OMG it's a tier list

[Zkirsche]

There's only one on that list that would seriously consider it (scratching Leo) and that's Laura to obtain Light magic. Most of the units would rather use as many level ups as possible or consider it if they're lagging behind by 1-E.

Who says they can't promote at level 20? It's a free level up then. It also allows them to gain an extra level in 1-E.

[dondon151]

Who says they can't promote at level 20? It's a free level up then. It also allows them to gain an extra level in 1-E.

I think Leo demanding a Master Seal to get Beastfoe in part 3 is more deserving than another character demanding a Master Seal to get one extra level. You get 4, anyway, that aren't from Aimee. Who are you going to use them on? Nolan and Jill are candidates for the first 2, and then the other 2 are a tossup between all of the other pieces of failure in the DB. The exception being Leo, who can pull out tricks to preserve his usefulness until part 4.

Now if bringing Volug into 4-E wasn't an issue we might have an argument.

If he ended up with Nolan then there's no problem, since Nolan has a decent 4-E (although Nolan might not necessarily be better than Stefan in 4-E).

See now I don't understand why you wrote paragraphs on how Zihark isn't getting Volug in endgame while admitting that he might also get Nolan which provides the same bonuses.

I like how Boyd randomly got an Earth support from Ike when Ike doesn't give a crap who he supports and thus specifically naming someone who gets it is favoritism.

So what do you propose? No one gets Ike, ever?

And no he's not OHKOing generals with hammer. At that level he'd already have issues OHKOing generals on NORMAL MODE (who have 47-48 HP/29 def).

Boyd needs something like 37 strength and Blood Tide, so he can OHKO generals with a Hammer.

Let's not forget that non-sword users have a disadvantage against Stefan in 4-E-3 because he can wyrmslayer if needed and they can't.

4-E-3 is a chapter that you beat in 2 turns.

Also, that's a high level for Titania. She gets like 5 exp a kill for early part 3, which means overall she's not even promoting until maybe during 3-10

Bullshit. Have you played this game? Titania's promoting long before 3-10 (ps "early part 3" is pretty far away from 3-10).

Like Zihark, there's the whole issue with bringing Volug into 4-E, except unlike Zihark you didn't list any alternatives to the Volug support, so until then Jill is getting -2 def/-30 avoid, either that or she's pretty much counteracting her own lead on Stefan, since using Jill means I have to bring both Jill + Volug, while using Stefan means I can bring someone that's supportless, like a royal, or even just Volke. She probably wins overall, but it's by a very small amount.

Why don't you think of some alternatives instead of discounting every possible one because Cynthia didn't want to waste her time listing them out for you, or are you just stupid? You last sentence contradicts the main gist of your paragraph, because if Jill is edging Stefan out by a small amount (I'm assuming this means she's unsupported) then she's still superior to him, and if Jill + supporter is superior to Stefan + royal, or even if Jill + royal is superior to Stefan + royal, then you haven't shown how Stefan > Jill.

Like Titania, this is a pretty high level for Haar. Which again sucks for him because "lolspeedwing" doesn't clear up his doubling issues.

So while Haar wins durability/move, Stefan has a pretty big offense lead, so it's not so clear cut.

Hammer + Blood Tide, which borderline OHKOs every general on the map. Canto makes Blood Tide easier to use.

That's a very high level for Gatrie. Chances are he's only going to be maybe 20/20/8 or 20/20/9.

No one waits until 20/20 to promote Gatrie. Promote when his speed caps.

[Progenitus]

BTW, smash if you're going to bitch about Gatrie using Urvan, there's no Mt difference between it and Wishblade anyway, so it makes no difference whatsoever.

Wishblade doesn't even show up until you kill Levail in 4-E-2, which generally will happen at the END of the chapter

As for your other points, they're mainly minor nitpicks (oh noes I rounded up .6, teh horror,

The point is that you're being biased, and when there are nitpicks in nearly EVERY SINGLE COMPARISON it kills your own credibility.

Haar can't be 20/12 etc.) and doesn't seem to lead to you grasping the major concept that Stefan is worse than most of the units you're bringing to Endgame. There are more comparisons I could make (Elincia,Ranulf, Skirmir), but you would whine about those too I'm sure.

