OMG it's a tier list

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Morita, Fenrir, take that to PM.

[Zkirsche]

Titan doubles 2 extra enemies, and has access to a speedwing! big whoop indeed.

Yes, 2 enemies. How is that a lot again? Especially when Gatrie can take another, like, 10 enemies on the enemy phase. He doesn't, but that doesn't mean that he can't face more. Oh and Gatrie has access to the speedwing, technically, but we think it's best on Titania, as is the crown on Gatrie.

3-4 he is strealing crown from Titan/Haar as well as stealing a celerity from tits/haar/reyson.

What does Haar possibly gain from getting a crown? He's pwn enougth as is. Tit/Haar have 9 mov, Gatrie has 6 mov, who gains more from celerity? Heck, reyson doesn't even appear until 3-5 so for 3-2 it's a moot point.

In 4-1 Gatrie may do well, what about 4-4? We've got one of the tougher maps in the game, which titan handles nicely, and your talking about 4-1?

Yes, because 4-1 exists, it's not going anywhere just because Gatrie's fairly good on this map. Heck, with just a few more levels (which he gets from 4-1) he has the str to start ORKO'ing consistently. Not to mention actually get to the highest enemy density area faster as he doesn't have to go all the way around the platform.

I am in P4 of a PT i used Gatrie, he can co-exist with Haar on a lightly used GM team, Gatrie/Haar/Mia/Ike, with a lil bit of shinnon, but he is taking away from haar's game, taking his celerity and/or crown.

So what? Titania can take exp away from the precious Haar etcetera. "Taking away" means nothing if you can use it better. And giving a ORKO'ing machine extar mov seems to be a good idea in my book.

[Fenrir]

Yes, 2 enemies. How is that a lot again? Especially when Gatrie can take another, like, 10 enemies on the enemy phase. He doesn't, but that doesn't mean that he can't face more. Oh and Gatrie has access to the speedwing, technically, but we think it's best on Titania, as is the crown on Gatrie.

What does Haar possibly gain from getting a crown? He's pwn enougth as is. Tit/Haar have 9 mov, Gatrie has 6 mov, who gains more from celerity? Heck, reyson doesn't even appear until 3-5 so for 3-2 it's a moot point.

Yes, because 4-1 exists, it's not going anywhere just because Gatrie's fairly good on this map. Heck, with just a few more levels (which he gets from 4-1) he has the str to start ORKO'ing consistently. Not to mention actually get to the highest enemy density area faster as he doesn't have to go all the way around the platform.

So what? Titania can take exp away from the precious Haar etcetera. "Taking away" means nothing if you can use it better. And giving a ORKO'ing machine extar mov seems to be a good idea in my book.

Tits gets the speedwing, it would be a total waste on Gatrie. Haar gains more speed, similar to what Gatrie gains.

Haar can transport people better with celerity, and reach places even better, Gatrie can keep up with the pack.

On 4-4, did you notice Titan can take out the enemies who are not up the platoform, she is one of the best units at it, added with the fact she is somewhat forced to.

[-Cynthia-]

I agree that Mist(T) is too high. So she gets 2RKOd instead of ORKOd like Rhys...big deal. Rhys has better chip and healing still isn't all that useful.

[Wooster]

Feel free to pound me to a pulp on this one, as I don't really respect tier lists and all. But my question is...

Why is it an argument between Titiana and Haar over the speed wing, rather then Ike? He arguably needs the speed if he's going to survive stalemating the Black Knight.

[Ether]

Feel free to pound me to a pulp on this one, as I don't really respect tier lists and all. But my question is...

Why is it an argument between Titiana and Haar over the speed wing, rather then Ike? He arguably needs the speed if he's going to survive stalemating the Black Knight.

BEXP can help pad his Speed,and if it comes down to it,Magic Cards count,and he can be rescued by Haar afterward.

[-Cynthia-]

Also, recruiting Lehran doesn't really have a significant effect on turncount anyway, so Ike fighting the BK is pretty pointless from an efficiency standpoint. But yeah, Magic cards.

[dondon151]

Titania doubles, like, 2 extra enemies. Big whoop. Okay, she has 3 more mov, but that can only get you so far, like until 3-2 when Gatrie has access to celerity and at this point Gatrie could very easily have 21 AS to double most of the map. Not to mention in 3-7 and 3-4 a horse is considered a hindrance and Gatrie isn't exactly doing nothing.

