OMG it's a tier list

[eclipse]

Except now you enter a slippery slope. For example, what now stops me from taking 5 turns instead of 3? 6? Etc, etc. I'm just saying: careful how you dig this hole. In most instances, however, taking the extra turn doesn't add much of a benefit turn-count wise.

I think everyone can agree that if you're losing BEXP due to turn count, you're doing it wrong.

(you'll have to forgive me for using an example from a different FE, but it's the one I'm most familiar with, in terms of getting a low turn count)

The absolute lowest turn count for SD Chapter 22 is 7 turns, sans Warp. By getting this turn count, you'll miss the reinforcements that spawn on Turn 8. These particular reinforcements give a good amount of experience, and aren't particularly hard to kill, unless you're on H5. Not sure if a similar situation exists in RD.

[Colonel M]

The general problem is that BEXP Turn counts are very "generous" to the player. Random example: 3-2 has a 15 Turn count limit when it can be done in a 1/5 of the amount of turns.

The absolute lowest turn count for SD Chapter 22 is 7 turns, sans Warp. By getting this turn count, you'll miss the reinforcements that spawn on Turn 8. These particular reinforcements give a good amount of experience, and aren't particularly hard to kill, unless you're on H5. Not sure if a similar situation exists in RD.

It's a fair bench mark to make, I suppose, since it defines the penalty by taking too long. The problems involve the following:

a) Taking those reinforcements now cost a turn in the process, in which case you (most definitely) will not make up for in the future.

B) Can you really define it "efficient" to even go over the 7 turn limit?

I'm not going to defend smash, but many people also criticized his play log because it was terribly inefficient (and rightfully so; 12 turns in 3-2 is fucking ridiculous). Then Interceptor did his play log, and a lot of the ideals were carried into the tier list despite him not being very far off from the absolute lowest turn counts (only a couple chapters were actually over, which of course I'm not going to go overcritical on him about). Then I do mine and... it becomes a hostility pandemic because part of it involves...? I know I was partially harsh, but I am all for the optimal distribution of resources. That's why I challenged Gatrie getting Celerity: it's used in better areas and thus saves more turns. I can accept that units that are lower ended will usually take more turns to build up (Nephenee is a good example of this), and rightfully so - she wasn't a terrible unit and I guess I'm a fan of Sentinels. I was recommended to even drop both Nolan and Jill, or even just Nolan, yet I continued on with both, etc. I'm not going to argue "optimal deployment" entirely since I feel it is a completely different subject and that can definitely pend on the person's favorites / etc.

I think the one part where I'm being, perhaps, a little too critical is because I remember reading a quote from RFoF one day when we addressed 2-E being crushed down in about 3-5 turns.

Well, why wouldn't you? More EXP? If you're not 3 turning 2-E, why do you need to use Physic when Elincia has Mend, 9 move, and flying?

Experience and resources. 2-E has a good amount of items to collect. Not to mention how much Nephenee would drop without the 2-E experience.

As for Elincia and healing: 9 move, but your team is split to the two sides of the map. If someone needs healing on both sides, or even on just one, even Leanne can't always get her up close to both with enough extra move to also keep her safe from enemies.

Though this is the bigger nail that I was worried about:

Okay, someone remind me when this list has ever assumed a 2-3 turn clear of 2-E. You can't, because it never has. We only mention it as a partial advantage for people like Haar who can actually pull it off, not whenever it's convenient for a specific character or argument.

Where the problems now arise is with two characters: Haar and Nephenee. Haar has the advantage that he can end the chapter at whim, but what does that leave Nephenee? What approximate level do we assume in this scenario? It puts a lot of iffy arguments on an iffier slope. There are other instances where I point out; 4-5 is another decent example. Do we, say, take 5 Turns on the chapter or do we go with the standard 2 turn? The difference of 3 turns is rather substantial, at times, when it comes to character build-up. It also can affect many other resources, such as the Physic Staff as RFoF noted.

Of course, a lot of the ire comes from the dimwits I had to deal with GFAQs recently... so take some of the negativity with a grain of salt here.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Tyranel M

[eclipse]

First off, no problem!

It's a fair bench mark to make, I suppose, since it defines the penalty by taking too long. The problems involve the following:

a) Taking those reinforcements now cost a turn in the process, in which case you (most definitely) will not make up for in the future.

B) Can you really define it "efficient" to even go over the 7 turn limit?

I guess mentioning Chapter 22 of SD was a bad idea, because it's a very weird chapter (and I didn't realize the argument would go in this direction). However, the extra turn for efficiency is best highlighted on this chapter.

Chapters 22 and 23 are linked by a stupid village in Chapter 22 which contains something whose importance I'll explain later. This detour costs one turn in Chapter 22 (since Marth is the only one capable of visiting villages) - which means those reinforcements will show up anyway. Yay, free levels for two units.

