OMG it's a tier list

[Soren37]

we'll if he's speed screwed he is dead.

Which is why we take steps to prevent it.

Never discussed but it seems important to me, low level units want paragon, he cannot have it though.

And why can't Rolf have it? He's low leveled, and becomes quite good once he gains a few levels. At level 6, his STR his outdoing Shinon's base and they're tied for SPD.

which he will be crying because his spot on the team is taken on all effeciant PTs

In most efficiency logs, Rolf is benched. However, those logs didn't have transfers. Rolf(T) is able to climb out of his hole faster, and can combo-kill with other people to give him the EXP.

Most people are wasting a paragon then, who are we going to give it to besides rolf?

in Part 3? Ike, Shinon, Titania, Mia, maybe Mist or Rhys? It's probably best on Mia, as she has the lowest level of the GMs that we use on a regular basis.

Nolan should never be on the same team as Boyd, so i dont see why there is a comparison, if we're saying one unit from every class, Jill wouldn't be used, along with many others.

I never said on the same team. I just said that why are we wasting resources on Boyd when we have another axe user that blows him out of the water?

A unit who is always ORKOing is > a unit that takes a while to ORKO and isnt even that much better amirite?

At the start, yes. However, it flows into A unit that always ORKOs = A unit that can always ORKO once it gets past its start.

[Interceptor]

I have a feeling that I'm wasting my time by making this post. But, hope springs eternal, maybe this volley will penetrate the RDF.

To the folks who are saying that "X can't have Y", or "Z isn't being used": you are Missing The Point<tm>. When we are ranking units, we try to assume that the units are used efficiently in the context of their own army. Sometimes this means that a lower-tiered unit gets resources that might have ordinarily have gone to some other better unit, such as perhaps in the case of a Seraph Robe on Rolf.

All that this means is that we need to account for the fact that whoever Rolf is being compared against, does not have to give the Robe to Rolf; they can give it to someone else, like Titania. This reduces the net benefit of giving a Robe to Rolf, by approximately what his opponent's army gets out of it. Sometimes this is a net negative, aka it's a bad idea, but it's not always the case.

Personally, I'm not convinced that giving a Robe to Rolf(T) is a good idea for for him, but the potential is there. Titania is not going to suck if she doesn't have a Seraph Robe. In Rolf's army, we can give Titania the Draco/Talisman for a partial durability boost, coupled with a Secret Book to maintain her ability to BEXP for +SPD in tier 2. This salvages most of her performance. Whether that's enough to overcome the fact that Rolf(T)'s opponent can just give her the Robe straight-up and have a better asskicker in addition to being able to just field Shinon, I don't know, but that's why these arguments get complicated.

[dondon151]

I think the Rolf (T) debaters are getting too hung up over trivial matters to see the important arguments. Namely:

Rolf (T) needs to double to be any good. He has 21 base AS; you need 23 AS to double in 3-1 and 24 AS to double in 3-3. 25 AS carries you through in 3-8 and 3-10. The real barriers to him getting 21 AS are 1) Speedwings are highly competed for and almost certainly better used on Titania, Haar, or a potentially spd screwed Ike, 2) despite having a low base level, he generally faces the least amount of combat and is not generally used for kills, and 3) spd is tied for 3rd highest growth, and Seraph Robes are also competed for. He is, however, relatively cheap to put to .99 in the base. Doubling before 3-7 is pretty much out of reach (he needs 7 levels just for 3-3 and 3-4, and 3-5 is over in the blink of an eye). He needs to get 9 levels before 3-8. Judging from CM's playlog, he barely got Neph to --/10 by 3-8, but I'd say it's definitely possible to get Rolf (T) to that level if the player intends on using him.

Now whether it's efficient to use him is a whole 'nother case, one that I won't bother to partake in. It's not like snipers do you much good in part 4 routs, because you need a whole lot of enemy phase power there, and snipers don't have any.

[Fenrir]

Which is why we take steps to prevent it.

And why can't Rolf have it? He's low leveled, and becomes quite good once he gains a few levels. At level 6, his STR his outdoing Shinon's base and they're tied for SPD.