You are really underplaying the movement disadvantage. Gatrie losing by 3 mov (a full 1/3 of Titania's full movement) makes him trivial in a 7 turn clear of 3-P, useless in a 2-3 turn clear of 3-2, useless in 3-3 (unless you pick him up with Haar and drop him somewhere, but Haar might not even need that help), and useless in 3-4 where he has supreme trouble climbing up ledges and is beat up the left path by Titania, Oscar, and Ranulf. He's useless in 3-5 if you're going for the bosskill and useless in 3-11 if you're rushing Ike to the seize tile. You must realize that 3 mov makes several worlds of difference.

Then, in 3-4, he crowns himself for a ORKO'ing unit with unstoppable defence and potentially 8 mov, this instantly renders your "he's not insta-win at his start" completely false. 25 AS is basically enougth to carry you through teh whoel of part 3, with 22 AS enemies only being occasional from 3-10 onwards.

So you want to give Celerity and the 3-3 Master Crown to Gatrie in 3-4? Gatrie is not a good candidate for either of those resources. You can essentially consider the possibility of Gatrie getting both of these resources, let alone either, null.

[nflchamp]

Gatrie isn't going to have 23 SPD by 3-4. That'd require, what, 5 levels? Mia could get that much, but she starts 3 levels lower and probably reaches more enemies. I think it's great that there was a time we thought Gatrie could do this and get use out of celerity, but I think that time is past as efficiency seems to have improved.

EDIT: Grammar, how I loathe thee.

Edited July 9, 2010 by nflchamp

[Fenrir]

It seems as if everyone aside from kirsche is for Gatrie being lowered, and kirsche's arugement has it's share of flaws...

[RNG Princess]

Also, recruiting Lehran doesn't really have a significant effect on turncount anyway, so Ike fighting the BK is pretty pointless from an efficiency standpoint. But yeah, Magic cards.

It takes up a turn or two of cexp for Ike and maybe Haar, thats all I can think of against Lehran.

Also Kyza does 14 damage transformed to fighters/warriors, can't double, and can't shoot up cliffs which Titania, Gatrie, and Soren can do a lot better.

I'd say he's a horrible choice for 3-4, and I'm going back to that he belongs in bottom tier.

As for Gatrie he should be lower than the hawks for sure, their better mobility is always more useful its takes as many turns for him to catch up as it does for them to grass up.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[grandjackal]

Also Kyza does 14 damage transformed to fighters/warriors, can't double, and can't shoot up cliffs which Titania, Gatrie, and Soren can do a lot better.

Yeah, you wish. Soren's the only guy who's got a shot, and that's if he gets a max accuracy forge to get high 70s hit.

Sren's got about 161+15 leadership hit on his most accurate forge. Gatrie's got 116+15. That's a nice 45 hit discrepency, and it lands him in the 40s and 30s displayed attempting this. Titania's 133+15 isn't much hotter.

Then with Soren, he's got 2 problems here. 1. He needs transportation, of which Kyza does not with his great move. If whe transported we get the same results on the same turn, it doesn't matter if Soren's shooting up the cliff. 2. Soren requires a forge, Kyza costs 1 olivi grass. Kyza's a lot cheaper.

I'd say he's a horrible choice for 3-4, and I'm going back to that he belongs in bottom tier.

If he drops to bottom, Pelleas sure as hell is going with him.

[Fenrir]

I'd say he's a horrible choice for 3-4, and I'm going back to that he belongs in bottom tier.

...Did you really just say this? Haven't you argued for Astrid before? 14 chip damage and 9 move is > w/e Soren does, w/e and uncrowned Gatrie does, and possibly, just possibly better than Titan because Titan gets speed wing, Kyza could get this, no why in hell i'd ever give it to him, but he'd be nice on 3-4. Kyza also has access to later part of stage, which Titan does not.

As for enemies above on the cliff, we have pass for this.

[Anouleth]

Speaking of 3-4, isn't another alternative to try and take down the Sages with the Crossbow on Shinon? Shinon has like 190 hit with the thing. I think 28mt is a tiny bit short of a 2HKO, but he can probably have a +atk support with Mist or someone by this point to make up the difference.

Feel free to pound me to a pulp on this one, as I don't really respect tier lists and all. But my question is...

Why is it an argument between Titiana and Haar over the speed wing, rather then Ike? He arguably needs the speed if he's going to survive stalemating the Black Knight.

Ike is a patient man. He can wait until the 3-9 Speedwing, but arguably he doesn't need it depending on how you use BEXP, or even Blossom.

I agree that Mist(T) is too high. So she gets 2RKOd instead of ORKOd like Rhys...big deal. Rhys has better chip and healing still isn't all that useful.

