OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

Gatrie still hasn't moved below the hawks...

I've been busy? It will get done when it gets done.

We might have to look at Mia vs. Hawks too, though I'd rather do it to shut up smash, but that issue isn't as important as the others brought up.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Soren37]

I agree with you Tyarnel. Too tough to raise, and as IET said, even when you do promote her early, she takes MOV penalties. Rhys is greater than both the Mists.

[Shadow Mir]

I'd like to point out as well that if Mist promotes in 4-1, then that means -2 move (still net +1 move) and no ledge climbing in 4-4. So really, it's more like Mist promotes partway into 4-4 unless you really need her on a horse for 4-1. Which means she gets her horse for 1/2 a chapter and never sees her +3 move unless she's taken to endgame (not sure if that's likely, I'd wager not as Elincia does her job, only better).

Even so, 4-4's a rout, and there are enemies to be cleared out at the bottom floors. Also, Titania, Mist's most likely support, is also locked to having to take the long way around.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Anouleth]

Even so, 4-4's a rout, and there are enemies to be cleared out at the bottom floors. Also, Titania, Mist's most likely support, is also locked to having to take the long way around.

We are not going to deploy Mist just so she can mooch around the bottom floor. We want someone up on the ledge, Restoring anyone that gets hit by sleep. Even promoted, her physic range doesn't extend across the entire map, so she would have difficulty healing too.

[grandjackal]

We are not going to deploy Mist just so she can mooch around the bottom floor. We want someone up on the ledge, Restoring anyone that gets hit by sleep. Even promoted, her physic range doesn't extend across the entire map, so she would have difficulty healing too.

Climb up ledge.

Use Holy Crown.

We got BEXP if we're so desperate.

Now I see Mist no better than Rhys if not worse, but I think we've shown that. Looking at Dondon's levels, it does at least seem possible she can get to promotion level by 4-4. Not that I see what good that would do still.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Amaterasu

[Anouleth]

Climb up ledge.

Use Holy Crown.

We got BEXP if we're so desperate.

The person I was replying to was suggesting that it's fine for Mist to be stuck on the bottom floor. I have no problem with Mist if she can climb up ledges.

Now I see Mist no better than Rhys if not worse, but I think we've shown that. Looking at Dondon's levels, it does at least seem possible she can get to promotion level by 4-4. Not that I see what good that would do still.

Keep in mind that dondon is pouring BEXP into her since he has no reason to give it to combat units since he's doing 0% growths. Generally, a real playthrough wouldn't fritter that much away just for a more mobile healer... that is only more mobile for one chapter.

[-Cynthia-]

Calill also chips in 3-9, which is probably better than any map of Soren's chipping, since the CRKs are worse than the GMs in terms of stats/resources you can put into them etc. Soren has more chapters, but I question if his chip actually gets used after 3-1 with his 6 Mov and crappy durability and all.

Tormod is probably more useful than both of them though.

[Anouleth]

How much chipping exactly can Calill scrape together anyway in 3-9? Because if it's 'she chips on turn 1 and is lagging behind everyone after', I am not impressed.

[Colonel M]

Calill likely climbs up the top ledge of the map, so technically she's "ahead" of the CRKs until ~ Turn 3 when they can possibly meet eye-to-eye.

[Silith]

I'm going to gather all of the current play logs that at least got up to 3-E and show the levels for Mist.

Myself: Mist (3.55)

Interceptor: (7.45)

nflchamp: (6.87) - Outside of 3-E

dondon151: (9.32) - Outside of 3-E

My run doesn't count anymore? Ah I see I didn't have any data at the end of 3-F but I know for certain I haven't used Mist that much afterwards and your poitns still stands.

(She was level 6-7 (With Rhys being much higher))

[Colonel M]

My run doesn't count anymore? Ah I see I didn't have any data at the end of 3-F but I know for certain I haven't used Mist that much afterwards and your poitns still stands.

(She was level 6-7 (With Rhys being much higher))

Ah, sorry. Didn't mean to exclude you.

[Junkhead]

Going through my playthrough, and taking slightly more turns building up Zihark and Volug's support...is an A support by 3-13 considered viable now? :)

Edited September 23, 2010 by Totally not Hika's alt

[Narga_Rocks]

Going through my playthrough, and taking slightly more turns building up Zihark and Volug's support...is an A support by 3-13 considered viable now? :)

I think it was always viable. It was just considered to not help particularly much. At least, not Zihark.

