OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

Which, in this case, should likely assume if they are being deployed, as I believe that was RFOF's intentions.

[dondon151]

Oliver is in a different situation to Renning because no matter who you've trained or how screwed they've been, he is still 12th or 13th in line for an Endgame slot, while Renning is arguably 10th. I can easily see dondon deploying Renning in his 0% growths run, but not Oliver.

I'm not sure; let's see. You have 10 free slots in 4-E. 4 of them will be going to Nailah, Naesala, Tibarn, Caineghis. 3 more will be Giffca, Janaff, Ulki. I'll probably bring Skrimir as well since he doubles all but snipers and a few sword generals in 4-E-1 with a Speedwings (and with 59 atk after SS strike, ORKOs them all... of course, he needs to get to SS in the first place). That leaves 2 slots. I'll probably reserve Elincia and Mist for them so I can have 2 reliable staff users (have 9 move and canto, which is perfect for using Rescue).

I suppose Renning would be close. After all, 4-E-1 is where it matters. But I would honestly just stack my team full of laguz and 2 staff users and be done with it. If you weren't limited to 40 total uses of Hammer throughout the whole game, and if Renning had 1 more base AS, he would be ideal for endgame.

[RNG Princess]

I'm really not sure about how they would perfom in endgame (Volke/Renning/Stefan) but I'm pretty sure that a hammer on Renning helps me save more turns than Oliver, and he has canto to help accomodate easier for the heron to refresh. As for Meg/Astrid/Fiona > Renning/Volke/Stefan I really haven't considered it but I'm leaning more on the side that Fiona's contributions are less than Volke or Stefan.

What I was indicating was the weight of character contribution, this especially applies to Meg. Her contributions are of small value but they help save turns for free during many chapters like shoving around, finding items like master seal, blocking ledges, and even having support another scrub or using the torch item on 3-6. These tasks help my team by having my fighters focus on battle instead of wasting their precious time on these tasks, where as Oliver's healing is appreciated but its not helping me rout out enemies any faster or clearing the auras (which Micaiah isn't doing either), and his deployment isn't free since there are other possible options.

Perhaps my logic is flawed.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Interceptor]

Stefan is not bad in Endgame; I don't understand the hate. He's perfectly fine in 4-E-1, for starters, all that you need to do is give him Paragon or something in order to build up his STR/SPD for corner-killing in 4-E-5. If your Trueblade got RNG-screwed, or you didn't bring one at all, he fills the role nicely. Stefan ought to get recognition for that.

This is in clear contrast to a unit like Oliver, whom you'd never bring in any circumstance that I can think of.

[Rewjeo]

Meg and Fiona have lots of free deployment. Lower Mid plox./sarcasm

If they're where the are now, we're clearly assuming that units aren't punished much for being used. Otherwise Fiona and Meg and their huge number of free slots would put them much higher than they are now.

[Narga_Rocks]

Meg and Fiona have lots of free deployment. Lower Mid plox./sarcasm

And since most would find no point in arguing in a list that results in something like that, I think it's fine to not bother with total optimal deployment. Granted, I'm not 100% certain that they'd reach lower mid if we went that route. In this game there aren't actually very many units that don't get at least 2 free chapters of deployment. Volke, stefan, and Renning may nose-dive, but Meg and Fiona would probably not get out of low.

Anyway,

If they're where the are now, we're clearly assuming that units aren't punished much for being used. Otherwise Fiona and Meg and their huge number of free slots would put them much higher than they are now.

this is pretty much why Fiona > Oliver isn't happening. I said before that Oliver could perhaps drop to bottom given how little he actually does in endgame (particularly if you are taking 5 total for the last 4 parts of endgame) and how little we want him there, but dropping below the other units without making many many other changes to the list isn't happening.

[Anouleth]

Virtually every character in the game has some opportunity to take advantage of free slots. Edward has his own slot until Chapter 1-7, for example. Ena has to fight for a slot, but she's clearly better than Sothe or Kurthnaga for taking it. Even Pelleas has free deployment. What puts these characters above Meg/Fiona is that they're actually useful with these slots. In fact, Fiona only has three slots she doesn't have to fight for, all in Part 3. That's the same as Lucia, for example, except that Lucia isn't unusably bad in her three chapters.

