OMG it's a tier list

[Soren37]

It's still a difference though. a change in 1% isn't the end of the world, but it does mean now that instead of Rolf activating X amount of times, Shinon will activate X+1 amount of times, which can help shave off turns.

[dondon151]

If you're relying on a +1% activation to shave off turns, you're doing it wrong.

[incognit0]

Or give it to Shinon because he doesn't require half as many resources that Rolf needs. I'm okay with the combo on the General, but for the rest of the time, Shinon has a better damage output than Rolf and can double more reliably.

He's good, but is he really outstripping Shinon by that much? Shinon needs no forge or combo kills to be useful. Rolf requires the use of well-placed combos, a forge, and a robe to prevent being SPD screwed.

I'm pretty sure Shinon's advantages you listed there are the reason why he is a whole tier higher. You can't complain that Rolf (T) is using more resources than Shinon if he is already placed on the tier list accordingly.

Soren(T) chips, too. Rolf chips. Plus, seeing as there are discussions about Crowning Soren, he then becomes a healbot.

Criticals, Deadeye activation, Disarm, Corrosion, Counter, Pavise, and durability against the auras that endgame can pull on you.

So 2% crit and mastery (and skills that are of little importance) are debatably as good as 6 STR?

Stop putting words in my mouth. Soren's chip is better due to targeting RES.

Although Rolf (T) can double without a crown, making his offense a little bit more than chip.

And Rolf is only good for one or two chapters. nflchamp's log, Interceptor's, and Colonel M dropped Rolf after two chapters and focused solely on Shinon. Why? He requires less resources and time to be useful.

This goes back to the argument about whether the tier player's goal is to do the fastest clear or use the character... because the whole point of Rolf (T) being so high is that after some effort, he becomes better than Shinon.

Edited August 23, 2010 by incognito123

[Interceptor]

And Rolf is only good for one or two chapters. nflchamp's log, Interceptor's, and Colonel M dropped Rolf after two chapters and focused solely on Shinon. Why? He requires less resources and time to be useful.

At the risk of making the same point that three other people are: nobody is disputing that Shinon is better than Rolf. That's why he's higher on the tier list.

Also, keep in mind that none of us were using transfers. If Rolf came over with his FE9 transfer bonuses, and Shinon did not exist, I probably would have used Rolf in my playthrough, in order to have someone who could use the Double Bow.

[eclipse]

The problem with being locked to 2 range is that you're usually either ORKOing or doing the opposite of cleanup duty. I would much rather chip than kill with Rolf because it saves another character from taking a counter, although occasionally exceptions can be made to give him a kill.

With the ranged swords, every melee unit has a way of doing chip damage. What I usually do is have people that can take hits/dodge in the front, then have my ranged units catch up and clean up, so the front line can move again. Soren gets chip priority over Shinon and Rolf. On other mages, it's Mist when she's got nothing better to do (don't ask).

Due to my distrust of the RNG, the front line is usually not too far ahead of everyone else (~3-4 squares, on average).

The Killer Ballista is really weak. Like, it does 8 HP damage to halbs weak. You can hardly rely on that to kill anything. Your best option would be occasional crits against fire sages (they take 14 of 35 HP damage), plus they're the ones that you should target first anyway because they're a nuisance to the other units.

The Sages are usually my first target. They're squishy.

Even if the Ballistae are weak, it means experience for Rolf that he wouldn't have if he was trying to keep up with everyone in that narrow map . Hell, Shinon gets the occasional Ballista duty, because there's too many people in too small an area.

It's still a difference though. a change in 1% isn't the end of the world, but it does mean now that instead of Rolf activating X amount of times, Shinon will activate X+1 amount of times, which can help shave off turns.

IMO, that's too small a difference to be arguing over, and definitely too small a difference to move someone up or down.

[Soren37]

Sorry about the skill activations then. However, no one's touched the points I brought up about the other characters utilities.

[RNG Princess]

I assume transfered Rolf is the Jill version for the archer class.

