OMG it's a tier list

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I'm guessing this'll fall on deaf ears again but whatever...

To make it easier for people to search and find previous arguments as explanation for why X is on Y tier and such, here's a couple of suggestions.

1. The person editing the tier list should saying what changes are made whenever it's done. In that post (I'll call it Post X for the purpose of this), link the arguments that influenced the move. Hyperlink the character's name on the tier list so it leads to the latest Post X regarding that character.

2. Refer to the transfer characters as "Name(T)" as opposed to "Name (T)" as you've been doing, in other words, just ditch that space. Why? Because you can't search the latter with the search function.

3. Refer to 3 letter characters as "NameXX". IkeXX for example. Same for the transfers, Ike transfer should be "IkeXX(T)" since "Ike(T)" can't be found with the search function.

These are not rules or guidelines, these are just suggestions for your own convenience.

Out of curiosity (as in, I'm not debating a damn thing, just asking), why are Ulki and Janaff that high?

Edited July 8, 2010 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

Out of curiosity (as in, I'm not debating a damn thing, just asking), why are Ulki and Janaff that high?

They come at 3-7 which is terrain-fucky river and they're showing up already transformed and capable of flight. They have such ludicrous speed that A. They put amazing use to speed skills such as Adept, B. They are pretty much untouchable.

On top of it, Janaff's an Energy Drop away from essentially ORKOing everything (save generals and perhaps wyvern lords, of which I think he's off by a few point...An offense support like Ulki). Ulki's one level away from Tear, of which can stack greatly with Adept.

On top of it, due to flight, the only person they're falling behind is Haar, the only guy who actually effects turn count more than half the time. Having an easy way to make his job easier is delicious.

[Mekkah]

Janaff is a level removed from Tear. Ulki has two to go. And "terrain-fucky" is not a valid expression on this side of the internet. But yeah, flying laguz that double everything and are only a little bit of favouritism (Energy Drop, BEXP, Adept, Wrath, Resolve, etc) removed from ORKOing reliably.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Mekkah

[Florete]

No arguments existed since nobody ever bothered. Many of the (T) units were just placed on the list with RF's best effort based on the improvements. Nobody ever really said anything. I think her assumption was that a few spots on the list is valid considering rather than needing a few levels to not get doubled, she simply doesn't get doubled from the start. That's a reasonable improvement. Hence the gap between (N) and (T).

Precisely.

I'm guessing this'll fall on deaf ears again but whatever...

What? I don't remember even seeing any of this before.

1. The person editing the tier list should saying what changes are made whenever it's done. In that post (I'll call it Post X for the purpose of this), link the arguments that influenced the move. Hyperlink the character's name on the tier list so it leads to the latest Post X regarding that character.

I'd have done that at the start had I known the topic would end up so big....Better late than never, I suppose (of course, this is now Narga's job, so...).

2. Refer to the transfer characters as "Name(T)" as opposed to "Name (T)" as you've been doing, in other words, just ditch that space. Why? Because you can't search the latter with the search function.

3. Refer to 3 letter characters as "NameXX". IkeXX for example. Same for the transfers, Ike transfer should be "IkeXX(T)" since "Ike(T)" can't be found with the search function.

Gotcha. Now we all just have to remember.

Also, edited into the OP.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Dr. Tarrasque]

What? I don't remember even seeing any of this before.

Not here. I briefly mentioned suggestion 1 in a different tier list (FESD IIRC).

@Jackal: When do the 2 start falling, as in, not being as good as they started out to be?

[grandjackal]

@Jackal: When do the 2 start falling, as in, not being as good as they started out to be?

Last I recall, good money says never. At best, them not being royals and needing Laguz Gems to get by for Endgame has them gone by Endgame.

In fact, what the hell is Gatrie doing above them?

Edited July 8, 2010 by Master Tang

[dondon151]

Janaff's base AS lets him double auras with Nasir support. Ulki's base AS lets him double every common enemy in the game bar 4-E-2 swordmasters.

Janaff is 2 str and a strike level (or 2 strike levels) away from ORKOing the toughest halberdiers in 4-4. Ulki needs 2 more str than Janaff. Pretty beastly offense in every way imaginable.

[RNG Princess]

what about Naesala vs Hawks (not Tibarn)

who would be more convenient to bring in endgame? I like the royals never depend on olivi grass/stones/gems so thats one point that Cain is a little better than Giffca, unless you use the gem on him which equals them out.

[Psych]

You could simply take Giffca's gem, and the one in the desert and give it to the hawks so that transforming isn't an arguing point in the sake of fairness.

[grandjackal]

Janaff's base AS lets him double auras with Nasir support. Ulki's base AS lets him double every common enemy in the game bar 4-E-2 swordmasters.

