OMG it's a tier list

[Fenrir]

I like the thought of Gatrie just above shinnon, i definitly think the Hawks are better, Nolan is better, neph(t) is better and i like zihark more I don't know if other people do though...

Somebody said that Haar/Titan want crown more than Gatrie, but is this entirely true? Haar doesn't NEED to be promoted until 3-7, we can steal crown from zihark and just not use him to majorly here, it IS a survive so he's not helping turns...

The reason he doesn't though, is because of 3-5 being almost all horses armours and mages and Haar wants crown mostly for speed boost.

Titan i have a little amount of experiance in using her so i would need someone to explain to me when she wants crown.(but she does only start 4-5 lvls off promotion)

[grandjackal]

I would be inclined to put Gatrie down to right above Shinon, I was just pointing out that the availability lead does matter. It's the reason that I think Titania and Mia should stay above the hawks (since Ulki/Janaff are argubly better in almost all their shared chapters).

I'd be inclined to say he should drop below Shinon for several reasons.

A. Shinon can actually kill things without training, though at the start it's thanks to the Killer bow, it's better than Gatrie's answer of taking the Killer Axe away from our more mobile Titania, or even freaking Boyd. The range also gives him this offense with a greater reach, picking off people that are not quite in kill reach of some of your other units, all while doing this with greater accuracy. Then factor in something like a Steelforge giving him almost-Silencer might before the damn thing's even available. Gatrie does need training to pull that off, since he needs the speed to double in the first place.

B. Better mobility, so he can actually reach his enemies.

C. Easier to BEXP abuse into crown, as he's a real cheap investment with that considered.

D. When at tier 3, along with the stat boosts, he gets more crit, a mastery, and most importantly 3 range of which could help him make up for non-cav/flier mobility with outstanding target reach.

E. Easily endgame viable thanks to Double Bow giving him 1-3 range, and fun tricks like Dragonfoe Arbalest, or attacking auras from 3 spaces away while still using dragon tides and pools, allowing us a very flexible unit to position in accordance.

Even if trained, what do we get out of Gatrie the Gatling Cannon? Great combat parameters sure, but with still average move outside of terrain problems. 3-8's a route of which we would like to spread the love around so he's fari there, 3-10 of which is a huge race to reach and kill the boss so he's out of luck there, 3-11 which is the bridge of flight utility greatness (and again, would be great to have someone pro at shooting over pit areas and those sandbag walls here), and 3-E which is basically completely done by the NPCs.

If we're gonna talk about Part 4, enlighten me in what Gatrie can do before Endgame where Shinon shoves his boot firmly up Gatrie's ass.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Master Tang

[dondon151]

I hate to keep making this same point in the same thread, but you keep bringing it up, so here I go again. You're getting a skewed view of what characters are capable of doing, because nobody is growing stats. Mia never had the chance to proc STR for 3-1, can't reach 3HKO or murder Generals in 3-3, and won't have the opportunity to beast any of the later maps (especially the Routs), etc.

I am well aware of that, but the problems are not related to whether she is at the proper level to reach #HKO or anything like that. Her offense, when I needed it, has been fine. Sure, it's annoying that she did 9 x2 to a 3-1 40 HP warrior with Wo Dao instead of what probably should have been 10 x2 for a clean 4HKO, but I know what should have been the case for anyone else. She is somewhat reliably ORKOing halbs and warriors with her +5 MT, +15 crit Steel Sword and Adept (17 str, 14 MT, +1 atk from supports 3HKOs 38 HP, 19 def in 3-4), and would normally continue to do so for a long time.

My primary issues are her support level and mobility. IkexMia takes 3 chapters per support level (unless you think that it's efficient to wrest out 7 adjacents within 2 chapters), so she won't get a B support until 3-7. Her durability, without an avo buffer, is incredibly shaky. It's fine if you're 3HKO'd and you face hit rates of ~25 against the more accurate enemies on the map (looking at a 3-7 sample); it's not quite as fine if you're 3HKO'd and face 30-40 hit. But she has to deal with that for 6 chapters. Average mobility is also excusable for 3-P and 3-1, but 3-2 is easily 2-3 turned with high move units (base Shinon with neutral bio, Adept, and a +5 MT, +15 crit Steel Bow has a 63.1% chance of ORKOing Istvan on turn 2 enemy phase), 3-3 is a playground for Haar, Titania, and Oscar, and 3-5 looks to be more of the same.