Chapter 23 features Gharnef, and the only thing that will do his ugly butt in is Starlight - that little item in the stupid village a chapter earlier. Killing Gharnef is important, because keeping him alive makes the chapter that much more of a pain (it's impossible to do a non-Warp efficient run without the reinforcements showing up), and he drops Falchion - something that allows the player to skip a chapter (Chapter 24x). Assuming no-Warp efficiency (i.e. draft tourney), the other condition that will skip Chapter 24x is dead (because recruiting her is a LOT of extra turns). Thus, your options are to take the extra turn on Chapter 22 to pick up Starlight, and kill Gharnef while doing the rest of the tower efficiently (there's a 33% chance of pulling the minimum turn count and killing Gharnef), or get shunted off to Chapter 24x.

(luckily, the draft tourneys don't count the gaiden chapters, assuming they're done in reasonable time)

I think this is one of the really rare situations where taking an extra turn on a chapter results in a more efficient run. I don't think RD has this type of situation (feel free to correct me).

[Interceptor]

What's with all this "Get the minimum turn count or else" crap? This list has never assumed that in it's near-two years lifetime. Minimum turn count is not the same as efficiency.

I've gotten tired of explaining this to people in the thread, only to have them disregard it, so I'm planning on just ignoring them until they get tired of talking amongst themselves.

[Life]

Since I've started playing this game (on my computer), I might start commenting on the list soon. That is if Dolphin doesn't freeze up after 3-P like it apparently does.

[BEST TRYNDAMERE PLAYER]

Since I've started playing this game (on my computer), I might start commenting on the list soon. That is if Dolphin doesn't freeze up after 3-P like it apparently does.

It doesn't.

[Junkhead]

I forgot Oscar. He's pretty forgettable <_<

H8ers gonna h8.

[grandjackal]

ANYWHO, we now have 2 crowns (3-3, 3-7) since we have learned that A. Haar doesn't need it and is fine with waiting, and B. Titania doesn't need it either, because she is so high base level she could promote naturally and be just fine. So, we have Gatrie and Oscar. Since we have 2 crowns thanks to two less competitors, how do they stand? Oscar's doubling problems essentially vanish up until Endgame, and Gatrie's free to be his badass self later on.

While this might not change much of Gatrie's position (outside of Celerity issues), what about Oscar? He's basically Nephenee with a better start and more utility due to horse with Earth affinity, though missing the whole Endgame status.

...Now looking at upper mid, I notice Nephenee's above the likes of Laura and Jill. Why? I wouldn't put Oscar above Jill, and I certainly wouldn't put Neph over her. Perhaps it could be said that Neph should be dropping in the near future? I suppose I don't exactly have numbers to be concrete, but he would become badass around the same time Gatrie would (5 levels, and I would venture Oscar gets those levels sooner due to his uses early on, though despite not ORKOing like Gatrie he still could just kill on the player phase and move forward with Canto).

Though, I would have to wonder if a Pocket Soren support would be arguable for Oscar? Dark gives basically everything he needs, and brings Soren's powerful magic up to the frontlines on top of it. Could also be argued that through that, Soren could nab the future crown (he and Gatrie would have the same speed after all, and though despite not being legendary in combat he could still in all likelyhood ORKO while having staffs as a nice luxury along with Flare and an Earth support to help him survive.

Bleh, I dunno. Just want to have this topic go to a subject not being the 5th time we've discussed "what's the tier list do?".

...And Aran is still in upper mid. I swear to god we've all basically agreed on several occasions that Aran does not deserve to be that high when he's got less utilic use than Eddie.

[Colonel M]

The reason why Pocket Mist works out is for two reasons. First, it allows Titania to OHKO General with a Hammer assuming that she is promoted by 3-8. Secondly, it's pretty much because... Mist has nothing better to do. Her taking up a spot means nothing of real value was lost since she can act as a pinch healer on Turn 1 or something, but of course the general problem with Pocket Mist is that Mist also loses out promoting in 4-4. Not that I really care about it since she's probably better unpromoted and the difference between her on a horse and her not on a horse in that chapter is that she can re-move after healing. Pocket Soren fields a crappy offensive unit that's probably reliant on Wrath in order to function around, and sealing him is probably the last thing a player would really consider in a book. Then you have to take Savior from one of Titania or Haar. Giving Oscar "Pocket Soren" and Savior doesn't give as great of returns like Titania's "Pocket Mist" and giving it to her in 3-8 and 3-9, possibly for the rest of the game.

Oscar's problem is more or less he's nothing like Titania. Axes really dominate because they have Hammer on their side of the field as well as high Mt weapons with fair amount of accuracy. Horseslayer is cool I admit; Oscar w/Energy Drop can actually OHKO Paladins. I guess I'm also really biased against Oscar so I probably don't have much to really add on it. Oscar's kind of like Rolf and possibly Mist: outclassed, so they don't look as cool school as their "usually" better counterparts.

A. Haar doesn't need it and is fine with waiting

He's not really "fine with waiting". I'm assuming if Gatrie takes the 3-3 Crown, Haar is likely next in line with the 3-7 one. Unless you want your Spd-capped Haar to miss doubling these enemies on 3-8:

- 3 Warriors

- 6 Halberdiers

- 2 Snipers

- 2 Druids

Which is about a third of the map. It also misses the Warriors on the top part of 3-10 map.

-----

Whatever. Let's just argue it. Jill > Nephenee.