A couple of levels and/or wrong equipment and/or supports that are actually considered as favoritism make a big difference between whether those units are better than Stefan or not.

-2 levels on Titania for example is -1 spd for her, which is very important when she's borderline doubling even with the inflated level.

And why in the world can't Boyd get an Ike support? Ike likes the Atk boost from Fire, Boyd likes the durability boost from Earth, it's a win/win.

I had a post awhile back about why Ike doesn't want a Mia support, and look! Boyd and Mia have the same affinity. I can link you to it if you want.

See now I don't understand why you wrote paragraphs on how Zihark isn't getting Volug in endgame while admitting that he might also get Nolan which provides the same bonuses.

The thing is that Zihark will have to support Nolan if he wants to get into 4-E, not an if/or support with Volug.

Plus, Jill's only supporter suggested was Volug, so it applies there as well.

So what do you propose? No one gets Ike, ever?

No, you treat it like a stat booster or such. You don't have to actually name a specific unit that's going to get it, but all you actually need is an arbitrary "well X unit is taking Y favoritism away from the team".

Boyd needs something like 37 strength and Blood Tide, so he can OHKO generals with a Hammer.

because leaving ena at the frontlines where she gets doubled by basically everything is such a good idea rite

4-E-3 is a chapter that you beat in 2 turns.

If we're 2-turning this chapter, this means we're going to be rushing through every single chapter in the game.

Oh look, 2-E is now done in 1-2 turns, since we can have Haar and/or Elincia just kill Ludveck.

Oh look, 3-5 can be beaten by fielding only Ike and mashing end turn. Same with 3-7 actually.

It's fun doing retarded crap like this, rite

Bullshit. Have you played this game? Titania's promoting long before 3-10 (ps "early part 3" is pretty far away from 3-10).

I've actually played the game on hard mode, and judging that you think Titania is promoting "long before" 3-10 indicates that you haven't, or you were busy boss abusing or something equally retarded.

For Titania to promote even BY 3-10, she would need to gain 5 levels in 8 chapters, which means 60-65 exp per chapter. She's getting like 1-3 exp for hitting something for all of part 3 and 5 exp for killing something (it might slowly climb up to about 10). Her exp gains are literally so low in early part 3 that she may not even have 50 exp by the end of 3-1, which is already 2 chapters gone.

I don't have the time to do actual exp calculations about how many kills/hits, but I assure you that you should drop this while you're ahead.

Why don't you think of some alternatives instead of discounting every possible one because Cynthia didn't want to waste her time listing them out for you, or are you just stupid?

How about YOU think of some alternatives? I'm not the one supporting Jill here, why is it MY job to come up with ways to improve her?

You last sentence contradicts the main gist of your paragraph, because if Jill is edging Stefan out by a small amount (I'm assuming this means she's unsupported) then she's still superior to him, and if Jill + supporter is superior to Stefan + royal, or even if Jill + royal is superior to Stefan + royal, then you haven't shown how Stefan > Jill

I already listed Jill as superior to Stefan. Unfortunately the problem is it's a fairly small win.

And Stefan doesn't have to be better than EVERYONE. He just needs to be better than your 10th pick for 4-E. With 5 royals (and the laughable idea that we're fielding all 5 of them, let alone 5 combat laguz in general), 5 beorcs that are better than Stefan (in varying degrees), and a bunch of other units who are just comparable, it's pretty easy for Stefan to be better than just the 10th choice for 4-E.

Hammer + Blood Tide, which borderline OHKOs every general on the map. Canto makes Blood Tide easier to use.

Yes, because there's no problem keeping lolena alive at the frontlines, and there's no problem ignoring every other chapter that has no generals (i.e. 3 of them, and generals aren't even terribly common in the fourth).

No one waits until 20/20 to promote Gatrie. Promote when his speed caps.

Unfortunately that requires a master crown which is in heavy demand.

I also like how over half my post was ignored, by BOTH of you.

Edited June 19, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Colonel M]

Unfortunately that requires a master crown which is in heavy demand.

Really? Excluding Titania the obvious, who? Oh by the way, I have a HUGE ASS post that even helps support it going toward Gatrie, if you'd really like to see.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Colonel M

[Progenitus]

Really? Excluding Titania the obvious, who?