As for her performance against generals, you likely have 3 units who can flat out OHKO generals (Titania, Gatrie, Haar) with your 2 available Hammers, and Ike, who is capable of ORKOing generals with a Brave Sword.

C. Easier to BEXP abuse into crown, as he's a real cheap investment with that considered.

To be fair to Gatrie, I think the best use of BEXP (other than, obviously, slowplaying Ike) is to just shove it all into Titania. Are you torn on deciding whether to crown Titania or Haar for 3-4 (the correct answer is Haar)? Well, now you can have your cake and eat it too, because you can reasonably get Titania to 3rd tier by 3-5. Of course, the side effect is that you have quite literally 0 remaining BEXP left for anyone else.

Edited July 9, 2010 by dondon151

[Fenrir]

If we're gonna talk about Part 4, enlighten me in what Gatrie can do before Endgame where Shinon shoves his boot firmly up Gatrie's ass.

quite firmly indeed my good sir. Cain can make it to mid off of just endgame, and Shinnon is possibly the best beorc candidate for endgame, by far in my book. Should not Shinnon, one of the better GMs without this awesometastic endgame would be...top of upper mid? without endgame, however with it he should beat gatrie, for all reasons stated by GJ.

The biggest question for Gatrie IMO is does he get celerity and the crown, if not he is awful, but with it he's good. What i'd like to know is, who do people usually give celerity to? Gj mentions Haar, tits and reyson on his item guide, I'm assuming we'd give it to one of them or Gatrie, who makes better use of it?

EDIT: @ dondon, boyd can also pick up the hammer, just another person to put it to good use, Titan might need to go KO another unit and Boyd couldn't do it, so he can pick up a hammer and get smakin.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Fenrir

[dondon151]

The biggest question for Gatrie IMO is does he get celerity and the crown, if not he is awful, but with it he's good. What i'd like to know is, who do people usually give celerity to? Gj mentions Haar, tits and reyson on his item guide, I'm assuming we'd give it to one of them or Gatrie, who makes better use of it?

If the objective is rout, then probably Reyson. If the objective is anything else, (arrive, burn, seize, kill boss), then definitely Haar. Consider also that 3rd tier Haar can have both Celerity and Savior.

[Fenrir]

If the objective is rout, then probably Reyson. If the objective is anything else, (arrive, burn, seize, kill boss), then definitely Haar. Consider also that 3rd tier Haar can have both Celerity and Savior.

Ok, so according to at least one person(there are plenty more, but dondon is good strategist, and replied first)Gatrie doesn't make best use of celerity, I know there are people who don't think he makes best use of crown, couple these together and it's rare that someone would want to give Gatrie Crown+Celerity.

Below Shinnon sounds good to me...

EDIT: there are 5555 replies :o

Edited July 9, 2010 by Fenrir

[grandjackal]

To be fair to Gatrie, I think the best use of BEXP (other than, obviously, slowplaying Ike) is to just shove it all into Titania. Are you torn on deciding whether to crown Titania or Haar for 3-4 (the correct answer is Haar)? Well, now you can have your cake and eat it too, because you can reasonably get Titania to 3rd tier by 3-5. Of course, the side effect is that you have quite literally 0 remaining BEXP left for anyone else.

I wasn't referring to early on, obviously Titania should get all the love early on. However, eventually, she does promote and hte BEXP has nowhere else to go. Considering Shinon isn't leveling at lightspeed, by the time that happens he should be around BEXPable levels. You do get more crowns later. Shinon doesn't have to go about it immediately is all I'm saying. Hell, you could just crown him if you wanted since he's got speed and such maxed, or you could just slowplay him till part 4 until he promotes naturally (or wait till level 20 BEXPd to crown him).

Gatrie on the other hand DOES have to deal with his problem of promoting early on, or else he's stuck dealing with his shit speed cap throughout part 3.