[Narga_Rocks]

Virtually every character in the game has some opportunity to take advantage of free slots. Edward has his own slot until Chapter 1-7, for example. Ena has to fight for a slot, but she's clearly better than Sothe or Kurthnaga for taking it. Even Pelleas has free deployment. What puts these characters above Meg/Fiona is that they're actually useful with these slots. In fact, Fiona only has three slots she doesn't have to fight for, all in Part 3. That's the same as Lucia, for example, except that Lucia isn't unusably bad in her three chapters.

Duh. There's a reason Fiona is so low, and a reason she'd remain low even with optimal deployment. Basically, the only units Fiona would ever get over would be ones that have no free chapters at all (and aren't "optimal" for any chapters, either). That's pretty much it.

It might be interesting to formulate the list, but I wouldn't want to ruin this one in the creation. I like the way this one works for evaluating ability to contribute. It shows how good units can be.

[Interceptor]

I think that too much is being made of the "100% optimal deployment" argument, and how we should avoid using it, while not enough attention is being paid just to how little that Oliver's contribution to Endgame matters at all. Forget net utility and opportunity cost: Oliver fails even in a gross utility sense.

Suppose that we assume -- for the sake of argument -- that Oliver gets a free deployment slot for Endgame if you recruit him. Now he gets to attach himself to the Uber Team like a remora. But what does he do that can possibly contribute to efficient completion? In 4-E-1 he might give Micaiah the freedom to potshot a General, or weaken one himself (and I use that word "weaken" loosely, since Oliver could spend the entire chapter soloing, and he'd only kill one General). Nothing he does in E-2 matters, I'd argue that E-3 doesn't matter either (can't hurt D, and his Rescue utility is redundant). In E-4 and E-5, he can't hurt the main bosses, he does terrible damage to things that don't have to die, and barely hurts the Auras at all, so he's again only doing something worthwhile to the extent that Micaiah's offense means something during a time when she needs to heal. Which is to say, something lame that happens rarely.

As dumb as Meg's contributions are in her freebie chapters, in a battle of the stupid, she seems like she's lording over Oliver to me. I think that Oliver's position in Low is a result of not wanting to put a tier 3 unit in the 9th circle of hell, rather than an objective review of his worth.

[Narga_Rocks]

I think that too much is being made of the "100% optimal deployment" argument, and how we should avoid using it, while not enough attention is being paid just to how little that Oliver's contribution to Endgame matters at all. Forget net utility and opportunity cost: Oliver fails even in a gross utility sense.

Suppose that we assume -- for the sake of argument -- that Oliver gets a free deployment slot for Endgame if you recruit him. Now he gets to attach himself to the Uber Team like a remora. But what does he do that can possibly contribute to efficient completion? In 4-E-1 he might give Micaiah the freedom to potshot a General, or weaken one himself (and I use that word "weaken" loosely, since Oliver could spend the entire chapter soloing, and he'd only kill one General). Nothing he does in E-2 matters, I'd argue that E-3 doesn't matter either (can't hurt D, and his Rescue utility is redundant). In E-4 and E-5, he can't hurt the main bosses, he does terrible damage to things that don't have to die, and barely hurts the Auras at all, so he's again only doing something worthwhile to the extent that Micaiah's offense means something during a time when she needs to heal. Which is to say, something lame that happens rarely.

As dumb as Meg's contributions are in her freebie chapters, in a battle of the stupid, she seems like she's lording over Oliver to me. I think that Oliver's position in Low is a result of not wanting to put a tier 3 unit in the 9th circle of hell, rather than an objective review of his worth.

While you have a point, what's Meg doing? 1-4 to 3-13, yes? I suppose Meg can make Leo more accurate in 3-13 for hawks. Jill or whatever can kill Ike, but you probably have to deal with a hawk on the right before that's done. 3-6 all she's really doing is torching. 3-12 I don't think she's doing anything but trying to stay away from pegs. 1-4 to 1-6 she has free deployment and I suppose helps whack a few things (particularly at the start of 1-5 with all the enemies nearby). And she tries to pick up a couple of items in 1-4. I'm not sure that's better than tossing out a healing spell in 4-E-1 and warding Gareth in 4-E-5 in case you don't feel like killing the spirits.