Oscar so he can escape his 24 spd cap earlier.

Soren so he can escape his 23 spd cap earlier, plus staves.

Shinon so he can 3-range earlier.

*insert random DB unit that like shaving off a couple levels in 2nd tier*

*fuck, insert any unit in here because they could shave off a level or two*

Oh by the way, I have a HUGE ASS post that even helps support it going toward Gatrie, if you'd really like to see.

Let me guess, it's going to be about how Gatrie now doubles.

Hey guess what? That applies to half the other people in the game.

Edited June 19, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Colonel M]

Here's the post Just take a peep. Simply read the top half.

It slightly involves that, but it also shows the reasons why an early promotion is out of many, if not almost all of the GM's reach. Not the greatest exampale, but you're going to need more than "escape Spd cap" for Titania and Oscar's part since Titania doesn't even cap Spd and Gatrie here caps 3 stats easily.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Colonel M

[-Cynthia-]

Basically, most of the support options I listed can be replaced with other supporters. I gave them all reasonable support options, but Jill's Volug support can easily be replaced with Nolan/Zihark and give exactly the same bonuses, for example. Only a handful of characters I listed won't have A supports built up, the royals which curbstomp Stefan anyway. A smart player plans out their team so that they would have their support options going into Endgame.

I ignored a lot of your points, simply becuase they were irrelevant or just plain stupid. For example, why would be even using RNG screwed characters characters in the first place? If they get that badly screwed, replacing them with another option would be more efficient. RNG blessed characters are more likely to be used for Edngame, and thus are important for this comparison. Many of the characters I listed were RNG proof anyway (Volke, the royals, the hawks), so there would have to be an epic amount of RNG screwage for us to consider using Stefan.

[dondon151]

I had a post awhile back about why Ike doesn't want a Mia support, and look! Boyd and Mia have the same affinity. I can link you to it if you want.

PE and crap but IkexMia is a truly awesome support combination - try it out sometime.

The thing is that Zihark will have to support Nolan if he wants to get into 4-E, not an if/or support with Volug.

Plus, Jill's only supporter suggested was Volug, so it applies there as well.

These are quite dumb nitpicks. Zihark can get Nolan. Jill can get Zihark or Nolan. Not that hard.

No, you treat it like a stat booster or such. You don't have to actually name a specific unit that's going to get it, but all you actually need is an arbitrary "well X unit is taking Y favoritism away from the team".

OK, there are two things you can do when posting a unit's stats: pair him with Ike, or don't pair him with Ike. You're denying an Ike support, which means you don't pair people with Ike. By this logic, no one is guaranteed any support unless the other unit has the shittiest affinity ever. No one wants to go through a whole slew of "what ifs."

because leaving ena at the frontlines where she gets doubled by basically everything is such a good idea rite

Because using Ena means we don't have people standing on all sides making use of Blood Tide right

If we're 2-turning this chapter, this means we're going to be rushing through every single chapter in the game.

Wrong. There are crucial differences:

2-E, 3-5, and 3-7 yield EXP in a portion of a game where EXP is still important. EXP is not important in 4-E-3 because not only should your units be awesome, but stats stop mattering unless your speed is not high enough to double an aura with White Pool.

2-E and 3-5 yield good stuff.

3-7 yields bonus footage and the chance to recruit GM and DB units for more EXP.

For Titania to promote even BY 3-10, she would need to gain 5 levels in 8 chapters, which means 60-65 exp per chapter. She's getting like 1-3 exp for hitting something for all of part 3 and 5 exp for killing something (it might slowly climb up to about 10). Her exp gains are literally so low in early part 3 that she may not even have 50 exp by the end of 3-1, which is already 2 chapters gone.

4 levels and a crown, and let's not forget BEXP! 5 EXP per kill is way too low but I don't have access to my RD to double check (I have a 3-P save).

How about YOU think of some alternatives? I'm not the one supporting Jill here, why is it MY job to come up with ways to improve her?

Logically speaking, let's deny a character every resource possible to make him appear worse than another character! Yeah!