1-6 + 1-7: C

1-8 + 1-F: B

3-6 + 3-12: A

They are a 01, so only need 5 adjacents per support level if you go two chapter bonuses per level. 1-6 and 1-7 should perhaps have some opportunity to build even at dondon-like pace. Not sure. 1-8 probably doesn't have any time, but 1-E might have the time to get 5. 3-6 should be fairly easy to get a few, possibly even all 5 needed to get the A for 3-13.

it just seriously doesn't mean much. It's still only a B for 3-6. And Ike's stars cancel the boost to A in 3-13 and you now lack thickets (making the situation even worse than 3-6, aside from how Z can gain some levels (re: speed) in that time). There's only one resolve, and maybe you should stick it on Volug so it certainly isn't helping Zihark. Even with Resolve, Z is still 2HKOd, so one shot and he gets hit into resolve range and now he's in "one hit = one kill" range. Which is bad when you are facing >20 listed hit. Really bad.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Junkhead]

I think it was always viable. It was just considered to not help particularly much. At least, not Zihark.

1-6 + 1-7: C

1-8 + 1-F: B

3-6 + 3-12: A

They are a 01, so only need 5 adjacents per support level if you go two chapter bonuses per level. 1-6 and 1-7 should perhaps have some opportunity to build even at dondon-like pace. Not sure. 1-8 probably doesn't have any time, but 1-E might have the time to get 5. 3-6 should be fairly easy to get a few, possibly even all 5 needed to get the A for 3-13.

it just seriously doesn't mean much. It's still only a B for 3-6. And Ike's stars cancel the boost to A in 3-13 and you now lack thickets (making the situation even worse than 3-6, aside from how Z can gain some levels (re: speed) in that time). There's only one resolve, and maybe you should stick it on Volug so it certainly isn't helping Zihark. Even with Resolve, Z is still 2HKOd, so one shot and he gets hit into resolve range and now he's in "one hit = one kill" range. Which is bad when you are facing >20 listed hit. Really bad.

I remember a few of few guys saying they were just lucky to hit a B support by Part 3. :/

I consider this support to be very useful, especially to Zihark, who's getting 2HKO'd. And I also kept Adept on Zihark here, to prove that he can be of use. He was excellent with a Max Mt/Crit. forge and a B support with Volug in 3-6 and 3-12. And the A support helps us 3-turn 3-13. Resolve + A support with Zihark helps Volug's dodge inmensely.

[Narga_Rocks]

I remember a few of few guys saying they were just lucky to hit a B support by Part 3. :/

Exactly. B support by part 3. You'll notice that for the DB, 3-6 is the start of part 3. If you go too fast in 1-E, Volug will be well ahead of Zihark. Since you need to build up 5 adjacents between 1-8 and 1-E, and 1-8 they start on completely different parts of the map, you can see how this might be difficult. Hence, "lucky to hit a B support".

The reason we say this is to prevent insanity like people assuming you'll have an A support for Z + Nolan or Z + Volug in 3-6. Trust me, it used to happen all the time. You'd get arguments like "oh, you can take a lot of turns in 1-6 and still get full bexp so it's not bad to get them a C for 1-7" and "well, you can sit around waiting for the soldiers to exit for bexp in 1-7 and that gets more time to build support points" or things like that. Basically, not playing remotely efficiently in order to achieve an A support so that Zihark can not be borderline suicidal in 3-6.

I consider this support to be very useful, especially to Zihark, who's getting 2HKO'd. And I also kept Adept on Zihark here, to prove that he can be of use. He was excellent with a Max Mt/Crit. forge and a B support with Volug in 3-6 and 3-12. And the A support helps us 3-turn 3-13. Resolve + A support with Zihark helps Volug's dodge inmensely.

Yay. now instead of like a 40% chance of death, Z's only around 5 to 10 % on any given turn. Amazing! As opposed to Jill and Nolan that you can arrange for 0% or nearly 0% every single turn while getting them a tremendous amount of levels making promotion oh so much easier. You'll notice what attempting to train Zihark has done to your Jill. She's at 12.42 after finishing 3-13. Others have had her at like 15/2 or something silly like that. Interceptor I think had level 20/something.