Janaff is 2 str and a strike level (or 2 strike levels) away from ORKOing the toughest halberdiers in 4-4. Ulki needs 2 more str than Janaff. Pretty beastly offense in every way imaginable.

More eloquently put than how I said it, as formerly pointed out by Mekkah.

However, I still have a question. Does Gatrie needing levels and a crown to be great but still immobile really put him over the likes of Nailah's 1-E contributions and so forth, or the fact that Janaff and Ulki arrive needing less favoritism and getting better results out of it since they actually are capable of contributing as much as Haar?

You could simply take Giffca's gem, and the one in the desert and give it to the hawks so that transforming isn't an arguing point in the sake of fairness.

You'd be surprised how much a problem it can make things. Taking a gem from Giffca and our dragons for tides/pools without as much fear of death cna be seen as a pretty big problem.

[Psych]

But that would be for comparing Naesala and the Hawks. Not how the others do. And Nasir comes with his own gem.

[Fenrir]

What? I don't remember even seeing any of this before.

even though he said it was posted in another forum, you are acting exactly like the deaf ears he claimed it to fall upon. i found it somewhat ironic

Last I recall, good money says never. At best, them not being royals and needing Laguz Gems to get by for Endgame has them gone by Endgame.

In fact, what the hell is Gatrie doing above them?

Gatrie joining early is his advantage I am guessing. However i would have absolutely no problem with Hawks > Gatrie. I love the hawks, some of my favorite characters.

[Anouleth]

I always had difficulty getting Ulki/Janaff's strike rank up. Probably because I don't use them enough.

Not that it matters. I just threw BEXP at them until they got Tear. Offense problems: solved!

[-Cynthia-]

Hawks aren't very good for Endgame, probably will never reach SS Strike, have to transform, have no 1-2 range, skill activations don't help kill auras etc.

Keep in mind that the availability leads of Gatrie/Shinon etc. are not trivial. It's 6 chapters, which is more than the chapters that Ulki and Janaff exist for in Part 3 (and their performance in 3-7 can be handwaved, since there's no way to speed that chapter up).

[Maou]

even though he said it was posted in another forum, you are acting exactly like the deaf ears he claimed it to fall upon. i found it somewhat ironic

So RFoF has to frequent every board on this site in order to not be considered ignorant? Try posting something insightful to the tier list instead of making a sad attempt to humiliate someone.

[Fenrir]

So RFoF has to frequent every board on this site in order to not be considered ignorant? Try posting something insightful to the tier list instead of making a sad attempt to humiliate someone.

Same goes for you. What i was actually saying was that it was just ironic that you would say, "i dont remember anything like this" i was trying to humiliate no one, why don'y you post something helpful to the conversation please.

@-Cynthia- While what you say is true, the same applies for Gatrie, is he really that helpful for endgame? no, the hawks proably beat him. The real question is, is 3-P though 3-5 for Gatrie make up the difference compared to the hawks' 3-7 through 3-E and their P4.

[grandjackal]

Keep in mind that the availability leads of Gatrie/Shinon etc. are not trivial. It's 6 chapters, which is more than the chapters that Ulki and Janaff exist for in Part 3 (and their performance in 3-7 can be handwaved, since there's no way to speed that chapter up).

What IS Gatrie doing during that earlygame availability? 3-P he's limited by starting near the back in a map with plenty of thickets, and fighting with people ahead of him with better mobility/range fighting to better reach enemies/high mobility units like Ti and Oscar.

Granted, 3-2 is to his advantage in that there is a quick way to the north enemies that he can choke up immediately nearby. However, it could be claimed that there are people better suited to go that way, such as Ike or Mia, as to better mow through the enemies since Gatrie's non-forged accuracy and one shot to land is god awful when fighting through schrubs. Gatling Cannon here has about 51 base hit, an iron lance and steel greatlance for 132 and 121 respectively, adding 15 from Ike's leadership.

1x Halberdier lvl 7 (Steel Lance)

HP 36, Atk 29, AS 19, Hit 130, Avo 50, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 14, Ddg 12

1x Halberdier lvl 6 (Steel Lance)

HP 35, Atk 28, AS 19, Hit 130, Avo 50, DEF 17, RES 13, Crit 14, Ddg 12

3x Halberdier lvl 7 (Steel Greatlance, one has Vulnerary)

HP 36, Atk 33, AS 19, Hit 121, Avo 51, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 14, Ddg 13

2x Halberdier lvl 7 (Short Spear)

HP 36, Atk 29, AS 19, Hit 105, Avo 50, DEF 18, RES 13, Crit 14, Ddg 12

Most of these guys come from the north to halt your progress. His best in the schrubs is 71-72 before bio, and he 3RKOs with iron. Break out the greatlance, that's a shaky 60-61 displayed. Ike's 36 might and 23 AS kills them in one go. Therefore it's logical to assume he is doing more in the schrubs, and that Gatrie going up there is not all that great. All that's left is going to the right, of which our more mobile units will be doing more, or going south to take on the generals. Granted though, he's probably best for that since Ti and Oscar have better things to do, but even then he only doubles half hte generals, since the other half has 18 AS.