And Stefan doesn't have to be better than EVERYONE. He just needs to be better than your 10th pick for 4-E. With 5 royals (and the laughable idea that we're fielding all 5 of them, let alone 5 combat laguz in general), 5 beorcs that are better than Stefan (in varying degrees), and a bunch of other units who are just comparable, it's pretty easy for Stefan to be better than just the 10th choice for 4-E.

Your 4 laguz royals are your 4 best combat units; why aren't we fielding all of them?

Yes, because there's no problem keeping lolena alive at the frontlines, and there's no problem ignoring every other chapter that has no generals (i.e. 3 of them, and generals aren't even terribly common in the fourth).

Ena I've already addressed.

4-E-1 is your longest 4-E chapter, at about 7 turns. 4-E-2 takes 2 turns. 4-E-3 takes 2 turns (unless your unit suck, then too bad). 4-E-4 takes 2 turns.

Unfortunately that requires a master crown which is in heavy demand.

You get 5 of them. Assuming the GMs get 3 of them, Gatrie has no problems getting a Master Crown.

I also like how over half my post was ignored, by BOTH of you.

I had a violin lesson and then work. Sorry that both of those take priority over responding to your post.

Edited June 20, 2009 by dondon151

[Progenitus]

i'll counter the whole "well gatrie is the only contender for the 3-3 crown" crap later, since that's a lot of units to go through.

Basically, most of the support options I listed can be replaced with other supporters. I gave them all reasonable support options, but Jill's Volug support can easily be replaced with Nolan/Zihark and give exactly the same bonuses, for example. Only a handful of characters I listed won't have A supports built up, the royals which curbstomp Stefan anyway. A smart player plans out their team so that they would have their support options going into Endgame.

lolboyd getting ike

loltitania getting oscar

very reasonable mirite

I ignored a lot of your points, simply becuase they were irrelevant or just plain stupid. For example, why would be even using RNG screwed characters characters in the first place? If they get that badly screwed, replacing them with another option would be more efficient. RNG blessed characters are more likely to be used for Edngame, and thus are important for this comparison. Many of the characters I listed were RNG proof anyway (Volke, the royals, the hawks), so there would have to be an epic amount of RNG screwage for us to consider using Stefan.

You need enough RNG blessed characters + some fillers to actually fill all 10 slots so Stefan can't make it into 4-E, and we're only using like 12 guys total before 4-E anyway, with several of them not even real contenders for 4-E (such as the laguz), not to mention that a unit AND the supporter need to be at least average (if one of them gets RNG screwed you might just drop both of them, even if the other got slightly blessed).

Yes, these are just very, very common occurrences rite

PE and crap but IkexMia is a truly awesome support combination - try it out sometime.

...damn, I just remembered that my post about why ike doesn't need att (because it's not helping him) got deleted when the server crashed and shit.

But that was basically the gist of it. The only thing Ike can't 2HKO are generals, and the att support is not helping there anyway.

And that's beside the point anyway, since this is boyd somehow getting the ike support, and I simply pointed out that boyd and mia had the same affinity, and ike doesn't care who he's supporting.

These are quite dumb nitpicks. Zihark can get Nolan. Jill can get Zihark or Nolan. Not that hard.

I wonder if I should point out that it's impossible for both Jill and Zihark to get an earth support if Volug is out of the picture.

Nah, I think he'll realize that on his own.

oh wait, this is loldondon.

OK, there are two things you can do when posting a unit's stats: pair him with Ike, or don't pair him with Ike. You're denying an Ike support, which means you don't pair people with Ike. By this logic, no one is guaranteed any support unless the other unit has the shittiest affinity ever. No one wants to go through a whole slew of "what ifs."

This does not even counter my point.

Did you even read what I said?

Because using Ena means we don't have people standing on all sides making use of Blood Tide right

Because we're always going to have 4 units on all sides of Ena, plus we're neglecting the fact that 2-range enemies exist and they'll be able to reach her, nevermind that those 4 units now can't be doing anything else like walling in our heron.

such a genius strategy rite

Wrong. There are crucial differences:

2-E, 3-5, and 3-7 yield EXP in a portion of a game where EXP is still important. EXP is not important in 4-E-3 because not only should your units be awesome, but stats stop mattering unless your speed is not high enough to double an aura with White Pool.

2-E and 3-5 yield good stuff.

