OMG it's a tier list

[Ether]

Well...Zihark can hold his own,atleast.He pulls decent combat,and while his 2-range is kinda shitty,he is pretty good overall in part 1.

In part 3,he doesn't really stand out,but he's not bad...atleast he has the best chance to dodge of anyone who is 2HKO'd by shit,so he isn't terrible.

In part 4,he has Avo,and can double.A silver Forge can help to make up for his MT issues,I guess...

I dunno,I could see him lower,but I'm not sure how far he might go.

[grandjackal]

I miss smash. Yes, I disagreed with him a lot, but at least he said something against what I want to do so that I have a chance to think beyond my own opinions to see if I'm really correct. At times, he has actually convinced me of things. Ok, not a lot of things, but things nonetheless. I mean, he has said so much he must have hit the mark at least twice, right? Anyway, someone please please please defend Zihark.

If you're referring to Eddie, I still believe I showed you numbers, I just think there was only the problem of there being a lack of EXP being his problem, or I believe that if it's worth it for part 3 when it's been shown you don't really have to be defensive in part 3. You're free to chalk that up to me just being crazy though.

Zihark though, I feel has nothing to defend with.

And there are only 4 free Master seals, GJ, and one of them is that one in 1-6-2 that you can't get in 2 turns. Probably not even in 3 turns.

No, there's 1-7, the one near the top jail cell.

...Or am I thinking of an Arms Scroll there?

Edited July 6, 2010 by Master Tang

[RNG Princess]

well Zihark has Earth support and unlike Edward he's speed-proof for Part 1, and he doesn't have defense issues until part 3. Is that defending him well enough Narga?

Oh yes and he's likely to use Brave sword on the 1-8 pirates/bandits/whatever they are.

^There is a Master Seal on 1-7 near the boss/jail cell.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Narga_Rocks]

If you're referring to Eddie, I still believe I showed you numbers, I just think there was only the problem of there being a lack of EXP being his problem, or I believe that if it's worth it for part 3 when it's been shown you don't really have to be defensive in part 3. You're free to chalk that up to me just being crazy though.

Zihark though, I feel has nothing to defend with.

No, there's 1-8, the one near the top jail cell.

...Or am I thinking of an Arms Scroll there?

1-4, 1-5, 1-7 (the one near the jail cell).

Those are the ones you are likely to get.

And I was talking about Zihark defences. You've done as good a job as can be expected when arguing someone like Eddie. I think he should be in the same tier as Tormod, Muarim, Geoffrey, and Kieran, though, and I don't see why he wouldn't deserve that. I'm actually more on your side than not with Edward, you know.

[grandjackal]

well Zihark has Earth support and unlike Edward he's speed-proof for Part 1, and he doesn't have defense issues until part 3. Is that defending him well enough Narga?

Outside of 1-8, I feel you have enough unit slots to make up for that fact, since Volug/Sothe/Taur/LEA do most of the heavy lifting from 1-6 onwards. Granted it's to his benefit that he's speed proof (as shown in 1-8), I just feel you can easily live without him.

As for his Earth affinity, feel free to show me how effective a C with Earth at 1-8 is for whoever he's supporting, since most supports can have at least up to 10 avoid by then, Earth's C giving 7-15 isn't that big a deal (unless I'm screwing up the bonus calcs AGAIN).

@Narga: Oh, so you were actually thinking of my Zihark argument? Yeah, I might be a bit broad on this one, but I find his standing to be more based on his use on the team rather than how much he statistically bitchslaps basic DB on arrival. I feel that two-three DB can make up for what Zihark does outside of slot-crunched chapters (1-7 through 1-E)Even then, 1-7 and 1-E are basically grab bags for EXP while the LEA/Nailah take care of actually finishing the chapter, so why WOULDN'T you otherwise try to get as much EXP as you could from these chapters?

Only 1-8 he has a legitimate claim on, since he actually does help push towards the boss of which the center team (the one he's part of) has the best chance at, and he helps by being garunteed to double the bandits on the way, thus giving him the best offense for the center team for completing the mission, as it would be harder without him busting bandits to clear the way for Sothe to annihilate the boss's cadre.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Master Tang

[RNG Princess]

Outside of 1-8, I feel you have enough unit slots to make up for that fact, since Volug/Sothe/Taur/LEA do most of the heavy lifting from 1-6 onwards. Granted it's to his benefit that he's speed proof (as shown in 1-8), I just feel you can easily live without him.

As for his Earth affinity, feel free to show me how effective a C with Earth at 1-8 is for whoever he's supporting, since most supports can have at least up to 10 avoid by then, Earth's C giving 7-15 isn't that big a deal (unless I'm screwing up the bonus calcs AGAIN).

1-7 actually has tight spots too but I'm sure Eddie deserves one.

His earth supports are better off for Part 3 and he could use it well against the bandits maybe in 1-8.

[grandjackal]

1-7 actually has tight spots too but I'm sure Eddie deserves one.

Considering that the LEA are the reason this chapter's being beat in 5 turns and not Zihark, there's no reason to bring Zihark when I can get more by feeeding EXP to my DB units, since overall Zihark would be doing the same thing they're doing.

His earth supports are better off for Part 3 and he could use it well against the bandits maybe in 1-8.

