OMG it's a tier list

[RNG Princess]

You have just given examples as to why Astrid is better than Meg and Fiona, two units she is already above. That has nothing to do with moving out of Bottom.

Astrid is the only character in 2-3 gaining plenty of experience, iirc she gains a similar amount of experience hitting an enemy than any of her partners do killing an enemy in 2-3. Giving her a level up or two in 2-3 can make her chipping a little more useful, this isn't as negative as giving other bottom tier characters kills/experience because she can put that experience to better use without affecting other characters too much (they aren't gaining that much exp) while having decent hit, and canto.

So I suggested that Astrid being better at fighting and easier to train would qualify her to move her up a tier.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Anouleth]

2-3 is enough of a pain without having to baby Astrid. If it were that easy, people would do it, as it is, Astrid has horrid durability and can't kill anything on her own in that chapter. Even if she gained two levels, that's +1 strength. Woohoo? All it means is that her chip damage in 3-9 is sliiiiiightly less pathetic.

And let's clarify - Astrid isn't easier to train. If we really wanted to train her seriously, we would be in for an ordeal. Being able to pick up a few kills in 2-3 and possibly an entire level up is not on the same level.

[_____]

It would probably be more prudent for you to compare Astrid to Pelleas, not Fiona and Meg.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Ninji

[RNG Princess]

2-3 is enough of a pain without having to baby Astrid. If it were that easy, people would do it, as it is, Astrid has horrid durability and can't kill anything on her own in that chapter. Even if she gained two levels, that's +1 strength. Woohoo? All it means is that her chip damage in 3-9 is sliiiiiightly less pathetic.

And let's clarify - Astrid isn't easier to train. If we really wanted to train her seriously, we would be in for an ordeal. Being able to pick up a few kills in 2-3 and possibly an entire level up is not on the same level.

I'm on that map right now :) The only pain I find myself in is the boss himself and that cavalier with the horseslayer (killed my Geoffrey several times :()<- but then I had Marcia horseslayer the jerk :D

I know she can't kill anything herself but neither can Makalov or Devdan iirc unless he's landing a crit. I suggest if possible to have makalov weaken an enemy and have Astrid take the kill.

Maybe I should record myself playing on the map to describe it better, but Astrid is hardly facing danger if used efficiently compared to the others in bottom tier.

Chipping slightly less pathetic is still helpful.

She is easier to train compared to others in bottom tier <- and so I thought it would be a good reason to have her move up to Low tier as well for other reasons.

Top of Bottom, bottom of Low not too much a difference really but there should be a good reason/difference as to why the lowest of low tier is not considered for bottom tier.

Pelleas can do healing for a chapter, I think that is the reason he is not in bottom tier.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[nflchamp]

Why do I care that Lyre can shovebot? Don't we have people that are better at combat if the need arises and can play shovebot?

EDIT:

She is easier to train compared to others in bottom tier

Hence why she's above them. The fact of the matter is her performance isn't any better than theirs even if she's "easier to train".

Edited June 4, 2010 by nflchamp

[Anouleth]

And we don't get any benefit from training her other than increasing her chip damage for one chapter. There's no inherent advantage to being able to level up once or twice. Even if Astrid can be trained in 2-3 without slowing us down, unless that translates into useful stat gains, there's no point.

Astrid isn't at the top of bottom tier because she's 'easier to train'. It's because she contributes chip damage in 3-9.

[RNG Princess]

And we don't get any benefit from training her other than increasing her chip damage for one chapter. There's no inherent advantage to being able to level up once or twice. Even if Astrid can be trained in 2-3 without slowing us down, unless that translates into useful stat gains, there's no point.

Astrid isn't at the top of bottom tier because she's 'easier to train'. It's because she contributes chip damage in 3-9.

Isn't that a good thing anyway? She's chipping even better for 3-9 ( a chapter where mostly everyone is chipping iirc) if being trained a little in 2-3, similar to Pelleas being able to heal for one/two chapter(s), and she's the easiest to train of the bottom tier. Wouldn't that be a few reasons to consider her to move up a tier?

