is 2HKOing everything on the map aside from a few Armours and the boss. Against Leonardo's best enemy, the Myrmidons, he 4HKOes. He's 7HKOing Soldiers. This kind of massive gap in performance is ridiculous - it's like comparing Zihark and Edward. What's funnier is that Leonardo has a 26% chance of failing to proc HP/DEF, meaning we can't expose him to anything on the map with more than 21 ATK... which is half the map, including every Archer. Ilyana's 22HP/3DEF is not amazing - a few Steel Axe Fighters OHKO her - but she can at least be exposed once and let off a counter-attack.

And lets go to 1-5. In 1-4, we get a Master Seal, and at this stage, our only choices to promote are Nolan, Ilyana, and Aran if we trained him. Nolan and Aran are obviously out since if we're training Aran, we don't want to hurt his stats, and Nolan is Nolan. So Ilyana is simply the best choice. We could save the Seal for later, except we get more Seals in later chapters, so there's no point.

Leonardo, level 7?

w/Iron Bow

15ATK 121HIT

w/Steel Bow

18ATK 116HIT

w/Iron forge (2925 cost, 5mt/10hit)

20ATK 131HIT

Ilyana, level 13/1

w/Thunder

18-19ATK 118HIT

w/Elthunder

20-21ATK 113HIT

w/Thunder forge (3432 cost, 4mt/15hit)

22-23ATK 133HIT

Again, this is just silly. Ilyana 2HKOes Fighters even with simple Thunder, and drops them to ~10HP with the Forge, while Leonardo needs Steel to 3HKO. Leo can barely 2HKO some Myrms and Mages and won't even 3HKO the Soldiers - and Ilyana can 2HKO them with ease.

And it never really gets better for Leo. Sure, he OHKOes Pegs, but Ilyana can double the slowest ones and 2HKO with the forge. Take 1-6-2 Soldiers:

1x Soldier lvl 12 (Steel Lance)

HP 27, Atk 23, AS 13, Hit 118, Avo 38, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 11 (Steel Lance)

HP 26, Atk 23, AS 13, Hit 116, Avo 38, DEF 11, RES 5, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 15 (Steel Lance, secondary Javelin)

HP 29, Atk 24, AS 14, Hit 119, Avo 41, DEF 12, RES 7, Crit 6, Ddg 8

Leo needs to be about 14/1 (never going to happen) just to 2HKO the weakest of these with a max mt forge. 13/1 Ilyana can do all of them with her forge. Things get worse against Knights:

1x Sword Knight lvl 13 (Wind Edge, droppable Red Gem)

HP 27, Atk 17, AS 12, Hit 91, Avo 37, DEF 13, RES 4, Crit 4, Ddg 8

1x Sword Knight lvl 12 (Steel Sword)

HP 26, Atk 20, AS 11, Hit 115, Avo 34, DEF 13, RES 4, Crit 4, Ddg 7

1x Sword Knight lvl 13 (Steel Sword)

HP 27, Atk 20, AS 12, Hit 115, Avo 36, DEF 13, RES 4, Crit 4, Ddg 7

2x Sword Knight lvl 14 (Steel Sword)

HP 28, Atk 21, AS 12, Hit 118, Avo 37, DEF 14, RES 5, Crit 5, Ddg 8

1x Sword Knight lvl 15 (Steel Sword)

HP 29, Atk 22, AS 13, Hit 118, Avo 39, DEF 14, RES 5, Crit 5, Ddg 8

Ilyana doesn't even need a forge to 2HKO some of these!

And things get terrible for Leo when Tormod appears, since Fire forges are available:

10/2 Leonardo

w/Iron

19mt 132HIT

w/Steel

22mt 127HIT

w/Forge

24mt 142HIT

13/2 Ilyana

w/Fire

21mt 129HIT

w/Fire Forge (Tormod nabs the Thunder for Dracoknights) Cost 3360 4mt/20hit

25mt 149HIT

Again, this is silly. Ilyana deals 18/39 damage to Bandits, Leonardo struggles to 5HKO the insane things. Even Nolan isn't doing as well as Ilyana against these monsters - a level 18 Nolan with max mt Iron deals 14/39. Ilyana only struggles with the mages, which aren't difficult for others to mop up. Incidentally, Leonardo only needs to be screwed out of 1HP/1RES or 2RES for them to 2HKO him.

So Ilyana is beating Leonardo handily from the moment she joins to the second she leaves. What advantage can Leo possibly claim? Beastfoe is better off on other people in Part 3, so what does he have? Some highly forgettable chip damage in early Part 1 and 3-6. And maybe he can take a Ballista in 3-13. I think Ilyana (T) definitely deserves to be higher than Leonardo.

Probably a throw-back to smash/Vykan days. They liked Oliver. The idea being something like "hey, anyone that can heal can't possibly be as bad as the 'Unholy Trinity', right?"

I could actually support Kyza and Pelleas as > Oliver. Pelleas should probably be in the same tier as Oliver, though. Whichever tier it may be.

Good. Oliver has always been too high and should be below Meg - Meg at least has some minor utility in wall-thwacking and person-shoving and coin-looking-for, Oliver should never even be deployed. His mere recruitment in 4-4 is a negative since enemies might attack him instead of someone who can kill on Enemy Phase, and he requires us to drag Rafiel up to his lair, let alone his presence in Endgame.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Anouleth

[nflchamp]

I'm ignoring Ilyana (T) vs. Leo. Sorry.

Good. Oliver has always been too high and should be below Meg - Meg at least has some minor utility in wall-thwacking and person-shoving and coin-looking-for, Oliver should never even be deployed. His mere recruitment in 4-4 is a negative since enemies might attack him instead of someone who can kill on Enemy Phase, and he requires us to drag Rafiel up to his lair, let alone his presence in Endgame.

I don't like Oliver down. I know he's always worse than Bastian because Bastian has 4-5, but he and Bastian are no different in Endgame. Heal, maybe spam some long-range tome. There really isn't much of a difference between them.

EDIT: Oh yeah, the other reason I wanted to post. Recruitment isn't a negative. Rafiel's going to be there anyways.

But, seriously, throw out this recruiting someone is difficult means someone is a negative idea.

Edited June 4, 2010 by nflchamp