If we go gross I suppose Meg can be trained, but really how many levels can she get while we are 7 or less turning most chapters in part 1 (except 1-E)? I mean, I wonder how well she even "keeps up" in chapters like 1-6-1 and 1-7 and 1-8. I suppose 1-E, as well.

But yeah, um, without anyone convincing me otherwise Oliver seems like Bottom Tier material if you finish 4-E in 8 turns or less (7 is minimum, right? 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 2)

Edited June 29, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[RNG Princess]

It shows how good units can be.

That makes sense but it contradicts Sothe's placing in this tier list since he turns into a liability after Part 1.

I disagree with Oliver's performance being better than Meg's or even Astrid's in their respective free chapters, since he's only good at healing deals unnecessary chipping and has terrible durability. The same is said for Astrid and Meg except that in their team you don't have the option to pick someone better so their contributions are a little more helpful than unnecessary. Sort of like Kyza or Lyre, they're good at shoving and what not but someone else can offer better performance.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Interceptor]

While you have a point, what's Meg doing? 1-4 to 3-13, yes? I suppose Meg can make Leo more accurate in 3-13 for hawks. Jill or whatever can kill Ike, but you probably have to deal with a hawk on the right before that's done. 3-6 all she's really doing is torching. 3-12 I don't think she's doing anything but trying to stay away from pegs. 1-4 to 1-6 she has free deployment and I suppose helps whack a few things (particularly at the start of 1-5 with all the enemies nearby). And she tries to pick up a couple of items in 1-4. I'm not sure that's better than tossing out a healing spell in 4-E-1 and warding Gareth in 4-E-5 in case you don't feel like killing the spirits.

We just don't weight things the same way in this situation. I look at what she does, and then at what he does, and I see Meg breaking even just from being an extra warm body for finding hidden items (somewhat absurdly, her biorhythm wave makes her decent at it in 1-4). I don't see what you listed for Oliver making any difference in chapter outcomes even in the case where he is free.

If we go gross I suppose Meg can be trained, but really how many levels can she get while we are 7 or less turning most chapters in part 1 (except 1-E)? I mean, I wonder how well she even "keeps up" in chapters like 1-6-1 and 1-7 and 1-8. I suppose 1-E, as well.

I'm not suggesting that we use gross utility for the tier list, or any of the comparisons contained within. I brought it up because using gross utility tends to make bad units seem better... except in Oliver's case, where it makes him seem exactly as bad as he is. You put your finger on the scale for him, he still fails to deliver. This realization ought to be a watershed moment for his tier position.

[Junkhead]

What do you define as gross utility? I've been hearing that term for a while now.

[Narga_Rocks]

We just don't weight things the same way in this situation. I look at what she does, and then at what he does, and I see Meg breaking even just from being an extra warm body for finding hidden items (somewhat absurdly, her biorhythm wave makes her decent at it in 1-4). I don't see what you listed for Oliver making any difference in chapter outcomes even in the case where he is free.

Well, the question comes to mind then: Fiona? Meg's attacking is kinda important to start 1-5 just to make things smoother and I suppose trying to pick something up in 1-4 is good, too. Now, she's only taking shots at one of them. I can't see her quickly getting from Master seal to beastfoe. 1-6 she doesn't really do much at all, though. I can accept Meg > Oliver, I guess. But Fiona just torches and blocks ledges. That's literally it. I'm not sure that she makes any difference, either.

I'm not suggesting that we use gross utility for the tier list, or any of the comparisons contained within. I brought it up because using gross utility tends to make bad units seem better... except in Oliver's case, where it makes him seem exactly as bad as he is. You put your finger on the scale for him, he still fails to deliver. This realization ought to be a watershed moment for his tier position.

It is kinda amusing.

(soul: gross is, to keep it simple, treating every unit as if you literally have no other options to deploy. You look at what they do and not what other options you had. Meg gets raised and given as many levels as possible (without slowing down) simply because we pretend you don't have any other units to replace her with.)

[RNG Princess]

Well, the question comes to mind then: Fiona? Meg's attacking is kinda important to start 1-5 just to make things smoother and I suppose trying to pick something up in 1-4 is good, too. Now, she's only taking shots at one of them. I can't see her quickly getting from Master seal to beastfoe. 1-6 she doesn't really do much at all, though. I can accept Meg > Oliver, I guess. But Fiona just torches and blocks ledges. That's literally it. I'm not sure that she makes any difference, either.