His B support kicks in at 3-6 if he's lucky. At best, this is giving him 79 avoid if he's level 5 and has that support with Volug. To give you an idea on how "helpful" that is, Eddie with Caladbolg and his A with Nolan is 80+8. We throw Resolve into the equation, 114, while Eddie's got 100+8. Having 6 more avoid than someone who "sucks" and can stack Resolve with Wrath while at the same time (The only other guy who can do that is Volug, who while could ORKO cats and is tougher, doesn't quite have Eddie's lol 80 crit on top of it, and I'm not sure if Volug can stack Cancel on top of it, nor is he helping Nolan more with a support, so I think we can live with less cat kills for more tiger kills and helping Eddie be pretty good while helping Nolan go from awesome to uber) helping Nolan survive longer with +2 Def and 22 avoid (you know, the guy carrying the team with Beastfoe Tarvos), Zihark's not off to a great start for part 3. He'd be lucky if the A support kicked in in part 3 at all.

On top of that, this is depending on his support with Volug, which is not gonna happen to get a B by 3-6. Wanna know why? How are Volug and Zihark gonna ever be next to eachother in 1-8? So, his support with Volug would be useless in 1-8, and isn't helping either of them in part 3. His best bet is Jill, so reduce that avoid by 6. Oh wow, he's got Eddie's avoid, just far less effective in combat for part 3! At least he's helping Jill.

As for the 1-8 Bandits?

2x Bandit lvl 14 (Venin Axe)

HP 39, Atk 21, AS 15, Hit 114, Avo, 36, DEF 15, RES 7, Crit 6, Ddg 8

2x Bandit lvl 15 (Venin Axe)

HP 39, Atk 22, AS 16, Hit 121, Avo 41, DEF 16, RES 6, Crit 8, Ddg 9

1x Bandit lvl 15 (Steel Axe)

HP 39, Atk 23, AS 14, Hit 116, Avo 37, DEF 15, RES 7, Crit 8, Ddg 9

1x Bandit lvl 16 (Hand Axe)

HP 39, Atk 23, AS 16, Hit 115, Avo 43, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 8, Ddg 11

1x Bandit lvl 16 (Venin Axe)

HP 39, Atk 22, AS 18, Hit 119, Avo 45, DEF 16, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 9

Zihark's got 57 base avoid. +12 avoid is 69 69 with Jill and Zihark, hoooooot. The lowest he faces here is 45. That's coinflips, and he's one of the more evasive guys on the team! How the fuck is his support gonna help someone with LESS speed and marginal luck leads?

In fact, if Eddie's level 16 with Nolan support? 52 avoid with 15 boost (if the support is still at B ). He's barely dodging more than Eddie. Granted he's better at combat here, but I'm just showing Zihark's Earth is not helping as much as one may think.

Funny thing is? If Eddie and Nolan have A, Eddie's got 74 avoid. Lowest he faces is 38, which is faulty but not bad. Eddie's actually more capable of being dodgier. So, since the best you can hope for dodging is still not reliable, I think we can ignore whatever boosts Zihark gives for part 3.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Master Tang

[Tables]

I think I should at least try to get involved in a tier list topic. So... without looking up stats (which is probably the big mistake... I just don't quite feel up to it right now though)

Firstly, a general point. Ziharks Bio is the slowest type, and as such, we can pretty much predict where it is during his first few chapters. It has a 25 turn cycle, with it being in the good zone during turns 3-12, and bad during turns 15-24.

1-6: Tauroneo and Volug are your best fighters here, and after them, it's Zihark. His above average offence and decent avoid, especially in 1-6-1 (since 1-6-2 is cleared quickly anyway) lets him play aggressively, and help make a few kills. While he can't really deal with the armours, he's good against the units in the east, and he pretty much has sole claim to the Wind Edge. At this point, he's in best bio due to the 6 turns of 1-5, so hit rate isn't much of an issue, and neither is avoid, due to the +10% bonus they both have. Compared to Nolan, he's more reliable defensively and his offence is decent, too.

1-7: He's moving into bad/worst bio at this point, which hurts him badly in terms of hit and avoid, but he's a good candidate for taking the northern enemies, should you want to, given existent 1-2 range and being the best combat unit starting in that corner. Asides from that, all I can say is that he can do anything that Nolan could do... I think.

1-8: He has good offence versus the northern Bandits, and both he and Nolan are probably heading around that way. His avoid isn't so stellar as he likely is still in worst bio, but he'll be moving up out of it in this chapter too. After that, he's good at taking on the boss's unit, due to better avoid than Nolan and similar defensive stats (although Nolans extra HP might help him survive a little longer...)

1-E: Best Bio again means a lot in this chapter (I think... is about 25 turns since the start of 1-6-1 excluding 1-9 about right?), where hit rates are at a premium. Of course, he also has to compete with Tormod, Muarim, Nailah and the BK, but after then he's probably the 5th best attacker you have (Nolan's hit rate is shaky here).

3-6: He's similar offensively and defensively to Nolan, I think. I'm really not sure. I think actually he's looking at moving into Worst Bio though, which would hurt.

3-12: He probably has his support with someone at a decent level by now, giving him very good avoid. His defences I expect are high enough that he's 3HKOed as well, so he's relatively solid defensively, and his offence is probably worse than Nolan's but still good enough to ORKO many enemies with a steel forge.

3-13: Is there much to say about either here? I don't really know...

