OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

so, what, we've got three issues right now?

Oliver down to bottom (Bastian perhaps moving a bit, perhaps not)

Ilyana (T) > Leonardo (though how mag/skl/res are making the difference I don't know. Doesn't she out-damage him even without +2 mag?)

Nolan > Zihark. Jill to High and perhaps > Zihark. Zihark perhaps (but probably not due to too much protest) down to upper mid.

Anything I'm missing? It'll be interesting to see if enough discussion actually happens to do any of this, and to see what actually gets (somewhat) agreed upon.

[Dat Nick]

Even screwed/untrained Elincia is rivaling Oliver she has decent base magic, better speed, equal defence, and A staff, all she would need is paragon to be slapped on her. Canto moves her back to safety and like someone else said she can equip wyrmslayer and bless it then trade it to Ike for better results.

now we know why elincia is several tiers above oliver?

Astrid/Meg/Fiona are crappy units but they contribute to small things like rescuing/shoving/chipping/ledges/etc, and they do this free without taking a spot away from another character.

If you're going to justify idiots like Fiona/Meg being stupid on any chapter where she isn't optimal deployment (read, basically every chapter in part 1 minus endgame where theres room for everybody) I can easily justify Oliver being deployed in Endgame. Hell, would Lyre EVER see deployment outside of her one forced chapter?

I don't have any issue with Oliver dropping, but I stand by every word I've said that one use of physic is more useful than what people like Meg do, because even if Meg's contributions are "free", they're basically nonexistent.

Edited June 4, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[Florete]

Nolan > Zihark. Jill to High and perhaps > Zihark. Zihark perhaps (but probably not due to too much protest) down to upper mid.

Wait, what? Where did that come from?

[Colonel M]

Wait, what? Where did that come from?

It was hinted in the resource allocation topic. Furthermore... I don't disagree with Oliver in Bottom, but I believe some of the others should go down a bit too. They obviously don't have to reside in Bottom, but for example Renning is only "okay" in 4-E-1 and 4-E-3 he just blesses a Wyrmslayer for Ike. Oliver is just under a slippery slope passageway because, in order to contribute, he needs an Endgame slot dedicated to him. I can say that Meg shoving and Fiona helping in a Rescue Chain is far more sufficient than Oliver.

[Anouleth]

so, what, we've got three issues right now?

Oliver down to bottom (Bastian perhaps moving a bit, perhaps not)

Ilyana (T) > Leonardo (though how mag/skl/res are making the difference I don't know. Doesn't she out-damage him even without +2 mag?)

Nolan > Zihark. Jill to High and perhaps > Zihark. Zihark perhaps (but probably not due to too much protest) down to upper mid.

Anything I'm missing? It'll be interesting to see if enough discussion actually happens to do any of this, and to see what actually gets (somewhat) agreed upon.

Leonardo and Ilyana are a bit closer without the transfer. Possibly close enough that his availability trumps her.

But maybe Ilyana (n) could go above Leonardo too. The difference is mainly having to rely more on her forges, since generally she 2HKOes with them even without the transfers. If we're going to focus on Nolan/Jill for 3-6 and 3-13, he's highly superfluous anyway since we won't need him to manage a Ballista anyway.

[Interceptor]

Wait, what? Where did that come from?

Scandal! Red Fox tips her hand, and reveals that she does not religiously read the allocation topic! I'll import my reply to -Cynthia- into this thread, since it's sort of off-topic there anyway.

Isn't he, though? For all of Zihark's vaunted statistical advantages over Nolan, when push comes to shove in Part 3, Zihark fails in the clutch.

You know you keep saying this, but I'm not really seeing how 3-6 and 3-13 (Zihark is fine for 3-12) is any more important than any other chapter.

Under the assumption that we're ranking units based on their ability to play efficiently and save us turns, Zihark doesn't do anything exceptional in Part 3, aside from 3-12 perhaps. Chapter 3-13 presents us with an opportunity to score a huge wad of turn savings by killing Ike before Turn 12, but it's not an easy feat to accomplish, and it's something that Zihark doesn't really contribute towards. His durability is too poor for him to be used aggressively against the laguz, and he's not even particularly effective at killing Ike, either. Units like Jill, Nolan, and Volug are much better at setting this victory up than Zihark is, which is why I say he fails in the clutch. This is where we need good units, and he does not deliver.

I don't mind Nolan above Zihark (since he has 1-1 to 1-5 to his name), it's mainly things like Volug auto-top due to 3-6 and 3-13 that bother me. Volug's not even that good in these chapters (he still has to deal with gauge, can't toss things down ledges for 3-13, etc.) If he were ORKOing lots of things and getting killed in an obscene amount of rounds in return like the BK that would be one thing, but his #RKO numbers are only marginally better than people like Nolan, who can attack without getting countered and still ORKO with Beastfoe and other stuff like that.

