OMG it's a tier list

[dondon151]

We would be remiss not to note that Titania's vaunted mobility advantage is curtailed here.

Not really. Like I said, you can get her to reach 5RKO'd status pretty easily, and unlikely 6RKO'd.

One wonders what Titania is doing against the Swordmasters. Anyway, I didn't say that Generals were not a problem, it would be more accurate to say that I claimed Generals were the least of her problems. Naturally it's fine for her to use a Hammer against them, Enemy Phase considerations notwithstanding. There are a couple/few of them that she could reasonably face, iirc.

So she 2RKOs the SMs. That's not that big of a deal unless you decide to have weaker units tail her, when it could be a potential problem. But Titania doesn't even have the problem of being held back when 2RKOing because she can just finish off a kill on player phase and canto on forward like nothing happened.

(She also 2HKOs them with Brave Axe. Now, she can't have a forged Hand Axe, Tomahawk, Hammer, and Brave Axe equipped all at once, but she has guaranteed options against all of them.)

Performance in 4-E-1 is important, because Titania can't do anything there without adding in her contributions in the rest of Endgame, since we can't change deployments. I can see how you don't agree with the general idea, since you are of the opinion that Titania is grinding Mia underneath her horse's hooves in Part 3.

Mia's potential contributions for the rest of 4-E (that aren't totally outclassed by the prospects of 1 turn clears):

Killing auras in 4-E-5

Wow, that's a long list.

I would prefer to reserve Top tier for the likes of Haar.

And I wouldn't. My impression right now is that an unwinged Titania is far more useful than a 25 AS Ike in part 3.

Edited August 19, 2010 by dondon151

[Integrity]

There's a section of the map that is impossible to cross without falling into a pit except for one section - and that section always gets blocked by a Light Rune. So, effectively, yes.

EDIT: What the fuck, I'm way behind. >>

Edited August 19, 2010 by Integrity

[Interceptor]

Not really. Like I said, you can get her to reach 5RKO'd status pretty easily, and unlikely 6RKO'd.

No, really. Her mobility here is not giving you the returns that it used to, and it's partially because of the FoW/layout. Can't ignore this in good conscience.

So she 2RKOs the SMs. That's not that big of a deal unless you decide to have weaker units tail her, when it could be a potential problem. But Titania doesn't even have the problem of being held back when 2RKOing because she can just finish off a kill on player phase and canto on forward like nothing happened.

I'll assume here that in admitting she 2RKO's Swordmasters, you're also conceding that Titania can face a sticky wicket situation because of her inability to ORKO them with any frequency.

Mia's potential contributions for the rest of 4-E (that aren't totally outclassed by the prospects of 1 turn clears):

Sure, ignore the clear that she's part of. What does it matter that she's murder on Sephiran, anyway? We have other units that are good, which means what she does will not count.

And I wouldn't. My impression right now is that an unwinged Titania is far more useful than a 25 AS Ike in part 3.

Thank you for your contribution, I had no ideas what your thoughts on the situation might be.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Interceptor

[dondon151]

No, really. Her mobility here is not giving you the returns that it used to, and it's partially because of the FoW/layout. Can't ignore this in good conscience.

Titania is not an invincible juggernaut, but her situation is far better than Mia's, and still reasonably close to Ike's.

I'll assume here that in admitting she 2RKO's Swordmasters, you're also conceding that Titania can face a sticky wicket situation because of her inability to ORKO them with any frequency.

Yeah, sure. I'm also saying that it doesn't actually matter because SMs that are left alive are KO'd on player phase and Titania cantos away like nothing happened. She has 7 move in this chapter, so other SMs left alive will KO themselves on her on the next enemy phase.

Sure, ignore the clear that she's part of. What does it matter that she's murder on Sephiran, anyway? We have other units that are good, which means what she does will not count.

Well, let's see: you 60 atk to ORKO Sephiran with Parity (assuming that Rudol Gem remains intact). Unless you proc something, the only individual capable of ORKOing Sephiran at base is Giffca.

[Narga_Rocks]

Titania is not an invincible juggernaut, but her situation is far better than Mia's, and still reasonably close to Ike's.

Missing the Point.

Titania says "I have 9 move, I'll go forward 9 spaces". Enemy says "I'm in the way, so you only go 5 spaces, HA!". Titania says "dang it, I didn't get to go as far as I'd hoped".