3-2 we now have a wide open battlefield with access to Titania, Lethe, Oscar, Mordecai and Haar. You could say he's got more mobile options now, but to what credit? There are people with better offense that can survive just fine, and I would think they'd have a better reason to be transported over The Cannon. Even not considering transportation, our mobile units are going to see action first.

3-3 is the same story, though instead of a wide open battlefield, it's a rush to certain points. Needing to be transported and denying our mobile untis player phase to help bust enemies and canto onward can be debilitating.

3-4's a cliff heavy land mass with a long stretch of land to traverse. Since there's little action up until the summit, transportation could still be a good thing. However, this again is limited by the fact we have mobile units, this time joining us are Ranulf and Kyza. Yes, Kyza. His 22 AS and high mobility helps us bust the clif with the ballista by taking out the mages. And he can.

2x Wind Sage lvl 10 (Elwind)

HP 33, Atk 28, AS 18, Hit 136, Avo 48, DEF 12, RES 17, Crit 8, Ddg 12

1x Thunder Sage lvl 11 (Elthunder)

HP 34, Atk 26, AS 18, Hit 123, Avo 48, DEF 12, RES 17, Crit 19, Ddg 12

Kyza's 30 might ORKOs them. Since Gatrie can't double to ORKO (unless he somehow got 4 levels in the span of 4 of which he's not even good in most of them), and Kyza gets there first, it's safe to say that Kyza's capable of being more helpful than Gatrie here due to helping Ranulf easier get to the arrival point, as less is in his way.

Then there's 3-5 which is a defense chapter. That would be nice for him if we weren't capable of ending the chapter early by taking Lombrosso's head off his shoulders. He'd need 4 levels to double a minority of the paladins blocking Lombrosso, and he'd need 5 to double the majority but still not all, of which he'd need a crown right after. On the other hand, Titania could just wing it and be capable of the same with no levels, all while still being capable of ORKOing with a Steel forge, same with Haar (well, sorta, unless you can manage 3 levels to most likely get 1 speed before a wing).

Then we have 3-7, when the hawks show up. We're then comparing to the only fliers we have outside of Haar to a person who can't even continue beyond halfway through this fight because armors can't traverse river terrain without aid of...flight. How's Gatrie gonna sell himself from this point forward?

Overall, it's basically my belief that Gatrie suffers the same fate as most armors. While he's capable of being good when trained, a trait not common with armors, he's still too immobile and half the time not worth it for transport in comparison to others. Even if he is transported, he's still not capable of doing so much as to be astounding.

Hawks don't need training, they don't need transport, they don't need crowns. One just wants Energy Drops and the other wants some BEXP for a mastery, skills that they have more activation rate than anyone else with and hte occasional grassing.

[dondon151]

Hawks aren't very good for Endgame, probably will never reach SS Strike, have to transform, have no 1-2 range, skill activations don't help kill auras etc.

Keep in mind that the availability leads of Gatrie/Shinon etc. are not trivial. It's 6 chapters, which is more than the chapters that Ulki and Janaff exist for in Part 3 (and their performance in 3-7 can be handwaved, since there's no way to speed that chapter up).

Gatrie is not exactly important in most of his exclusive chapters, though. He works well on like the first 3 turns of 3-P and then gets left behind due to the thickets and having 1 less move than most other combat units. He's great in 3-1. 3-2, gets left behind starting turn 1 and usually doesn't end up doing anything other than training. 3-3, he's useful if you drop him with Haar somewhere in the upper reaches of the map because he doesn't have to worry about dying. 3-4, ledges and mobility are terrible. 3-5, left behind starting turn 1 and just gets some EXP for himself.

Hawks are great for the rest of their maps. 3-7 is training for strike. 3-8 is rout and with their durability, offense, and mobility, they are great. 3-10 is rout, same deal. 3-11 is seize and they are probably only bested by Haar for mobility and offense. 3-F is more training. They are great in all of the part 4 maps, with clean ORKOs in reach on 4-4 and sublime mobility regardless of terrain, be they ledges, sandbags, thickets, or desert.

Gatrie kind of pales in comparison. Yes, you can use him on routs, but the more important element is killing the enemies that are far away, which not everyone can do. He's plagued by mobility problems no matter where he goes, and he typically encounters offensive problems as well due to his middling speed base and poor speed cap. His base level is 11 away from 3rd tier promotion and at least Titania and Haar are superior options over him for the first Master Crown (especially Haar - Celerity AND Savior? Yes!), so the speed cap is a big problem.