So, Ziharks contribution in 1-6-1, 1-8 and 1-E are the main points here, they're pretty significant, especially 1-8 where there aren't many other good options for that central team, and 1-6 doesn't have so many hands available. Does that weigh out Nolan's contribtion through 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-4 and 1-5? I don't know.

[dondon151]

Zihark ORKOs 2 bandits with a Brave Sword. That's pretty much it for him in 1-8.

Enemies in Part 1 tend to be sparce and spread thin. If you take out enemies in the general vicinity quickly, Eddie's durability is hardly an issue.

Oh, really? So what about that chokepoint in 1-1 that basically requires you to stick Nolan there because Eddie is 2RKO'd? Or how about the left stairwell in 1-2, where Eddie can be attacked by 3-4 enemies? Or how about the entire left side in 1-3? Or how about south of the starting point in 1-4 where you can get attacked by 3 laguz on turn 1 enemy phase? Or how about, like, all of 1-5 or 1-6-1? Or those knights in 1-6-2 from the left? Or the group of enemies on the left side in 1-7? Or the entirety of 1-E?

Yeah, I don't think you know what you're talking about. Low enemy density my ass.

1-6: Tauroneo and Volug are your best fighters here, and after them, it's Zihark. His above average offence and decent avoid, especially in 1-6-1 (since 1-6-2 is cleared quickly anyway) lets him play aggressively, and help make a few kills. While he can't really deal with the armours, he's good against the units in the east, and he pretty much has sole claim to the Wind Edge. At this point, he's in best bio due to the 6 turns of 1-5, so hit rate isn't much of an issue, and neither is avoid, due to the +10% bonus they both have. Compared to Nolan, he's more reliable defensively and his offence is decent, too.

Incorrect. Sothe and Tauroneo are your best fighters here, with Volug coming in a distant third and Zihark a very distant fourth. Sothe has 7 MT Iron Knives off base 18 str while Zihark has 6 MT Wind Edge off base 17 str. Sothe cleanly ORKOs most archers, fighters, and soldiers while Zihark comes up short on at least the fighters and soldiers.

1-7: He's moving into bad/worst bio at this point, which hurts him badly in terms of hit and avoid, but he's a good candidate for taking the northern enemies, should you want to, given existent 1-2 range and being the best combat unit starting in that corner. Asides from that, all I can say is that he can do anything that Nolan could do... I think.

You don't want to take on those guys at all. Unless you seem to think it is worth letting the green soldiers escape, but the BEXP is trivial.

1-8: He has good offence versus the northern Bandits, and both he and Nolan are probably heading around that way. His avoid isn't so stellar as he likely is still in worst bio, but he'll be moving up out of it in this chapter too. After that, he's good at taking on the boss's unit, due to better avoid than Nolan and similar defensive stats (although Nolans extra HP might help him survive a little longer...)

Sothe has dibs on the boss. It takes forever for Zihark to loop around because thickets cost 2 for him but only 1 for Sothe.

1-E: Best Bio again means a lot in this chapter (I think... is about 25 turns since the start of 1-6-1 excluding 1-9 about right?), where hit rates are at a premium. Of course, he also has to compete with Tormod, Muarim, Nailah and the BK, but after then he's probably the 5th best attacker you have (Nolan's hit rate is shaky here).

For me, it was 15 turns. Zihark is terrible here. Jarod's authority and unforgeable Wind Edges mean terrible 2-range. Your best units (and by best I mean most helpful) are BK, Nailah, Volug, Vika, Muarim, Rafiel, Jill, Sothe, not in order. That's a long list, but they're all pretty good on this map. You can see that they have a lot in common - though not all of them have all of these traits - good move, small ledge penalties, ability to rescue, broken offense. Zihark doesn't have any of that.

Edited July 7, 2010 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

I think I should at least try to get involved in a tier list topic. So... without looking up stats (which is probably the big mistake... I just don't quite feel up to it right now though)

Firstly, a general point. Ziharks Bio is the slowest type, and as such, we can pretty much predict where it is during his first few chapters. It has a 25 turn cycle, with it being in the good zone during turns 3-12, and bad during turns 15-24.

1-6: Tauroneo and Volug are your best fighters here, and after them, it's Zihark. His above average offence and decent avoid, especially in 1-6-1 (since 1-6-2 is cleared quickly anyway) lets him play aggressively, and help make a few kills. While he can't really deal with the armours, he's good against the units in the east, and he pretty much has sole claim to the Wind Edge. At this point, he's in best bio due to the 6 turns of 1-5, so hit rate isn't much of an issue, and neither is avoid, due to the +10% bonus they both have. Compared to Nolan, he's more reliable defensively and his offence is decent, too.

Now ask yourself who's getting to the east side first? You also forgot to mention how Sothe's capable of matching Volug's offense at range, that Volug has more move, and Jill is capable of flight, ignoring the slowing effects of terrain. That's 1-6-1, and he's not doing much that some DB units can't team up and do themselves.

As for 1-6-2, Zihark's up shit creek no matter how you split it. Jill can end the chapter in 2 turns with a Taur drop, of which Zihark's sitting on his ass with the rest of the team. If we go the normal route, all that has to be done is clearing out the starting area, breaking through the cav army to the left (you can do this in one turn, and I've done it easily, without his help), then luring the boss out and killing him. Can be done in at least 4 turns, and I can tell you safely that Zihark barely needs to enter the equation. Sure he's a safety bot when it comes to that thought, but he's hardly necessary.