You could mitigate this problem by having others go first or deploying scrubs to torch or whatever, but you probably can't eliminate this problem 100%.

Clear now?

Oh, and Titania needs help in 4-4. She can't do it on her own. There is a spot where you get Warrior + Sniper + Swordmaster all at once. How is she killing them in one phase? Even if I give you Player Phase + Enemy Phase + Player Phase, tell me how she's taking them all down on her own?

Hand Axe forge will 3HKO the warrior, right? Silver Axe forge doesn't counter the sniper. She can't double the Swordmaster. Tomahawk will have a high chance of missing someone. And she may not even be able to double the warrior or sniper. I'm not buying 20/9 to start 4-4. And there aren't all that many enemies in the lower section of 4-4. Even if Titania solos (sages + 1 or 2 Generals + 2 Swordmasters) I'm not buying 20/9 by the time you meet the 3 reinforcements. If Titania is getting assistance, she obviously shouldn't get too much credit for taking down 4 or 5 enemies compared to the 15+ that Ike and Mia are each bringing down here.

[Interceptor]

Titania is not an invincible juggernaut, but her situation is far better than Mia's, and still reasonably close to Ike's. [...] Yeah, sure. I'm also saying that it doesn't actually matter because SMs that are left alive are KO'd on player phase and Titania cantos away like nothing happened. She has 7 move in this chapter, so other SMs left alive will KO themselves on her on the next enemy phase.

Narga said it. And to that, I would add that the next time you find yourself in 4-1 with a Serious Mia<tm> that's actually capable of fighting back, I suggest that you send her and Ike due south on Turn 1, and keep them close. This is a good time to break whatever you have left of Storm Swords. Marvel at the utter destruction that ensues.

Well, let's see: you 60 atk to ORKO Sephiran with Parity (assuming that Rudol Gem remains intact). Unless you proc something, the only individual capable of ORKOing Sephiran at base is Giffca.

Assuming the rosiest scenario for this, which is that Parity doesn't impact the Rudol's bonus (I think this is likely, though), what exactly is your argument? Mia doubling 50HP/35DEF with 49/51mt is still a felony, seeing as how Sephiran is left with a sucking chest wound, in OHKO range for someone else. I mean, isn't this still pretty good?

Edited August 19, 2010 by Interceptor

[dondon151]

Missing the Point.

Titania says "I have 9 move, I'll go forward 9 spaces". Enemy says "I'm in the way, so you only go 5 spaces, HA!". Titania says "dang it, I didn't get to go as far as I'd hoped".

You could mitigate this problem by having others go first or deploying scrubs to torch or whatever, but you probably can't eliminate this problem 100%.

Take a look at the 4-1 map here: http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe10/guia/parte-4-capitulo-1.htm

Focus your vision on that area just under the center of the map. Yes, that wide open area with no enemies. I am pretty sure that Titania is not going to run into anyone, especially when you consider that the enemies in the bottom RHS of the map don't even move unless an ally is in range.

Oh, and Titania needs help in 4-4. She can't do it on her own. There is a spot where you get Warrior + Sniper + Swordmaster all at once. How is she killing them in one phase? Even if I give you Player Phase + Enemy Phase + Player Phase, tell me how she's taking them all down on her own?

Hand Axe forge will 3HKO the warrior, right? Silver Axe forge doesn't counter the sniper. She can't double the Swordmaster. Tomahawk will have a high chance of missing someone. And she may not even be able to double the warrior or sniper. I'm not buying 20/9 to start 4-4. And there aren't all that many enemies in the lower section of 4-4. Even if Titania solos (sages + 1 or 2 Generals + 2 Swordmasters) I'm not buying 20/9 by the time you meet the 3 reinforcements. If Titania is getting assistance, she obviously shouldn't get too much credit for taking down 4 or 5 enemies compared to the 15+ that Ike and Mia are each bringing down here.

I got Titania to --/20/3 by the end of part 3. This is taking into account that I was focusing an intense amount of kills on Ranulf, Ulki, Janaff, and Oscar. Now, unless you go out of your way to not have Titania kill anything in 4-1, I am fairly confident in her ability to gain 5 or 6 levels with Paragon and some extra BEXP in the 4-1 and 4-4 bases. Heck, Int got Nephenee from 3.67 to 10.65 in 4-2 with Paragon (by the way, the fact that Int got Neph to 3.67 by the end of 3-E in the first place, when Neph has roughly a 15 base level disadvantage, worse offense, and no horse, should clue you in that Titania can end 3-E with probably a higher level than --/20/3), and 4-2's enemies are of a lower level than 4-1's enemies.

