OMG it's a tier list

[Jaybee]

I guess that answers the question.

[charmander6000]

note how she has Dragonfoe

Actually it doesn't, her strength is that good and the dragon's defense is that bad.

[Hexmaster44]

Dragons did get sort of nerfed in this game.

[Martelé]

Actually it doesn't, her strength is that good and the dragon's defense is that bad.

I don't think so. Elincia has 30+5 strength and if Fortify has 0 Mt, it would be (35 atk - 18 damage) = 17 defense, but even a Lv 1 dragon has 18 defense. >_> And since Fortify was flashing in that video, I guess it has some Mt that is tripled.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Marorii

[Colonel M]

This is just speculation, but for Staves Str = Mt for them. But, like I said, I could be totally wrong.

[Shadow Mir]

Actually, staves have 1 Mt and 100 Hit.

[Zkirsche]

To change the topic, I believe that Ena > Kurth. Some chapter evaluations:

4-E-1:

Level 20 Kurth: 55 HP, 42 Atk, 20 AS, 163 Hit, 76 Avo, 30 Def, 30 Res, 21 Ddg

Level 22 Ena: 49 HP, 33 Atk, 22 AS, 165 Hit, 77 Avo, 26 Def, 34 Res, 18 Ddg

Kurth wins offence for more Attack as Ena doesn't double anything anyway.

Defensively, they both get doubled, so Kurth's def boots really stands out as after getting hit twice, Kurth has a 4 HP lead. Yes, there are a few that only double Kurth, and Ena does win against those, but for the majority of enemies that do double both, Kurth wins.

4-E-2

This is such a small chapter it's barely worth mentioning. Kurth's durability leads come into play though as an even higher percentage of enemies double Ena too.

4-E-3

No durability leads, only offensive ones. With 2 levels (Paragon helsp him gain it), Kurth has 44 Atk. With 2 levels (Paragon, too. She should grow slower), Ena has 33 Atk. Kurth's support naturally gives him Atk, too, so it might be higher if he as a 'C' with someone by now. Let's take a white dragon level 26 (71.5 HP, 22-24 Def), and a red dragon level 26 (76 HP, 36 Def). Ena 4RKO's the white dragon and InfiniteRKO's teh red dragon. Kurth on the other hand, 2RKO's the white dragons and 10RKO's the red dragons. Kurth is clearly better offensively.

4-E-4 and 4-E-5

Level 25 Kurth, 'C' Ena: 60 HP, 48 Atk, 24 AS, 168 Hit, 95 Avo, 35 Res, 24 Ddg

Level 25 Ena, 'C' Kurth: 60.5 HP, 36 Atk, 24 AS, 170 Hit, 79 Avo, 37-39 Res, 19 Ddg

Defensively, it's Kurth's 16 Avo to Ena's 2-4 Res and 0.5 HP. Ena wins here, I'll admit. Though Kurth's not doing too bad.

Offensively, Kurth wins again.

This comparison is forgetting one thing: Formshift.

Now onto some other stuff.

Skills wise, Ena has blood tide while Kurth has Night tide. Blood tide is useful, yes, but let's not underestkmate the power of night tide:

Level 20/20 Haar without res boost: 58 HP, 17 Res

Level 20/20 Haar with boost: 58 HP, 22 Res

Level 31 Gareth with Ward wood tile with night tide boost: 82 HP, 33 Res

Level 31 Gareth without wardwood tiles with night tide boost: 82 HP, 23 Res

Level 31 Gareth without any bonus: 82 HP, 18 Res

Level 31 Gareth with wardwood bonus, no night tide bonus: 82HP, 28 Res

The wind spirits have 39 Atk. This means they 3RKO Haar without the def boost given to him. They 4RKO him with night tide active. Then, the fire and thunder spirits have 36 Atk, meaning they 4RKO him without teh res boost, but 5RKO him with the res boost.