1-7: He's moving into bad/worst bio at this point, which hurts him badly in terms of hit and avoid, but he's a good candidate for taking the northern enemies, should you want to, given existent 1-2 range and being the best combat unit starting in that corner. Asides from that, all I can say is that he can do anything that Nolan could do... I think.

Ok great, he killed some guys and got piddling EXP since hte LEA did the heavy lifting and ended the chapter in 5 turns. Why would I bother feeding Zihark when I could feed 2 or 3 DB EXP, since Zihark's not doing anything to help the chapter actually progress? If we predict he's gonna have crap bio here on top of it, I don't get the point.

1-8: He has good offence versus the northern Bandits, and both he and Nolan are probably heading around that way. His avoid isn't so stellar as he likely is still in worst bio, but he'll be moving up out of it in this chapter too. After that, he's good at taking on the boss's unit, due to better avoid than Nolan and similar defensive stats (although Nolans extra HP might help him survive a little longer...)

Sothe would be better, since the boss and most of his unit have ranged weapon, and Sothe has a ranged weapon that doesn't suck dong. All Zihark's good for here is clearing Sothe's path to said boss by being the most effective unit against bandits. That however is a legitimate point in his favor, thanks to his speed. No one's better at it. No one available on hte center team anyways.

1-E: Best Bio again means a lot in this chapter (I think... is about 25 turns since the start of 1-6-1 excluding 1-9 about right?), where hit rates are at a premium. Of course, he also has to compete with Tormod, Muarim, Nailah and the BK, but after then he's probably the 5th best attacker you have (Nolan's hit rate is shaky here).

Again, considering Nailah and transport units are all you need to beat the chapter in 6-8 turns, Everyone else is doing little outside of grabbing whatever EXP they can for part 3. It's the same as 1-7.

3-6: He's similar offensively and defensively to Nolan, I think. I'm really not sure. I think actually he's looking at moving into Worst Bio though, which would hurt.

Nolan could have Beastfoe with Tarvos to OHKO enemies while packing 37-38 HP (nearly a 1.5x increase of Zihark's HP), about 14 Def with Tarvos's +4 boost and a possible +2 from Eddie, on top of 72 avoid with said support, which would be 7 less than Zihark if he had a B with Volug. Since Zihark DOESN'T have a support with Volug and instead has Jill, Zihark's lead is only 1 avoid outside of Resolve (good luck taking that from Volug, or even Eddie since Eddie's got natural Wrath and better avoid with it thanks to Caladbolg, whch also gives Eddie greater offense normally).

so uhhhh, no. He's not even close to Nolan, offensively or defensively. Even Eddie's capable of smoking him out of the water.

3-12: He probably has his support with someone at a decent level by now, giving him very good avoid. His defences I expect are high enough that he's 3HKOed as well, so he's relatively solid defensively, and his offence is probably worse than Nolan's but still good enough to ORKO many enemies with a steel forge.

Except for the fact that he's probably currently the weakest member of a seriously used team thus far (no team with Meg or Fiona taking Zihark's place is a serious team).

3-13: Is there much to say about either here? I don't really know...

Nolan's support helps Eddie WrathxResolve Ike to end the chapter quickly, and Nolan's still got Beastfoe Tarvos, and even crossbows or bowguns or whatever to shoot down ledges for the same effect of OHKOing laguz. Even without Beastslayer, crossbows/bowguns are still good for the occasional hawk that flies in. Zihark's...Got a Storm Sword.

So, Ziharks contribution in 1-6-1, 1-8 and 1-E are the main points here, they're pretty significant, especially 1-8 where there aren't many other good options for that central team, and 1-6 doesn't have so many hands available. Does that weigh out Nolan's contribtion through 1-1, 1-2, 1-3, 1-4 and 1-5? I don't know.

They don't even come close.

Oh, really? So what about that chokepoint in 1-1 that basically requires you to stick Nolan there because Eddie is 2RKO'd?

You can shove Eddie to block the alleyway to the right as to deny fighters from ganging up on Nolan while at the same time avoiding the javelin soldier so that he attacks Nolan and thus dies faster. It offers now 2 spaces to attack the soldier/other fighters on Nolan's side, so after Nolan smacks the archer, Leo shoots him, Nolan kills, Miccy sacrifices, while Eddie blocks the guys on the right, taking a heal if he must. When Nolan kills one of the fighters he chipped on turn 1 on enemy phase, Eddie's now got access to a Leo-chipped kill while Nolan still blocks the fighters from the right, now turning that chokepoint into your own. You can still get out by turn 5 or 6.

Sure, Eddie's not Nolan here, but claiming he's useless because he's not Nolan is bullshit.

Or how about the left stairwell in 1-2, where Eddie can be attacked by 3-4 enemies?

What the hell are you doing? See the one space chokepoint immediately at your start? Use that to make it so only 1 attacks him, then retreat back to the ledge, and have him move up that way. You just minimized how often he gets attacked while still granting him access to the same EXP.

Or how about the entire left side in 1-3?