Colonel M did 3-12 + 3-13 in 1 less turn than you, as well. And you had a lucky dodge in 3-13 or I'm betting you would have had an extra turn. And was Ike OHKO on Volug? What was the listed hit rate? If it was over 10, that's a bad thing. If it was 20 or more, ick. Your Ike has 91 base hit from skill * 2 + luck + stars. 80 from Ragnell. 171 hit.

Volug gets 45 from Zihark, and he had 15 speed and 16 luck to start the map. 15 * 2 * 1.5 + 16 + 45 = 90 + 16 + 45 = 151 avo. That's 20 listed hit. Over 8% true. And depending on bios could have been even worse. Do you remember their bios?

Basically, you got lucky. You even took an extra turn relative to Colonel M back in 3-6.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Anouleth]

Going through my playthrough, and taking slightly more turns building up Zihark and Volug's support...is an A support by 3-13 considered viable now? :)

Who cares? Aside from Zihark, who's not particularly useful here, nobody gets any benefit from it. Volug could just as easily have a support with Nolan if he cared about avoid, and it would be a little bit faster too. An extra chapter means we don't need to glue them together as fanatically as with Zihark.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Junkhead]

Exactly. B support by part 3. You'll notice that for the DB, 3-6 is the start of part 3. If you go too fast in 1-E, Volug will be well ahead of Zihark. Since you need to build up 5 adjacents between 1-8 and 1-E, and 1-8 they start on completely different parts of the map, you can see how this might be difficult. Hence, "lucky to hit a B support".

Maybe I might sound more convincing with an analogy:

1-8: Nailah takes on the whole RHS by herself. Volug goes up and gathers with Zihark so they can head for the LHS where the boss is. That would make 6-7 adjacent turns, since, IIRC, Rafiel Vigor'd Volug so he could move closer to Zihark.

1-E: You might be willing to have them to nothing but support here. They are basically useless, if your goal is to have Volug rescue Zihark for 6 turns, as so he can build their support really fast. You can do the chapter perfectly fine without them, since you have Nailah and BK take over this. The rescuing might not have even been necesary to build the B support up. I was just being insecure there. =P

Yay. now instead of like a 40% chance of death, Z's only around 5 to 10 % on any given turn. Amazing! As opposed to Jill and Nolan that you can arrange for 0% or nearly 0% every single turn while getting them a tremendous amount of levels making promotion oh so much easier. You'll notice what attempting to train Zihark has done to your Jill. She's at 12.42 after finishing 3-13. Others have had her at like 15/2 or something silly like that. Interceptor I think had level 20/something.

Colonel M did 3-12 + 3-13 in 1 less turn than you, as well. And you had a lucky dodge in 3-13 or I'm betting you would have had an extra turn. And was Ike OHKO on Volug? What was the listed hit rate? If it was over 10, that's a bad thing. If it was 20 or more, ick. Your Ike has 91 base hit from skill * 2 + luck + stars. 80 from Ragnell. 171 hit.

Volug gets 45 from Zihark, and he had 15 speed and 16 luck to start the map. 15 * 2 * 1.5 + 16 + 45 = 90 + 16 + 45 = 151 avo. That's 20 listed hit. Over 8% true. And depending on bios could have been even worse. Do you remember their bios?

Basically, you got lucky. You even took an extra turn relative to Colonel M back in 3-6.

5-10% chances of death are not in the least bad. As for Bios. Ike was at low. He had low Hit at first since he was using Pinky. (A total of 165% Hit, so that makes 180% with Ragnell)

As for Jill: I didn't hinder her training because I've been training Zihark. I think it was clear Zihark got the least Exp of my current DB team, since I've only been really concentrating on Micaiah and Jill. Since others actually gave Paragon to Jill , it helped with her training. I gave her Beastfoe instead, which was really helpful for clearing the first laguz blocking your way to Ike. I could have done it in 3 turns even if Jill hadn't dodged the Tiger's attack. I could have sent her out of that enemy's range, instead of going stead-forward like I did.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Totally not Hika's alt

[Narga_Rocks]

Who cares? Aside from Zihark, who's not particularly useful here, nobody gets any benefit from it. Volug could just as easily have a support with Nolan if he cared about avoid, and it would be a little bit faster too. An extra chapter means we don't need to glue them together as fanatically as with Zihark.