I am not married to Volug in Top. I think that his specific utility (9MV even indoors, as an example) overcomes the mediocrity of his martial stats as compared to a big gun like Tauroneo, but I can see him going down. He's certainly going no lower than High, though. Even if Volug is not being used long-term, he's damned useful in 3-6 and 3-12, and if he's being used in long term, he can likely handle a lot of the same stuff than Nolan can, and even have a useful Part 4.

"There aren't that many characters to use" seems to contradict some people's opinion of how tier lists should be ordered. If Volug receives more credit for 3-6 and 3-13 because his competition doesn't do very well, Sothe should get even more for 1-2 to 1-5.

Sothe is already getting way too much credit for his early chapters, which are frankly the only chapters that are even keeping him in High to begin with. Consider the hilarity of his tier position right now (a touch below TOP TIER) if we only ranked him based on his performance in 1-6 to 4-E. Overshadowed by everyone and their mother in Part 1, where he starts out pretty good (knives in 1-6, yay) but slowly slides to merely "decent" (whoops, Tormod's here). Mediocre in Part 3, horrible in Part 4, and we wrap things up in Endgame where he's a (terrible) shove/rescue bot, finally ending the indignity of his existence when he's benched in late Endgame to free up a deployment slot for a Blood Tide.

[dondon151]

I am not married to Volug in Top. I think that his specific utility (9MV even indoors, as an example) overcomes the mediocrity of his martial stats as compared to a big gun like Tauroneo, but I can see him going down. He's certainly going no lower than High, though. Even if Volug is not being used long-term, he's damned useful in 3-6 and 3-12, and if he's being used in long term, he can likely handle a lot of the same stuff than Nolan can, and even have a useful Part 4.

Volug only needs like 2 spd procs to double every non-SM enemy in part 4, and with SS strike he's pretty close to ORKO. So it's almost like Ulki/Janaff level performance. He's not a good choice for 4-E, but 4-E is a small part of the game.

[RNG Princess]

I'm trying to explain Leonardo, Ilyana > Rolf

In Ike's team there are many characters joining and not enough space, Rolf is one of the unfortunate that is prone to get dumped, but so are Leo and Ilyana in a way. hmmm

Edited June 4, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Interceptor]

Volug only needs like 2 spd procs to double every non-SM enemy in part 4, and with SS strike he's pretty close to ORKO. So it's almost like Ulki/Janaff level performance. He's not a good choice for 4-E, but 4-E is a small part of the game.

That's fair enough, but what makes Ulki/Janaff pretty good are their RNG-proof bases, flying and Canto. Volug is no longer handicapped by lack of Laguz Stones once he gets to Part 4, and he can blast through the desert just like a flier, but he's not Cantoing anywhere, and his lack of 2-range is still a problem. That's why I call him "useful", since he's not really stacking up to the really badass units (beorcs or royals) that you have on your team.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Interceptor

[Fenrir]

I'm trying to explain Leonardo, Ilyana > Rolf

In Ike's team there are many characters joining and not enough space, Rolf is one of the unfortunate that is prone to get dumped, but so are Leo and Ilyana in a way. hmmm

i would agree with ilyana above rolf because of being a mule alone, rolf does nothing helpful on all of my PT except man a balista in 3-p

and i really like jill moving up and zihark down, jill is only flyer on DB zihark is frail and does nothing in Part 3 where jill accellsbeing the best cantidate to kill ike at 3-13, zihark always is second or 3rd best unit, tauroneo, maurim, vika, nailah, BK and tormod are as good or much much better. i dont think he belongs on same tier as nolan either, without nolan can you beat this game? probably not, it might be possible but he at least need to be meatshield on 1-1. and is extremely helpful on 1-2, 1-3 and 1-4. zihark is not on those stages joins at same time as jill who is actually really nice to have to take out the pegusi on 1-6 and can canto on later part of that stage.

Edited June 4, 2010 by King Soren

[-Cynthia-]

Ilyana doesn't really get mule credit because all you have to do is hand her items, Ilyana herself doesn't have to do anything.

Leonardo and Ilyana are better in comparison to the DB than Rolf is to the GMs, but Rolf has a much better chance for a decent Part 4 (and can probably beat Ilyana throughout Part 3 as well).

I'm not suggesting Volug move down past High of course, I'm even willing to say Volug>Sothe, just not a tier difference between them.