Actually... I have to wait on this one. There's another conflicting issue on the line: Nephenee getting the BEXP vs. Haar getting it.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Narga_Rocks]

Whatever. Let's just argue it. Jill > Nephenee.

Actually... I have to wait on this one. There's another conflicting issue on the line: Nephenee getting the BEXP vs. Haar getting it.

I don't buy Haar getting it in 2-E. The point of levels for him is mainly spd. You aren't getting that with a bexp level. The most you would do is get him to 99 at the start of 2-E. Considering he is pretty unlikely to level in 2-P, it probably doesn't cost all that much. The rest goes to Neph. There is no reason to give Haar full bexp levels since he won't actually get any spd and you are just making his cexp gains smaller. This is bad since it means it takes even longer to get him to his speed cap. I don't see how a point extra str, skl, def or whatever he may get can be more important than making Neph better + getting Haar promoted with 26 AS sooner. There is the potential issue of the GMs in 3-11 or even Marcia or someone in 3-9, but then you have to compare the benefit to Neph from 3-2 up to 3-10 compared to what the other unit gets. That is a lot of chapters to counter.

Now, whatever affect that may have on Jill v Neph I don't really know at the moment. Just saying, there is little point in dumping 2 levels on Haar.

[Colonel M]

The general problem is that Haar also has a low growth in Spd (30%). Looking at the averages, that means that Haar wouldn't be "guaranteed" (which is shaky to assume) +2 Spd until 7 levels, which is a lot. The deal with the BEXP dump on Haar (it's actually more like 3-4 levels) is that you cap Skl and Def sooner, which means that your next BEXP level ups will be Str, Luck, then HP and Spd are tied. I guess that's also the other problem: Spd is tied for the 3rd highest growth.

I'm not completely buying the BEXP dump on Nephenee either since, I guess, I saw merit to dumping it on Haar too. I guess theoretically you could also split it between the two to where Haar gets +2 Levels (eh Def has a high chance to cap in levels anyway) then Nephenee gets the rest of it, since she can be Level 3 by 2-E, which means 21 Spd, so at best you need +3 Spd level ups. Considering Spd is her highest growth, I doubt she really needs more than 3-4 levels of BEXP in general, or at least 2 and a stop at .99 (or 3 as well). I guess another problem I see with it is that it also works against her in terms of Str since it's her lower end growth in general.

[dondon151]

...And Aran is still in upper mid. I swear to god we've all basically agreed on several occasions that Aran does not deserve to be that high when he's got less utilic use than Eddie.

Nothing has changed for at least a month.

[Colonel M]

Meh, w/e. I almost considered making an updated one, but I'll wait a couple days for Narga to update it.

Also, can someone tell me what level Marcia likely hits in 3-11? In particular Transfer Marcia? I don't think that Marcia (T) and Tanith (T) should have that huge of a gap. For reference, Marcia (T) is a tier up on Tanith (T) and normal Marcia is even above Tanith (T). Without including transfers, here are Tanith's base stats:

35 HP | 20 Str | 10 Mag | 21 Skl | 23 Spd | 22 Luck | 19 Def | 20 Res

Marcia never reaches Tanith's X base stat until...

HP by one level, with a superior growth, so technically Marcia wins here.

Str by --/18, it's --/12 with the Str transfer

Spd by --/10, but granted she has the higher growth. Then again Tanith can just use Speedwing and double at the word "go".

Def by --/14

Res by --/19

I admit that Marcia contributes a lot combat wise, but the problem is if Marcia can't even clear around Level 12 by 3-11 I can forsee a lot of problems. And... no one has really used Marcia past 3-9 yet except in 3-11 to do absolutely nothing with combat...

[Anouleth]

It took me about 10 turns in 3-9 to get Marcia to a respectable level, and even then she still failed in 3-11 and was never quite as good as Tanith. 30 strength growth sucks. I even gave her an Energy Drop and she still wasn't doing as well is Tanith (who took a Secret Book and some BEXP).

I can try out Marcia (T) in my current playthrough, if you want. I'm also going to be testing out a lot of other transfer units that have never been properly looked at, like Rolf, Jill, Boyd, Mia, and Tanith. I think there is far too little information on how transfer units can perform.

[Colonel M]

Yeah, definitely a good idea. I almost kind of wish I tried Boyd in my playthrough, if only to see if I could get him to a respectable combat level.

[Zkirsche]

...And Aran is still in upper mid. I swear to god we've all basically agreed on several occasions that Aran does not deserve to be that high when he's got less utilic use than Eddie.

I don't think one thing from the agenda has been proparly agreed upon, which is really annoying. Myabe Rofl (T) staying where he is. But thats it. And now we have:

-Where on earth does Gatrie go?

-Neph vs rest of upper mid.

-Tanith (T) vs Marcia.

It took me about 10 turns in 3-9 to get Marcia to a respectable level

Is this with paragon + brave lance?

[Colonel M]

I don't think Gatrie is going to sink to Upper Mid. I think we agreed under the hawks, and he's probably still > Shinon. There's also Haar > Ike, Rhys > Mist, and Titania > Mia that has been argued and, aside from the Rhys vs Mist side it's mostly been agreed on.

