OMG it's a tier list

[Soren37]

@RFoF

The +2 bonus means that she'll cap SPD at --/14 on average, which is going to take forever to get her to. It gives her 50 Avo, but the Hit rates in 3-P range from 109-149, meaning she'll always face above 50 displayed hits. Couple that with her durability and she'll be 1-2RKO'd. It'll also stop her from being doubled from all the enemies except from a SM.

Below Brom does sound nice though. I think that was my original suggestion.

Aran in Upper Mid? He should be lowered. He has fairly low bases, need quite a bit of babying to get him out of his funk, and while he'll cap-ram STR, SKL, and DEF, making him an excellent tank, his SPD is so craptacular that he can't avoid a thing. And your BEXP is much better used on people like Nolan, Jill, Mia, and Ike. I'm not sure where to place him though. It's either between Brom and Soren(T) or just above Edward.

[Colonel M]

I don't approve of slashing the two, but one right on top of the other works. I also agree with below Brom.

Slashing allows the ending of the arguing with useless semantics when the main point, at the end of the day, is that they're both healers and their uses in regards to the GMs diminish more and more as the team gets durable. Eventually the contributions becomes little or nonexistant. Rhys likely is better earlier due to Physic range being useful in some instances. Mist likely is more useful later in the game due to the horse.

Arguing them below Brom is questionable. After 2-1, Brom doesn't do much. 2-2 Brom focuses on Shoving probably or killing an Archer that was left behind. Then there's 2-E where, once again, a Shovebot. After that he'll probably never be fielded, etc. While the amount of turns he saves in 2-1 is pretty good, that pretty much sums up 90% of his contributions (rough estimate).

[Florete]

@RFoF

The +2 bonus means that she'll cap SPD at --/14 on average, which is going to take forever to get her to. It gives her 50 Avo, but the Hit rates in 3-P range from 109-149, meaning she'll always face above 50 displayed hits. Couple that with her durability and she'll be 1-2RKO'd.

That wasn't the point.

It'll also stop her from being doubled from all the enemies except from a SM.

That was.

I also support Aran dropping.

[Naglfar]

Soren has fewer movement issues than Gatrie, so I hardly see why he'd engage in less combat. Soren's mastery skill buffs his weak durability. Over three rounds of combat, Soren has something like an 82% chance of proccing Flare and healing himself, and he can easily be put in 3HKOed territory with BEXP in tier 2, a Seraph Robe or a Dracoshield (which are less valuable stat boosters). Sol has 13% activation rate to Flare's 25%, and Gatrie should 2HKO anyway so Luna is just an especially flashy way of doing so.

Gatrie has shitty MOV, yes, but Soren's is the same before promotion anyway, so that's six-seven chapters of irrelevance, half of Soren's existence unless he's going to Endgame, which he sucks at. After Soren promotes... he's not using his full move every turn. Flare is not reliable, and let me remind you that if Soren's 3HKO'd, he only gets two chances to proc Flare because the enemies get the first attack on enemy phase. I'm not sure what formula you used to figure out 82%, and I'd like it if you would share it with me, but that number is irrelevant if Soren dies in three. I'd like to poke avoid into it as well so I can figure out Soren(T)'s real chances of surviving three rounds. ~90% would be iffy, ~80% is way out. One-in-five chance of dying is not consistently durable.

You can slowplay characters, and you should definitely do so for high levelled characters such as Oscar. And Soren is among the most effective recipients of BEXP, since he has a low base level, caps stats around level 8 instead of level 17, and the BEXP goes to Speed quite reliably since it's tied for his second highest growth. For Oscar, Strength is third and Defense is second, behind 50/55% growths.

And if we're going to BEXP Oscar once he reaches level 17, we might as well save ourselves the hassle and give the crown to someone who isn't two levels away from promotion. Gatrie has to endure 6 levels at his 23SPD cap, and Soren has to endure maybe 10.