Gareth, even with the ward wood tile bonus, gets 4RKO'ed by the wind spirirts and the others 6RKO Gareth on the res tiles without the bonus. With both bonuses, the wind spirits 7RKO Gareth and the other spirits 14RKO Gareth.

Without the wardwood, Gareth gets 2RKO'ed by the wind spirits and 3RKO'ed by everything else. With the res bonus, he gets 3RKO'ed by the wind spirits and 4RKO'ed by everything else.

As you can see both gareth and Haar love the boosts, and helping out Gareth is essentially giving the team an extra blood tide. As you can see, Kurth's Res boost is very useful.

I'm tired of postiung now, so I'll just leave you with the knowledge that Kurth > Ena for the latter 3 chapters (Formshift for E-4 and E-5, better offence in E-3) and equal or slightly worse than Ena for 2 chapters (Superier offence vs superier defence).

Kurth > Ena.

[dondon151]

I guess it has some Mt that is tripled.

Even if it had 0 innate MT, I am sure that it would still flash because of Dragonfoe.

Actually, staves have 1 Mt and 100 Hit.

That would be consistent with Mariorii's reasoning (since it's impossible for Elincia to do even damage if Fortify had 0 MT). This means the site info needs to be changed!

@kirsche: I believe Vykan said earlier to consider magic cards for Ena's player phase offense? Your post also says Ena > Kurth and Kurth > Ena, though I believe you're implying the latter.

Edited June 15, 2009 by dondon151

[Zkirsche]

@kirsche: I believe Vykan said earlier to consider magic cards for Ena's player phase offense?

I'd rather save the money on other, more important things. With magic cards, Ena becomes that much more costly per attack, and you can't counter attack on the enemy phrase with them either.

[dondon151]

But that's a contradiction. First, you get a Daemon Card for free, so that's a free 5 attacks, and you also get a number of the weaker cards for free. With a Daemon Card, Ena ties in MT with Kurth, except she hits on res. If the res gap is greater than or equal to 7 (can't be assed to check stats), Ena does the same amount of damage with Spectre Card, which costs 200G per use. Second, if Ena attacks on player phase only, she won't need that many cards anyway, and the army certainly does get enough money to satiate her low demand.

I'm also seeing no Blood Tide being considered in your comparison. If you really wish for a fair argument, shouldn't you dedicate the same amount of effort for both skills? Your Night Tide argument revolves solely around two units, one of whom might not even go to endgame, while Blood Tide helps everyone, especially considering that most enemies in endgame (generals, dragons) are incredibly durable on the physical end.

[Zkirsche]

But that's a contradiction. First, you get a Daemon Card for free, so that's a free 5 attacks, and you also get a number of the weaker cards for free. With a Daemon Card, Ena ties in MT with Kurth, except she hits on res. If the res gap is greater than or equal to 7 (can't be assed to check stats), Ena does the same amount of damage with Spectre Card, which costs 200G per use. Second, if Ena attacks on player phase only, she won't need that many cards anyway, and the army certainly does get enough money to satiate her low demand.

You can sell the cards so that still costs the team.

Whilst the demand is low, the fact is that for the majority of teh time, Kurth does better offensively, so Kurth is better offensively overall.

Also, magic cards don't help in 4-E-4 or onwards and makes her weak against the white dragons in 4-E-3.

I'm also seeing no Blood Tide being considered in your comparison. If you really wish for a fair argument, shouldn't you dedicate the same amount of effort for both skills? Your Night Tide argument revolves solely around two units, one of whom might not even go to endgame, while Blood Tide helps everyone, especially considering that most enemies in endgame (generals, dragons) are incredibly durable on the physical end.

Blood tide is useful, yes

I did say it was useful, but i was also showing that night tide was useful. If i didn't, I'd have a million "Blood tide >>>>> Night tide" rubbish, which isn't true. Blodd tide is only slightly better than Night tide. My point was that Kurth actually allows a blood tide, which gives him essentially the usefulness of both for E-4 and E-5.

