OMG it's a tier list

[-Cynthia-]

Pelleas should stay out of Bottom IMO. He's free deployment on 4-2 and makes decent potshots (generally around 2HKOing IIRC) and can pull shenanigans like Dragonfoe+Fenrir on 4-5. If we crown him, we can get an instant Physic bot because he gets weirdly high staff rank on promotion. He's not a very good unit, but he can do some stuff.

[grandjackal]

It means nothing though they're just a few other characters who can use it, and Fiona can get BEXP 1 level and use one although thats not going to happen like you said. There is a reason as to why I said they were possible candidates not the best candidates.

That doesn't really matter when she's not paying up the expense. You're downing BEXP on a unit with utter crap bases just to master seal it, and even still she still wouldn't turn out to even half-decent.

That BEXP is also in rare supply for the DB, and it costs her a pretty amount of BEXP to level her up (900 BEXP down the shitter). They'd appreciate it if it went to units to help them kick ass in part 3 rather than be wasted hilariously on the alien girl with the horse.

[Dat Nick]

Frankly, I think kirshce needs to be a little more consistent. If Oliver never makes it to Endgame because we have better options, why would I even LOOK at Lyre at any point of the game, regardless of how many deployment slots I have? Unless there's some chapter with 50 deployment slots I'm not aware of, there's always someone better to take her place. Someone MUCH better. Lyre has shoving in one chapter in a chapter where I hardly see how it does much. You may as well just argue kamikaze utility for her, it's not like your life means anything when all you're doing is shoving.

I'll be perfectly honest, I'd RATHER replace somebody endgame with Oliver than replace anybody with Lyre for even one chapter. At least Oliver is capable of doing SOMETHING. Lyre can't heal, she can't fight, she can't take a hit, but she's a 9 MV Unit with shove, she's totally contributing something worthwhile, right?

So yeah, can we please go one way or the other when tiering units? Are inferior units punished for screwing up Optimal Deployment, or aren't they? You can't just pick and choose which units get penalized for it, and availability is a lame justification.

Also, black is being an alien? Why so racist?

Edited June 5, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[grandjackal]

Also, black is being an alien? Why so racist?

Fiona's black?

[Anouleth]

To be honest, I agree with nflchamp. Oliver shouldn't be the only unit punished here. We have:

- Stefan

- Volke

- Renning

- Pelleas

These 4 units should also seek punishment. Here's the deal. Stefan needs 3 Spd procs to double Auras. Volke needs 4. Renning is hopeless. Pelleas... well you get the goddamn picture there. I have 9 slots to consider. If I'm choosing units, I want them to be able to contribute from the very beginning to the end. I don't want "filler" units on my Endgame team. Suffice to say, these guys just don't cut it. Renning is only "good" for 4-E-1 and 4-E-3's clear. There's nothing else that makes him useful, and 4-E-3 he's only fulfilling your blessed Wyrmslayer to 1 Turn Dheginsia. Elincia is arguably better to deploy than Renning even if Elincia is at a disadvantage clearing Generals in 4-E-1. Why should I field any of these 3 over a Laguz Royal who can at least guarantee me some leverage in Endgame. Cain is the only royal that should have issues doubling Auras. If you DO reserve a Speedwing for him, he obviously solves this issue. Though he has other things that sort of make up for it (single heavy hits, etc).

I don't see Lehran contributing a whole lot either, but I won't say anything. If Pelleas isn't Bottom, he should definitely be there.

To give you an idea where everyone was:

Renning can use a Hammer in 4-E-1, and he doubles a handful of the very slowest Generals (Axe Generals mainly). Some combination of Dracoshield and Secret Book can easily cap his SKL/DEF after a level of BEXP, leaving SPD as his 2nd highest growth (tied with HP but BEXP prioritises speed over hp anyway), so another level could give him 30SPD which doubles most Generals. It's pricy, though, more than 5500BEXP. But it's better than Stefan.