As for Marcia... Why... Are we keeping the Brave Lance just for 1 chapter?

[Anouleth]

I was using Paragon (obviously) buut not Brave Lance.She got a kill pretty much every turn even w/o it.

And I don't recall exactly what level I got her to. Maybe level 11 or 12? Either way, I spent way too much time coddling her for the payoff (a weaker Tanith). In fairness, I was way too generous to Tanith too with BEXP, and she was pretty speed blessed (capped speed in tier 2 without a Wing).

Edited September 7, 2010 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Colonel M]

Actually, I probably don't need to know levels for Nephenee.

Jill saves turns in the following ways:

- 1-6 being your only flier in general that can ferry Tauroneo around, if warranted. She can ferry Taur across the island and end the chapter at whim starting Turn 2 on, whenever you find it necessary of course.

- 1-7 she can pick up Micaiah and Canto off to help Volug position himself better when taking Micaiah away from Jill. Jill can then do what she wants; whether it's going back to where Nolan and Zihark are hanging out or tagging along with Volug and co.

- 1-E she can carry Micaiah or Rafiel up the ledges, not to mention she can still do hit-and-run tactics.

- 3-6 she helps with clearing out the Laguz thanks to Canto and Brave Axe capabilities. Flying is a pretty big boon to have here.

- 3-12 she likely has a better chance of being able to double enemies than Nolan does, so she can at least ORKO any enemy with a Brave Axe at whim.

- 3-13 she can promote, probably have enough durability to take on two Tigers and two Cats, and kill every single last one of them with Beastfoe. She is excellent with the Damon Card (fuck the spelling) since she can Canto away from Ike so she doesn't get shitstomped by Ragnell. She can equip Parity to use the Brave Axe easier against him.

In Part 4 Jill can almost go any route. 27 Spd is safest in Micaiah's route; only missing the higher-end Warriors and such, though she pretty much is guaranteed a level in 3-13 and can probably net 28 AS after the second level up. That's pretty sufficient for her. She's also an awesome Endgame candidate given her Spd cap and being able to Canto after an attack; not to mention Axes being impressive in general.

Nephenee saves some turns throughout the game, but it also depends on how much self-improvement that we go under in 2-E, where the BEXP lands from Part 2's in general, etc. Nephenee not really being required to help save turns kind of hurts her in general (remember that for this part I'm speaking outside of Part 2, aka Part 3). I guess being Mia-lite is cool, but it can only do so much for you. I'm willing to hear what people should defend for Nephenee, but I'd even go further than Nephenee and even question Jill below Oscar on some levels.

[Narga_Rocks]

Meh, w/e. I almost considered making an updated one, but I'll wait a couple days for Narga to update it.

It could be a while. Maybe Thursday, but if not then nothing will happen until at least Sunday.

Besides, not much has actually been agreed on. Go back a few pages to find my post where I listed some of my issues with all the proposed changes. Tell me if any of the changes have actually been agreed upon. Like, a couple of them have, but not all that many. And some of the agreed changes involve characters that many want to move further than just one spot and I stated an unwillingness to do anything about those until that part gets resolved.

As for making an updated one (by that I assume you mean a new thread), I'd recommend against that (it'll get deleted). But if you want to make an "optimal deployment only" style tier list, have at it. Basic rules involve characters only ever getting credit for stuff they do in chapters where you can't simply replace them with a better option. Even if a character is pretty decent in non-free chapters, if it isn't "optimal" then it gets no credit out of it. And if it has no free chapters and is never optimal (Renning, Lyre, Kyza, maybe a couple of others) then it is in a nice tie for bottom of the tier list. And Oliver is a millimetre above the bottom of the list. Seriously, dude probably gets recruited on the final turn just before Ike or Mia or Nailah KOs the final enemy. Go Oliver. Maybe you heal Ike to prevent a COD when he kills the last enemy. You rock, dude.

[Colonel M]

Alright.

-Dropping Rofl (T)?

Not until someone can come up with a reasonable estimate of his leveling potential. He got where he is because he basically emulates Shinon except in like 4 chapters of their entire existence. That is, under the previous assumption of his leveling speed. Shinon being better is irrelevant. He's still a tier up. Now, if someone can figure out just how quickly Rolf(T) is capable of gaining levels and if that shows that he's incapable of performing at the level that got him into upper mid, then we can lower him. Nobody has offered anything since I made that statement weeks ago.

Anouleth will be addressing this one, since he made a transfer file with Rolf. It'll be a while before he hits Part 3 though, so this one will take some time to iron out.

This is pretty much guaranteed to end up Rhys > Soren(T). What I'm waiting for is a reasonable suggestion of Soren's new position. I am not going to move him one space (under Rhys) just to have to move him more spaces in a couple of days if someone else wants to push him further.