Alright, sure. I'll leave Oscar out of it, then.

lolTanith and Sigrun. There is no point in Crowning Tanith, since her 25 speed will not even double Part 4 Paladins. It is better to give her Paragon or something and let her kill stuff, so she can actually be useful in Part 4. Sigrun will double Part 4 Paladins, but her 19/1 strength is 21, which is really bad. Like, pre-promotion Mia beats her. And there is the problem that again, Sigrun is on the cusp of promotion anyway.

Everyone's close to promotion at 3-11, you may as well pick someone, even if it's just to skip a couple levels of second tier. Sigrun isn't getting any strength anyway, but we may as well do something with her while we're waiting for 4-3, like, give her Stun so she's not completely useless. Soren(T) with the 3-6 crown has the same speed problems as an instantly-crowned Tanith, only with a couple more chapters, which isn't worth much when he's not killing much more than your second tier units anyway, with third tier experience gain and 35% speed growth. I suppose then, Soren(T) needs the 3-6 crown to be any good. Thing is, Gatrie hates being stuck with 23 speed too. Having to endure ~6 or ~10 levels without the magic 25 speed is pretty big either way, so they both need it if they don't want to promote late in P3 and suddenly be stuck with enemies they can't double again. I still believe Gatrie's higher priority, units capable of doubling and never dying are going to be beasts, and glass cannons not so much, particularly when everyone else is very capable of killing. There's a reason Gatrie's two tiers above Soren(T).

Every character fucks over other units. When Tauroneo kills the boss of 1-6-2, he disadvantages units that could have gained EXP in that chapter. When Rhys uses Physic, he disadvantages Mist because she wants to use it herself. When Haar, Gatrie or Soren use a Crown, they disadvantage each other. Such is the nature of RD. As happy I would be to divide a Master Crown into 4 equal slices and give them all one each so as not to hurt their feelings, sadly that's not possible. Nor do I want to dole out Crowns on the basis of tier position (in which case Gatrie would be behind Mia anyway).

Tauroneo killing the boss of 1-6-2 is efficient because it makes the chapter much easier. Rhys using Physic is a good idea because he's much better with it than Mist is; he has less MOV so he needs it more, and more MAG so it heals more and can reach pretty much anyone it needs to. Soren taking a crown heavily disadvantages other units without quite making up for it, which is part of why he's Mid tier, not the other way around.

so we dont have int or naglfar...austrailian discrimination presumably.

Well, seeing as I have like, five posts in this thread, I think it's not unfair that I'm not on the list yet.

[RNG Princess]

I'm inclined to say Heather's position should be considered.

For 3-4 she's the best at finding Ettard but she either needs a ride or needs to have the path cleansed for her so she could hurry.

For 3-E theres no rush but she's not helping in combat.

For 3-E she costs a slot, because her combat is minimal, so I suggest having Sigrun look for the item instead.

However she's amazing for 3-5 and side stealing + whatever I missed. (I found crowning + resolve useful on her for emergencies)

Edited August 19, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Soren37]

It'll also stop her from being doubled from all the enemies except from a SM.

That was.

I also support Aran dropping.

Where though? If anything he should be in Lower Mid, as he almost does the same thing as Eddie. Starts out craptacular, and gradually gets better. While he's not as good as Eddie, the people below him are Lucia, Volke, and Bastian, which is difficult, as he's definitely better than Lolcia, but he's not as good as Eddie, as Eddie at least has the potential to become a rape machine. Aran just becomes a secondary tank.

Also, why is Rolf(T) in Upper Mid? Shinon is the archer of choice as Leo sucks, Rolf comes too low and is extremely difficult to raise, and Shinon can just take out most things that are in his way.

[Colonel M]

Before I make a very large argument here, allow me to propose the following questions to you, for those who want Eddie and Aran "higher", so to speak. Granted at the moment people want Aran down, but they also want Edward up as well.

- What does Edward (and Aran) do differently from Nolan to be deserving of CEXP?