I see your point though, and in a way she can be a tier above as seen in this tier list.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[grandjackal]

Why do I care that Lyre can shovebot? Don't we have people that are better at combat if the need arises and can play shovebot?

I would suppose a "how many units are we really using seriously?" argument to come out of this, but I still wouldn't see that as an excuse to field Lyre.

[Anouleth]

@Queen Elincia

Pelleas still does way more damage than Astrid and can potentially heal. Her measly +1 strength that she might not even proc does not even begin to make up for the gap.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Anouleth

[RNG Princess]

@Queen Elincia

Pelleas still does way more damage than Astrid and can potentially heal. Her measly +1 strength that she might not even proc does not even begin to make up for the gap.

He does more damage but his hit is not all that great and he arrives two turns later. The better thing about him is if he is crowned he gains B rank in staff and be traded a physic staff.

Unlike Pelleas team, Astrid's team in 3-9 can't double/kill reliable iirc (someone prove me wrong if I'm not right about this statement) so her chipping is being helpful here. I'm not disagreeing Pelleas healing > Astrid's chipping, I'm only stating they are both helping out in different areas that other bottom tier characters can't do reliably.

BTW like I said for Micaiah in endgame, thanks to the heron Elincia can be her first and back up healer in a same phase (4-2)

Edited June 4, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Interceptor]

Maybe I should record myself playing on the map to describe it better, but Astrid is hardly facing danger if used efficiently compared to the others in bottom tier.

It's not really hard to train Astrid, it just takes too long. I don't know how fast you are going in 2-3, but an efficient clear for me usually involves Geoffrey pulling his lance out of Tashoria's ugly face on or about Turn 5, and sending the Speedwing to the convoy. Even if I pulled away Danved and Makalov to weaken things for her (which might slow progress to the Seize tile), Astrid can't counter anything so she's only looking at a handful of kills even in the best case scenario.

And a level or two on Astrid is not going to make a difference.

[RNG Princess]

It's not really hard to train Astrid, it just takes too long. I don't know how fast you are going in 2-3, but an efficient clear for me usually involves Geoffrey pulling his lance out of Tashoria's ugly face on or about Turn 5, and sending the Speedwing to the convoy. Even if I pulled away Danved and Makalov to weaken things for her (which might slow progress to the Seize tile), Astrid can't counter anything so she's only looking at a handful of kills even in the best case scenario.

And a level or two on Astrid is not going to make a difference.

Theres a difference there I know for sure I take longer than 5 turns (i'll count how many turns I take when I finish the chapter)

Is that considered unefficient?

I let Marcia take the boss kill ;) because I assume she is giving me the most in return.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Interceptor]

I would say that going slower than Turn 6 is really pushing it in terms of efficient completion. Sure, you can get punked by the RNG and whatnot, which means you take longer, but Geoff can easily be on the Arms Scroll square by Turn 2, which is halfway there. You just need to take out the Horseslayer guy (Marcia is excellent for this, as you pointed out), and plow your way through the other enemies.

Generally I feel that giving Geoff the boss kill is the best way to go, only because of the chance that he gains +1 STR on a level-up (it helps him). Marcia might be good as well, I am not sure, it depends on how the enemies look in 3-9 and how she did in 2-P.

[Peachy]

2-3 has a limit of 11 turns for max turn BEXP. I don't think efficiency means low turn counts or low time. So I think getting within in 11 turns for max turn BEXP should be fine.

[Colonel M]

To be honest, I agree with nflchamp. Oliver shouldn't be the only unit punished here. We have:

- Stefan

- Volke

- Renning

- Pelleas

These 4 units should also seek punishment. Here's the deal. Stefan needs 3 Spd procs to double Auras. Volke needs 4. Renning is hopeless. Pelleas... well you get the goddamn picture there. I have 9 slots to consider. If I'm choosing units, I want them to be able to contribute from the very beginning to the end. I don't want "filler" units on my Endgame team. Suffice to say, these guys just don't cut it. Renning is only "good" for 4-E-1 and 4-E-3's clear. There's nothing else that makes him useful, and 4-E-3 he's only fulfilling your blessed Wyrmslayer to 1 Turn Dheginsia. Elincia is arguably better to deploy than Renning even if Elincia is at a disadvantage clearing Generals in 4-E-1. Why should I field any of these 3 over a Laguz Royal who can at least guarantee me some leverage in Endgame. Cain is the only royal that should have issues doubling Auras. If you DO reserve a Speedwing for him, he obviously solves this issue. Though he has other things that sort of make up for it (single heavy hits, etc).