Well, at the moment he's under Tauroneo and Brom, and I don't know if he should be under Brom. Meanwhile, he's above the laguz royals, Maurim, and Skrimir. What it really comes down to is if the player is willing to give Soren a crown in general. The issue becomes that his Spd growth is still pathetic on top of his Tier 2 Spd cap being a paltry 23. I guess you could bypass it with a little Wrath use, but then Soren needs to get knocked into near-death situations. A 35% Spd growth doesn't help either. 25 Spd does okay with doubling most of Part 3's enemies though, but with being locked into Ike's route he needs at least 27 Spd by 4-1 to double all of the Generals. Soren w/no support has 38 Atk after promotion with ArcFire... and I'll make a stray assumption he's maybe Level 3. That shoots him up to potentially 40 Atk, which barely 2HKOes the Halberdiers, which is solid enough. An Attack support should net him 2HKOing the Generals too, and since he can potentially double them easier he's great at ORKOing these things. The problem is, of course, that he needs said 27 AS to double all of them, granted only one is at 23.

I'd say that Soren, if he's being used as a serious unit, is probably saving you more turns than the royals. Maurim is iffy, since in Part 1 he saves quite a bit on his own, but it's probably a lot less than Soren does overall.

tl;dr version: unless you're speaking strictly off maximum efficiency clause, Soren can probably stay where he is provided that he can obtain a Master Crown.

-Aran to Low

The reasoning in here is pretty far off from the actual reason that many people claimed. It's because Edward, when not trained, saves you more turns over the course of the game than possibly Aran ever does. Training Aran involves a lot of issues, and I can't even give a safe level as to when Aran can be by Endgame. smash_fanatic had him by Level 17?, but his turn counts were also atrocious in the process, though my bigger issue is that he doesn't save much in Part 3 unless he hogs resources from the potential Part 4 candidates (Jill, Volug, Nolan, Zihark, Edward?). Aran needs to be almost 20/8 just to double fucking Armor Knights in 3-12. Think about that carefully. He's even at risk being doubled by the 21 AS Warriors if he can't reach that level. He's not a good Beastfoe recipient in 3-6 since he whiffs KOes too easily on Tigers. He might be a good candidate on 3-13 just because he's able to take a lot of abuse... but that's about it. Oh yeah, and because he can't double Generals he pretty much 3HKOes them, so he relies on crits in order to ORKO them on the spot.

If only GJ started Part 3 to show us the greatness that is Edward Cullen. It probably would've helped out a lot more.

- Mist and Rhys' placement

Yeah, they'll probably end up next to each other. dondon will never accept Mist > Rhys, and many people think Mist > Rhys despite the one or two times his extra physic range comes in handy on a 0% growths playthrough.

That's a pretty bold statement to make when I can even attest that Rhys's Physic range is a pretty significant advantage over Mist, and I had growths in my play through.

Mists's only advantage after a couple of chapters pretty much becomes being shoved onto Titania's Horse to help Titania OHKO Generals then maybe using Rescue Staff in 4-4 to help horses up the ledge. As for the Pocket Mist ordeal, technically Rhys can duplicate it and sacrifice 1 Def point for +8 Hit, which I guess isn't much of a deal breaker but it can help with playing conservative on Steel Axe forges I guess. Not that I'd want to shove Rhys into that position since I found his Physic range useful in:

- 3-3 since he can heal Titania while she's climbing up the chapter to get the Tent and burn the supplies in the back.

- 3-4 since he can reach Haar

- 3-8 as he doesn't need to be very far from the enemies and allies to heal them. 12 spaces, IIRC, can reach pretty far over the cliffs too, though granted even Mist can probably heal Haar that far. Maybe.

- 3-10 it allows Rhys to stay away from the enemies in general while healing the south side of the map.

- 3-11 he can reach over to Leanne without leaving very far from his starting position.

Mist's slow leveling progress bars her from really getting much Mag in the first place, and to be fair on Rhys he technically can survive an attack if he counter-kills the enemy in the process. Not that I really did that often anyway, but it is merely more of a minor note. Add onto how Rhys's combat helps in the earlier part of the chapters, and I think Rhys > Mist has a valid case. It doesn't matter if the majority agrees or disagrees; it's about the list itself being accurate.

-Heather up?

Why? I love Heather. She's cool on EM since she never dies (avoid combat while at worst bio). If you abuse level ups and give her a drop in order to steal the 3-2 bolting, she even becomes a decent combat unit. But on HM she's not much better than Mist as far as combat goes and along with being 2HKOd she doesn't even get enemies to low enough hit rates to be an avotank. Her contributions mainly fall to stealing and picking up items quicker than the other guy. There's not much room above her in mid and I doubt she's upper mid-worthy.

This was... random...

That boils down to Thieving vs. Healing, which is generally drawing a worse argument. Heather doesn't steal much either. 2-2's Secret Book, 2-E's Dracoshield, maybe 3-2's Statue Frag, 3-5's Energy Drop, and 3-7's Master Crown. You don't really need her to find Silence, though I suppose she can speed up the process at the cost of being a liability combat and durability-wise. I'd say she's fine where she us. She's under the healers, which generally save more turns. I'd probably argue the other way for her, but then again outside of 1-6 Taur doesn't help that much and his Part 4 can be rough when at Tier 2.