I wouldn't be so sure.

They are a 02. They need 7 in 2 chapters to get a support in 2 chapters. Now, they get more chapter bonuses, but the extra one can't be split between all three levels of the support.

In other words, Zihark must go 2, 2, 2 with Volug, since you know you aren't getting 9 in a single chapter to get a 1.

Nolan can go 3, 2, 2; 2, 3, 2; 2, 2, 3. That's it. So which do you choose?

1-5 - 1-7, 1-8 + 1-E, 3-6 + 3-12

1-5 + 1-6, 1-7 - 1-E, 3-6 + 3-12

1-5 + 1-6, 1-7 + 1-8, 1-E - 3-12

It is, perhaps, simple enough to get a level between 3-6 and 3-12. So will ignore the last option. Which is less difficult to pull off? 7 adjacents between 1-5 and 1-6 or 7 between 1-8 and 1-E? To be honest, I'm not actually certain. Let's assume, for the moment, that 1-5 to 1-6 is simple enough. Hey, 3 "chapters" and you only need 7 adjacents. You get 3 free ones on the deployment if you are willing to go for it. That means you just need 4 total as you progress. 1-7 to 1-E should be pretty simply since deployment alone nets you 45 points and you just need 4 at this point since you only need 49 to get from C to B or B to A. adjacent + shove or adjacent + adjacent. Or heck, a single turn of carrying (provided you begin a turn with Nolan held by Volug). And again, you could get adjacents from your deployment set up.

Actually, it all comes down to this question:

what is easier: Nolan + Volug getting 4 adjacents between 1-5, 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 (you can get 3 of 7 adjacents from deployment and thus need only 4) or Zihark + Volug getting 3 adjacents between 1-8 and 1-E (you can get 2 of 5 from deployment and thus need only 3)?

I'm not actually certain which one is easier, though I suspect you could be right after all that Nolan is easier. Keep in mind, though, he still does need 2 extra part 3 adjacents. Though I suppose 3-6 and 3-12 are long enough it may not matter, provided you can make them adjacent without ruining any plans.

And soul, with your numbers Ike having 20 displayed on Volug before Resolve is quite literally impossible. Even with Ike on worst and Volug on best, without the resolve bonus, based on your stats, Volug is facing 30 listed. Now, granted, if you did manage to get lucky with those bios then Resolve would cut that to 0, but having 20 listed without resolve is impossible, sorry. You are remembering wrong.

15 speed. Doubled is 30. Resolve makes 45. Double that to get your avo from speed is 90. Another 16 from luck. 17 I'm assuming was after the confrontation. It would only be a difference of 1 anyway. 90 + 16 = 106. You get 45 tops from earth x earth in this game. 151. And Ike has 171. That's 20 displayed. 8% true is an absolutely terrible chance of death. And I'm guessing you gambled on that twice?

And, um, why would you ever give a coin to a forge you are making for the purpose of it being weak? What????

Edited September 23, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Junkhead]

And soul, with your numbers Ike having 20 displayed on Zihark is quite literally impossible. Even with Ike on worst and Volug on best, without the resolve bonus, based on your stats, Volug is facing 30 listed. Now, granted, if you did manage to get lucky with those bios then Resolve would cut that to 0, but having 20 listed without resolve is impossible, sorry. You are remembering wrong.

I am so sorry. That was from a previous run.

15 speed. Doubled is 30. Resolve makes 45. Double that to get your avo from speed is 90. Another 16 from luck. 17 I'm assuming was after the confrontation. It would only be a difference of 1 anyway. 90 + 16 = 106. You get 45 tops from earth x earth in this game. 151. And Ike has 171. That's 20 displayed. 8% true is an absolutely terrible chance of death. And I'm guessing you gambled on that twice?

Gamble? No, not really. Having less than 20% Hit chances on Volug makes it very unlikely for Ike to hit him.

And, um, why would you ever give a coin to a forge you are making for the purpose of it being weak? What????

There's an option to cancel it? Lol. I got +4 Coins from Pinky anyway. :P

Edited September 23, 2010 by Totally not Hika's alt

[Narga_Rocks]

There's an option to cancel it? Lol. I got +4 Coins from Pinky anyway. :P

It asks you if you want to use a coin!! Remember that old anti-drug campaign: "Just say no"

[Junkhead]

So...I don't see what's the big deal with Ike having very low Hit rates on Volug is. I mean, 30~% is a little risky, but that shouldn't be worrysome at all when you're lowering it to 1-digit numbers while Volug is using Resolve.