- Take a glance at my turn counts. Let's try to even estimate what level Aran is going to be at 1-E. Nolan barely made it to Level 20, and obviously Jill failed to reach it despite being of a higher level. Hell, even try to estimate what Edward would be; I'm very interested in knowing the latter.

If I seriously need to make compelling arguments as to why these two should never, EVER be touched barring their early game, then I shall do so. But, I am at least hoping the turncounts rather speak for themselves (and my levels with the DB as well).

[Fenrir]

If I seriously need to make compelling arguments as to why these two should never, EVER be touched barring their early game, then I shall do so. But, I am at least hoping the turncounts rather speak for themselves (and my levels with the DB as well).

They can never be touched aside from their earlygame, Ed wins the earlygame.

[Soren37]

I think he means Early Part 1. After you get Taur, Volug, Nailah, Muarim, and the BK, you don't really need any of the DB besides Nolan and Jill. Everyone else is fielded just for shoving, it seems. Besides, you only have enough EXP it seems to really make 2 DB units useful. Nolan and Jill are the best recipients of said EXP as they are durable, or gain stats so quickly that they can be BEXP-abused up.

Concerning the current argument, if Aran and Eddie only have early-game and shovebotting in their future, then they should probably drop quite a bit. I mean, their contributions in Colonel M's PT are worthy of what's going on with the characters in Low Tier. It's difficult to determine where they go, though. We're only using Kurth for Tide and maybe Shove, Lethe for Shove, Renning as a "Shit I messed up bad" Endgame unit, Gareth...lol, Sanaki can really only play with siege as she's too frail to deal with anything. Bastian does chip on the laguz, Lehran's abilities are nice, but it means you're giving up an attacker. Kyza is Shovebot, Astrid..., and Pelleas is death to dragons. If it were up to me, they'd be between Astrid and Kyza, with Eddie above Aran.

[-Cynthia-]

Eddie saves like 12 turns on 1-P. There's no way he should be anywhere below Lower Mid.

[Soren37]

Then he stays where he is. Aran should drop to Low though, as I don't see any potential in him. He's good for 1 or 2 chapters, but he's quickly reduced to shove-botting.

[dondon151]

Not to mention, even if you get Aran to be 3-6 worthy, there are at least 2 units who are better recipients of Beastfoe, and 1 unit who is a better recipient of Paragon. There's not enough BEXP to fix his problem stats even when he cap rams str, skl, and def in tier 2, and as a result his part 4 is abysmal. To low tier he goes. The qualification that Aran and Boyd need to be next to each other is also extremely flawed; Boyd at least has his moments and has enough longevity to not be automatically dropped after like 2 maps.

[Soren37]

Yeah, dondon agreed with me!

And no one's responded as to why Rolf(T) is in Upper Mid. As far as I can tell, he's reduced to potshots while Shinon can ORKO everything but SM and Generals with a Steel Bow.

Even with the transfers, Rolf is getting a STR and SPD bonus, which means he can now double the Fire Sages and a Horseslayer Lance General. Shinon could already double and kill those without a transfer. My point is, Rolf(T) isn't doing anything that Rolf(N) could do already. He bumps up his chip damage and doubles a few sages, but Shinon could already do that with much better results.

[-Cynthia-]

I could agree with Aran dropping, but Low tier? I'm not sure Aran is worse than say, Ilyana. Ilyana chips for more, but Aran can actually have durability eventually. And while Aran's Part 3 may be overrated by some, it's better than whatever she's doing.

Edited August 19, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

Aran will never reach said durability. Let's face the reality of the situation here: Nolan is pretty useful for knocking the living daylights out of the north side in 3-6, is at least decent in 3-12, and has the possibility of an Endgame to speak of (but of course; don't quote me on that yet). Then we have Aran, who is basically a pile of shit in a team that can barely afford to keep him up to any par whatsoever.

I'm not saying this to brag; I'm dead serious. Aran being trained in Part 1 is such a long stretch to even assume, perhaps even a laughable concept.