Am I the only one who thinks Gatrie should drop to Upper Mid? Or am I the only one who noticed that Transfer Oscar starts with 22 Str (Same might as Non-Transfer Ike with Ettard if Oscar were using the Steel Greatlance or ust a steelforge) and 23 AS (AKA, is essentially Ike on a horse)?

[Shadow Mir]

I wasn't referring to early on, obviously Titania should get all the love early on. Am I the only one who thinks Gatrie should drop to Upper Mid? Or am I the only one who noticed that Transfer Oscar starts with 22 Str (Same might as Non-Transfer Ike with Ettard if Oscar were using the Steel Greatlance or ust a steelforge) and 23 AS (AKA, is essentially Ike on a horse)?

Other than the fact that Oscar's got to deal with his crappy 24 speed cap until he promotes.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[-Cynthia-]

Well we can Crown Oscar. He's still a bad choice for 4-E due to his tier 3 cap, but he's pretty similar to Titania. I think maybe Oscar(T) should go to High rather than Gatrie to Upper Mid.

[Maou]

Same goes for you. What i was actually saying was that it was just ironic that you would say, "i dont remember anything like this" i was trying to humiliate no one, why don'y you post something helpful to the conversation please.

Being a recent regular in this topic, you should focus more on tier issues rather than idle banter. I believe it's only fair of you to assume that posting confrontational material will eventually lead to a direct reply.

However, I'm not going to argue any further with you. The last thing this topic needs is more clutter.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Morita Kenichi

[dondon151]

I think the question is, why is Oscar (T) an entire tier below Gatrie (N/T) when he has superior offense until enemies start exceeding 20 AS (3-5 and on for warriors, 3-8 and on for halbs), but much greater mobility and a better affinity?

[grandjackal]

Other than the fact that Oscar's got to deal with his crappy 24 speed cap until he promotes.

It's a better shelf-life than 23 speed. 23 AS lasts until 3-2 (which Gatrie will not have during that tiny time frame). Oscar's not only starting off with that, but it means he can easily get to 24 speed, which lasts I believe up until 3-10 or something.

Well we can Crown Oscar. He's still a bad choice for 4-E due to his tier 3 cap, but he's pretty similar to Titania. I think maybe Oscar(T) should go to High rather than Gatrie to Upper Mid.

Well, he can attempt to make up for his non 34 AS cap with Brave Lancing on the auras, but I think the bigger issue is that his damage output for all the portions of endgame before that are pisspoor, something more the fault of his crappy Str growth rather than his cap.

That, and a lame-ass mastery.

Another thing that's being missed in the comparison though is that since Transfer Oscar's offense is pretty easy to deal with now, this means Oscar's supporting someone with his Earth is now available to anyone rather than people who have an offense boosting affinity. This includes Titania.

However, that perhaps might have been just a lucky catch on my part. Perhaps Transfer Oscar should rise to High, so perhaps a comparison to someone else that's more solidly upper-mid is called for. Perhaps Michaiah?

Edited July 9, 2010 by Master Tang

[-Cynthia-]

Ugh cross team comparisons, no thanks.

I would say Gatrie is significantly better than normal Oscar. Oscar's durability is suspect until he gets a support. Normal Oscar has about the same doubling woes as Gatrie, who hits a lot harder, leaving Oscar's affinity and better mobility.

[Psych]

If we don't have cross team comparisons though, that would give us like three different tier lists.

Can I ask why Pelleas is below Kyza?

[grandjackal]

Ugh cross team comparisons, no thanks.

That's why I'm not going full into that argument quite yet.

I would say Gatrie is significantly better than normal Oscar. Oscar's durability is suspect until he gets a support. Normal Oscar has about the same doubling woes as Gatrie, who hits a lot harder, leaving Oscar's affinity and better mobility.

How about Tibarn and Naesala, who are capable of carrying their teams in part 4 along with being among your best for Endgame? What about Nephenee, who's had her moments in part 2 and grows to have offense above our speed-broke Gatrie along with mobility, despite being quite a bit more brittle?