Thus you send him down the right side. Ranged units hang near the walls to help kill ranged units, now Eddie's barely got anything standing in his way. You're actually capable of using this to your advantage, by using vulns or herbs to abuse the hell out of Wrath. With this, you can actually pull a couple guys off the left side to go defend the right side, thus there is now less effort going down the left side. Recruiting Aran is now easier, as is killing the boss and escaping.

Or how about south of the starting point in 1-4 where you can get attacked

by 3 laguz on turn 1 enemy phase?

Two space wide chokepoint next to a healing crystal while offering you a lot more space of which to attack form range, and getting you closer to a 1 space choke in the lower right area as to block oncoming tigers. Minimized attacks taken per unit along with the damage thanks to the healing crystal, and yet maximized my offense.

Or how about, like, all of 1-5

Volug and Taur's group can take care of everything in their vicinity. Eddie can take the ledge with Nolan while everyone else heads through the south desert. Don't worry about Eddie's offense, a wing edge and the ledge bonuses at level 12-13, he's hardly got issues killing things. If you're really bent for damage, Leo can help with his Longbow as to attack down a ledge without pulling attention to him and away from Nolan/Eddie.

I say everyone else goes south is because if they went north, they'd get a grand total of 2 kills before Volug gobbles everything else up, while the south at least has 4-6 available kills and a Master Seal.

or 1-6-1?

Were you playing the same 1-6-1 I was? There's a grand total of 5 guys in the center, with a fighter at the start that is so easy to pick off it's hilarious. Those other 4 are seperated, 2 north and close, the other 2 south and far away, having to go through some bush to reach you. How is that not sparce and spread thin? Unless you're suggesting we through Eddie north towards the armors...

If you're referring to the pegasus knights, the hiighest might they got is 19, lowest is 16. Level 13 Eddie's got 26-27HP and 8 Def with +1 from his own affinity and support. He's getting 4RKOd, since there's only 1 pegasi with 19 might, and the most they group up to is groups of 3. You can't seriously be busting my ass on this. 17 Speed, 12 Luck and Nolan support gives him 61 avoid, and there a lot of bushes in the center for when they immediately show up. They have 115-101 acc to his 71 effective avoid. How is Eddie in even the least amount of chance dying here? Please tell me.

Or those knights in 1-6-2 from the left?

You can have all but 2 of them dead by turn 3, so if we're doing a Taur drop, they never enter into the equation. If we're going the land route, let's say Eddie's the last guy out there with Nolan, sticking out on the bridge when these two guys are left.

1x Sword Knight lvl 13 (Wind Edge, droppable Red Gem)

HP 27, Atk 17, AS 12, Hit 91, Avo 37, DEF 13, RES 4, Crit 4, Ddg 8

1x Sword Knight lvl 12 (Steel Sword)

HP 26, Atk 20, AS 11, Hit 115, Avo 34, DEF 13, RES 4, Crit 4, Ddg 7

1x Sword Knight lvl 13 (Steel Sword)

HP 27, Atk 20, AS 12, Hit 115, Avo 36, DEF 13, RES 4, Crit 4, Ddg 7

2x Sword Knight lvl 14 (Steel Sword)

HP 28, Atk 21, AS 12, Hit 118, Avo 37, DEF 14, RES 5, Crit 5, Ddg 8

1x Sword Knight lvl 15 (Steel Sword)

HP 29, Atk 22, AS 13, Hit 118, Avo 39, DEF 14, RES 5, Crit 5, Ddg 8

3RKOd, and Eddie might even be level 14 by now for a garuntee on his 27 HP on average. So if we can say that there will only be 2, Eddie's in no danger. In fact, he'd be in Wrath range, so the last guy who attacks him is dead as dirt. That is, if both hit.

Or the group of enemies on the left side in 1-7?

There are 4 guys there with possible myrm assailants from the stairs. They got 26-28 might each. Even freaking Volug is in danger of dying, why would I send ANYONE alone against those guys. Good thing is, the armor knight moves to attack you first, so after taking him down, there's only 3. You can easily take down 3 in a player phase.

Or the entirety of 1-E?

Nailah with Pass can pretty much destroy most of the enemies here, leaving most of the map like most other DB maps. At worst, you'll have to deal with an armor and mage at the top of the first flight of stairs, and up on Jarod's block, of which if you're that high then Jarod's dead meat, making the enemies here far less threatening now that the authority stars are gone. That, and the chapter's probably over by then anyways. If you're REALLY desperate, BK can help shove or block up paths to minimize danger.

Yeah, I don't think you know what you're talking about. Low enemy density my ass.

You counted 1-2 as not having low enemy density when it's got forces that are in fact spread out and easy to manipulate due to your surroundings. If enemy density isn't low, they sure are easy as hell to minimize what they can actually do to you.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Master Tang

[Anouleth]

And it'll be interesting to see what dondon does for the DB part 3. I think speedwing Volug with 30 speed is going to beat up on Ike with 25 speed (winged), but frankly that won't actually fly on the tier list since Ike should have 28 to 30 speed at that point and Volug probably can't get high enough to double even with a wing (that we'd be sending to the GMs anyway).

I was capable of getting Volug to 16->32 AS in time for 3-13. Funnily enough, I was actually panicking slightly since he was speed-screwed and I was worried he wouldn't double, but then I threw BEXP at him until he started proccing. Even then he was screwed by a point (he was level 25).