3-7 yields bonus footage and the chance to recruit GM and DB units for more EXP.

It's not about exp, but rather "WE'RE USING ONE STRATEGY AND ONE STRATEGY ONLY TO BEAT THE GAME, CAUSE IT'S FUN UNDERMINING THE ENTIRE POINT OF A TIER LIST".

WE'RE GONNA BE USING THE EXACT SAME TEAM SO WE CAN BEAT 4-E-2 IN 2 TURNS EVERY SINGLE TIME. THIS DOESN'T COMPLETELY FORCE ME TO USE THE EXACT SAME TEAM EVERY SINGLE PLAYTHROUGH RITE

4 levels and a crown, and let's not forget BEXP! 5 EXP per kill is way too low but I don't have access to my RD to double check (I have a 3-P save).

ahahaha a crown

oh wait you're serious

since you're saying she's promoting before 3-10, we only have one crown at the moment, and somehow titania is going to get it?

BEXP is retarded too because so many other units can make use of it, and there's so little of it to go around that it'd be favoritism anyway.

Also...

Level 16 Titania killing a level 7 enemy gives her 7 exp. If the enemy is level 6 instead she gets 5.5 exp (which rounds down to 5).

And yes, the enemies are about level 7 in 3-P and 3-1 (you can check the enemy stats for yourself), and after that point their average level only increases by about 1 level every chapter. So yes, Titania's exp gains are lolcrap for a huge section of part 3.

Logically speaking, let's deny a character every resource possible to make him appear worse than another character! Yeah!

I like how that has nothing to do with who Jill ends up supporting.

But I suppose when you have a person like dondon who is Sherlock Holmes without the intelligence, the best you can come up with is a non sequitur.

Your 4 laguz royals are your 4 best combat units; why aren't we fielding all of them?

Yeah, because the whole "well damn we have no 2-range" makes them so awesome, rite

4-E-1 is your longest 4-E chapter, at about 7 turns. 4-E-2 takes 2 turns. 4-E-3 takes 2 turns (unless your unit suck, then too bad). 4-E-4 takes 2 turns.

because using the same strategy and the same team to beat every single chapter doesn't completely defeat the purpose of a tier list, rite

also, wtflawl @ beating 4-E-2 in 2 turns. Because somehow Ike is going to use the hammer which magically has 2-range and ike will somehow double without favoritism

At 20/20/10 Ike with the hammer does ~33 damage, and the BK recover 18 HP a turn, which really sucks for Ike because the BK gets a free attack on enemy phase and Ike now has to chase him around the place, which means Ike doesn't get cover, and Ike is getting 3HKO'd if he's not able to use ragnell and sit on a cover, which means you're just wasting all your time since ike has to heal himself with an elixer and BK will just imbue back to full HP anyway.

With Ragnell instead, he does ~12 damage a hit. Well at least now he's countering on enemy phase + gets like 6HKO'd at lower hit rates since he can sit on cover and his supporter can be in range, but he's certainly not killing the BK in 2 turns.

Complaining about Ike's level being too low doesn't help anyway, since he needs to be like 20/20/18 to get 34 spd and double, and making him like 20/20/12 instead just makes him do about 1 more damage and take 1 less.

You get 5 of them. Assuming the GMs get 3 of them, Gatrie has no problems getting a Master Crown.

By the time you even get those other master crowns, Gatrie will be almost at promotion ANYWAY.

Gatrie has to get the 3-3 crown if he wants to promote early, which is in high competition.

Let me ask you this, and please answer honestly; have you even played hard mode?

Edited June 20, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Florete]

WE'RE GONNA BE USING THE EXACT SAME TEAM SO WE CAN BEAT 4-E-2 IN 2 TURNS EVERY SINGLE TIME. THIS DOESN'T COMPLETELY FORCE ME TO USE THE EXACT SAME TEAM EVERY SINGLE PLAYTHROUGH RITE

4-E-2's completion doesn't rely on any team at all, it relies on a single character: Ike.