How about BoydT who suddenly has 20 base speed to now avoid doubles more often accompanied with 24 Str (same as Gatrie's base after Boyd supports anyone, so now Boyd can OHKO with a hammer, only Boyd's got better mobility), and several bonds?

Can I ask why Pelleas is below Kyza?

Kyza has his uses in his opening chapter of 3-4 (where he starts with 17 meter for some reason) involving slapping mages off the cliffs as to let Ranulf have easier access to the arrival point, of which he needs to reach for us to beat the chapter. This beats Pelleas being redudntant upon joining.

[-Cynthia-]

You know, if Gatrie's lower mobility is that much of an issue, I don't see how Mia still>Titania.

Tibarn and Naesala are some more tough comparisons. They're better than Gatrie for all of Part 4, but they're better than a lot of units in High for all of part 4, so it's tough to judge.

Pelleas has ok chip in 4-2 and can like Dragonfoe!Fenrir stuff in 4-5. What do you mean by "slapping mages off of cliffs?" He's obviously not shooting up them due to being a laguz. He's somewhat borderline in doubling them (some have 19 AS) and taking Elfires is bad for his health. And his offense on non mages is terrible, he's like 4RKOing Halbs and stuff. His performance might be ok if he was forced, but he's not and we have better people to field. Pelleas comes for free.

[grandjackal]

You know, if Gatrie's lower mobility is that much of an issue, I don't see how Mia still>Titania.

I'd be in agreement, but it's more because she's capable of destruction without forges, just a stat booster and perhaps a hammer (which reminds me, something Mia has the hardest time dealing with), since horse mobility can have it's issues compared to foot soldiers (crossing rivers, climbing cliffs).

Gatrie ust has to eat a double stuffing of it. He's got crap move with a horse's mobility problems outside of cliff climbing, of which armors are hardly any better at it, on top of needing to be trained and given a crown to actually be good at combat. I feel he does not belong in high tier since they all have the same deal going: They start great and stay great for a good long while, or even till Endgame.

Tibarn and Naesala are some more tough comparisons. They're better than Gatrie for all of Part 4, but they're better than a lot of units in High for all of part 4, so it's tough to judge.

Most in high tier make up for it with their part 1 or part 3 (somewhat of both in Nolan's case). Gatrie is not one of these people.

Pelleas has ok chip in 4-2 and can like Dragonfoe!Fenrir stuff in 4-5. What do you mean by "slapping mages off of cliffs?" He's obviously not shooting up them due to being a laguz. He's somewhat borderline in doubling them (some have 19 AS) and taking Elfires is bad for his health. And his offense on non mages is terrible, he's like 4RKOing Halbs and stuff. His performance might be ok if he was forced, but he's not and we have better people to field. Pelleas comes for free.

Yet similar to, I could just have Bastian do that for me instead of Pelleas. Which is why I said Pelleas was redundant.

I would also take a couple dead mages over Pelleas MAYBE chipping 1 dragon in 4-2. You also forget that shooting up cliffs isn't necessarily a hot idea unless you've got incredible accuracy.Thanks to the high mobility of laguz along with the ability to climb up cliffs unlike paladins, Kyza's one of the more likely to get up there first. He goes around, kills the mage right of hte ballista, someone climbs up form the front now that that space is empty, take out the mage on the other side with that person, and the floodgates are now open.

[Florete]

You know, if Gatrie's lower mobility is that much of an issue, I don't see how Mia still>Titania.

Not that I'm making an actual argument, but these are on pretty different levels. Gatrie has 1 less move, has a harder time with terrain, and can be Shoved by no one instead of everyone. Gatrie's mobility definitely hurts him more than Mia's hurts her, so Gatrie dropping for mobility reasons would not necessarily cause Mia to drop with him.

[Anouleth]

I would also take a couple dead mages over Pelleas MAYBE chipping 1 dragon in 4-2. You also forget that shooting up cliffs isn't necessarily a hot idea unless you've got incredible accuracy.Thanks to the high mobility of laguz along with the ability to climb up cliffs unlike paladins, Kyza's one of the more likely to get up there first. He goes around, kills the mage right of hte ballista, someone climbs up form the front now that that space is empty, take out the mage on the other side with that person, and the floodgates are now open.