-Kyza to Bottom

*Shrugs*. The biggest issue is that Tiger laguz aren't great at doubling. Kyza needs a Wing in order to double, and then if you apply optimal resources chances are he won't get one. He also has 30 Atk, and remember how much people were bitching about Mia's Atk back when it was crappy in 3-P and 3-1? Yeah, Kyza probably needs a Drop to help him too. I'd probably still use Mordecai anyway since all he needs is to be thrown into Resolve and such, but I guess that also is irrelevant to Kyza in general. I probably wouldn't pit him much higher. He's below Bastian and Snacky. Meh, I don't think he's exactly Bottom Tier material, but certainly not much more going for him.

- Reyson out of top tier

I disagree on this, though technically Rafiel and Leanne save quite a few turns as well, which I think is the reason why there's the valid complaint. Rafiel saves quite a bit in 1-E and has 4-4 ffs where it needs a lot of help. Leanne has her Part 2 chapters plus 3-11 where she's required for a low turn count as well. Meh, not buying Reyson out of Top. Over Haar and Ike though? Not buying it.

- Haar over Ike

Maybe. I still think dondon is biased against Ike and could probably do more with him in his playthrough without costing turns. dondon tends to come up with one solution and then hold to it and refuse to accept that there may be alternatives that don't give the same result for performances of characters despite keeping the same turncounts. And when players that aren't as good as him try to use a different team, he focuses on their turn count and says "oh look, I'm right" rather than attempt to see if maybe the player just wasn't good enough to pull off lower turncounts with those units (see GJ trying to use Edward a little more in part 1).

"Maybe?" Come on, if there isn't enough concrete evidence on Haar > Ike, I don't know what more to really say here.

Yes, technically Ike saves a lot of turns on his own. There's absolutely no denial in it. However, take a rather (weird) approach and look at the instance of "Haar not existing" vs. "Haar existing". The impact with Haar is far greater than Ike in general, since Haar allows the absolute fastest clears throughout Part 3. He's pretty much the "Easy Button". His combat is pretty much above and beyond expectation, and 25 AS is sufficient for doubling most enemies, which after a Wing and a Crown only needs 1 Spd proc. That's it. If he desperately needs help Part 4 with a Wing, hell give it to him. What are you waiting for with it anyway? Ike being Spd-screwed is pretty low chances (look at Int's and my Ike. There's no real way you can argue a Spd-screwed Ike with good BEXP decisions), which means it leaves awkward characters (usually those that aren't going to Endgame anyway) to taking the Wing. If Haar needs two, just give them to him. Saving turns in 4-P and 4-3 is a good enough impact. Hell he doesn't really need Spd in 4-P since he can simply whip out Horseslayer.

I don't even know if there were people that seriously disagreed on this.

- Titania over Mia (or top tier).

This may end up happening, though not the "top" part.

Not sure... how to really evaluate this one. I'm probably with you on this one that Mia and Titania tier difference is still iffy to see. Then again, others have agreed with Titania > Mia as is.

- Sothe and Volug.

And has anyone agreed what to go and do? Some seem to agree they should be in the same tier. Nobody has come to conclusions about Sothe > Volug or Volug > Sothe or whether they should be in high or top. Thanks to forgeable knives I'd be tempted to go with Sothe > Volug, however a Volug that can gain stats could be quite useful with SS weapon rank in part 4. Unfortunately Interceptor experimented with Nolan and JIll in his playthrough rather than Volug and one of those two. This was good for Nolan and Jill but not so good for Volug. And dondon doesn't have growths so that makes part 4 really really strange compared to normal so even if Volug has SS strike it won't show much.

At the moment, I think Volug needs a fairly strong part 4 to have any chance of > Sothe, given what Sothe does for part 1 with his knife forges, and even what he does for Jill in 3-6 with the same. 3 move and good 1-2 range has helped Interceptor with JIll-training in 3-6.

Yeah, with you on this one. My biggest issue with Volug is that he's awkward in general after Part 3. Meh, I'd say Sothe > Volug until someone gives Volug a fair trial in Part 4. As for Top and High Tier... you know I honestly want to put them in Top Tier since they're pretty good for saving turns without needing major help. I guess I don't see, for example, Sothe and Nolan in the same tier since Nolan's Part 4 win isn't as great as Sothe's Part 1 win.

- Tanith down to lower mid with Sigrun

No way. At least, Tanith(T) is stuck in mid. She could perhaps move either up or down, but no way is she lower mid. As for the normal versions, this list still needs to decide on whether it is looking at optimal deployment-only or if it is looking at how units can affect turncounts if they have the option to be used a bit more. If they are solely carriers and chippers and don't go to 4-E, Sigrun > Tanith could be reasonable because Sigrun only needs two levels to promote and Tanith needs 5 so Sigrun gets 26 speed and stun while Tanith probably never gets stun or moves beyond 24 or 25 speed. This is clearly a win for Sigrun. With just a little more work, however, Tanith > Sigrun becomes obvious. And where would you even place them within lower mid? Is Tanith really < Rolf? I think some have suggested Sigrun and Tanith to end up > Rolf only.

I think the better solution is moving Sigrun up instead of Tanith down. Sigrun is under Rolf and even Edward. That alone already looks awkward.