As for the dilemma with the reinforcements, Hand Axe forge ORKOs sniper, damages SM, and damages warrior on enemy phase, then Titania grabs a KO with a Silver Axe forge on player phase on either the SM or the warrior, and the remaining one KOs himself on the next enemy phase. Now, this works in a void, and I don't know if Titania needs to have her forged Hand Axe equipped for the next enemy phase, but this works well if she doesn't. If she does, then she chips at the warrior on player phase with the forged Hand Axe and he and the SM suicide on enemy phase.

Edited August 19, 2010 by dondon151

[dondon151]

Assuming the rosiest scenario for this, which is that Parity doesn't impact the Rudol's bonus (I think this is likely, though), what exactly is your argument? Mia doubling 50HP/35DEF with 49/51mt is still a felony, seeing as how Sephiran is left with a sucking chest wound, in OHKO range for someone else. I mean, isn't this still pretty good?

According to leopoldstotch in his 10 triangles on Sephiran video:

"Lehran has the Rudol Gem, which adds 10 to his def. It cannot be negated with Parity."

Additionally, if you can 1 turn the map with Giffca, and 2 turn the map with Mia + other schmuck, one of these things is better than the other.

EDIT: dammit, pressed "submit" in my haste. Please merge this post with the above one if it's not too bothersome.

Edited August 19, 2010 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

...I feel ignored.

In regards to the Robes, unless you're saying "fuk DB" they're likely being used. Ike caps HP with it, and of course the sooner we can slowplay BEXP with him the better. Jill really needs hers since it allows her to take two Cats and a Cat + Tiger (I think the latter requires some procing but mine was Def-screwed). Then there's Nolan who wants to stomach two Tigers. I might play 3-6 again though since I remember one phase he would have to stomach 3! Tigers but I might've accidentally counted the Reeds as no Mov penalty on untransformed laguz.

:(

EDIT: Nvm. Maybe giving Ike the Robe was a shitty idea.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Colonel M

[Florete]

I'm going to ask a question

You say this, but everyone who can use the KW is assumed to be using it? Correct?

For the most part yeah, because it can be traded around in the base freely. I don't think anyone is relying on it for 90+% of their levels, though.

[Colonel M]

Yeah okay, disregard what I said about the Robe on Ike. Probably was a terrible idea / etc. Now my Titania is literally butchered for Part 4.

Nice going CM can't you go through one playthrough without making retarded mistakes.

[Interceptor]

Focus your vision on that area just under the center of the map.

Take a look at the area just north of the center of the map. This is where Ike starts, and you can't re-deploy him. If your argument is that Titania can leverage her mobility by getting in his way, I'm going to go ahead and call that a net loss. I can't think of any scenario where it would be a good idea to support them together, either.

I've been through 4-1 a bunch of times, and experience has suggested to me that Titania is best over in the LHS, since Nailah solos the RHS and Ike + support partner bulldog center-to-bottom. There are things that she cannot double, but there are things that she can, and it's easy for Mist to both offer her support bonuses, keep Titania alive, and stay safe herself at the same time (natural chokepoints). But over there, Canto is about the only good thing going on.

Now, this is a singular strategy, and TIMTOWTDI, but there you go.

I am fairly confident in her ability to gain 5 or 6 levels with Paragon and some extra BEXP in the 4-1 and 4-4 bases.

This is probably the case, but I would interject that 1) you just gave Paragon to someone other than Ike, and 2) BEXP'ed levels are not friendly to her SPD in tier 3, which is mainly why we are giving her level-ups in the first place.

Now, this works in a void, and I don't know if Titania needs to have her forged Hand Axe equipped for the next enemy phase, but this works well if she doesn't.

And therein lies the rub. As I recall, it can get a little hairy over there if Titania is by herself, particularly if you end up going to Turn 8 and you get the Warrior/SM/Sniper air-drop twice in a row, keeping in mind that she's basically on her own as far as healing goes if she's alone. And naturally, the whole thing gets blown to shit if Titania can't double the Warrior, which happens a rather scary amount of the time, considering that Order Warriors have a 20SPD class base with a 70% SPD growth. The reinforcement Warriors are on the pointy end of that stick, with the highest level of them all. How confident are you that Titania is going to have capped STR and 32 AS, hmm?