[RNG Princess]

@ Master Tang I supported Zihark and Sothe and it was decently helpful in 1-8.

You're right about Volug in 1-6-1 he's got the upper hand

I like how you've worded Edward, he sounds so promising.

oh and Eddie has amazing experience gain over Zihark

Edited July 7, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[grandjackal]

@ Master Tang I supported Zihark and Sothe and it was decently helpful in 1-8.

Congratulations, you took Sothe's 2 Might, 15 Avoid and 7 Hit support to give him a 0 Might, 12 Avoid and 2 Hit support.

I like how you've worded Edward, he sounds so promising.

My argument's still got plenty of flaws I need to think over, so don't be sold quite yet.

[RNG Princess]

Congratulations, you took Sothe's 2 Might, 15 Avoid and 7 Hit support to give him a 0 Might, 12 Avoid and 2 Hit support.

My argument's still got plenty of flaws I need to think over, so don't be sold quite yet.

I'm not sold just yet ;)

As for the support, I thought Sothe NEEDED an Earth support since B Earth helps him so much in Part 3 I hear, so it wasn't a complete loss for me really.

Its going to suck that Zihark won't go to endgame but Sothe will be totally useless anyway.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[grandjackal]

As for the support, I thought Sothe NEEDED an Earth support since B Earth helps him so much in Part 3 I hear, so it wasn't a complete loss for me really.

You sacrificed 2 might for 9 avoid. If it wasn't a complete loss, it wasn't a complete gain for the sacrifice either.

[RNG Princess]

You sacrificed 2 might for 9 avoid. If it wasn't a complete loss, it wasn't a complete gain for the sacrifice either.

Not a gain or a loss since Micaiah can't keep up with Sothe all the time and Zihark mostly can so at least he had something.

Also can't Jill find Master seal in 1-6-2 if she lands on the spot after dropping??? I know it would be lucky, but its possible isn't it?

[Narga_Rocks]

Not a gain or a loss since Micaiah can't keep up with Sothe all the time and Zihark mostly can so at least he had something.

Also can't Jill find Master seal in 1-6-2 if she lands on the spot after dropping??? I know it would be lucky, but its possible isn't it?

Jill dies, then. Probably. The Jill drop lets her get back out on the water (I think) which keeps her away from the enemies. Also, it lets you end on turn 2 enemy phase because even though the boss has 1-2 range, he's forced to attack Taur at 1 range due to enemies being in the only spots from which he could attack at 2. In dropping Taur there, I'm not sure Jill can even reach the master seal location.

[Fenrir]

*BK does everything in 3-6, Crowned Taur takes care of 3-12, Volug Wrath Resolve on Ike for 3-13, or barring that just plugging up holes in defense and waiting till the chapter ends naturally, abusing hte hell out of the sheer amount of NPCs there are on the chapter*

But by these methods, these chapters will take awhile. 12 turns to...5-6 on 3-13.

Also, Wrath/Resolve Eddie

teehee

I miss smash. Yes, I disagreed with him a lot, but at least he said something against what I want to do so that I have a chance to think beyond my own opinions to see if I'm really correct. At times, he has actually convinced me of things. Ok, not a lot of things, but things nonetheless. I mean, he has said so much he must have hit the mark at least twice, right? Anyway, someone please please please defend Zihark.

And there are only 4 free Master seals, GJ, and one of them is that one in 1-6-2 that you can't get in 2 turns. Probably not even in 3 turns.

Ok, i didn't read any posts past here since you ask so kindly(3 pleases and i'm from the south) I did a 5 turn with him and ed on 3-13 today, I don't see what jill does better, she like 5HKO's Ike, 20/1 Zihark + an eddy hit with tempest blade killed Ike, so zihark is doing stuff in part 3 added with all he does in Part 1.

@ Queen Elincia, once you use ed seirously it's hard not to love him.

EDIT: i just read Queen Elincia's Log and she 8 turned 3-13, should've blitzed using a 20/20/1 zihark and 20/15 eddy, nah jk =p you did fine

Edited July 7, 2010 by Fenrir

[Shadow Mir]

once you use ed seirously it's hard not to love him.

To be honest, I tried to use Ed seriously my first playthrough. I was... severely disappointed in him, and thus decided that he was more trouble than he was worth after 1-6 was over, and kicked him to the curb.

At any rate, is there a chance of Geoffrey > Soren happening?

[Fenrir]

To be honest, I tried to use Ed seriously my first playthrough. I was... severely disappointed in him, and thus decided that he was more trouble than he was worth after 1-6 was over, and kicked him to the curb.

At any rate, is there a chance of Geoffrey > Soren happening?

I would approve of Geoffrey > Soren.

That's what i did the first time i trained ed, but this second time, he's been awesome(and even speed screwed)

[grandjackal]

To be honest, I tried to use Ed seriously my first playthrough. I was... severely disappointed in him, and thus decided that he was more trouble than he was worth after 1-6 was over, and kicked him to the curb.

You have to use him by unconventional means, try to be more creative.

At any rate, is there a chance of Geoffrey > Soren happening?

Wait, that hasn't happened already?