So no, it actually doesn't force you to use the same team every time, it forces you to use one of the best characters in the game. Horribly restrictive.

also, wtflawl @ beating 4-E-2 in 2 turns. Because somehow Ike is going to use the hammer which magically has 2-range and ike will somehow double without favoritism

At 20/20/10 Ike with the hammer does ~33 damage, and the BK recover 18 HP a turn, which really sucks for Ike because the BK gets a free attack on enemy phase and Ike now has to chase him around the place, which means Ike doesn't get cover, and Ike is getting 3HKO'd if he's not able to use ragnell and sit on a cover, which means you're just wasting all your time since ike has to heal himself with an elixer and BK will just imbue back to full HP anyway.

With Ragnell instead, he does ~12 damage a hit. Well at least now he's countering on enemy phase + gets like 6HKO'd at lower hit rates since he can sit on cover and his supporter can be in range, but he's certainly not killing the BK in 2 turns.

Complaining about Ike's level being too low doesn't help anyway, since he needs to be like 20/20/18 to get 34 spd and double, and making him like 20/20/12 instead just makes him do about 1 more damage and take 1 less.

It's probably been a while since you played this chapter or you'd know what I'm about to tell you. The Black Knight will attack Ike close up regardless of what weapon Ike equips, meaning Ike can grab a Hammer and go to town on the BK from right where he's deployed.

So all Ike needs to murder BK in two rounds is some second tier BEXP for extra Speed, a Speed transfer/Speedwing, or a slightly higher level for more Strength (20/15-16 should work). Or all of it of course. The fact that Imbue doesn't help BK on Player Phase helps us a lot.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Progenitus]

4-E-2's completion doesn't rely on any team at all, it relies on a single character: Ike.

So no, it actually doesn't force you to use the same team every time, it forces you to use one of the best characters in the game. Horribly restrictive.

Oops, I typo'd and put 4-E-2, and not 4-E-3 like what I was responding to.

But my post was still in response to dondon's amazing "LET'S 2-TURN 4-E-3", so this basically shows you don't even bother to see if your argument is in context.

It's probably been a while since you played this chapter or you'd know what I'm about to tell you. The Black Knight will attack Ike close up regardless of what weapon Ike equips, meaning Ike can grab a Hammer and go to town on the BK from right where he's deployed.

So all Ike needs to murder BK in two rounds is some second tier BEXP for extra Speed, a Speed transfer/Speedwing, or a slightly higher level for more Strength (20/15-16 should work). Or all of it of course. The fact that Imbue doesn't help BK on Player Phase helps us a lot.

rofl @ speedwing. Yes I want to use a speedwing just so it helps Ike in a grand total of one fight in the entire game.

BEXP is laughable as well, because he doesn't have many levels to BEXP abuse, plus it may not even work (speed is his third highest growth, but luck is only 5% lower, so you may end up with HP/lck/def). And he only has ~31 spd at 20/20/10, which means you need some serious luck with BEXP.

triple lawl @ transfers.

I'll just repost this and be on my way

And transfers has and will always be a ridiculous argument. yes, I'm going to play ~30 chapters of a completely different game just to have a chance of getting +2 to a couple of stats for specific units. It can't even be for all the characters in PoR because you simply don't have the resources to get them to 20/20, so simply choosing transfers for certain units and not others is already favoritism. and then if your chosen characters get RNG screwed and don't cap you just wasted a fuckload of time.

Edited June 20, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Florete]

rofl @ speedwing. Yes I want to use a speedwing just so it helps Ike in a grand total of one fight in the entire game.

Aren't you the guy that hypes on Ike's all-game borderline doubling? A Speedwing will help him out in more ways than just this one.

BEXP is laughable as well, because he doesn't have many levels to BEXP abuse, plus it may not even work (speed is his third highest growth, but luck is only 5% lower, so you may end up with HP/lck/def). And he only has ~31 spd at 20/20/10, which means you need some serious luck with BEXP.

If Skill is capped at 14 (.8 rounded up) and Str is at 26 (25.65, not too far off), a BEXP level will cap Str and get HP and one of Spd, Luck, and Def. The next three would get HP and most likely two of those same three each, meaning if we evened them all out each would get +2, or perhaps Defense will steal one of those Luck points. The remaining two can get those three, although Defense might even cap and allow some Resistance as well. Since Ike has a forced promotion, this isn't very difficult to do. He simply needs to hit level 14 (3 levels) by 3-3 (4 maps) and get close to a level for the next 6 maps to minimize the BEXP used.