In most efficiency logs, Rolf is benched. However, those logs didn't have transfers. Rolf(T) is able to climb out of his hole faster, and can combo-kill with other people to give him the EXP.

in Part 3? Ike, Shinon, Titania, Mia, maybe Mist or Rhys? It's probably best on Mia, as she has the lowest level of the GMs that we use on a regular basis.

I never said on the same team. I just said that why are we wasting resources on Boyd when we have another axe user that blows him out of the water?

At the start, yes. However, it flows into A unit that always ORKOs = A unit that can always ORKO once it gets past its start.

like what?

a good rolf or a good Jill, which would you rather have?

he still has a hole, and its just a little to deep.

Titan starts at such a high level she doesn't need it, Ike is godawesome and wont need something to help him get xp, Shinnon is fine, and mia is similar to Ike.

But why is this of any relavence?

Look, Shinnon never has any trouble with ORKOing or durability, neither does rolf in latergame, the difference is that rolf takes a few chapters to get good and really has nothing special to offer, on top of that he might take some resouces. Its like buying a premium porn membnership, its kinda cool but you have to pay money(in rolfs case resources) for it and its not gonna make your orgasms better.

[Junkhead]

Look, Shinon never has any trouble with ORKOing or durability, neither does rolf in latergame, the difference is that rolf takes a few chapters to get good and really has nothing special to offer, on top of that he might take some resouces. Its like buying a premium porn membnership, its kinda cool but you have to pay money(in rolfs case resources) for it and its not gonna make your orgasms better.

He may miss on 1RKOs if he doesn't have an Str proc or a +Atk support with Silencer. But this isn't worse than Rolf, of course...

[RNG Princess]

I don't think paragon is a good idea on Rolf(T) efficient-wise because he lacks enemy-phase unless he has a crossbow and the crossbows are kind of rare. I do think he's a decent candidate for BEXP though since like dondon said its cheap on him.

[Anouleth]

I have a feeling that I'm wasting my time by making this post. But, hope springs eternal, maybe this volley will penetrate the RDF.

To the folks who are saying that "X can't have Y", or "Z isn't being used": you are Missing The Point<tm>. When we are ranking units, we try to assume that the units are used efficiently in the context of their own army. Sometimes this means that a lower-tiered unit gets resources that might have ordinarily have gone to some other better unit, such as perhaps in the case of a Seraph Robe on Rolf.

All that this means is that we need to account for the fact that whoever Rolf is being compared against, does not have to give the Robe to Rolf; they can give it to someone else, like Titania. This reduces the net benefit of giving a Robe to Rolf, by approximately what his opponent's army gets out of it. Sometimes this is a net negative, aka it's a bad idea, but it's not always the case.

Personally, I'm not convinced that giving a Robe to Rolf(T) is a good idea for for him, but the potential is there. Titania is not going to suck if she doesn't have a Seraph Robe. In Rolf's army, we can give Titania the Draco/Talisman for a partial durability boost, coupled with a Secret Book to maintain her ability to BEXP for +SPD in tier 2. This salvages most of her performance. Whether that's enough to overcome the fact that Rolf(T)'s opponent can just give her the Robe straight-up and have a better asskicker in addition to being able to just field Shinon, I don't know, but that's why these arguments get complicated.

I merely mentioned the Robe since if you intend to take Rolf to Endgame, it's not an awful idea. If you don't have such grand schemes for our moss-headed twerp, that's fine, but the option exists.

I don't even think the Robe is very good on Titania. iirc, she's still two points off her cap with a 60% growth. Better just to give her a Dracoshield, which caps DEF, and throw in a support. That + her promotion bonuses should be enough.

[alfredo094]

Fenrir, are you actually arguing Shinon vs. Rolf? If it is so, we've stated several times that Shinon is a whole tier up him, case closed.

If you aren't, then I don't know what are you doing. And can you use more proper gremar?

[dondon151]

I don't even think the Robe is very good on Titania. iirc, she's still two points off her cap with a 60% growth. Better just to give her a Dracoshield, which caps DEF, and throw in a support. That + her promotion bonuses should be enough.