4-E-3, Renning can bless a Wyrmslayer. 4-E-4, he can 1-round a Spirit with a Brave Axe. 4-E-5... Brave Axe and two Tides is still only 54ATK, assuming 33STR. 2HKOes Auras, but barely. Shitty accuracy, too. But then again, is lugging Renning to 4-E-5 actually going to push you over into three turns? I doubt it.

[Zkirsche]

Frankly, I think kirshce needs to be a little more consistent. If Oliver never makes it to Endgame because we have better options, why would I even LOOK at Lyre at any point of the game, regardless of how many deployment slots I have? Unless there's some chapter with 50 deployment slots I'm not aware of, there's always someone better to take her place. Someone MUCH better. Lyre has shoving in one chapter in a chapter where I hardly see how it does much. You may as well just argue kamikaze utility for her, it's not like your life means anything when all you're doing is shoving.

Did you even read what I posted? Well, clearly not, as I did actually argue kamikaze utility. We do not want too many major combat units so really what the others do is superfluous. Why don't you read my entire post instead of just 1 line or something.

[Dat Nick]

k

Now explain to me how much Lyre kamikazing is actually worth (because on a unit with crap offense and crap defense...)

Furthermore, I never said you didn't say she didn't have kamikaze utility, because that wasn't the part of your post I had an issue with.

[Zkirsche]

Now explain to me how much Lyre kamikazing is actually worth (because on a unit with crap offense and crap defense...)

It doesn't matter how much it is worth, all she needs is it to be worth something as Oliver does fuck all in the chapters he's available in.

Furthermore, I never said you didn't say she didn't have kamikaze utility, because that wasn't the part of your post I had an issue with.

Well, the way you worded it implied it "you may as well" :/

Whatever.

[Anouleth]

Other units still kamikaze better than Lyre. I'd rather kamikaze with Kyza or something, since he takes longer to untransform and die and he has better attack.

[Dat Nick]

It doesn't matter how much it is worth, all she needs is it to be worth something as Oliver does fuck all in the chapters he's available in.

That isn't the point, even if what Oliver does comes at an opportunity cost it's still better than being dumbshit useless for free for a (extremely brief) period of time.

[Interceptor]

The 4 free master seals best candidates are Jill, Nolan, Aran, Edward correct? The other possible candidates are Meg, Leo, Ilyana, and Fiona. Wouldn't it be right to buy one for Ilyana or give her Edwards?.

One for Ilyana, two for potential tier 1 units that you're using seriously, and I'd say save one for Laura. You can't really seriously train more units than that, so I think the four findable Seals would be enough for everything. A seal'ed Fiona would be less bad, but it'd cost you for it and the deployment slots are too precious in 1-8 and 1-E to use on her.

As for the Master crowns the best candidates I assume would be Titania, Haar, Mia, Gatrie, Nephenee, Shinnon but there is a large range of characters who can use it. Would it be a complete loss if Pelleas would take one of theirs?

Master crowns are less of a big deal than the Seals, since there is more time to raise your tier 2 units, although it's still nice to save 100 EXP if you can. There are some units that want to early-crown, like Gatrie, Haar, or Titania (if they cap SPD); perhaps a BEXP-abused Mia that capped STR. You'll want to use at least one of the DB's crowns on the DB, most likely, such as if you're going for the 3-13 Ike kill clear.

The contribution of Pelleas as a promoted unit is pretty lame, I am not sure that it's worth sitting on a Crown just to get whatever he gives you.

what I'm figuring is that Pelleas belongs in bottom tier and Ilyana > Leonardo > Rolf

Not sure that he belongs in Bottom. He is not salvageable as a primary combatant, but he's also not as bad as Lyre or Fiona. He is, I guess, doing about the same thing that Astrid is doing in 3-9, except he does a lot more damage.

[Zkirsche]

That isn't the point, even if what Oliver does comes at an opportunity cost it's still better than being dumbshit useless for free for a (extremely brief) period of time.

No because what Oliver does is a net negative - utility. What Lyre does is a net positive. + > -, thus Lyre better than Oliver.

Other units still kamikaze better than Lyre. I'd rather kamikaze with Kyza or something, since he takes longer to untransform and die and he has better attack.