I don't see Lehran contributing a whole lot either, but I won't say anything. If Pelleas isn't Bottom, he should definitely be there.

To give you an idea where everyone was:

Lower Middle (14)

Geoffrey (N/T - Spd)

Edward

Lucia (N/T)

Volke (N/T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Stefan (N/T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Tormod (N/T)

Rolf

Leonardo

Nealuchi

Nasir

Ilyana (N/T - Mag, Skl, Res)

Ena

Sigrun

Makalov

Danved (N/T - Str)

Vika

Low (10) (T-1)

Kurthnaga

Lethe (N/T)

Renning

Gareth

Sanaki

Bastian (N/T - Str)

Lehran

Oliver

Kyza

Astrid (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Pelleas

Bottom (4)

Astrid

Meg

Fiona

Lyre

Edited June 5, 2010 by Colonel M

[Shadow Mir]

To be honest, I agree with nflchamp. Oliver shouldn't be the only unit punished here. We have:

- Stefan

- Volke

- Renning

- Pelleas

These 4 units should also seek punishment. Here's the deal. Stefan needs 3 Spd procs to double Auras. Volke needs 4. Renning is hopeless. Pelleas... well you get the goddamn picture there. I have 9 slots to consider. If I'm choosing units, I want them to be able to contribute from the very beginning to the end. I don't want "filler" units on my Endgame team. Suffice to say, these guys just don't cut it. Renning is only "good" for 4-E-1 and 4-E-3's clear. There's nothing else that makes him useful, and 4-E-3 he's only fulfilling your blessed Wyrmslayer to 1 Turn Dheginsia. Elincia is arguably better to deploy than Renning even if Elincia is at a disadvantage clearing Generals in 4-E-1. Why should I field any of these 3 over a Laguz Royal who can at least guarantee me some leverage in Endgame. Cain is the only royal that should have issues doubling Auras. If you DO reserve a Speedwing for him, he obviously solves this issue. Though he has other things that sort of make up for it (single heavy hits, etc).

I don't see Lehran contributing a whole lot either, but I won't say anything. If Pelleas isn't Bottom, he should definitely be there.

I agree. On average, Stefan needs 5 level ups to double auras. Volke needs 6. I can safely say that isn't happening. Also, Nailah isn't doubling auras unless she gets speed on a level up (and with a 20% growth, that's pretty iffy).

[Interceptor]

Stefan is fine. A base SPD of 36 is good enough for fighting in 1-Endgame (where you can give him Paragon, since nobody else at this point is going to really want it), and he'll get some kills there. He can take a freebie kill in 4-E-2 (not part of the clear), another one in 4-E-3 (same deal), and I guess he can kill a spirit in E-4 if you don't need him.

When 4-Endgame-5 lands, whatever he has left to go for SPD, just throw some BEXP on him. SPD is tiegame for his highest stat, and there's a good chance that he's capped HP and/or SKL (especially if you saved him a Secret Book). That's good enough for aura fighting.

[Soren37]

But what about Stefan's durability? Yes he'll have 91 base Avoid, but with Ashera pulling out 65-67 Mt attacks with a 220 Hit, that's a 100% chance to hit Stefan for anywhere between 41 Physical damage to 33 Magical Damage.

And that's at Level 20 right beside Ashera.

It's safe to say that he's only good for taking out Spirits, as if Ashera attacks Stefan, he'll be left with 14-22 HP, meaning you better have a lot of Physics or Ashera Staves.

And that's including her all-range attacks.