Diminishing Sothe's earlygame chapters because he's more necessary still seems kind of backwards to me. 1-2 to 1-4 > 3-6 and 3-13 IMO.

Edited June 4, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Fenrir]

Ilyana doesn't really get mule credit because all you have to do is hand her items, Ilyana herself doesn't have to do anything.

i think she gets mule credit because with a speedwing early haar becomes much much better(look at resource topic P3 tranfer stuff)rolf better in combat no doubt, i've taken both to endgame and ilyana was horrible rolf was decent, but using rolf is not smart because shinnon is much better and requires less training, even getting oscar to a classchange is better than using rolf if you want another bowman, of course oscar cannot use double bow but you can give it to shinnon and make him a friggin god for the endgame.

Edited June 4, 2010 by King Soren

[RNG Princess]

What about Oscar, Boyd and Aran? They all have doubling issues iirc, but Oscar is left behind in two chapters (the mountain and ulki/jannaf chapter). Aran is always contributing to the Dawn Brigade.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Fenrir]

What about Oscar, Boyd and Aran? They all have doubling issues iirc, but Oscar is left behind in two chapters (the mountain and ulki/jannaf chapter). Aran is always contributing to the Dawn Brigade.

i'd say oscar is too high beacuase horses are penalized so much in this game on sand they move slow no gaps so like in 3-4 like you said and in 3-7. i know alot of people dont think to highly of boyd but with a speedwing and/or a lil bexp he turns into an offensieve juggernaut ORKOing everything. aran on the other hand NEEDS a speedwing AND bexp to be used in P4 and some P3 chapters but hes the tankiest out of these three and is quite helpful to DB.

Edited June 4, 2010 by King Soren

[-Cynthia-]

i think she gets mule credit because with a speedwing early haar becomes much much better(look at resource topic P3 tranfer stuff)

There was some reading comprehension fail here. It isn't that Ilyana's carrying capabiltities aren't useful, it's that she doesn't have to do anything to use them. It's like crediting Fiona because we can take Savior and Imbue off of her (granted we have to take Ilyana to 1-E for the Speedwing, but she still just has to have an item handed to her).

rolf better in combat no doubt, i've taken both to endgame and ilyana was horrible rolf was decent

PEMN

but using rolf is not smart because shinnon is much better and requires less training, even getting oscar to a classchange is better than using rolf if you want another bowman, of course oscar cannot use double bow but you can give it to shinnon and make him a friggin god for the endgame.

Shinon being better than Rolf doesn't make Leonardo or Ilyana better than Rolf.

Horse issues are overblown. A lot of 3-4 doesn't involve gaps, so Oscar/Titania can still contribute. Being able to reach enemies doesn't actually matter on 3-7 because you can't clear the chapter faster either way, it just means your horse units get less Exp than most others.

Yes, horses suck in 4-3, but why are you putting Oscar on Micaiah's route in the first place?

Edited June 4, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Anouleth]

i think she gets mule credit because with a speedwing early haar becomes much much better(look at resource topic P3 tranfer stuff)rolf better in combat no doubt, i've taken both to endgame and ilyana was horrible rolf was decent, but using rolf is not smart because shinnon is much better and requires less training, even getting oscar to a classchange is better than using rolf if you want another bowman, of course oscar cannot use double bow but you can give it to shinnon and make him a friggin god for the endgame.

She doesn't get mule credit. All she gets out of it is free deployment in 1-E.

This is laid out in the tier list FAQ anyway, that characters don't get credit for inventory.

What about Oscar, Boyd and Aran? They all have doubling issues iirc, but Oscar is left behind in two chapters (the mountain and ulki/jannaf chapter). Aran is always contributing to the Dawn Brigade.

i'd say oscar is too high beacuase horses are penalized so much in this game on sand they move slow no gaps so like in 3-4 like you said and in 3-7. i know alot of people dont think to highly of boyd but with a speedwing and/or a lil bexp he turns into an offensieve juggernaut ORKOing everything. aran on the other hand NEEDS a speedwing AND bexp to be used in P4 and some P3 chapters but hes the tankiest out of these three and is quite helpful to DB.

No. The amount of speed you need to double in Part 3 ranges from 22 to 26, depending on what chapter and what enemy. Boyd needs four or five levels and the speedwing just to reach the lower end of that. Compare to Titania, who just needs the Speedwing to instantly go to 23 and has better strength anyway. Oscar can at least reach 24 fairly easily, but he needs a crown to get any further. And even if he has a disadvantage in a few chapters, in most chapters he runs rings around Boyd.

[Narga_Rocks]

Wait, what? Where did that come from?