Even if we had 1 kamikaze unit per chapter, we only have so many scrub units before Lyre is put there.

[Shadow Mir]

No because what Oliver does is a net negative - utility. What Lyre does is a net positive. + > -, thus Lyre better than Oliver.

What exactly is Lyre doing that warrants her being above Oliver?

[nflchamp]

No because what Oliver does is a net negative - utility. What Lyre does is a net positive. + > -, thus Lyre better than Oliver.

No, she's not. She has no free chapters. Doing dumb shit in a chapter (anything) requires her to kick out someone else who can do it better. She is a net negative no matter how you try to spin it.

[Zkirsche]

You two, go back and read everything I've posted and comment against it.

Thank you.

[Shadow Mir]

You two, go back and read everything I've posted and comment against it.

Thank you.

And you need to ditch whatever double standard you're using that penalizes Oliver, yet lets Lyre off scot-free. Also, you used a chapter with a high deployment limit to supplement your argument - bias much?

Edited June 5, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Zkirsche]

And you need to ditch whatever double standard you're using that penalizes Oliver, yet lets Lyre off scot-free. Also, you used a chapter with a high deployment limit to supplement your argument - bias much?

You're still doing it, here, I'll hold your hand for you, shall I?

eh, 1 chapter is all it takes.

It's all mostly superfluous, really. Most of the people you'd want to shove (soren, Mist + rofl) all have low wt anyway.

I'm not going to repeat myself again.

[Shadow Mir]

But if I wanted to field someone for shovebotting, why would I field Lyre? I'd much rather field someone who doesn't have to grass every other turn, and that aspect is what makes Lyre a bad choice for shovebotting.

[Colonel M]

Renning can use a Hammer in 4-E-1, and he doubles a handful of the very slowest Generals (Axe Generals mainly). Some combination of Dracoshield and Secret Book can easily cap his SKL/DEF after a level of BEXP, leaving SPD as his 2nd highest growth (tied with HP but BEXP prioritises speed over hp anyway), so another level could give him 30SPD which doubles most Generals. It's pricy, though, more than 5500BEXP. But it's better than Stefan.

4-E-3, Renning can bless a Wyrmslayer. 4-E-4, he can 1-round a Spirit with a Brave Axe. 4-E-5... Brave Axe and two Tides is still only 54ATK, assuming 33STR. 2HKOes Auras, but barely. Shitty accuracy, too. But then again, is lugging Renning to 4-E-5 actually going to push you over into three turns? I doubt it.

Here's the problem: You're already running out of ideas what to do with Renning after 4-E-1 aside from blessing a Wyrmslayer. Here's the point I'm trying to make: in order to be deployed, you have to be useful in all 5 parts of Endgame. That includes doubling Auras in 4-E-5 without a Brave Axe. Again, here's the point I'm trying to make: why am I fielding Renning over a Royal? Royals can nearly ORKO the Generals anyway (activation skills help this a lot), 2 of them can Canto to make Blood Tide abuses easier, and some have a sick amount of power to the point where I'd say it's too optimal to not deploy them (Giffca has Speed and hits like a semi truck against a lot of the enemies).

Here's what I'd say your optimal 9 are. They can obviously switch around a bit, but here:

- Trained Nolan

- Trained Jill

- Trained Nephenee

- Mia

- Zihark (if bothered)

- Elincia (she heals and blesses a Wyrmslayer)

- Shinon

- Tibarn

- Naesala

- Nailah

- Giffca

Cain is iffy, but I'd include him I guess. Some of them have certain requirements; such as putting effort in the DB to yield 2 powerhouses, but I feel it's worth it. Tell me the last time you've ever put Renning, for example, in your Endgame team over one of these guys. I can understand Stefan a little more than Renning, though I still question Stefan since he still does need some watching out with Paragon. It more or less depends on his EXP gains after beating an enemy.