Mist is also providing a helpful and fast Water support, and she has +1 move on Rhys.

[Fenrir]

Ike is a patient man. He can wait until the 3-9 Speedwing, but arguably he doesn't need it depending on how you use BEXP, or even Blossom.

Ike only needs the speedwing if he's screwed also, 26 speed at the end of his tier is pretty nice, but a speedwing wouldn't hurt.

Just throwing this out there, my lastest Ike had 28 spd at 3-13 and i still killed him with ed/zihark. =]

[dondon151]

I agree that Mist(T) is too high. So she gets 2RKOd instead of ORKOd like Rhys...big deal. Rhys has better chip and healing still isn't all that useful.

Healing is useful before your GMs become invincible. I'm actually surprised that no credit has been give to Rhys for having 11 Physic range at base (compared to Mist's 6) and a high enough growth that it becomes 12 in almost no time.

[-Cynthia-]

Mist is also providing a helpful and fast Water support, and she has +1 move on Rhys.

It's hard to effectively support with Mist since she can't be near the front lines. So if she were to support Titania or something, like 90% of the time Titania just leaves Mist way behind so we could care less what her affinity is.

Also noting that Mist(T) still gets doubled (and thus ORKOd) sometimes, 17 AS is still 1 point lower than Boyd/Soren who are doubled by SMs.

I'll admit healing is useful for 3-P and 3-1, but with proper resource distribution in 3-2 they should be largely unecessary. And it's not always so much that the GMs never lose any HP as that it's more efficient to just Vulnerary/Concoction once in a while than bother to protect Mist/Rhys.

Edited July 9, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

I'll admit healing is useful for 3-P and 3-1, but with proper resource distribution in 3-2 they should be largely unecessary. And it's not always so much that the GMs never lose any HP as that it's more efficient to just Vulnerary/Concoction once in a while than bother to protect Mist/Rhys.

3-2 is so short that healing is almost completely unnecessary, but you'll need it in 3-3 when you make a break for the top left portion of the map. 3-4 has a very high enemy density near the top of the map as well. If you don't want to bother protecting Mist or Rhys, this is where Physic comes in. You should buy it in 2-E and transfer it via one of Haar, Neph, or Brom.

[-Cynthia-]

We get Physic for free IIRC, from the base convo with Haar before 2-E.

I can see your point. Still, it makes the gap between Mist and Rhys even more questionable because Rhys is better with Physic (more range+ his higher Mag matters for healing).

[dondon151]

Oh, right. I thought for some reason that Haar gave Elincia Amiti. I must have gotten it confused with the Recover staff in Bargains.

[RNG Princess]

Yeah, you wish. Soren's the only guy who's got a shot, and that's if he gets a max accuracy forge to get high 70s hit.

Sren's got about 161+15 leadership hit on his most accurate forge. Gatrie's got 116+15. That's a nice 45 hit discrepency, and it lands him in the 40s and 30s displayed attempting this. Titania's 133+15 isn't much hotter.

Then with Soren, he's got 2 problems here. 1. He needs transportation, of which Kyza does not with his great move. If whe transported we get the same results on the same turn, it doesn't matter if Soren's shooting up the cliff. 2. Soren requires a forge, Kyza costs 1 olivi grass. Kyza's a lot cheaper.

If he drops to bottom, Pelleas sure as hell is going with him.

I wonder if Ranulf could use Pass because that'd sure make it easier to get him up there since Haar is clearing the top mostly by himself anyway. Kyza can't double and he doesn't deserve a speedwing (35% speed growth? speedwing is one of the most important boosts no thank you @ Fenrir), he's scared of mages, and he's weaker than Ranulf. Haar isn't immortal either since he's also scared of mages and the sm with the wyrmslayer but he has a better chance of clearing the spots for Ranulf and Ike because he'll like double them or deal decent damage.

IIRC Gatrie had 60% chance of hitting mages, pemn, and maybe he had a forge but it happened. I'd just rather not give him a spot in 3-4 that way other of my characters can gain cexp. Mist/Rhys can heal the left laguz npcs they could do Kyza's job instead.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[grandjackal]

I wonder if Ranulf could use Pass because that'd sure make it easier to get him up there since Haar is clearing the

top mostly by himself anyway.

He could yet Kyza could still be of help by being there with him, and helping the team clear out the ballista ridge. We'd like to keep Ranulf as mobile as possible, and that can't happen if enemies attack him en masse to empty out his fragile Cat meter. He helps Ranulf still by making pulling heat off Ranulf, ensuring he's fully mobile and not at risk of de-transforming.