It's funny that Soren can actually shoot up cliffs with passable accuracy. Maybe ~80 display hit with a +15 fire forge, and 2HKOes? Shame that Kyza will probably get there first, but all you really need to do is have Titania or Oscar carry Soren up there and drop him by the ledge. Hits the Sage on enemy phase, finishes on player phase just in time for Ranulf to climb up.

[Colonel M]

I wouldn't exactly put Gatrie out of High Tier. Dropping, Ill give you, but not quite out of High.

As for Oscar(T), I can... Sort of agree with putting him in High. While it's true Oscar has no real place in 4-E like Titania and Mia do, Oscar has a much more relevant Part 3 now thanks to the Speed boost allowing him to tredge closer on doubling Halberdiers / Warriors. His durability is rough, but at least supporting him with Titania isn't a terrible idea.

With regards to Mia vs Titania. I'm of course assuming the growths behind both of them, but this really depends on preference of Part 3 with Titania shpoveling Generals with a Hammer vs Mia and SMs (since Titania will eventually double Halbs / Warriors after Speedwing + Spd proc) then Mia's access to climbing cliffs and participating in 3-7 and 4-5 more. Mia's Mov isn't as bad of a situation like Gatrie's is.

[grandjackal]

I wouldn't exactly put Gatrie out of High Tier. Dropping, Ill give you, but not quite out of High.

You REALLY think he's got anything in common with anyone in High? He doesn't save turns, he's not insta-win at his start, he's nothing too awful special when trained up, and he's going to be dropped eventually anyways. That doesn't sound high tier at all.

As for Oscar(T), I can... Sort of agree with putting him in High. While it's true Oscar has no real place in 4-E like Titania and Mia do, Oscar has a much more relevant Part 3 now thanks to the Speed boost allowing him to tredge closer on doubling Halberdiers / Warriors. His durability is rough, but at least supporting him with Titania isn't a terrible idea.

Tredge closer? He alaready can! Oscar(T) has the same speed base as Ike and with a Steel Greatlance has the same might as him with Ettard. He's got a worse cap, but he's got nearly twice the growth in speed to more likely get to 24 AS.

With regards to Mia vs Titania. I'm of course assuming the growths behind both of them, but this really depends on preference of Part 3 with Titania shpoveling Generals with a Hammer vs Mia and SMs (since Titania will eventually double Halbs / Warriors after Speedwing + Spd proc) then Mia's access to climbing cliffs and participating in 3-7 and 4-5 more. Mia's Mov isn't as bad of a situation like Gatrie's is.

Yeah, it's not hard to see how that can be a close one.

[Colonel M]

You REALLY think he's got anything in common with anyone in High? He doesn't save turns, he's not insta-win at his start, he's nothing too awful special when trained up, and he's going to be dropped eventually anyways. That doesn't sound high tier at all.

That depends. Gatrie saves turns in 3-1, and in 3-P you're limited on your offensive capabilities. 3-2 probably isn't doing much. 3-3 is really up with Haar, Titania, and possibly Oscar running up ahead, but he can help within the areas with the middle.

And like I said, the main question is if you're willing to give him Celerity. If you're not, then the possibility of being High Tier now becomes near-null and he'll likely drop like a rock. I can abide by that too.

[Zkirsche]

Wow, GJ, you went from over-hyping units to overhating them in the space of a few pages. Good job.

You REALLY think he's got anything in common with anyone in High?

Err, yes.

Base Titania: 36 HP, 25 Str, 22 Skl, 21 Spd, 19 Lck, 20 Def, 14 Res, 9 Mov

Base Gatrie: 44 HP, 25 Str, 18 Skl, 20 Spd, 15 Lck, 24 Def, 11 Res, 6 Mov

Titania doubles, like, 2 extra enemies. Big whoop. Okay, she has 3 more mov, but that can only get you so far, like until 3-2 when Gatrie has access to celerity and at this point Gatrie could very easily have 21 AS to double most of the map. Not to mention in 3-7 and 3-4 a horse is considered a hindrance and Gatrie isn't exactly doing nothing.