According to leopoldstotch in his 10 triangles on Sephiran video:

"Lehran has the Rudol Gem, which adds 10 to his def. It cannot be negated with Parity."

Good. Care to answer my question, then?

Additionally, if you can 1 turn the map with Giffca, and 2 turn the map with Mia + other schmuck, one of these things is better than the other.

There is a Third Way<tm> here, called 1-turning the map with Mia, which is what I did. Having to take two shots at Sephiran doesn't cause a failure of the strategy. Mia is unbelievably easy to move around in 4-E-4, with complete freedom of placement, and the ability to get shoved by basically everyone but Sanaki. Giffca has +2 movement over her in a Vigored turn (no way to get him up to speed without Vigor, so we'll give it to Mia too) once he transforms, but he's a fatass and doesn't even have a 2-range option, so it's not as if he has no inherent disadvantages.

No offense to the king's shadow, but even though Giffster is useful here, I don't think that Mia is exactly coming out of this chapter looking like a chump.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Interceptor

[dondon151]

This is probably the case, but I would interject that 1) you just gave Paragon to someone other than Ike, and 2) BEXP'ed levels are not friendly to her SPD in tier 3, which is mainly why we are giving her level-ups in the first place.

You have 3 Paragons. Also, I was suggesting that we BEXP'd Titania to .99 in the 4-1 and 4-4 bases.

And therein lies the rub. As I recall, it can get a little hairy over there if Titania is by herself, particularly if you end up going to Turn 8 and you get the Warrior/SM/Sniper air-drop twice in a row, keeping in mind that she's basically on her own as far as healing goes if she's alone. And naturally, the whole thing gets blown to shit if Titania can't double the Warrior, which happens a rather scary amount of the time, considering that Order Warriors have a 20SPD class base with a 70% SPD growth. The reinforcement Warriors are on the pointy end of that stick, with the highest level of them all. How confident are you that Titania is going to have capped STR and 32 AS, hmm?

First, I never implied that Titania was doubling 28 AS warriors. Second, I'm about as confident with getting her to --/20/9 or maybe --/20/11 in the middle of the chapter as you were confident with getting Neph to --/??/10 in 4-2. Third, enemy stat variance in RD tends to be 1 point at most, if at all, and I'm taking those enemy stat samples at face value unless it can be clearly shown otherwise.

Good. Care to answer my question, then?

You can't figure it out yourself? Mia isn't "doritos" for the 4-E-4 clear anymore. There are so many units that are almost guaranteed deployment that can do at least exactly what Mia does, and then there's 1 guy who just blows her out of the water. Giving her no credit for this is obviously not right, but at best it's just a passing acknowledgement of a service in relatively high supply.

In the end we're arguing over nearly trivial advantages that Mia leverages very late in the game, trying to balance it as much as possible with Titania's incredible performance lead in part 3 in a desperate attempt to keep them in the same tier. If we're at the point where we have to grasp at these straws, I think it's pretty self-evident that the tier gap is justified.

There is a Third Way<tm> here, called 1-turning the map with Mia, which is what I did. Having to take two shots at Sephiran doesn't cause a failure of the strategy. Mia is unbelievably easy to move around in 4-E-4, with complete freedom of placement, and the ability to get shoved by basically everyone but Sanaki. Giffca has +2 movement over her in a Vigored turn (no way to get him up to speed without Vigor, so we'll give it to Mia too) once he transforms, but he's a fatass and doesn't even have a 2-range option, so it's not as if he has no inherent disadvantages.

Mia's 2 range option doesn't ORKO (not like you're going to deny this; I'm just stating the facts here). She does 16 x2 to Sephiran's 50 HP with Parity. She can't proc anything without Parity because Mantle nullifies crits, Adept, and Astra, i.e. all of the things that make Mia good (minus the high AS; Sephiran can't touch that). So then you need to get a second man in to smite Sephiran.

Edited August 19, 2010 by dondon151

[Interceptor]

You have 3 Paragons. Also, I was suggesting that we BEXP'd Titania to .99 in the 4-1 and 4-4 bases.