Against the auras, unless you have Parity or Nihil on him, he'll do 52 base damage (if the auras have 0 defense), and receive 26 of it back, dropping him to 29 HP. Do you really want to have a unit made out of paper?

[Interceptor]

The only place where I am worried about Stefan's durability is in 4-E-1. After that, it's a non-issue. Ashera is never going to get a chance to attack Stefan, except with her Turn 1 AOE attack (which he can easily survive), because before the end of Turn 2 Player Phase, she's going to be worm food.

About the auras, it's true that he'll need Parity, but that works out just fine, since Parity allows him to ignore map tiles. That means that the Cover squares that the corner auras are sitting on will not give them the +DEF that they would normally have, and Stefan does not need a Tide from Nasir in order to double. It just so happens to work out that Tibarn + Stefan can perfectly combo to kill an aura, so long as Stefan gets +2 STR (or if Tibarn gets +1), which is entirely reasonable.

So, I am fine with Stefan's durability as a filler unit.

[Soren37]

Eh. It's a bit worrisome for me, but then again, personal preference.

[RNG Princess]

I just realized there are 6 available master seals in Part 1 (1-4, 1-5, 1-6b, 1-7, 1-9, and 1-E) the last two are bargains.

There are 5 master crowns prior to Pelleas's recruitment (3-3, 3-6, 3-9, 3-11, 3-12, and 4-P).

The 4 free master seals best candidates are Jill, Nolan, Aran, Edward correct? The other possible candidates are Meg, Leo, Ilyana, and Fiona. Wouldn't it be right to buy one for Ilyana or give her Edwards?. You are bringing her to 1-E to transfer that speedwing after all or would it be considered a complete loss? Would buying the last one for Leo be a loss?

As for the Master crowns the best candidates I assume would be Titania, Haar, Mia, Gatrie, Nephenee, Shinnon but there is a large range of characters who can use it. Would it be a complete loss if Pelleas would take one of theirs?

*oh I forgot 4-Ps crown is only for japanese version

what I'm figuring is that Pelleas belongs in bottom tier and Ilyana > Leonardo > Rolf

Edited June 5, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

I just realized there are 6 available master seals in Part 1 (1-4, 1-5, 1-6b, 1-7, 1-9, and 1-E) the last two are bargains.

There are 5 master crowns prior to Pelleas's recruitment (3-3, 3-6, 3-9, 3-11, 3-12, and 4-P).

The 4 free master seals best candidates are Jill, Nolan, Aran, Edward correct? The other possible candidates are Meg, Leo, Ilyana, and Fiona. Wouldn't it be right to buy one for Ilyana or give her Edwards?. You are bringing her to 1-E to transfer that speedwing after all or would it be considered a complete loss?

As for the Master crowns the best candidates I assume would be Titania, Haar, Mia, Gatrie, Nephenee, Shinnon but there is a large range of characters who can use it. Would it be a complete loss if Pelleas would take one of theirs?

*oh I forgot 4-Ps crown is only for japanese version

what I'm figuring is that Pelleas belongs in bottom tier and Ilyana > Leonardo > Rolf

WRT master seals, I'm not seeing Edward as a good master seal candidate. And I fail to see why you bothered to mention Fiona and Meg.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[RNG Princess]

WRT master seals, I'm not seeing Edward as a good master seal candidate. And I fail to see why you bothered to mention Fiona and Meg.

Well they are candidates because they can use it, doesn't mean they deserve it ;)

[Shadow Mir]

Well they are candidates because they can use it, doesn't mean they deserve it ;)

Really? Because the chance that Meg ever gets to a high enough level to use it is next to zero. And Fiona's not very likely to get it either, so you might as well have left them off the master seal candidate list.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[RNG Princess]

Really? Because the chance that Meg ever gets to a high enough level to use it is next to zero. And Fiona's not very likely to get it either, so you might as well have left them off the master seal condidate list.

It means nothing though they're just a few other characters who can use it, and Fiona can get BEXP 1 level and use one although thats not going to happen like you said. There is a reason as to why I said they were possible candidates not the best candidates.