Certainly Shinnon is better than Rolf(T) at first but with some effort, because he shouldn't have trouble keeping up, Rolf(T)'s contribution on later chapters would be even better than Shinnon's.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[alfredo094]

Or give it to Shinon because he doesn't require half as many resources that Rolf needs. I'm okay with the combo on the General, but for the rest of the time, Shinon has a better damage output than Rolf and can double more reliably.

...Or give it to Rolf(T) becaue Shinon doesn't need the kill anyway. And Rolf(T) can double reliably

Soren(T) chips, too. Rolf chips. Plus, seeing as there are discussions about Crowning Soren, he then becomes a healbot.

Considering that you're denying Rolf 4 levels, I doubt you would give Soren 5.

He's good, but is he really outstripping Shinon by that much? Shinon needs no forge or combo kills to be useful. Rolf requires the use of well-placed combos, a forge, and a robe to prevent being SPD screwed.

...No, he isn't. That's why Shinon is a whole tier higher. And I don't see why Rold shouldn't take the robe. We're giving the Speedwing to Titania because, as much as I hate to admit it (for now), she makes a great use of it. Ditto with Rolf.

Criticals, Deadeye activation, Disarm, Corrosion, Counter, Pavise, and durability against the auras that endgame can pull on you.

1-2% crit and Deadeye, and that useless thing that people call Counter? Sorry, it's not worth even mentioning. Corrosion is doing the same at 20/20/10, and I doubt that you're not outright killing the enemy anyway, even if you proc Corrosion. Pavise goes to Micaiah or someone like that. And lol auras, stick a provoke to someone with high RES or avoid that doesn't have 2-range.

Did you know that death makes it hard to hurt people? That's why when we argued Mist and Rhys' placement, we didn't care about their combat. It was all about their healing.

When we were debating them, we were debating with healers. Anyway, I doubt that having one unit using a vulnerary is hurting your turn count significantly. They help, but without people that actually fight, they're nothing.

Stop putting words in my mouth. Soren's chip is better due to targeting RES, and Marcia's flyer utility is ten times greater than whatever pretty words you can say about Rolf.

Soren doesn't double, so they're doing about the ame damage on early Part III... and then Rolf levels and he surpasses Soren. And which is this "Marcia utility" you're talking about? She doesn't show up at like

And Rolf is only good for one or two chapters. nflchamp's log, Interceptor's, and Colonel M dropped Rolf after two chapters and focused solely on Shinon. Why? He requires less resources and time to be useful.

As it's already said, they didn't use transfers.

Edited August 24, 2010 by alfredo094

[Colonel M]

I have more to add with the Mist vs. Rhys thing. I have just reached 3-11.

Mist has been used with the Pocket Mist<tm> treatment for 3-8 and 3-10. While it's fine that she is used for a support battery for Titania, there lies a second problem: she will never heal during these. At the very best she can heal on Turn 1 of 3-8 and possibly Turn 2. Mist requires full time carrying in 3-10. Rhys has still been useful in the meantime. In 3-8 Haar hates facing things that can use Magic, and they are rather abundant on the map. While Pure Water helps when he's attempting to exterminate the area that Septimus and his lackeys are at, he still likely requires Physic healing to keep himself at safety. It's also convenient in 3-11, I would bet, but I wonder how many times Haar will have to take a serious beating. I'll have to play 3-11.

Also, as dumb as it sounds, I might consider arguing Oscar up later in life. Meh, I dunno. I always have been confused with tier lists and their premises I guess.

Then again my run through is pretty much worthless.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Colonel M

[alfredo094]

So you're making up arguments as you go? Jut for curiosity, how many times have you finished the game (counting this one)?

[Soren37]

...Or give it to Rolf(T) becaue Shinon doesn't need the kill anyway. And Rolf(T) can double reliably

Or give it to Shinon because he can put it to better use.

Considering that you're denying Rolf 4 levels, I doubt you would give Soren 5.