The point isn't to cap her HP to ease BEXP level ups (since she should cap spd on average anyway naturally with a Speedwings). Granted, it's a nice bonus if she does cap, but it's more to buffer her durability because she still takes damage from enemies (especially without any form of earth support). And it's not always practical to give her a support or to assume that she will always have one in range.

Edited August 25, 2010 by dondon151

[Anouleth]

The point isn't to cap her HP to ease BEXP level ups (since she should cap spd on average anyway naturally with a Speedwings). Granted, it's a nice bonus if she does cap, but it's more to buffer her durability because she still takes damage from enemies (especially without any form of earth support). And it's not always practical to give her a support or to assume that she will always have one in range.

Well, I'll take your word for it since I haven't played Part 3 efficiently myself. But surely a Dracoshield is still a better choice than a Seraph Robe, unless you're suggesting we give her both?

[dondon151]

We could give her both. After all, concentrating resources is the name of the game. Titania's not invincible like Ike is without any help, and she's one of the few units that cares enough about concrete durability to warrant getting the boosters (especially since she's mounted and sees more combat than infantry units, and has a lower likelihood of having a healer in range to heal her without Physic).

[Fenrir]

He may miss on 1RKOs if he doesn't have an Str proc or a +Atk support with Silencer. But this isn't worse than Rolf, of course...

he has an awesome crit, and of course its better than rolf.

Fenrir, are you actually arguing Shinon vs. Rolf? If it is so, we've stated several times that Shinon is a whole tier up him, case closed.

If you aren't, then I don't know what are you doing. And can you use more proper gremar?

no, im arguing rolf for lower-mid tier.

nah ill stick wiv bad gramer

i see what u did thar...or was it another typo?

[RNG Princess]

Rolf(N) should go below Ilyana(N) imo.

Using them will probably have the player to slow down but she contributes a little bit more than he does.

Rolf's

He's got 3-P and 3-1 for chipping.

3-2 is over in a snap but maybe he can help to chip a turn or two

3-3 Competes for a spot but he can be deployed I guess to chip and burn things and visit houses.

3-4 maybe he can play shove bot but he's not reaching many enemies unless het goes right and if he does he's going to need shielding.

3-5 Over in a blink maybe he can use ballistae just to gain experience

3-7+ Unless he gained crazy levels and stat gains he's more likely not contributing much.

Ilyana's

In 1-3 and 1-4 she's useful for chipping

1-5 she can be deployed just to weaken things

1-6 another free deployment (rout chapter so she's helpful)

1-6-2 Doesn't even count but she can help with nearby enemies

1-7 Competes for a spot but not necessarily the worst candidate either.

1-8 wyvern enemy makes her a decent candidate to deploy

1-E She can be deployed for the free speedwing I guess but her hit is terrible by now unless she's promoted and even then she has issues so I won't count this.

If her hit is decent enough maybe she can help chip something in 3-2 but she's going to require too much work to maintain useful for Part 3 so I won't count anything else for her.

Her chipping is actually good in Part 1 while his is iffy iirc.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Naglfar]

Really, let's take a closer look at what we can do for Rolf(T).

As mentioned earlier, BEXPing him to .99 is cheap. If you transferred Rolf, I imagine you're using him in the long run, so why not? If he can get Paragon for any period of time, he'll be even better. He could hit --/10, and 25 speed (and 25 strength), quite reasonably during 3-7, earlier if you're hardcore. After that, he's done, he can give Paragon back to Mia or whoever and go back to levelling normally. He won't want BEXP either, because he doesn't care much for stats other than strength and speed, and most of his levels will be HP-luck-whatever anyway, assuming he didn't get a robe. Further down the track, he's not a bad candidate for the 3-11 crown. Of course he'll be using it after strength and maybe speed cap, which isn't far off and could feasibly happen during P3.

The most important point I'd like to make here is that the player is very likely not transferring units just so they can do crappy chip for a few chapters before being benched. It just doesn't make any sense. Argue this post in other ways if you will, but the first person to cry favouritism and nothing else is going to be smacked with the second Silencer.

[dondon151]

As mentioned earlier, BEXPing him to .99 is cheap.