Kyza can't double and he doesn't deserve a speedwing (35% speed growth? speedwing is one of the most important boosts no thank you @ Fenrir),

Considering most of the enemies here are the mages at the ridge whom he doubles, that is irrelevent, as we already know why he's in Low. The point is here he does have some form of utility here.

he's scared of mages,

55 HP is not afraid of mages. He's only got 4 less resistance than Titania (6 if we count Talisman), yet he beats her in HP by about 19-17. Granted he can't counter back, but that would be more annoyed than scared. If you want someone who's afraid of mages, I point you to Boyd.

and he's weaker than Ranulf.

Ranulf's got places to go and people to see this chapter. He's got no time to dilly dally around or constantly get harassed until de-transformation. He helps Ranulf has an easier time reaching the arrival point be it clearing the ridge passage for him and pulling heat off him as to give him an easier time reaching the summit.

Haar isn't immortal either since he's also scared of mages and the sm with the wyrmslayer but he has a better chance of clearing the spots for Ranulf and Ike because he'll like double them or deal decent damage.

Why would he then take the left side which is littered with thunder mages that he is oh so afraid of? If he went up the right side, he would get to the boss quicker to help take those guys covering the arrival point quicker (both are armors, Haar's got a hammer). It would also help to get rid of whatever authority stars the enemy might have had here, as to make this chapter all the simpler. So unless he can basically do all that in the span of 3 turns, I doubt he'd need to be distracted by doing that when I can have someone else do it for him.

IIRC Gatrie had 60% chance of hitting mages, pemn, and maybe he had a forge but it happened.

1. That would require him at best bio and his enemy at their worst, since on average it's around 40 displayed.

2. It's not about personal experience, even 60 displayed is shaky accuracy, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that's not gonna work all the time.

3. Enlighten me as to how he gets there before Kyza.

4. You can't forge ranged weapons this early on.

I'd just rather not give him a spot in 3-4 that way other of my characters can gain cexp.

Who else gets to the cliff area faster that can also climb the ledge? Screw CEXP if Kyza's going to get there first while still being one of the most mobile there.

Mist/Rhys can heal the left laguz npcs they could do Kyza's job instead.

*Facepalm* Please tell me you aren't serious in thinking they could clear the cliffs better than Kyza could.

[nflchamp]

Who else gets to the cliff area faster that can also climb the ledge? Screw CEXP if Kyza's going to get there first while still being one of the most mobile there.

Anyone who has been ferried by Oscar and people who have been smited once at least keep up. In fact, they probably get there faster if ferried.

*Facepalm* Please tell me you aren't serious in thinking they could clear the cliffs better than Kyza could.

*Loads up 3-4 save*

Kyza

30MT/22SPD

Generic Tiger

43MT/18SPD

Generic Cat

33MT/26SPD

Enemy Thunder Mage

33HP/12DEF/17SPD

Enemy Sniper

37HP/17DEF/19SPD

No offense, but they probably could. They even have crappier defensive stats than Ranulf, so they'd probably get targeted first, which is what is really important.

[grandjackal]

Anyone who has been ferried by Oscar and people who have been smited once at least keep up. In fact, they probably get there faster if ferried.

Which point, why Gatrie? If anyone else were brought up, let's say Shinon with the Crossbow, I probably would have been fine with the example.

*Loads up 3-4 save*

Kyza

30MT/22SPD

Generic Tiger

43MT/18SPD

Generic Cat

33MT/26SPD

Enemy Thunder Mage

33HP/12DEF/17SPD

Enemy Sniper

37HP/17DEF/19SPD

No offense, but they probably could. They even have crappier defensive stats than Ranulf, so they'd probably get targeted first, which is what is really important.

How relevent is it when Ranulf's tougher than Kyza anyways so they would still go for Kyza? The idea is to simply draw heat away from Ranulf. Since Kyza's capable of ORKOing mages, he would still be better at clearing them out.

[nflchamp]

Which point, why Gatrie? If anyone else were brought up, let's say Shinon with the Crossbow, I probably would have been fine with the example.

Your question really wasn't about Gatrie, it was about how Kyza can help Ranulf. I just felt the need to point out he sucks at even what you're claiming he can do.

How relevent is it when Ranulf's tougher than Kyza anyways so they would still go for Kyza? The idea is to simply draw heat away from Ranulf. Since Kyza's capable of ORKOing mages, he would still be better at clearing them out.

They really don't matter because they'll likely be incompetent morons who do something silly like go backwards for healing. Doesn't really change the fact that they'd do a better job than Kyza stat-wise.