Paragon is still a limited resource, I could have used more than three of them myself. If we're giving one to Titania, we have to balance what we get out of it with what it costs us. The same goes for huge infusions of BEXP.

First, I never implied that Titania was doubling 28 AS warriors. Second, I'm about as confident with getting her to --/20/9 or maybe --/20/11 in the middle of the chapter as you were confident with getting Neph to --/??/10 in 4-2. Third, enemy stat variance in RD tends to be 1 point at most, if at all, and I'm taking those enemy stat samples at face value unless it can be clearly shown otherwise.

1) Do you realize that your forged Hand Axe + Forged Silver Axe combo 2HKO on a level 12 Warrior is the very definition of borderline? With 55 HP and 23 DEF, there is zero margin for error. Titania also needs max STR. If the Warrior procs 24 DEF or 56 HP you are Shit Out of Luck and someone needs to help her.

2) That does not answer the question that I asked you.

3) OK.

You can't figure it out yourself? A guaranteed 1 turn is significantly better than a shaky 2 turn. I'm surprised to hear this coming from you, especially with your insistence that strategies be as RNG-proof as possible.

Should have asked yourself why, then, before assuming that I was an idiot.

First, why do you keep calling Mia's 1-turn a 2-turn? Second, what's RNG-dangerous, here? You think that Mia's is going to get stat-screwed? Third, if Mia is not the best unit for this job, does this mean that she gets no credit for it? Explain to me what you are talking about, here.

Mia's 2 range option just simply doesn't ORKO. She does 16 x2 to Sephiran's 50 HP with Parity. She can't proc anything without Parity because Mantle nullifies crits, Adept, and Astra, i.e. all of the things that make Mia good (minus the high AS; Sephiran can't touch that). So then you need to get a second man in to smite Sephiran.

Her 1-range option doesn't ORKO either because of Rudol, as established, so the essential problem remains the same, except that she has a little bit more flexibility in terms of where she can stand.

EDIT: I like how you edited your post as I was replying to it.

In the end we're arguing over nearly trivial advantages that Mia leverages very late in the game, trying to balance it as much as possible with Titania's incredible performance lead in part 3 in a desperate attempt to keep them in the same tier. If we're at the point where we have to grasp at these straws, I think it's pretty self-evident that the tier gap is justified.

That's your interpretation, which is also favorable to your position, to nobody's great surprise. Titania is stomping Mia, she has an incredible performance lead in Part 3, Mia's advantages are trivial, a vaguely defined tier gap is self-evident, etc etc. Not only has your quest for Top Tier Titania been conducted largely via hyperbole, but now you've crossed over into to the land where people who are losing arguments tend to journey, which is to say that you start raising questions about your opponent's motivations (grasping at straws, desperate attempt, etc).

I'm responding to your sideshow about Titania vs. Mia because there are things for me to respond to, not because it's necessary to keep Titania where she is. The argument for Titania out of Top was made hours ago, it's called "Haar".

Edited August 19, 2010 by Interceptor

[dondon151]

Paragon is still a limited resource, I could have used more than three of them myself. If we're giving one to Titania, we have to balance what we get out of it with what it costs us. The same goes for huge infusions of BEXP.

It costs you EXP for a unit that you might not even be bringing to 4-E anyway. You get an ass kicker in 4-4 (and it's not like Titania is excluded from 4-E herself, because her only bad map is 4-E-5). Between 4 laguz royals, 1 almost laguz royal, and 1 extra staff user, it's not like we're in particular want of many other units in 4-E.

1) Do you realize that your forged Hand Axe + Forged Silver Axe combo 2HKO on a level 12 Warrior is the very definition of borderline? With 55 HP and 23 DEF, there is zero margin for error. Titania also needs max STR. If the Warrior procs 24 DEF or 56 HP you are Shit Out of Luck and someone needs to help her.

Tomahawk? Brave Axe?

2) That does not answer the question that I asked you.

You asked, and I quote, "how confident are you that Titania is going to have capped STR and 32 AS, hmm?" To which I strongly hinted at that if you managed to get Neph to --/??/10 after 1 part 4 map with a severe base level disadvantage, then there is absolutely no problem with getting Titania to that same level where she has capped str and 31 or 32 AS.

EDIT: I like how you edited your post as I was replying to it.