[dondon151]

I'm not too concerned about his durability "eventually" when it's highly unlikely that he's going to even reach maybe 16/0 in part 1 without us trading a significant amount of turns for EXP. A 16/1 Aran is terrible. For god's sakes, he's doubled by tigers. And also consider that if we have a promoted Aran, then we are basically excluding one of a promoted Nolan, Jill, or Ilyana. Excluding promoted Ilyana means there's 1 less skill or item that we're transferring to the GMs, which is arguably more beneficial than Aran in 3-6.

Heck, even Leo should go above him. Seriously. Leo does damage from 1-P to 1-3 where every point counts, and then he actually doubles at base in 3-6 and depending on level and supports, gets extremely close to an ORKO on untransformed cats. It might be good that he doesn't ORKO, because when they transform Jill can easily pick them off for tons of EXP. He even has use in 3-12, where there are a total of 5 FKs that you are likely to encounter on the map (Leo OHKOs with Bowgun), and then if you want to kill Ike in 3-13 you might want him to help pick off a hawk if you can't wait for ally phase.

Edited August 19, 2010 by dondon151

[Soren37]

Coincidence that we posted at the same time.

Ilyana chips more, Aran's more durable. Ilyana also has a 5 level lead over him with better bases and targets RES. Aran goes for DEF, and he has a bad start. He does 7 damage compared to Ilyana's 10, 12 with Elthunder, and she can double 1 Fighter and an Armoured Lance, although not kill. Aran can't double at all, and deals 10 damage at the most. Both have about the same Hit rates, (~80), although both will drop if the switch to Elthunder/Javelin. Aran's also taking 7-14 damage, depending on who he's fighting.

Next chapter...

Random commentary: I ****ing hate Aran on Hard Mode. He gets two-shotted by tigers' date=' so he's actually less useful than Eddie for walling in this stage, since Eddie also gets 2HKO'ed, but can actually dodge a hit occasionally. Go figure.[/quote']

I don't think I need anything else. He can attack at two-range, but his accuracy is at best 51% against Cats, and against Tigers he has a 79% displayed.

He has such a rocky start that he needs forges, which other people like Sothe and Nolan want more.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Soren37

[dondon151]

Coincidence that we posted at the same time.

Ilyana chips more, Aran's more durable. Ilyana also has a 5 level lead over him with better bases and targets RES. Aran goes for DEF, and he has a bad start. He does 7 damage compared to Ilyana's 10, 12 with Elthunder, and she can double 1 Fighter and an Armoured Lance, although not kill. Aran can't double at all, and deals 10 damage at the most. Both have about the same Hit rates, (~80), although both will drop if the switch to Elthunder/Javelin. Aran's also taking 7-14 damage, depending on who he's fighting.

Aran is even difficult to recruit on 1-3 if you're going for a 6 turn clear. You have literally 0 durable units left to power through and recruit him, so you're forced to shove Laura into his face on the turn that you clear the map.

He has such a rocky start that he needs forges, which other people like Sothe and Nolan want more.

Forges are not generally a problem (I had enough cash to make him an Iron Lance forge, along with 2 Iron Axe forges, 4 Iron Knife forges, 1 Steel Axe forge, 1 Thunder forge, and 1 Fire forge). You are kind of tight on cash for 1-4, though, but then you get 13000G more to spend in 1-5.

Also, does anyone think that we need to make an agenda? I can think of at least 5 things that we can talk about right now.

Edited August 19, 2010 by dondon151

[Soren37]

We probably should.

-I'm advocating dropping Rolf(T), or even slashing him with Rolf(N)

-Soren vs. Rhys

-Aran to Low (almost been finalized)

-Int's and dondon's argument about Mia saving Hammer uses.

- Mist and Rhys' placement (considering below Brom)

-Heather up (Queen Elincia on page 309)

-Kyza to Bottom (dondon agreed)

In order, it should probably go...