If you think of it well, many strategies are luck-based if it includes landing a finishing blow that doesn't have a perfect Hit rate. Yet, we still try them, knowing the possibilities are failure are highly low.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Totally not Hika's alt

[Narga_Rocks]

So...I don't see what's the big deal with Ike having very low Hit rates on Volug is. I mean, 30~% is a little risky, but that shouldn't be worrysome at all when you're lowering it to 1-digit numbers while Volug is using Resolve.

If you think of it well, many strategies are luck-based if it includes landing a finishing blow that doesn't have a perfect Hit rate. Yet, we still try them, knowing the possibilities are failure are highly low.

Again, that's only if you have Ike on worst and Volug on best. If not, if they are equal, you are looking at 20% listed. 8% is very much NOT "highly low". It is way to high to rely on for not dying. This is worse than most of dondon's RNG manipulations (at least, in RD. In fe6 there was a ton of forcing crits all over the place, but then it was probably necessary just for a decent completion time on 0% growths).

Considering Jill is a perfectly safe method to finish and we rag on Aran for facing CODs in 1-4 when others aren't, the conclusion about Volug's COD in 3-13 should be rather obvious. And Zihark needs to crack 30 speed just to beat Volug's already risky situation. 12/1 to beat it negligibly. 13/1 still only beats it by 2 speed, so 2 * 1.5 * 2 = 6 avo. 14. And Nolan is arguably an easier way for Volug to reach A earth anyway.

Oh, and what happens if Volug just happens to be in a bad bio comparison to Ike? Hmm? That 20 can rise to 40. 32.4% true. Surely you aren't about to tell me that one is "highly low".

Edited September 23, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Anouleth]

Maybe I might sound more convincing with an analogy:

1-8: Nailah takes on the whole RHS by herself. Volug goes up and gathers with Zihark so they can head for the LHS where the boss is. That would make 6-7 adjacent turns, since, IIRC, Rafiel Vigor'd Volug so he could move closer to Zihark.

Well, dondon and Colonel M both 4-turned this chapter. I 3-turned, and I can tell you now that Volug cannot go to the centre if you're 3 turning since Nailah can't kill fast enough on her own. In any case, I prefer to have Volug shove Rafiel through the reeds so he can reach Micaiah more quickly.

1-E: You might be willing to have them to nothing but support here. They are basically useless, if your goal is to have Volug rescue Zihark for 6 turns, as so he can build their support really fast. You can do the chapter perfectly fine without them, since you have Nailah and BK take over this. The rescuing might not have even been necesary to build the B support up. I was just being insecure there. =P

Volug is still useful, and we want him to work towards S Strike anyway. Using BEXP, it's pretty reasonable to get him a point of speed for doubling. Nailah and the BK are strong, but they still have no range and BK will be spending half the map in Jill/Nailah's pockets anyway. There are other characters we also need to get to the top of the map who are less game-breaking. Sothe, Micaiah, and Ilyana.

[dondon151]

Oh, and what happens if Volug just happens to be in a bad bio comparison to Ike? Hmm? That 20 can rise to 40. 32.4% true. Surely you aren't about to tell me that one is "highly low".

Given my part 1 and part 3 turncounts, I had Volug and Ike at best bio when facing off on turn 4 of 3-13. Volug's bio has lots of room for error (you can go slower than me by like 6 turns and he'll still be at best), but Ike's fluctuates based on your part 3 turncount, and it's safe to assume under efficient play that this will be the bio matchup in 3-13.

[Narga_Rocks]

Given my part 1 and part 3 turncounts, I had Volug and Ike at best bio when facing off on turn 4 of 3-13. Volug's bio has lots of room for error (you can go slower than me by like 6 turns and he'll still be at best), but Ike's fluctuates based on your part 3 turncount, and it's safe to assume under efficient play that this will be the bio matchup in 3-13.

Then 8%, since that's approximately what 20 becomes with true hit. That + all the laguz he has to dodge in the area if he wants to keep living. Did you say Ike gets to move before them or after?