Well, that was a pretty poor paragraph, and work distracted me when I was in the process of editing it.

That's your interpretation, which is also favorable to your position, to nobody's great surprise. Titania is stomping Mia, she has an incredible performance lead in Part 3, Mia's advantages are trivial, a vaguely defined tier gap is self-evident, etc etc. Not only has your quest for Top Tier Titania been conducted largely via hyperbole, but now you've crossed over into to the land where people who are losing arguments tend to journey, which is to say that you start raising questions about your opponent's motivations (grasping at straws, desperate attempt, etc).

Int, I can't really be bothered to go into a deep analysis of how Titania shitstomps Mia in part 3, for 3 reasons - 1) there are way too many situations that I can cite to prove my point, and I don't have the time for that, 2) the evidence is already glaringly obvious in video format, and 3) I probably will end up having to respond to clever quips instead of actual arguments.

As for "raising questions about your opponent's motivations," I am only motivated to uncover the truth, nothing more.

I'm responding to your sideshow about Titania vs. Mia because there are things for me to respond to, not because it's necessary to keep Titania where she is. The argument for Titania out of Top was made hours ago, it's called "Haar".

You might as well take Ike, Mia (T), Titania (T), and Volug out of top tier as well, then. Of course, I'm fine with that alternative.

Edited August 19, 2010 by dondon151

[Soren37]

I'll go for Haar vs. Ike.

Haar comes in 2-P, with bases godly enough to ORKO all the dracoknights, and he needs a single STR proc to get the 18 DEF one, or he can pair up with Elincia, as her Slim Sword can weaken the 18 DEF enough. For the boss, pair Haar up with Nealuchi, or have Haar Vigored by Leanne. He's also essential for a quick 2-E, which is a bitch of a chapter to do if you try and use everyone. I think dondon did it in 3 or 4 turns. Either way, Haar is essential for clearing Part 2 efficiently.

In rolls Part 3. Haar is supposedly getting a Speedwing, which means he can now double in 3-2 except for SM. Ike will have probably gained 3 levels in 3-P and 3-1, and he's doing comparable with Haar. Haar's biggest advantages though are a 2-range game until Ike gets Ragnell, and Haar has flying utility. dondon was able to go through several levels quickly by using Haar to jump terrain and air-drop units that needed to get to that area. Plus he'll have enough space for a Saviour, which means he's not taking a penalty for rescuing. What else...9 MOV to 7, not locked to Swords, although Haar does have a lovely weakness to Thunder magic, but you can just keep a Pure Water on him to try and mitigate the effects. Or ORKO the buggers.

Ike is a good unit, and Earth affinity is nice, as well as the excellent STR, but his SPD is too shaky, as he's not hitting 34 SPD until 20/20, which means he's not getting there without some boosters. I know he's getting one Speedwing already, but what level will he be when he gets it? I'm none too sure, but it's safe to say that it's around level 17 so that he'll have a 25 average, so that he can take the BK without being doubled (or use a card). What else...transfers I guess.

Ike's getting...wait what? HP, STR, SKL, SPD, and DEF? Well, STR, SKL, SPD, and DEF makes sense, but the site lists his chance of capping HP as 0. I know he has a chance, but it's unlikely. Either way, it makes him just as good as Haar, as Haar only gets HP transfer, which is a nice durability buffer. With transfers, Ike will start with SKL capped, 1 point off of STR, 5 points off of SPD, but he's able to use a Speedwing for the wanted 27 AS. He'll also be 3 points off his DEF cap. Haar's transfer will make him start with HP capped.

As far as I can tell, Haar is shaving more turns than Ike, while doing it with only a Speedwing and a Crown later on.

[Florete]

I'll go for Haar vs. Ike.

No offense, but I'm pretty sure the comparison has already been done as well as it will be for the time being. All that's left now is to iron out small details and see the changes.

Ike's getting...wait what? HP, STR, SKL, SPD, and DEF? Well, STR, SKL, SPD, and DEF makes sense, but the site lists his chance of capping HP as 0.

PoR Ike gets a Robe due to being 1 of only about 3 units, iirc, who needs one to cap HP and uses the boost the best (because the others are like, Brom, who doesn't hardly get played, Gatrie, who only ends up with +1, and Haar, who is getting the other one already anyway).