Also, Haar uses Urvan or Brave axe/Lance. I doubt he's not going.

[dondon151]

You can sell the cards so that still costs the team.

That's great, except now it costs the team half as much as it would normally have and Ena has low demand.

Whilst the demand is low, the fact is that for the majority of teh time, Kurth does better offensively, so Kurth is better offensively overall.

Kurth only does better offensively on enemy phase, and this is overlooking the fact that he's probably the second worst offensive unit on the team anyway.

Also, magic cards don't help in 4-E-4 or onwards and makes her weak against the white dragons in 4-E-3.

Black Breath makes Kurth weak against red dragons in 4-E-3 and who actually doesn't go for like a 2 turn completion of 4-E-4? And, the dragons are much more useful in 4-E-5 using their skills (Ena is far superior here) than attacking.

I did say it was useful, but i was also showing that night tide was useful. If i didn't, I'd have a million "Blood tide >>>>> Night tide" rubbish, which isn't true. Blodd tide is only slightly better than Night tide. My point was that Kurth actually allows a blood tide, which gives him essentially the usefulness of both for E-4 and E-5.

You basically passed off Blood Tide and hyped on how Night Tide changed stuff from like a 6HKO to a 14HKO which, impressive as it sounds, has very little actual impact because 6HKO on a wardwood tile is already satisfactory. Meanwhile, Blood Tide has been converting 2RKOs into ORKOs in 4-E-1 and 4-E-3 and greatly contributes to finishing 4-E-5 in a swift fashion whereas Night Tide just lets you stall more.

I don't see how Blood Tide is "only slightly better than" Night Tide.

[Interceptor]

Again, WRT gold for cards: if you're having money problems at a time when you get access to Ena, you are Doing It Wrong<tm>. You have a stupid amount of gold just prior to Endgame, and literally you are at your last chance to use it before it disappears forever. I have playthroughs where I land at 4-E-1 with a six-digit bank account and nothing really to spend it on except backup 1-2 range forges that I won't use and Physics that I won't use.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Interceptor

[Zkirsche]

That's great, except now it costs the team half as much as it would normally have and Ena has low demand.

So cost doesn't matter.

Kurth only does better offensively on enemy phase, and this is overlooking the fact that he's probably the second worst offensive unit on the team anyway.

Second to Ena. Thus he's better than Ena. Just because he's bad doesn't mean he's worse than Ena, because he's better than Ena on the enemy phrase - where most of the combat is played out.

Black Breath makes Kurth weak against red dragons in 4-E-3 and who actually doesn't go for like a 2 turn completion of 4-E-4? And, the dragons are much more useful in 4-E-5 using their skills (Ena is far superior here) than attacking.

@Bold: They can do both, can't they?

Also, Kurth is still better overall due to better enemy phrase and arguably equal player phrase - Ena good against Red dragons, Kurth against White. Kurth still wins overall.

You basically passed off Blood Tide and hyped on how Night Tide changed stuff from like a 6HKO to a 14HKO which, impressive as it sounds, has very little actual impact because 6HKO on a wardwood tile is already satisfactory. Meanwhile, Blood Tide has been converting 2RKOs into ORKOs in 4-E-1 and 4-E-3 and greatly contributes to finishing 4-E-5 in a swift fashion whereas Night Tide just lets you stall more.

Here we go with the blood tide hyping. Might as well get this over and done with:

Level 20/10 Ike with Ragnell, 'A' Mia: 54 Atk

Level 20/13 Haar with the Brave Axe, 'A' Titania: 49 Atk, 28 AS

Level 20/13 Shinon with the Silencer, 'A' Gatrie: 47 Atk

Level 20/13 Titania with Urvan, 'A' Haar: 56 Atk, 31 AS

Level 20/8 Zihark with the Vague Katti: 47 Atk

17* Axe Gen lvl 14: 50 HP, 30 Def, 25 AS

6* Lance Gen lvl 14: 50 HP, 31 Def, 26 AS

6* Swd Gen lvl 14: 50 HP, 31 Def, 26 AS

Titania ORKO's all of these. With a blood tide, Neither Haar, Shinon or Zihark can change their 2RKO's into a ORKO. If Ike is just two levels higher (Not unlikely with paragon use), he ORKO's all of these two. But I suppose Ike does benefit. W00t 1 unit.