Let me qualify my earlier statement: BEXPing Rolf roughly costs a bit over half as much BEXP as BEXPing Titania, but it certainly doesn't mean that you can go about doing it willy-nilly. Using CM's run as an example, he chose not to get Ulki and Janaff to level 30 for Tear and spent it on his other infantry units, yet they are still mostly relatively underleveled. Now, I wouldn't mind dropping one of them as it will probably have little to no effect, but Rolf (T) only gets free passes for the equivalent of maybe a couple BEXP'd levels at best.

If you transferred Rolf, I imagine you're using him in the long run, so why not?

The existence of Rolf (T), at least if we assumed optimal deployment, does not justify his deployment. The transfer units exist in a void, and no consideration is taken regarding the amount of time spent to get them.

If he can get Paragon for any period of time, he'll be even better. He could hit --/10, and 25 speed (and 25 strength), quite reasonably during 3-7, earlier if you're hardcore. After that, he's done, he can give Paragon back to Mia or whoever and go back to levelling normally.

The GMs don't have any Paragons available to them until 3-11. Unless you transfer Paragon from the DB (which has its own claim to it; namely, Jill wants it because flying + good offense + good spd cap pretty much seals the deal for any effort needed to make her useful in the long term), there is no way to bolster his EXP gain. Now, I suppose you could make a case for giving him Blossom (since BEXP'd levels early on are relatively cheap and Rolf doesn't gain much CEXP from chipping anyway), but basically every other unit who has limited levels to gain before part 4 would like it. Especially for those super short maps like 3-5. Heck, you could probably even make a case for 3-4 being "short," as much of the enemy density is inaccessible if you're progressing with any sense of urgency.

[Naglfar]

Let me qualify my earlier statement: BEXPing Rolf roughly costs a bit over half as much BEXP as BEXPing Titania, but it certainly doesn't mean that you can go about doing it willy-nilly. Using CM's run as an example, he chose not to get Ulki and Janaff to level 30 for Tear and spent it on his other infantry units, yet they are still mostly relatively underleveled. Now, I wouldn't mind dropping one of them as it will probably have little to no effect, but Rolf (T) only gets free passes for the equivalent of maybe a couple BEXP'd levels at best.

I never said it was free, I just said it was cheap.

The existence of Rolf (T), at least if we assumed optimal deployment, does not justify his deployment. The transfer units exist in a void, and no consideration is taken regarding the amount of time spent to get them.

Whether or not it's justified, it's common sense. I don't see how we can disregard common sense in a tier list. Besides, as you may have noticed by now, nobody except you assumes optimal deployment. This is a tier list, not a "use these guys, don't use these guys" thread.

The GMs don't have any Paragons available to them until 3-11. Unless you transfer Paragon from the DB (which has its own claim to it; namely, Jill wants it because flying + good offense + good spd cap pretty much seals the deal for any effort needed to make her useful in the long term), there is no way to bolster his EXP gain. Now, I suppose you could make a case for giving him Blossom (since BEXP'd levels early on are relatively cheap and Rolf doesn't gain much CEXP from chipping anyway), but basically every other unit who has limited levels to gain before part 4 would like it. Especially for those super short maps like 3-5. Heck, you could probably even make a case for 3-4 being "short," as much of the enemy density is inaccessible if you're progressing with any sense of urgency.

Right, my mistake. I can't imagine when he's going to start doubling otherwise, so yay.

[Colonel M]

Due to the infantry units, it will also be difficult to get Janaff AND Ulki to S Strike. Sucks that I could use Janaff in 4-1 but there's 4-3...

Anyway, after failing to 5 Turn 3-11, if I have Nullify (and I hope to God I do) I might just BEXP Janaff to 30 and give him Nullify + Celerity to (hopefully) take on the 3-11 boss easier. He does 36 damage in one round, which should be enough to have Haar finish him off... I don't know this 5 Turn shit is rather difficult.