[dondon151]

You can shove Eddie to block the alleyway to the right as to deny fighters from ganging up on Nolan while at the same time avoiding the javelin soldier so that he attacks Nolan and thus dies faster. It offers now 2 spaces to attack the soldier/other fighters on Nolan's side, so after Nolan smacks the archer, Leo shoots him, Nolan kills, Miccy sacrifices, while Eddie blocks the guys on the right, taking a heal if he must. When Nolan kills one of the fighters he chipped on turn 1 on enemy phase, Eddie's now got access to a Leo-chipped kill while Nolan still blocks the fighters from the right, now turning that chokepoint into your own. You can still get out by turn 5 or 6.

Sure, Eddie's not Nolan here, but claiming he's useless because he's not Nolan is bullshit.

I did not claim that Eddie was useless. Don't put words in my mouth. I mentioned this specifically to prove a point - enemy density is high, Eddie can only take 1 round of combat before having to be healed, while Nolan's 23 atk 2HKOs every damn enemy here and his 29 HP, 9 def is 4RKO'd by almost every combination on this map.

What the hell are you doing? See the one space chokepoint immediately at your start? Use that to make it so only 1 attacks him, then retreat back to the ledge, and have him move up that way. You just minimized how often he gets attacked while still granting him access to the same EXP.

I don't think you understand. I said left stairs. You know, near the place where Sothe enters the map. Your best choice is to have Sothe solo the entire top of the map, because getting Eddie and his 2HKO'd ass in there is going to slow you down.

Thus you send him down the right side. Ranged units hang near the walls to help kill ranged units, now Eddie's barely got anything standing in his way. You're actually capable of using this to your advantage, by using vulns or herbs to abuse the hell out of Wrath. With this, you can actually pull a couple guys off the left side to go defend the right side, thus there is now less effort going down the left side. Recruiting Aran is now easier, as is killing the boss and escaping.

There are only 3 units that you need to send down the right side: Nolan, Micaiah, and Sothe. I guess you can send Ilyana instead of Nolan, as you only need to chip at an armor that Micaiah probably will fall short of OHKOing. The LHS has a plethora of 20-22 atk units, and he has to be 11/0 on average to survive even 2 20 atk units. Your best move here is to just have Kurth block a chokepoint and recruit Aran on your last turn.

Two space wide chokepoint next to a healing crystal while offering you a lot more space of which to attack form range, and getting you closer to a 1 space choke in the lower right area as to block oncoming tigers. Minimized attacks taken per unit along with the damage thanks to the healing crystal, and yet maximized my offense.

So, explain to me what happens when Eddie activates Wrath and blicks an enemy on enemy phase? No amount of blocking and healing jar will save him. He needs to be at least 13/0, with HP rounding up, and have any kind of support to survive an 18 atk cat + 26 atk tiger.

Volug and Taur's group can take care of everything in their vicinity. Eddie can take the ledge with Nolan while everyone else heads through the south desert. Don't worry about Eddie's offense, a wing edge and the ledge bonuses at level 12-13, he's hardly got issues killing things. If you're really bent for damage, Leo can help with his Longbow as to attack down a ledge without pulling attention to him and away from Nolan/Eddie.

I say everyone else goes south is because if they went north, they'd get a grand total of 2 kills before Volug gobbles everything else up, while the south at least has 4-6 available kills and a Master Seal.

Eddie does not ORKO fighters or soldiers, and needs an atk support to ORKO archers. Oh, and he's only doubling soldiers assuming he gets 8-9 levels in 5 maps, otherwise he won't even have 17 AS. You're forcing him to share a total of 5 kills with probably Nolan. Nice job gimping your EXP.

Were you playing the same 1-6-1 I was? There's a grand total of 5 guys in the center, with a fighter at the start that is so easy to pick off it's hilarious. Those other 4 are seperated, 2 north and close, the other 2 south and far away, having to go through some bush to reach you. How is that not sparce and spread thin? Unless you're suggesting we through Eddie north towards the armors...

If you're referring to the pegasus knights, the hiighest might they got is 19, lowest is 16. Level 13 Eddie's got 26-27HP and 8 Def with +1 from his own affinity and support. He's getting 4RKOd, since there's only 1 pegasi with 19 might, and the most they group up to is groups of 3. You can't seriously be busting my ass on this. 17 Speed, 12 Luck and Nolan support gives him 61 avoid, and there a lot of bushes in the center for when they immediately show up. They have 115-101 acc to his 71 effective avoid. How is Eddie in even the least amount of chance dying here? Please tell me.

You can shove Sothe twice and move him to a spot on turn 1 that kills the fighter and counterkills the soldier and archer. You then have 2 armors in the center with a myrm and likely a thunder mage. The northwest (where Eddie is never going) has 2 armors, another thunder mage, and a Killing Edge myrm. You have 3 armors and an archer from the northeast. You wouldn't want Eddie countering PKs because half of them have Javelins and he can't even ORKO them until something like 16/0 with A Leo.

You can have all but 2 of them dead by turn 3, so if we're doing a Taur drop, they never enter into the equation. If we're going the land route, let's say Eddie's the last guy out there with Nolan, sticking out on the bridge when these two guys are left.