Also, Kurth's flying utility allows him to reach allies better to activate night tide.

About gareth, Gareth gets targetted a lot due to pathetic res. So yeah, getting 14RKO'ed by thunder and fire spirirts is good. Plus, teh wind spirirts go from a 4RKO to a 7RKO. A noticable and important improvement.

I don't see how Blood Tide is "only slightly better than" Night Tide.

Hopefully, now you can. Only 1 unit of the 5 I mentioned benefitted from blood tide.

Blood tide is nothing more than a small advantage, if one at that.

Edited June 15, 2009 by kirsche

[Florete]

Titania ORKO's all of these. With a blood tide, Neither Haar, Shinon or Zihark can change their 2RKO's into a ORKO. If Ike is just two levels higher (Not unlikely with paragon use), he ORKO's all of these two. But I suppose Ike does benefit. W00t 1 unit.

Thus whatever they don't kill is made easier for someone else to kill.

Also, Kurth's flying utility allows him to reach allies better to activate night tide.

Lol? Kurth has 5 move transformed.

About gareth, Gareth gets targetted a lot due to pathetic res. So yeah, getting 14RKO'ed by thunder and fire spirirts is good. Plus, teh wind spirirts go from a 4RKO to a 7RKO. A noticable and important improvement.

So you use Night Tide to help a Blood Tide user survive. Why?

Also, Kurth's offense might be better than Ena's without Cards (I haven't looked into Ena's card offense), but it still sucks. Kurth's suck offense and Night Tide have to be better than Ena's card offense and Blood Tide, and I really don't see that happening.

Just for kicks, Ena has a better affinity. Earth>Water.

[Zkirsche]

Thus whatever they don't kill is made easier for someone else to kill.

I think you fail to see the scenario here, ANY unit who's fielded endgame shoudl be 1-2RKO'ing. Those units can all get a kill after any of each other's attacks.

Lol? Kurth has 5 move transformed.

Lol? There are holes to fly over.

So you use Night Tide to help a Blood Tide user survive. Why?

Because it gives Kurth the worth of that Blood tide user, because otehrwise, that blood tide user would die or be benched. Plus, 2 blood tide users are better than on.

Blood + Night Tides > Blood tide.

Also, Kurth's offense might be better than Ena's without Cards (I haven't looked into Ena's card offense), but it still sucks. Kurth's suck offense and Night Tide have to be better than Ena's card offense and Blood Tide, and I really don't see that happening.

Kurth's normal offence is still better on the enemy phrase is still superier and blood tide is severely overrated. Also, in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5, Kurth's def-attacking is better than Ena's def or res attacking.

Kurth's offence is better than Ena's in 4-E-3 onwards due to Ena's worse normal offence yet equal player phrase offence (Kurth better against Whites, Ena better against reds). So it's really how you weigh up a slight victory in 4-E-2 (lol) and 4-E-1 against Kurth's small victories in 4-E-3, 4 and 5.

Just for kicks, Ena has a better affinity. Earth>Water.

They support each other. No advanatge there.

[Florete]

Lol? There are holes to fly over.

In a whopping two maps, one of which (4-E-3) probably won't make him any more useful.

Because it gives Kurth the worth of that Blood tide user, because otehrwise, that blood tide user would die or be benched. Plus, 2 blood tide users are better than on.

Blood + Night Tides > Blood tide.

That's not helping his case much, only hurting Gareth. Also, Pure Water.

Kurth's normal offence is still better on the enemy phrase is still superier and blood tide is severely overrated. Also, in 4-E-4 and 4-E-5, Kurth's def-attacking is better than Ena's def or res attacking.