And, frankly, if you were willing to drop one of Nephenee or Mia (though I recommend dropping Nephenee) you can manage BEXP enough to get him to a respectable level then just crown him. After all, despite Mia and Nephenee being underleveled they still carry the Spd stat and their Str isn't as lacking. In 3-11 I can boost Mephenee 4 levels with Paragon as well. Early crowning Mia is no big deal either after she caps Str.

[dondon151]

Whether or not it's justified, it's common sense. I don't see how we can disregard common sense in a tier list. Besides, as you may have noticed by now, nobody except you assumes optimal deployment. This is a tier list, not a "use these guys, don't use these guys" thread.

Hmm? I'm not the only person. Numerous people have doubted Rolf (T)'s worth or have been implying that he probably shouldn't be used because he is "not worth using" or "not contributing much," they're just simply not explicitly stating it like I am.

[Interceptor]

The difference is, they are possibly not fully aware of the implications of "optimal deployment only", whereas you've had the arguments already and are smart enough to see where that train goes.

[Naglfar]

Hmm? I'm not the only person. Numerous people have doubted Rolf (T)'s worth or have been implying that he probably shouldn't be used because he is "not worth using" or "not contributing much," they're just simply not explicitly stating it like I am.

Why do you choose to reply to the irrelevant half of that paragraph?

[eclipse]

Since when did Titania need BEXP? I tend to not pay attention to her, and she manages to do just fine, EXP-wise.

[Colonel M]

Since when did Titania need BEXP? I tend to not pay attention to her, and she manages to do just fine, EXP-wise.

If you're cranking for the lowest turn count, Titania will need BEXP.

[dondon151]

Why do you choose to reply to the irrelevant half of that paragraph?

Answer: I was busy catching a connecting flight.

I don't believe that your interpretation of "common sense" is actually common sense. It's an interpretation that caters to your playstyle - to me, using suboptimal characters except in extreme cases of RNG screwage defies all common sense.

[Naglfar]

Answer: I was busy catching a connecting flight.

I don't believe that your interpretation of "common sense" is actually common sense. It's an interpretation that caters to your playstyle - to me, using suboptimal characters except in extreme cases of RNG screwage defies all common sense.

I'm not the one who's caught up in his own playstyle here. What I'm saying is, any sensible person who went to transfer Rolf in the first place did so with intentions of actively using him. It has absolutely nothing to do with how good he actually is, or what the player's playstyle is. Unless said playstyle involves doing completely pointless things, and I can't imagine the tier player plays like that.

For example, you. You'd never use Rolf, right? Knowing this, would you transfer him? Common sense says you wouldn't; you'd put the 39 levels into some other unit instead.

Stop being a Stop Having Fun Guy, please. Right now it seems you're hellbent on derailing any serious discussion of units below High tier. Your rebuttals to my arguments on this subject so far consist entirely of pointing out my mistakes and "rofl sux instabottom".

With regards to Rolf(T)'s position, because I haven't gotten around to this yet, I'd like to see him below Marcia at least. She's easier to use, uses an infinitely superior weapon type, flies, is useful for as many chapters as he is if not more, has a chapter of Paragon entitlement, has Fire affinity as opposed to Wind, and so on. I'm not sure what Rolf(T) does that outclasses Marcia.

[Anouleth]

Answer: I was busy catching a connecting flight.

I don't believe that your interpretation of "common sense" is actually common sense. It's an interpretation that caters to your playstyle - to me, using suboptimal characters except in extreme cases of RNG screwage defies all common sense.

Assumptions made by the rules of the tier list are often going to defy what you view as logical results (in this case, a logical result of applying opportunity costs to deployment slots and EXP). After all, there's no logic behind denying Lucia credit for Arriving, nor do we, for example, assume that all characters are recruited for free on the FE6 tier list because it's a logical conclusion. We use these assumptions since generally they make for more interesting discussion, at least, more interesting that instantly sending Lucia up to Top Tier and instantly sending Sue to Bottom Tier.

Earlier, you said that you didn't think tier lists should be democratic, and I think that's only partially true. Obviously, issues of character positioning should not be influenced by fanboys who don't back up their arguments. However, when it comes to the rules and assumptions inherent in the tier list, it's important to have some consensus, because generally people refuse to argue under vague or contradictory or just plain boring rules.