-Kyza

-Mist vs. Rhys'

-Aran

-Hammer uses

-Rolf

-Soren vs. Rhys

-Heather

Edited August 19, 2010 by Soren37

[RNG Princess]

I disagree Aran shouldn't drop between Astrid and Kyza.

If he should move to low he should be the very top of it or below Lethe since he has a remedy of becoming a decent meatshield/wall and shovebotting is more helpful than the other low tiered units (he can shove Sothe anyways thats what counts).

Also a while back I had suggested Kyza dropping to bottom and dondon agreed :).

Edited August 19, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[-Cynthia-]

I've never personally found Aran to be worth recruiting. smash's playthrough was supposed to demonstrate how Aran shaves turns, not sure how that went/was even completed.

Rolf(T} is better than Rolf(N). True, the Str/Spd do relatively little at base. But at level 1 and with high Str and good Spd growths, these numbers improve quickly, which puts Rolf into ORKOing range on mages, or 3RKOing and doubling (which allows for critkills etc.) I haven't actually tested Rolf in HM, plan to do so on my current playthrough.

Mia being able to kill Generals obviously saves Hammer uses, I think the question was how much and there was a lot of other stuff going on there.

[Soren37]

Fair enough. I'll add that to the agenda so that RFoF or a mod can edit it.

I'm not going to go into the shove debate. I remember how many pages there were when people were trying to debate Lyre up.

However, it's been stated that it's near impossible to get him up in levels without playing inefficiently. dondon can't get Aran until he finishes the map, so he doesn't have a chance of getting EXP there, and then the next chapter he's doubled by cats and has crap Hit when using Javelins.

Kyza's barely even being fielded because of his joining situation. The GMs want EXP more than he does, so he's good for shove-botting. Astrid wasn't even used in dondon's PT, so Aran would probably be higher than her.

He's not cutting down turns what-so-ever. He's simply there for EM or NM, or the person on HM that isn't playing efficiently. He can shove Sothe, good. What else?

[RNG Princess]

Ok now I understand why Aran's pros are not worth more than his cons ;)

1: It doesn't help to recruit him without taking longer for 1-3

2: Its complicated to recruit him and keep Laura safe

3: He's not all that durable at first.

4: Speed, hit issues, etc.

By one point Meg's more efficient since she's available at base and can shovebot Sothe too.

Kyza's barely even being fielded because of his joining situation. The GMs want EXP more than he does, so he's good for shove-botting. Astrid wasn't even used in dondon's PT, so Aran would probably be higher than her.

No he did use Astrid for a little bit, I don't recall him using Kyza. I mean why use Kyza if Mordy can use resolve better and innate smite (better shoving). BTW his 3-4 also proved that Ranulf needs no assistance. I think it was you the one that said Kyza was good for assisting Ranulf ^_^ if not I apologize.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Soren37]

...Oh my. That's...What the hell do we do now?!

I'll tread carefully here. Meg is available at base, which is nice, but she's doubled by the cats and some of the tigers (if using Steel Sword), and the other tigers can 2RKO her. She'll need constant attention and heals to prevent death, because her Avo ain't goin' anywhere. Aran's 2RKO'd as well, and he has most of the same issues as Meg.

In short, they're both a piece of crap, but Meg has a much harder start, while Aran has some potential.

I misread that part of dondon's PT then. And I'm not that good yet to argue strategies like that.

[RNG Princess]

...Oh my. That's...What the hell do we do now?!

I'll tread carefully here. Meg is available at base, which is nice, but she's doubled by the cats and some of the tigers (if using Steel Sword), and the other tigers can 2RKO her. She'll need constant attention and heals to prevent death, because her Avo ain't goin' anywhere. Aran's 2RKO'd as well, and he has most of the same issues as Meg.

In short, they're both a piece of crap, but Meg has a much harder start, while Aran has some potential.

I misread that part of dondon's PT then. And I'm not that good yet to argue strategies like that.

Don't get me wrong ;) its just one point that she has over Aran. I wasn't implying Meg > Aran just yet.