- Kieran vs Tormod

I still don't remember quite why Kieran and Geoffrey aren't in the same tier. Kieran is terrible in 3-11 and beyond but the justification for Kieran better than Geoffrey is always something like "well Kieran has more chapters for training" except he'll be lucky to double sages and he's never very good. Also, Ed > Geoffrey should really happen because Geoffrey's 2-3 is comparable to Ed's 1-P only Ed also has 1-1, 1-2, 1-4 to compete against Geoffrey's 3-9. And obviously if you include the possibility of actually training Ed (and playing at the level of Int/dondon) then perhaps Ed can do more for longer without hurting turncounts.

...Where's Tormod in this comparison? @_@;

I dunno about Tormod really being over Geoff and Kieran. 1-7 he helps save turns, then of course he's great in 1-8. In 1-E... eh... he's pretty much taking out the reinforcements and... yeah.

- Tanith(T)? (> Marcia, anyone?)

25 speed and 20 strength and 23 skill when Tanith appears. I've got Marcia (T) to level 12 or something, but I spent more time in 2-E than dondon. Marcia(T) can probably still win, but Marcia(N) at around level 10 only has 17.5 str and 23.25 spd. With a difference in spd growth of 25% it still takes 7 levels each for Marcia to tie-game. Except Tanith will have promo bonuses and Marcia won't without a crown. Tanith(T) > Marcia is certainly reasonable, and Tanith(T) may even be a decent recipient of the 3-9 wing (though a spd-screwed Nolan probably takes priority). 1 level probably caps her skill, then she has skill and spd capped and str and def become her top 2 growths. hp and luck are in a tier for 3rd. All in all, that's decent numbers. If you can get her a level and a bit in 3-11 then bump her up to level 19 and crown her then she has:

25 str, 29 spd, 26 skill, 24 def, plus whatever you got in her level-up that wasn't skill (75%, so it probably happened for her). A silver forge makes 43 mt in 4-3, except she also has a 55% str growth for any levels in 4-P.

Anyway, if you are willing to drop a speedwing and a crown (in 3-E) on her, she's probably better than Neph at this point. You could even possibly go without the crown if you can get her from level 19 to 20 in 3-E and then bexp up to 20/1 to start 4-P. Or something like that. It's a little expensive in terms of bexp, but if dondon is seriously contemplating spending 12000 bexp on Ike in 3-E just to make 3-13 more Volug friendly than Jill friendly, I don't see why Tanith isn't a good choice.

I even think Tanith (N) > Marcia has a lot of merit. Tanith's only real costs are the Wing, maybe a Drop just to help size up her offense, then the Crown. That's what I used on Nephenee. Consider that Marcia needs to:

- Take around all of the kills in 2-P. Obviously Marcia will finish off the enemies here, but once Haar arrives I'm not sure if Marcia should really do the killing

- 2-3 is all about the BEXP. Not sure why you'd really spend anything more than 7 turns here just to risk killing more of the Rebels

- 2-E which... has no clear decision

- 3-9 where she can take Paragon and at least finish off enemies

She probably wants Part 2's BEXP dump, which Haar and Nephenee want as well to have better Part 3's to begin with. Marcia's low Str growth and base don't help much, and her supporting speed might as well be as quick as Tanith's since CRK are hopeless shams after 3-9. Not really seeing even Marcia (T) > Tanith (N), but I'm willing to find out how Marcia (T) turns out.

Rest of the post

Trust me, I don't want to make such a tier list, but the low turn count stuff brings a lot of stuff into question; in particular the minor stuff such as Nephenee and Marcia as rough examples. Hell, even Tanith to some extents since she did almost nothing but block combat from Leanne in 3-11. I'm not in "optimal deployment camp" as otherwise I wouldn't have touched Nephenee with a 10 foot Poleaxe. Think about that for a second at least.

[Silith]

After reading the last post I was getting worried Edward might be above Aran in the list but luckely there is still a 2 tier gap between them.

Had me sweating for a moment.

[Anouleth]

If only GJ started Part 3 to show us the greatness that is Edward Cullen. It probably would've helped out a lot more.

I could try using Edward in my playthrough as well. I already have him at level 12 coming out of 1-5.

[Colonel M]

After reading the last post I was getting worried Edward might be above Aran in the list but luckely there is still a 2 tier gap between them.

Had me sweating for a moment.

Actually it's... very possible. I want to see how Anouleth goes through Part 1 though. Nolan's at Level 13 though, which is rather shocking within itself I guess.

[grandjackal]

I never did get to 3-12 (I simply stopped caring because playing through Ike's part is so boring that I just said fuck it). However, I can tell you my results for 3-6, and Anouleth's playthrough will be utilizing Eddie.

However, first I think I have to point a couple things out.

1. I had spent a couple extra turns in chapter 1-6 because I did not utilize the Taur drop. 1-6-1 because I didn't even think of it, and 1-6-2 on purpose because I wanted to see how quick I could get through it without having to drop the T Bomb up on the boss's cliff. So I perhaps had some unecessary combat for 1-6-1, but I was able to do 1-6-2 in 3 turns, or that 3 turns is at least possible. Obviously, none of this is the fault of Eddie, just me being a ditz/doing a test run. At best I would venture that at worst I would have lost a single kill for Eddie had I done more with Taur Bomb.