When the fuck did I ever say that?

...No, he isn't. That's why Shinon is a whole tier higher. And I don't see why Rold shouldn't take the robe. We're giving the Speedwing to Titania because, as much as I hate to admit it (for now), she makes a great use of it. Ditto with Rolf.

1-2% crit and Deadeye, and that useless thing that people call Counter? Sorry, it's not worth even mentioning. Corrosion is doing the same at 20/20/10, and I doubt that you're not outright killing the enemy anyway, even if you proc Corrosion. Pavise goes to Micaiah or someone like that. And lol auras, stick a provoke to someone with high RES or avoid that doesn't have 2-range.

I meant the multiple attacks that Dheg, Lekain, Seph and Ashera can pull on you.

When we were debating them, we were debating with healers. Anyway, I doubt that having one unit using a vulnerary is hurting your turn count significantly. They help, but without people that actually fight, they're nothing.

We were debating healers because their combat is a piece of crap. Mist has 22 ATK, when in the flying fuck is she going to go up and attack something that isn't called "a sage"? Her healing and her Titania support >>>>>>> Rolf chipping or even becoming a good Endgame unit.

Soren doesn't double, so they're doing about the ame damage on early Part III... and then Rolf levels and he surpasses Soren. And which is this "Marcia utility" you're talking about? She doesn't show up at like

lolunfinished sentence. Anyhow, Soren targets RES, which is something that most physical units don't have much of. Marcia can fly, so she can transport units, avoid terrain, and pull off hit-and-runs. Rolf can't carry anyone of importance to another area, and I know you get Haar, but that's why Haar is in Top Tier. Marcia's ability to help get the 2-E Dracoshield and stave off the reinforcements with a Horseslayer on the LHS in 2-3.

As it's already said, they didn't use transfers.

Fine.

[Colonel M]

So you're making up arguments as you go? Jut for curiosity, how many times have you finished the game (counting this one)?

Uh, I am merely adding more to the discussion at hand here, which was wrt Mist vs. Rhys.

EDIT: Yes I know the current discussion at the moment is with Shinon and Rolf (T). Doesn't really change my point here.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Tyranel M

[incognit0]

Or give it to Shinon because he can put it to better use.

Rather, Rolf can get them because, you know, the fact that we're USING Rolf (T) later in the game (endgame?) means that he is entitled to kills.

"Don't give Shinon kills, (Ike/Haar/Mia/Titania/Gatrie) can put it to better use"

Edited August 24, 2010 by incognito123

[Soren37]

Rather, Rolf can get them because, you know, the fact that we're USING Rolf (T) later in the game (endgame?) means that he is entitled to kills.

"Don't give Shinon kills, (Ike/Haar/Mia/Titania/Gatrie) can put it to better use"

We're assuming that we're using Shinon and Rolf(T), and Shinon does put it to better use (higher level means less effort), but how is Rolf(T) performing better than Mist's healing, Marcia's air-drops, Heather's steals, Brom's 2 chapter necessity, and Big T? We'll leave him above Soren(T) for now, as that'll be a whole other loop.

[alfredo094]

Or give it to Shinon because he can put it to better use.

...Or give it to Rolf becaus he needs it more? ...Sorry, coudln't resist. Shinon can do something that his bases are worth doing by then. As in, ORKOing a halb or something.

When the fuck did I ever say that?

You're saying that giving Rolf(T) isn't worth giving four levels in about 2 or 3 chapters because Shinon exists.

I meant the multiple attacks that Dheg, Lekain, Seph and Ashera can pull on you.

3 range = solved. And about Ashera, I'm 100% sure that Rolf(T) can stand both DEF and RES-targeting area attacks

We were debating healers because their combat is a piece of crap. Mist has 22 ATK, when in the flying fuck is she going to go up and attack something that isn't called "a sage"? Her healing and her Titania support >>>>>>> Rolf chipping or even becoming a good Endgame unit.