1x Sword Knight lvl 13 (Wind Edge, droppable Red Gem)

HP 27, Atk 17, AS 12, Hit 91, Avo 37, DEF 13, RES 4, Crit 4, Ddg 8

1x Sword Knight lvl 12 (Steel Sword)

HP 26, Atk 20, AS 11, Hit 115, Avo 34, DEF 13, RES 4, Crit 4, Ddg 7

1x Sword Knight lvl 13 (Steel Sword)

HP 27, Atk 20, AS 12, Hit 115, Avo 36, DEF 13, RES 4, Crit 4, Ddg 7

2x Sword Knight lvl 14 (Steel Sword)

HP 28, Atk 21, AS 12, Hit 118, Avo 37, DEF 14, RES 5, Crit 5, Ddg 8

1x Sword Knight lvl 15 (Steel Sword)

HP 29, Atk 22, AS 13, Hit 118, Avo 39, DEF 14, RES 5, Crit 5, Ddg 8

3RKOd, and Eddie might even be level 14 by now for a garuntee on his 27 HP on average. So if we can say that there will only be 2, Eddie's in no danger. In fact, he'd be in Wrath range, so the last guy who attacks him is dead as dirt. That is, if both hit.

Here's a better idea: put Volug on the left bridge on turn 2. All enemies move before Laverton and Volug just got 12 strike WEXP (i.e. 17% of the WEXP needed for S) in a single enemy phase, plus you get to finish in 2 turns.

There are 4 guys there with possible myrm assailants from the stairs. They got 26-28 might each. Even freaking Volug is in danger of dying, why would I send ANYONE alone against those guys. Good thing is, the armor knight moves to attack you first, so after taking him down, there's only 3. You can easily take down 3 in a player phase.

Great, you just proved my point. You've got guys with 26 atk now. Eddie needs to be 18/0 with at least B Leo if he wants to escape being 2RKO'd.

Nailah with Pass can pretty much destroy most of the enemies here, leaving most of the map like most other DB maps. At worst, you'll have to deal with an armor and mage at the top of the first flight of stairs, and up on Jarod's block, of which if you're that high then Jarod's dead meat, making the enemies here far less threatening now that the authority stars are gone. That, and the chapter's probably over by then anyways. If you're REALLY desperate, BK can help shove or block up paths to minimize danger.

Again, you just proved my point. 2 attacks with height bonus kills Eddie. There is absolutely nothing that he can do here.

Here, let's look at your as of now unfinished playthrough:

1-P and 1-1 are basically the same and there is nothing you can do.

1-2: 2 extra turns for EXP and Wind Edge.

1-3: 1 extra turn. Needs to be 11/0 to survive 2 attacks, and you had him at 9/0 after 1-3.

1-4: 3 extra turns to favor Eddie. Needs to be 13/0 to survive aforementioned combination, and like I said above, he was 9/0 here.

1-5: Needs to be 12/0 just to double anything reliably. You had him at 11/0 after 1-4.

1-6: 5 extra turns to favor Eddie. Needs to be 16/0 to ORKO PKs with Wind Edge. You had him at 12/0 after 1-5.

1-7: 5 extra turns to favor Eddie. Needs to be 18/0 to survive 2 rounds from 26 atk with +2 def support. You had him at 14/0 after 1-6.

1-8: 2 extra turns, although you can't favor Eddie that much in this map.

1-E: 4 extra turns, although you just wanted to dally on the map so I won't hold it against you.

So that's what, 16 turns that you used up to favor Eddie? And he didn't even make any of the level benchmarks. You gave him a Dracoshield? Well, what if Nolan, Jill, or Volug want it more? Is Eddie going to save 16 turns over any of his 3 part 3 maps or 3+ part 4 maps?

Edited July 7, 2010 by dondon151

[Fenrir]

Dondon, you really confuse me, do you like anybody in the DB?completely fine with me if you don't ed is lil kid, leo is...well...y'know, nolan(oddly enough) reminds me of a pedophile(maybe because so many people say he rapes this, this and that?) miccy is ahnoying(mainly about Ike, no one talks shit about Ike) and sothe is ahnoyinglaughs to self about that topic posted on FFtF about RFoF and sothe

and what exactly are you guys arguing about?

[RNG Princess]

But by these methods, these chapters will take awhile. 12 turns to...5-6 on 3-13.

teehee

Ok, i didn't read any posts past here since you ask so kindly(3 pleases and i'm from the south) I did a 5 turn with him and ed on 3-13 today, I don't see what jill does better, she like 5HKO's Ike, 20/1 Zihark + an eddy hit with tempest blade killed Ike, so zihark is doing stuff in part 3 added with all he does in Part 1.

@ Queen Elincia, once you use ed seirously it's hard not to love him.

EDIT: i just read Queen Elincia's Log and she 8 turned 3-13, should've blitzed using a 20/20/1 zihark and 20/15 eddy, nah jk =p you did fine

Thats so cool how you 5 turned it honestly the soonest I could finish was 7 turns :( and if I really wanted to risk Jill maybe 6 turns, but I got carried away giving her and Nolan kills before Ike's kill :3. Jill has canto over Zihark and better defenses ;), canto helps her a lot to get back in range to get healed if she's got low hp which helps her survive better imo.

[Shadow Mir]

You have to use him by unconventional means, try to be more creative.

What in Elendia do you mean? My stance on Wrath is pretty obvious by this point, I'd assume (way too risky to use unless your name is Micaiah, and dropping below 30% HP just to get extra crit screams counter-intuitive).

Wait, that hasn't happened already?

I just checked, and Geoffrey's in the top of lower mid, and Soren's at the bottom of middle.