Then, in 3-4, he crowns himself for a ORKO'ing unit with unstoppable defence and potentially 8 mov, this instantly renders your "he's not insta-win at his start" completely false. 25 AS is basically enougth to carry you through teh whoel of part 3, with 22 AS enemies only being occasional from 3-10 onwards.

In part 4, Titania wins, but it's not like Gatrie isn't at least half decent. Brave axe!Gatrie at level 15/6 with an Atk support, for example, ORKO's quite consisitently in 4-1. He like ORKO's everyone except the generals, which he can switch to a steel poleaxe for anyway. Okay, a 20/6 Titania does teh same thing without brave and with 9 mov, but she needs brave for the SM's. And it's not liek I'm arguing Gatrie > Titania here, just that they're in the same tier, which they are.

No arguments existed since nobody ever bothered. Many of the (T) units were just placed on the list with RF's best effort based on the improvements. Nobody ever really said anything. I think her assumption was that a few spots on the list is valid considering rather than needing a few levels to not get doubled, she simply doesn't get doubled from the start. That's a reasonable improvement. Hence the gap between (N) and (T).

But is not getting doubled really worth another tier? I mean, we don't want to put them in harm's way in the first place, even if they don't get doubled. A tier above Rhys just doesn't make any sense IMO.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Kirsche

[Interceptor]

I am well aware of that, but the problems are not related to whether she is at the proper level to reach #HKO or anything like that.

Then your expectations for her were too high to begin with: there's a reason why she's not in Top. Her early game use has always been for solid offense while she was training and building support/durability. Mia's good chapters are where you can take off her limiter in a Rout, and watch enemies die horribly as they walk into her + Ike (AKA starting around 3-8).

[Fenrir]

Being a recent regular in this topic, you should focus more on tier issues rather than idle banter. I believe it's only fair of you to assume that posting confrontational material will eventually lead to a direct reply.

However, I'm not going to argue any further with you. The last thing this topic needs is more clutter.

err...why do i need to focus more on tier issues than you?

And like I said, the main question is if you're willing to give him Celerity. If you're not, then the possibility of being High Tier now becomes near-null and he'll likely drop like a rock. I can abide by that too.

When i asked this question last night the main answer was no, Gatrie as the king of upper-mid? I'm perfectly fine with this.

Titania doubles, like, 2 extra enemies. Big whoop. Okay, she has 3 more mov, but that can only get you so far, like until 3-2 when Gatrie has access to celerity and at this point Gatrie could very easily have 21 AS to double most of the map. Not to mention in 3-7 and 3-4 a horse is considered a hindrance and Gatrie isn't exactly doing nothing.

Then, in 3-4, he crowns himself for a ORKO'ing unit with unstoppable defence and potentially 8 mov, this instantly renders your "he's not insta-win at his start" completely false. 25 AS is basically enougth to carry you through teh whoel of part 3, with 22 AS enemies only being occasional from 3-10 onwards.

In part 4, Titania wins, but it's not like Gatrie isn't at least half decent. Brave axe!Gatrie at level 15/6 with an Atk support, for example, ORKO's quite consisitently in 4-1. He like ORKO's everyone except the generals, which he can switch to a steel poleaxe for anyway. Okay, a 20/6 Titania does teh same thing without brave and with 9 mov, but she needs brave for the SM's. And it's not liek I'm arguing Gatrie > Titania here, just that they're in the same tier, which they are.

But is not getting doubled really worth another tier? I mean, we don't want to put them in harm's way in the first place, even if they don't get doubled. A tier above Rhys just doesn't make any sense IMO.

Titan doubles 2 extra enemies, and has access to a speedwing! big whoop indeed. 3-4 he is strealing crown from Titan/Haar as well as stealing a celerity from tits/haar/reyson.

In 4-1 Gatrie may do well, what about 4-4? We've got one of the tougher maps in the game, which titan handles nicely, and your talking about 4-1?

I am in P4 of a PT i used Gatrie, he can co-exist with Haar on a lightly used GM team, Gatrie/Haar/Mia/Ike, with a lil bit of shinnon, but he is taking away from haar's game, taking his celerity and/or crown.