[Shadow Mir]

I can't help but wonder, was Brom(T) being over Tauroneo ever explained? If it has been, I apologize. If not, can someone please explain it to me? Also, is Danved dropping to low tier concievable?

Edited August 20, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Florete]

I can't help but wonder, was Brom(T) being over Tauroneo ever explained? If it has been, I apologize. If not, can someone please explain it to me? Also, is Danved dropping to low tier cncievable?

It was argued at one point. I remember it happening, especially because that's something I never would have done myself, but unfortunately I don't remember the arguments used. Dunno about Danved.

[-Cynthia-]

18 base and 30% growth isn't much better than 16 base and 30% growth, doesn't save Brom's Part 3 certainly. It does help him on a few 2-1 enemies though (18 AS is too low for 2-2 and 2-E really), and since it's really only him and Neph there his offense matters. Then again, his current position is almost entirely 2-1 anyway, so meh.

Danved should stay where he is IMO. He has the highest base AS of anyone in 2-3, which helps him double an enemy here or there (also isn't doubled by Tashoria. Mov is an issue, but you can just Rescue drop him (Astrid/Mak don't have much better things to do turn 1). Then in 3-9 he can climb ledges and has about as decent combat as anyone. Yeah, Marcia can fly over ledges, but she can't tank a lot of enemies (neither can Calill obviously). Waste of time in 3-11 and beyond, but he has his uses.

[Colonel M]

If we're going for the 5 Turn clear, chances are Devdan won't reach the boss. Keiran is blocking the way and is already in threat of being attacked by the Halberdier. Geoffrey takes him down on Player + Enemy Phase with Brave Lance equipped with low chances of failure really (like we're talking the boss would have to crit him twice AND hit him on all 3 hits).

[dondon151]

By the way, the chance of failure for that strategy is 3.7%. Like CM said, Tashoria needs to hit 3 of 3 attacks at 59 hit (65.14 true) and needs to crit 2 of 3 attacks at 23 crit.

[-Cynthia-]

Devdan will never reach Tashoria CM he's stuck in PoR 3.7% is low, though not horribly so. Still, the point is that Danved actually does useful things for 2 chapters. This is probably enough to put him a tier over people like Lethe (who is useful for one chapter), Gareth/Lehran (useful for part of 4-E) etc. He's not *very* useful (or else he would be near Kieran/Geoff/royals etc.), but he's a decent enough combat unit on a team with not a lot of units.

Edited August 20, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Naglfar]

The way I see it, Lower Mid is a tier for units without much potential, or decent potential that they can't reach very easily due to being underlevelled, having below average bases, being stuck with a bad weapon type, etcetera, but do have a few maps in which they're well appreciated. Low tier is for units who have very little use or potential, such as especially late-joining underperformers like Renning, units who are around a fair bit but struggle to contribute like Lethe, or units with one very specific and very short-lived use like Nasir. Bottom tier is for units who start off terrible, stay terrible even when the player goes through the torture of raising them (for those who even have time for that), and have extremely minor usefulness that will virtually never be of any use at all (Oliver's mediocre Endgame healing, Astrid's pathetic chip damage, Meg's shoving, Fiona's... blocking ledges in 3-13... Lyre's, uh... Lyre's... never mind).

So in my mind, Danved fits Lower Mid. Unlike Low and Bottom tier units, using him in the long run isn't an entirely futile effort, just quite difficult and not overwhelmingly rewarding. If you don't want to use him seriously, there's still 2-3 and 3-9 that he can be useful in.

[Shadow Mir]

Devdan will never reach Tashoria CM he's stuck in PoR 3.7% is low, though not horribly so. Still, the point is that Danved actually does useful things for 2 chapters. This is probably enough to put him a tier over people like Lethe (who is useful for one chapter), Gareth/Lehran (useful for part of 4-E) etc. He's not *very* useful (or else he would be near Kieran/Geoff/royals etc.), but he's a decent enough combat unit on a team with not a lot of units.

But what exactly is he doing in 2-3 that's notable?? He might be able to double, but most of what he doubles is also doubled by Geoff and Kieran. That leaves not being DA'd by Tashoria as all he's got going for him (but in apite of that, he's worse off durability wise, considering that Danved dies in 2 crits, whereas Geoff's still standing in such a situation, and the bond Geoff has with Kieran punches Tashoria's crit down by 5 if Kieran's next to him).