I may as well post a link to where it starts in the other topic. All Interceptor said was which topic it came from.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=20544&view=findpost&p=1048025

Pretty much the entirety of page 8 (assuming 20 posts per page) is about Jill, Zihark, and Nolan. Well, a little bit of Haar and Volug, but whatever.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

I agree with Ilyana (T) > Leo and would liek to ask what Leonardo is doing that's puts him above Nasir that Ilyana isn't.

Oliver for bottom (perhaps bottom of bottom) due to 0 utility whatsoever, or no, even worse, negative utility for being deployed in the first place.

[Fenrir]

There was some reading comprehension fail here. It isn't that Ilyana's carrying capabiltities aren't useful, it's that she doesn't have to do anything to use them. It's like crediting Fiona because we can take Savior and Imbue off of her (granted we have to take Ilyana to 1-E for the Speedwing, but she still just has to have an item handed to her).

PEMN

Shinon being better than Rolf doesn't make Leonardo or Ilyana better than Rolf.

Horse issues are overblown. A lot of 3-4 doesn't involve gaps, so Oscar/Titania can still contribute. Being able to reach enemies doesn't actually matter on 3-7 because you can't clear the chapter faster either way, it just means your horse units get less Exp than most others.

Yes, horses suck in 4-3, but why are you putting Oscar on Micaiah's route in the first place?

ok sorry i didnt read that i still think ilyana is better than leo.

pemn and neither does caps or growths and more movement doesnt mean anything either.

and i thought you were talking about rolf???

well oscar is bad on hawk team with lots of thicket making him bad on two of three teams, so only team you can put oscar on is greil, titan will be there, and she generally has better caps/growths. versatility is nice to have IMO whereas aran or boyd can go anywhere. on 3-4 titan oscar dont slow you down, but they dont speed you up so its a net gain of zero to me, and i think you want to be getting something out of characters, same applies for 3-7

[Narga_Rocks]

I agree with Ilyana (T) > Leo and would liek to ask what Leonardo is doing that's puts him above Nasir that Ilyana isn't.

Oliver for bottom (perhaps bottom of bottom) due to 0 utility whatsoever, or no, even worse, negative utility for being deployed in the first place.

LYRE.

If we go to extremes with it, Lyre and Oliver both have 0 utility due to never getting deployed. Then you need a tiebreaker to place them. Doing that, you get Oliver > Lyre because using him hurts less (not just over time, but on a per chapter basis). But if we go to extremes with Oliver and Lyre then we'll need to make a lot more changes than just that.

I'm thinking top of bottom may be best for him. It's a balance between applying full opportunity cost for deployment and applying no opportunity cost for deployment.

[RNG Princess]

Astrid > Oliver though, she could be moved up one tier and be the bottom of it.

As for Ilyana you can give her a crown and she'll perform much better in 1-E.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[_____]

There is absolutely no reason to move Astrid out of Bottom.

[Interceptor]

I'm not suggesting Volug move down past High of course, I'm even willing to say Volug>Sothe, just not a tier difference between them.

To be honest, I don't really care too much about the difference between High and Top. Of all the tier breaks, it seems to matter the least. Top tier basically exists in order to to have somewhere to put Ike and Haar, as far as I am concerned. As long as Volug is up high somewhere, I am happy with it.

Diminishing Sothe's earlygame chapters because he's more necessary still seems kind of backwards to me. 1-2 to 1-4 > 3-6 and 3-13 IMO.

Right, but this is the Eddie Problem<tm>, where Eddie singlehandedly saves more turns in 1-P by existing than most of the characters in High tier right now. The big difference between 1-2/1-3 and 3-6/3-13 is that I can't actually pick who I want to use in the Part 1 chapters, whereas for Part 3 I have a wide range of choices (some are excellent, some are horrible) that are the result of earlier gameplay rather than the result of providence. Deployment is forced in Sothe's first couple of chapters, and you basically need everyone anyway. It seems pretty silly to me to paper over Sothe's later combat/utility prowess just because of circumstance.

Chapter 1-4 is a notable exception to this, though. Not only can you pick who you want to use, but you actually have some control over who gets what, where people start, etc. Sothe is a god in this chapter, and personally this is the map that I give him the most credit for.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Interceptor

[Shadow Mir]

*looks at Queen Elincia's comment*

No. You can't state a change and expect it to happen without backing it up. And I really fail to see why Astrid should be above Oliver.

[Interceptor]

Under the idea that the most effective way to use Oliver is to never use him at all, Astrid beats that shit just by potshotting enemies in 3-9, which is something that actually can potentially save turns (or make things less RNG-reliant). We don't have to use her after that.

Oliver is terrible even in his joining chapter.