Any competent Endgame character can ORKO Spirits (Even Sothe can), or, if they need the Speed, that's what Nasir does. Ena might even help is someone is short for some reason. Kurth has no advantages here.

Kurth's offence is better than Ena's in 4-E-3 onwards due to Ena's worse normal offence yet equal player phrase offence (Kurth better against Whites, Ena better against reds). So it's really how you weigh up a slight victory in 4-E-2 (lol) and 4-E-1 against Kurth's small victories in 4-E-3, 4 and 5.

I don't see Kurth having victories anywhere. If you admit she has advantages in 1 and 2, then they're even in 3 (which I disagree with), then Blood Tide > Kurth for the rest. It's not just the damage, +5 Skl means +10 hit, and Auras have high avoid.

They support each other. No advanatge there.

And what if they don't? What if Renning is around? Those two will love each other. Possibly Caineghis or Giffca also. Or maybe Volke.

[Zkirsche]

In a whopping two maps, one of which (4-E-3) probably won't make him any more useful.

I was only talking about 4-E-1.

That's not helping his case much, only hurting Gareth. Also, Pure Water.

I'm sure Gareth has better things to do than waste his player phrases.

Any competent Endgame character can ORKO Spirits (Even Sothe can), or, if they need the Speed, that's what Nasir does. Ena might even help is someone is short for some reason. Kurth has no advantages here.

Statistics. I'm the only one who given any. I've hsown how night tide helps the durabiltiy of two units - one of which helps a top tier unti and the otehr a unti that has similar abilities as Ena. Making Blood tide not unique to Ena. Night tide is always unique to Kurthnaga.

I don't see Kurth having victories anywhere. If you admit she has advantages in 1 and 2, then they're even in 3 (which I disagree with), then Blood Tide > Kurth for the rest. It's not just the damage, +5 Skl means +10 hit, and Auras have high avoid.

I've shown reasoning why they're equal in 4-E-3. You got any for ena > Kurth?

How is Kurth being better offensively and having himself the worth of both blood and night tide possibly worse than just having blood tide. Please, do give details.

Kurth gives you everything Ena has AND MORE in 4-E-4 and E-5.

And what if they don't? What if Renning is around? Those two will love each other. Possibly Caineghis or Giffca also. Or maybe Volke.

They match mov, they join at the same time, they're both bonus-giving units. It's not hard to realise that their each other's perfect match.

Ena x Kurthnaga, anyone?

[-Cynthia-]

You can't completely nullify an affinity lead by saying "they support each other", since there are cases where they don't support each other and thus one is providing better bonuses than the other. It's Earth vs. Water though, so not a big win for Ena.

I don't really want get involved here, I agree with Red Fox for the record, but I already did a whole Ena vs. Kurth debate. Though even if Kurth wins the last 2 maps (he has worse durability than Ena here for the record), he's losing the first 3 Endgame maps (Blood Tide helps more than Night Tide vs. Degh).

[Zkirsche]

he's losing the first 3 Endgame maps (Blood Tide helps more than Night Tide vs. Degh).

But that's one enemy. Kurth has teh rest of the enemies to be better against. Thus, Kurth wins overall.

[Florete]

I'm sure Gareth has better things to do than waste his player phrases.

No, not really. He just has to exist for people to use Blood Tide, which is probably the only reason he gets fielded.

Statistics. I'm the only one who given any. I've hsown how night tide helps the durabiltiy of two units - one of which helps a top tier unti and the otehr a unti that has similar abilities as Ena. Making Blood tide not unique to Ena. Night tide is always unique to Kurthnaga.

Because this case has been gone over about 3 times previously, though I think the big one was lost in the time warp. Besides, as I recall, you were turning 6HKOs into something crazy, but being 6HKO when we have the likes of Physic, Fortify, etc. isn't anywhere near bad.