Rolf(T)'s support is like Mist's, just that in the offensive way. Rolf has a nice crit, great STR, and good enough SPD so he eventually starts ORKOing or leaving enemies at low HP (not that far, at like, idk, 3-4? Maybe too early).

lolunfinished sentence. Anyhow, Soren targets RES, which is something that most physical units don't have much of. Marcia can fly, so she can transport units, avoid terrain, and pull off hit-and-runs. Rolf can't carry anyone of importance to another area, and I know you get Haar, but that's why Haar is in Top Tier. Marcia's ability to help get the 2-E Dracoshield and stave off the reinforcements with a Horseslayer on the LHS in 2-3.

...I thought I had 3-11 at the end of there. Probably edited it out accidentally.

Targeting RES is an advantage, but since everyone is doubling, Soren is either doing decent damage or just chipping.

We're assuming that we're using Shinon and Rolf(T), and Shinon does put it to better use (higher level means less effort), but how is Rolf(T) performing better than Mist's healing, Marcia's air-drops, Heather's steals, Brom's 2 chapter necessity, and Big T? We'll leave him above Soren(T) for now, as that'll be a whole other loop.

lolwut. Higher level never means that the character is easier to use. IS can just crew up the base stats, and Sigrun and Oliver are living proof.

Mist's healign is nice, but that's why she's top of mid (I think, I'll check and edit if neccesary).

I dunno what you see on Marcia's air-drops. She's saving you of... what?

Heather's steals include only a handful of items (check the money, it is significant but not necceary, although I don't have the exact gold), and some BEXP from the chapter where there are a couple of bishops (can't remember which, I think it is 3-4 or something like that).

Edward is neccesary for like 4 chapters. Let's bump him up a bit. Being necceary does not give you extra points for the stuff you do on chapters.

Big T is barely around. Like what, 4 chapters? And in 2 he can hog your already limited EXP.

Edited August 24, 2010 by alfredo094

[Soren37]

...Or give it to Rolf becaus he needs it more? ...Sorry, coudln't resist. Shinon can do something that his bases are worth doing by then. As in, ORKOing a halb or something.

Fair enough.

You're saying that giving Rolf(T) isn't worth giving four levels in about 2 or 3 chapters because Shinon exists.

I guess I am.

3 range = solved. And about Ashera, I'm 100% sure that Rolf(T) can stand both DEF and RES-targeting area attacks

Ashera can attack from 1-3 squares away. And the attacks can hit from a massive range. Shinon has the lead in durability, while Rolf has the advantage of being able to kill quickly and has some durability due to an HP cushion.

Rolf(T)'s support is like Mist's, just that in the offensive way. Rolf has a nice crit, great STR, and good enough SPD so he eventually starts ORKOing or leaving enemies at low HP (not that far, at like, idk, 3-4? Maybe too early).

He's maybe gaining 1 level per chapter with kills going his way. He needs to be about level 8 (3-7) with 24 SPD to reliably double the generic units that aren't SM. Unless you baby him or give him BEXP, which is just silly.

...I thought I had 3-11 at the end of there. Probably edited it out accidentally.

Targeting RES is an advantage, but since everyone is doubling, Soren is either doing decent damage or just chipping.

I find your points about Soren vs. Rolf(T) persuasive. Maybe Rolf(T) should drop to just above Soren(T)?

EDIT: Wait, you put more in?!

Well, Mist is queen of Mid for her healing. However, we've had several debates about her placement in comparison to Rhys, and the best we can come up with is slashing the two (RhysN/T/MistN) as we couldn't see if +10 base MAG was better than +3 move and canto.

Marcia can air-drop someone in like Shinon maybe. I don't know. She flies, though, which means terrain doesn't affect her and she has canto, which ranks highly on tier lists.

Sure, he's barely around. Although he's necessary for a quick-clear of 1-6-2, can help tank in 1-6-1 and seeing as he gets the Crown in Part 3, he can help in 3-12 and 3-13 against the merciless waves of laguz.