If we also get nitpicky with the Hammer, I could field Titania instead, who's likely got 30 Spd if you slowplay BEXP and given her the Speedwing anyway.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Colonel M

[Fenrir]

why would you try to say lyre is good at shovebotting? i can put in ulki, janaff, or ranulf and if something pops up where i need to hit like a few hp so i can finish and give someone a level ranulf and the hawks do just that and they can also play shovebot, lyre just dies and shovebots but shovebotting is something any laguz can do well so it doesnt move you up a tier IMO.

im about to do 3-10 lets see i can take janaff and ulki? no i'll take lyre and lethe since they're both shit and help less but i just want to take them because of personal bias against awesome hawks.

Oliver is much better than lyre because he can at least heal.

astrid can actually do chipdamage

pelleas is nice to kill dragons with d-foe + fenrir,(usually ORKO) and once again can heal and on 4-2 he is free and is chip damage which i would say is better than a none free unit that can only shove.

[Anouleth]

Here's the problem: You're already running out of ideas what to do with Renning after 4-E-1 aside from blessing a Wyrmslayer. Here's the point I'm trying to make: in order to be deployed, you have to be useful in all 5 parts of Endgame. That includes doubling Auras in 4-E-5 without a Brave Axe. Again, here's the point I'm trying to make: why am I fielding Renning over a Royal? Royals can nearly ORKO the Generals anyway (activation skills help this a lot), 2 of them can Canto to make Blood Tide abuses easier, and some have a sick amount of power to the point where I'd say it's too optimal to not deploy them (Giffca has Speed and hits like a semi truck against a lot of the enemies).

Here's what I'd say your optimal 9 are. They can obviously switch around a bit, but here:

- Trained Nolan

- Trained Jill

- Trained Nephenee

- Mia

- Zihark (if bothered)

- Elincia (she heals and blesses a Wyrmslayer)

- Shinon

- Tibarn

- Naesala

- Nailah

- Giffca

Cain is iffy, but I'd include him I guess. Some of them have certain requirements; such as putting effort in the DB to yield 2 powerhouses, but I feel it's worth it. Tell me the last time you've ever put Renning, for example, in your Endgame team over one of these guys. I can understand Stefan a little more than Renning, though I still question Stefan since he still does need some watching out with Paragon. It more or less depends on his EXP gains after beating an enemy.

If we also get nitpicky with the Hammer, I could field Titania instead, who's likely got 30 Spd if you slowplay BEXP and given her the Speedwing anyway.

So? Obviously we won't ditch a Royal in order to field Renning. We'd ditch a beorc. And yes, many beorc are better. So? A team that fields Renning instead of Nephenee or someone can likely still beat Endgame in 8 turns or whatever the 'par time' is, since the difference isn't that great.

The fact is that many characters - most, even, simply aren't useful in sections of Endgame. 4-E-2 is beaten by Ike, 4-E-3 and 4-E-4 are dominated by high movement units that can beat those chapters on turn one. 4-E-5 is very difficult to beat in one turn and easy to beat in less than three turns.

[Interceptor]

Giffca is a little bit better than Cain (ho-lee crap if you ever manage to get +2 SPD on Giffca), but they are both worth bringing to Endgame. All of the royals are, in fact, even Naesala with S-rank Strike.

By the way, there are ten optional slots, not nine. Also, if you're going to bring someone to Endgame who is decent in 4-E-1 but fairly useless in 4-E-5, you might as well bring Haar, not Renning. Haar can't really do much to auras, but he's murder in that first Rout map, especially if he manages to not get SPD-screwed in tier 3.

[Zkirsche]

But if I wanted to field someone for shovebotting, why would I field Lyre? I'd much rather field someone who doesn't have to grass every other turn, and that aspect is what makes Lyre a bad choice for shovebotting.

How many times do you think we'll need a shove bot in 1 chapter? Few enougth for Lyre to stay untransformed and transform when needed.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

Haar can use the Brave Axe on auras, which isn't terrible because he's probably capped Str.

Considering we actually do have to field Lyre for Shoving potential makes it not very good. We could field untrained Boyd or Lethe or something instead and still have a better unit. Meg and Fiona have the excuse of being irreplacable in some chapters, Lyre does not.

[Zkirsche]

That depends on who they can shove that Lyre can't, otherwise it's superfluous.