I've shown reasoning why they're equal in 4-E-3. You got any for ena > Kurth?

Not at the moment. I'm too lazy to look up stats right now.

How is Kurth being better offensively and having himself the worth of both blood and night tide possibly worse than just having blood tide. Please, do give details.

He doesn't have the worth of Blood Tide and his offense still sucks. That's how.

Kurth gives you everything Ena has AND MORE in 4-E-4 and E-5.

This makes no sense. I don't need Kurth to use Gareth. If I did, then I could just go with Ena instead of Kurth + Gareth and have room for another nub unit like Sanaki.

They match mov, they join at the same time, they're both bonus-giving units. It's not hard to realise that their each other's perfect match.

Ena x Kurthnaga, anyone?

Cynthia covered it well.

[-Cynthia-]

But that's one enemy. Kurth has teh rest of the enemies to be better against. Thus, Kurth wins overall.

I would think that people would get more benefit from +10 atk(letting them possibly 2HKO Dragons), than from 5 Def(most of surviving dragons is Avo based), don't really feel like bringing up statistics since you can bring everyone to Endgame and stats vary so much. Also, killing Degh is how we clear the chapter and it's relatively difficult to do, so it's rather important.

How does Kurth give a Blood Tide boost again?

Edited June 15, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Mekkah]

Blood Tide's major drawing point isn't ORKOing Generals in 4-E-1, it's hitting in the last two maps, and doing +10 damage with people who double Auras. And hitting is really hard, apparently. cba to pull exact numbers though, but I do recall Ike has like 60-70 display hit on Ashera with Ragnell, max skl, luck and high bio. And Ashera is gonna bonzai on him if he misses.

[Vykan12]

And those are precisely the reasons Gareth shouldn't be anywhere near bottom tier.

Being pretty useful in a few maps > sucking horribly in many, though there is a subjective element to that.

[dondon151]

Second to Ena. Thus he's better than Ena. Just because he's bad doesn't mean he's worse than Ena, because he's better than Ena on the enemy phrase - where most of the combat is played out.

No, actually, him being bad means that he shouldn't see combat on enemy phase. Using either of them for combat involves a giant negative opportunity cost because everyone can do combat miles better. So great, Kurth has better offense than Ena. Does it actually matter?

Here we go with the blood tide hyping. Might as well get this over and done with:

Level 20/10 Ike with Ragnell, 'A' Mia: 54 Atk

Level 20/13 Haar with the Brave Axe, 'A' Titania: 49 Atk, 28 AS

Level 20/13 Shinon with the Silencer, 'A' Gatrie: 47 Atk

Level 20/13 Titania with Urvan, 'A' Haar: 56 Atk, 31 AS

Level 20/8 Zihark with the Vague Katti: 47 Atk

17* Axe Gen lvl 14: 50 HP, 30 Def, 25 AS

6* Lance Gen lvl 14: 50 HP, 31 Def, 26 AS

6* Swd Gen lvl 14: 50 HP, 31 Def, 26 AS

Titania ORKO's all of these. With a blood tide, Neither Haar, Shinon or Zihark can change their 2RKO's into a ORKO. If Ike is just two levels higher (Not unlikely with paragon use), he ORKO's all of these two. But I suppose Ike does benefit. W00t 1 unit.

A unit needs 51 to 55 atk to benefit from Blood Tide. All right.

20/13 Shinon with max forge Silver Bow can muster 51 atk. Or, more levels with less atk Silver Bow.

20/13 Mia with A Ike and Vague Katti has 52 atk.

20/13 Oscar with A Boyd and Wishblade has 53 atk.

20/8 Jill with A Volug and Urvan has 52 atk.

20/13 Haar with A Titania and Hammer has 77 atk (82 atk is an OHKO).

32 Janaff with A Ulki and SS strike has 54 atk.

33 Nailah supportless and SS strike has 54 atk.

So apparently you're sandbagging Blood Tide.

Edited June 16, 2009 by dondon151