As for Edward, I'm iffy. I understand his necessity, but his bases just don't pull him out fast enough. And because EXP is now 7 or 8 per hit, he's taking forever to get out of that hole unless we favourite him a tiny bit. We almost need a HM playlog that uses Eddie so that we can place him a bit more accurately.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Soren37

[dondon151]

Why does the player want to give the Seraph Robe to Rolf (T) just to help BEXP his spd up? Why don't other characters who, you know, make use of the durability increase from +7 HP take the Seraph Robe? Titania is more than 7 HP away from her cap and could use it to buffer her durability throughout the game (since she apparently doesn't get a +avo support). Neph won't even come close to capping her HP and won't make it to --/20 anyway, and she doesn't get a +avo support either, so she wants it. Oscar instantly caps HP, which helps him BEXP for str and def. You could feasibly make a case that anyone who sees a relatively large amount of enemy phase combat makes a better recipient of the Seraph Robe than Rolf (T).

[alfredo094]

Ashera can attack from 1-3 squares away. And the attacks can hit from a massive range. Shinon has the lead in durability, while Rolf has the advantage of being able to kill quickly and has some durability due to an HP cushion.

IIRC Ashera EDIT: CAN'T counter at 3 range.

...

He's maybe gaining 1 level per chapter with kills going his way. He needs to be about level 8 (3-7) with 24 SPD to reliably double the generic units that aren't SM. Unless you baby him or give him BEXP, which is just silly.

...Are you proving my point?

I find your points about Soren vs. Rolf(T) persuasive. Maybe Rolf(T) should drop to just above Soren(T)?

That's half a tier. I don't think it's that fair.

Edited August 24, 2010 by alfredo094

[Soren37]

IIRC Ashera can counter at 3 range.

Exactly what I said.

...Are you proving my point?

I'm stubborn as a mule. We'll call this a Schrödinger's Response, where I am both simultaneously agreeing and disagreeing with your point.

That's half a tier. I don't think it's that fair.

A lot of things aren't fair. The thing is, though, is that the people that are below him are contributing more to their chapters than he is. In general, utilities > combat, unless the character can't use their utility worth a crap.

[incognit0]

how is Rolf(T) performing better than Mist's healing, Marcia's air-drops, Heather's steals, Brom's 2 chapter necessity, and Big T? We'll leave him above Soren(T) for now, as that'll be a whole other loop.

Rolf:

Rolf's player phase becomes pretty awesome after a shaky start that keeps him down. In addition, he caps speed and strength naturally, something that Shinon doesn't (Rolf caps STR at 20/11 while Shinon caps speed at 20/11 and Rolf at 20/15).

Heather:

Most likely gets us a Rescue staff, energy drop, dracoshield, a physic (never actually done this myself) and is very useful for sending the blizzard in the west room of 4-4 to Bastian.

How is this better than Rolf is my question? The Rescue staff can be obtained at more difficulty, though not outrageous difficulty without Heather, and while the draco, energy drop and physic are big losses, that compromises the entire worth of Heather, minus her awful combat. I've personally never seen her get this Ettard in 3-4 without sacrificing time that is not well spent, considering how money for a forge is not a problem.

Marcia comes to the mercs in 3-11. When you field her, she offers little combat and a flying utility already provided by forced Tanith and Sigrun, and the hawks who are miles better than her at combat. No real need for ferrying people not named Leanne as long as you have a flying unit stand on a pitfall in the 3rd(?) row.

Mists healing I won't even get into as comparing healers to combat units is stupid considering the plethora of other combat units you mentioned.

Brom:

Necessary in 2-1, not as much in 2-2. Very useful and makes the chapter a whole lot easier, but just about every unit here does. He is getting waaayyy outpreformed by Lucia, Neph, Neal, and Leanne for example. I don't know, maybe you put a lot of value into those two chapters, but I'm not seeing it. In 2-2 he's pretty much like Rolf for his entire existence, solid, but bettered by other units. Except Rolf has around 13 chapters compared to one. Although Brom is awesome in 2-1.