2. 1-2 I had done a bit slower, because I was under the assumption that Nolan went up the ledge (same thing Anouleth fell for, because that kill is so easy to get with Nolan). In truth, that was actually a waste on Nolan. Did another run to see how well it would go if Eddie went north instead and went for the treasure room while Nolan went east and eventually went up the ledge to the boss's room. Not only did I do it 1 or 2 turns quicker than my first run (which was 8 turns, 1-2 off the supposed average), Eddie was no worse off. Even got Nolan more EXP than he did last run, probably due to getting the boss kill (which might be iffy, but possible).

3. 1-7 in my original run was all the way to the BEXP turn limit because I was busy waiting for prisoners to escape for BEXP that ultimately would not be worth it. I could have ended it much sooner and it would have made no difference, since for those 5 turns the group was just sitting there with their thumbs up their butts.

4. I had not used any BEXP...Fr some stupid reason, until Part 3. This was a stupid idea, because Nolan nor Jill are likely to cap anything before level 20 (if anything), and Eddie ultimately wouldn't have cared. I'll explain why in a bit, but just supplying them non-leveling amounts of BEXP chapter by chapter would have proven more effective. Considering I could have gotten Eddie to stat capped levels naturally, I probably could have poured it all into Jill and Nolan to get them to 20 before a Seal. Could have had all 3 sealed for 1-E had I done this.

Now remember I had Eddie supported with Nolan. That would help for 3-6, since the evasion and extra bit of defense would have helped Nolan need to heal less, giving him more player phases, and thus helping hte kill counter go by faster turn by turn. Now, I had kept Eddie's Wrath on, and given him Resolve (Since Resolve is the most hotly debated skill lately, I can't imagine that decision of mine going over too well) and Cancel. Gave Nolan Beastfoe as per tradition. So, how much danger was Eddie in being in the brawl with Nolan?

...

THEY BARELY WENT AFTER EDDIE!

The laguz would much prefer suiciding into Nolan over attacking Eddie no matter what sort of state he was in. This basically allowed Eddie's support to be of full benefit to Nolan while not being a danger of himself, merely helping with WrathxResolvexCancel with Caladbolg Player Phase to help pick off more enemies (to run down that math, Eddie has around 80 crit before enemy Luck using Caladbolg, around 32% chance of Cancel, along with 102 avoid before Biorythmn and terrain in case you think his player phase would be a bit shaky).

However, you can already see the problem here. This somewhat limits exactly how much EXP Eddie can gain in part 3, and makes his future performance somewhat dubious. Resolve helps Eddie, but I'm not even sure if he needs it to be vastly ignored by the majority of laguz. If he doesn't, then sweet. He loses quite a bit of player phase power with it, but if his future performance is dubious without it then perhaps it's for the best. He'd still be helping out Nolan passively, counter-wrathing when appropriate.

I suppose since Anouleth's gonna be using Eddie, there are a few things he will need to find.

A. Can Eddie catch right back up in levels as to not be a future detriment?

B. Will he need Paragon, of which I am supposing will conflict greatly with the interests of Jill, or Resolve of which would conflict greatly with a ton of other characters in the GM?

C. In 3-6 is there an effective and yet reletively safe way to get Eddie more levels that I just simply missed?

or D. Since he has no need for BEXP early on and doesn't mind being early seal'd, how far can you stretch Eddie's use while maintaining his helpfulness before dumping him in part 4 if he truly cannot last that long?

If the top 3 options aren't an option, I will say that in the least, can last you up to 1-5 where you can decide to dump him or not. If you do use him, he and Nolan can make a good team and will be of benefit to one another through part 3 until eventually Nolan shifts to someone else. If he doesn't need Resolve to be useful, then Eddie can be surprisingly resource minimal.

If Eddie had not existed, it's not like the EXP he had would magically go to Jill and Nolan since that would be more a godmode provoke everywhere at once situation that those two do not have. It would have gone to some other third member, like Zihark or Aran, though I'm sure a bit could have gone to Nolan for 1-4. That being said though, what would these other two require? Zihark's good now, but he can't be a support Wrath battery for Nolan in part 3 without being a danger to himself (that is unless you need Resolve to pull that off). Would Aran be taking BEXP that normally would have gone to Nolan and Jill since Eddie doesn't really need any? Exactly how much BEXP can we split between Nolan and Jill without having excess going to waste? Who would we spend the excess on if it exists? Do we want to bother spending excess in turn for BEXP boosting levels for when our tier 2s start cap ramming? If we're solely dumping BEXP into Jill and Nolan, how quickly do they get to tier 2?

So while my unfinished run might hamper a better reading on Eddie, I would still say I like him better than Zihark in part 3 if only because Eddie's got ways of helping Nolan while being ignored by the enemy so that he is not a danger to himself just by existing on the map, something that perpetually plagues Zihark every time he steps foot into 3-6. However, both part 1 and 3 are a strange place of limbo for both the swordmasters. I think a second opinion would help anyways, so let's just wait to see what Anouleth's got for us.

End tl;dr