Javelin to decrease laguz tranformation gauge or teaming up against an untransformed laguz, well I found that useful but I agree that Fiona really doesn't have much to back her up with against Oliver. I'd say they are about equal, I am leaning torwards Astrid, Meg > Oliver.

BTW Meg can't get both beastfoe and master seal since she'd have to face two tigers trying to get beastfoe and she can only survive one with 10AS, she can get a coin and master seal though quite safely.

Oh and Meg + Wind Edge also help untransform cats/tigers for 1-4.

For 1-6 she does shoving around which is decent I would say.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Narga_Rocks]

BTW Meg can't get both beastfoe and master seal since she'd have to face two tigers trying to get beastfoe and she can only survive one with 10AS, she can get a coin and master seal though quite safely.

Um, kill them first? I'd assume you clear out the enemies in the way before Meg goes after the master seal, too. And since we don't allow resets for knowing the card order of coins, coins don't actually matter much at all in the tier list. Much as I love giving Mia a forge with a +1mt, +5crit or a +10 crit card. And making a +8 mt Light Forge for Laura with a twin swords card.

[RNG Princess]

Um, kill them first? I'd assume you clear out the enemies in the way before Meg goes after the master seal, too. And since we don't allow resets for knowing the card order of coins, coins don't actually matter much at all in the tier list. Much as I love giving Mia a forge with a +1mt, +5crit or a +10 crit card. And making a +8 mt Light Forge for Laura with a twin swords card.

In that case then you'd have to hurry clearing the way for her, and ok lets not count the coin but Master Seal is pretty useful and it could change everything to have a main fighter stop for it when you could have Meg do it instead.

[Interceptor]

Well, the question comes to mind then: Fiona? Meg's attacking is kinda important to start 1-5 just to make things smoother and I suppose trying to pick something up in 1-4 is good, too. Now, she's only taking shots at one of them. I can't see her quickly getting from Master seal to beastfoe. 1-6 she doesn't really do much at all, though. I can accept Meg > Oliver, I guess. But Fiona just torches and blocks ledges. That's literally it. I'm not sure that she makes any difference, either.

Sothe can't be in two places at once, so I find the ability to throw a couple people on the Master Seal location to be a useful thing to do. Seals are not so easy to come by that you can ignore the hidden ones.

Definitely Oliver cannot go under the Terrible Twosome of Fiona and Lyre, except perhaps under 100% optimal deployment, or unless someone makes a convincing argument with regard to the utility of having them suicide for the greater good (Oliver can't beat that, either).

[Junkhead]

Again, what is gross effeciency?

[RNG Princess]

Sothe can't be in two places at once, so I find the ability to throw a couple people on the Master Seal location to be a useful thing to do. Seals are not so easy to come by that you can ignore the hidden ones.

Definitely Oliver cannot go under the Terrible Twosome of Fiona and Lyre, except perhaps under 100% optimal deployment, or unless someone makes a convincing argument with regard to the utility of having them suicide for the greater good (Oliver can't beat that, either).

Perhaps Fiona could build a support but her only chances are Part 3 and I doubt it works that fast, I'm not good with supports. I did try to keep her close to many characters during 3-6 especially Volug but I doubt i'll accumulate the support without slowing down.

[Interceptor]

Again, what is gross effeciency?

Narga already answered you: it's measuring a unit's utility, but without looking at opportunity cost with respect to deployment. In other words, we would rank Eddie on a gross utility list by merely looking at what he does when he's deployed in all of his available chapters, and not penalize him for taking the deployment slot from a better unit.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Interceptor

[Narga_Rocks]

Narga already answered you: it's measuring a unit's utility, but without looking at opportunity cost with respect to deployment. In other words, we would rank Eddie on a gross utility list by merely looking at what he does when he's deployed in all of his available chapters, and not penalize him for taking the deployment slot from a better unit.

If he can't be bothered to read it the first time when someone answers him, why are you helping?

[Junkhead]

I didn't see it that's all. I'm sorry.

[Narga_Rocks]

I didn't see it that's all. I'm sorry.

I'd have been much more forgiving had it been an edit on my part. Oh well. Apology accepted.

[Interceptor]

If he can't be bothered to read it the first time when someone answers him, why are you helping?

Well, I thought it was a failure to understand, so I tried re-wording the explanation.