EDIT: *facepalm* I'm too slow

Edited August 24, 2010 by incognito123

[Soren37]

So maybe Rolf(T) goes below Mist(N), but above Marcia(N)? It's either that or we start debating them down, and I don't feel like that right now.

[RNG Princess]

Marcia comes to the mercs in 3-11. When you field her, she offers little combat and a flying utility already provided by forced Tanith and Sigrun, and the hawks who are miles better than her at combat. No real need for ferrying people not named Leanne as long as you have a flying unit stand on a pitfall in the 3rd(?) row.

Ferrying in 3-11 is useful though, it certainly would help "Rolf(T)" catch up because of his move and if you want him to get plenty experience then he certainly needs to catch up before Tibarn finishes everything off (unless you put him on halt). Or you could leave him with the enemy paladins then he's going to need a crossbow to catch some experience on enemy phase.

Having Marcia, Tanith, Sigrun, Haar, Ulki, and Jannaf allows having 3 low move characters be rescue-dropped and ready for the next turn.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Fenrir]

Rolf(t) vs shinnon are you shitting me? i still think heather beats rolf(t) but i'll try and make an arguement anyways.

Rolf needs a seraph robe, and would probly need a paragon, possibly a speedwing as well. seraph should go to Titan or at least neph, paragon to jill or someone from DB, and the speedwing should go, haar, titan and then Ike/Boyd. So every resource rolf wants is taken, including babying, we have to lose turns to get him good. Also, Shinnon needs absolutely 0 resources.(aside from bows of course)

[Soren37]

Rolf(t) vs shinnon are you shitting me? i still think heather beats rolf(t) but i'll try and make an arguement anyways.

mmkay I'll see what I can do.

Rolf needs a seraph robe

That was only in the event of SPD screwage. His SPD will be high enough after he caps HP with a Robe in Part 4 with BEXP.

and would probly need a paragon

We never discussed that, probably because some people can use it ten times better. You could probably stick it on Shinon to mitigate the EXP losses, but we never discussed it.

possibly a speedwing as well

No way. Other people want it more. Rolf can emo-cry himself to sleep over that.

seraph should go to Titan or at least neph

dondon mentioned that.

paragon to jill or someone from DB

I think that most people send Paragon over with Ilyana

and the speedwing should go, haar, titan and then Ike/Boyd

Unless we're seriously considering Boyd, he has no need of a Speedwing. Nolan can roflstomp in every category.

So every resource rolf wants is taken, including babying, we have to lose turns to get him good. Also, Shinnon needs absolutely 0 resources.(aside from bows of course)

I've tried that argument, and it seems that you can let him combo kill with people.

[Fenrir]

That was only in the event of SPD screwage. His SPD will be high enough after he caps HP with a Robe in Part 4 with BEXP.

We never discussed that, probably because some people can use it ten times better. You could probably stick it on Shinon to mitigate the EXP losses, but we never discussed it.

No way. Other people want it more. Rolf can emo-cry himself to sleep over that.

dondon mentioned that.

I think that most people send Paragon over with Ilyana

Unless we're seriously considering Boyd, he has no need of a Speedwing. Nolan can roflstomp in every category.

I've tried that argument, and it seems that you can let him combo kill with people.

we'll if he's speed screwed he is dead.

Never discussed but it seems important to me, low level units want paragon, he cannot have it though.

which he will be crying because his spot on the team is taken on all effeciant PTs

and im mentioning it again because its important for people to know this.

Most people are wasting a paragon then, who are we going to give it to besides rolf?

Nolan should never be on the same team as Boyd, so i dont see why there is a comparison, if we're saying one unit from every class, Jill wouldn't be used, along with many others.

A unit who is always ORKOing is > a unit that takes a while to ORKO and isnt even that much better amirite?