[-Cynthia-]

I would be inclined to put Gatrie down to right above Shinon, I was just pointing out that the availability lead does matter. It's the reason that I think Titania and Mia should stay above the hawks (since Ulki/Janaff are argubly better in almost all their shared chapters).

Gauge issues aren't insignificant though. A lot is made of cat gauge, but other laguz gagues still require grassing, which loses us player phases, which is not good obviously (alternatively it limits the amount of enemies they can handle on the enemy phase).

Edited July 9, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Shadow Mir]

3-2 we now have a wide open battlefield with access to Titania, Lethe, Oscar, Mordecai and Haar. You could say he's got more mobile options now, but to what credit? There are people with better offense that can survive just fine, and I would think they'd have a better reason to be transported over The Cannon. Even not considering transportation, our mobile units are going to see action first.

Lethe and Mordecai don't join until 3-4.

[dondon151]

Well, I can't say much about Mia, but Titania is good in 3-P, 3-2, and 3-4 (well, what part she can access, anyway, and she does still have 9 move up the entire left side), and doesn't have to rely on Haar in 3-3. Mia has been underwhelming for me, but I haven't been quick at getting her that Ike support, and her offense has been fairly reliable for when it mattered, although given the nature of my strategies and my preference for movement, it usually amounts to her killing just that enemy that I need killed.

Gatrie has been useful, but not very gamebreaking. Except in 3-3 I guess, when I gave him Provoke and dropped him in the north on turn 2 so Haar could move around unscathed. That worked more beautifully than I had thought.

Gauge issues aren't insignificant though. A lot is made of cat gauge, but other laguz gagues still require grassing, which loses us player phases, which is not good obviously (alternatively it limits the amount of enemies they can handle on the enemy phase).

Hawk gauge is -4/turn -3/combat. A hawk can face 4 enemies on enemy phase per turn and almost break even with grassing on player phase (-1 net, but you still have a 15 point surplus to begin with). Now, if you're implying that your hawk always faces at least 4 enemies per turn, and has roughly 5 enemy phases to work with per map, then I think we're in business. Because that's 20 enemies, 40 strike WEXP, and your hawks will get to SS strike in no time.

Granted, player phases suck. But unless you're executing a strategy with the hawks that involves something other than attacking, it's not a big deal. And consider that for all of the maps in which the hawks exist, you have access to a heron of some sort, and the hawks are easy to refresh.

Edited July 9, 2010 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Yeah, posting to support Sirius's idea. I liked it back in that other forum that I won't say to prevent getting in trouble.

Regardless, I think it's time for Gatrie to drop. The only real solution for him seems to be Celerity, and even then we'd have to consider if he's even the best recipient of the skill.

Also, as dumb as this sounds (not going to advocate it being useful), but the whole "Wrath being useful" reminded me of Soren for some stupid reason. I haven't played much to really attest to it being useful and likely it won't be very useful but... maybe? 28 HP | 9 Def isn't a lot to work with, so one hit should be enough to put him into Wrath Range. Forged Thunder tome to help with the Crit chances.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Colonel M

[dondon151]

Also, as dumb as this sounds (not going to advocate it being useful), but the whole "Wrath being useful" reminded me of Soren for some stupid reason. I haven't played much to really attest to it being useful and likely it won't be very useful but... maybe? 28 HP | 9 Def isn't a lot to work with, so one hit should be enough to put him into Wrath Range. Forged Thunder tome to help with the Crit chances.

Good point. Aside from the fact that Soren's mobility is bad, you need 29-36 atk to put him in Wrath range in one shot, and many enemies have that at the beginning of part 3. Not entirely implausible.

Edited July 9, 2010 by dondon151

[Interceptor]

Well, I can't say much about Mia, but Titania is good in 3-P, 3-2, and 3-4 (well, what part she can access, anyway, and she does still have 9 move up the entire left side), and doesn't have to rely on Haar in 3-3. Mia has been underwhelming for me, but I haven't been quick at getting her that Ike support, and her offense has been fairly reliable for when it mattered, although given the nature of my strategies and my preference for movement, it usually amounts to her killing just that enemy that I need killed.

I hate to keep making this same point in the same thread, but you keep bringing it up, so here I go again. You're getting a skewed view of what characters are capable of doing, because nobody is growing stats. Mia never had the chance to proc STR for 3-1, can't reach 3HKO or murder Generals in 3-3, and won't have the opportunity to beast any of the later maps (especially the Routs), etc.

[Colonel M]

I hate to keep making this same point in the same thread, but you keep bringing it up, so here I go again. You're getting a skewed view of what characters are capable of doing, because nobody is growing stats. Mia never had the chance to proc STR for 3-1, can't reach 3HKO or murder Generals in 3-3, and won't have the opportunity to beast any of the later maps (especially the Routs), etc.

To be fair, I think he's aware of the situation with Mia needing growths (as well as other units). Just speaking of not jumping the gun just yet.