What's laughable again?

triple lawl @ transfers.

I'll just repost this and be on my way

And transfers has and will always be a ridiculous argument. yes, I'm going to play ~30 chapters of a completely different game just to have a chance of getting +2 to a couple of stats for specific units. It can't even be for all the characters in PoR because you simply don't have the resources to get them to 20/20, so simply choosing transfers for certain units and not others is already favoritism. and then if your chosen characters get RNG screwed and don't cap you just wasted a fuckload of time.

In PoR normal mode, you can easily get 12-13 PC's to 20/20. That's like your entire endgame team of no Royals + Ike, Sothe, and maybe one more. Since I don't have a fixed game disk, I can't try an easy transfer, but I hear you can get half or more of the cast on easy. Then when you consider that about half the PoR cast can't/won't get transfers because they're 1)Laguz who couldn't cap a stat if they got it on every level as well as used every stat booster in the game, which is all but Reyson IIRC, 2) Pre-promotes who have such low chances to cap stats as it is that the rigging isn't worth it or is impossible anyway (like Tauroneo's Speed), or 3) won't get much, if anything, out of a transfer bonus anyway (Volke, Stefan, Tormod, Reyson, and cases could be made for someone like Sothe), you can cut your list of "transfer candidates" down quite a bit.

Then you consider band and KW usage to further increase chances of capping. Yes, I've looked into this quite a bit, as I use transfer often. I think the only time I didn't was my first hard mode run so I could have the more true experience.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Mekkah]

I think we should just leave off transfers entirely since they're a whole different thing. Like with the deploy-or-not-to-deploy thing, it seems more like a different mode for tier lists than something to argue about.

[Florete]

I think we should just leave off transfers entirely since they're a whole different thing. Like with the deploy-or-not-to-deploy thing, it seems more like a different mode for tier lists than something to argue about.

I disagree. I don't use them as definitive arguments, but if you ask me it's like leaving stat boosters out of the picture because anyone can get them. If a transfer is the difference between doubling or OHKOing or something and it's reasonable for that stat to be transferred on the specific character, it should definitely be brought up.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Paperblade]

BTW, 4-E-1 Generals have 25-26 Spd, and make up a majority of the enemies (I think it was estimated to be about 60% of the enemies, with the rest being enemies with 2 range, meaning Bishops, Sages, and Snipers)

That means that even giving you your random (and inflated, in many cases) levels, units like Boyd and Titania are only borderline doubling, and are up shit creek when we come to chapters like 4-E-2, 4, and 5, whereas the only thing that is even a passing concern for Stefan is having enough Speed to double 4-E-2 SMs (which reach 33-34 Spd, so units like Boyd actually worry about being doubled, which is pretty scary considering these guys have nearly ~35 crit) and Auras without Nasir's help (for Parity).

Your 4 laguz royals are your 4 best combat units; why aren't we fielding all of them?

Because they're locked to 1 range, and 100% of the enemies for 3 of the maps in 4-E have 1-2 range, and even in 4-E-1 and 2 too many enemies have 2 range to make them really worth it, 1 in particular since it's a rout.

Out of the 66 enemies that can attack in 4-E-1, 31 of them have 2 range, 33 are locked to 1 range, and the last only has a siege tome. Since a majority of these enemies are Sages/Bishops, who have poor HP/Speed/Def, pretty much any moron with good speed (29+ is needed to double Sages) and 2 range one rounds them. In 4-E-2, about 33% of the starting enemies have 2 range.

Even if Stefan just uses a Storm Sword and enemy phase counters Sages and does liek 30% to 1 range Generals because the RNG hates him, he'd still be doing net more damage than the Royals, which is pretty damn sad. And before you QQ about 2 range Generals, only 5 of them have 2 range, and most of those are sitting on the Cover tiles, which means that even HAWK GOD TIBARN needs Tear to kill, and most everyone else is SoL.

In 4-E-2 almost every enemy that you can reach from the start is 1 range (I think you can get 2 2 range enemies, as opposed to something stupid like 10 1 range enemies), meaning that being able to counter at 1-2 range is even moar important now, especially since those 2 range guys are behind 1 range guys anyway and you need pretty good Move to get to them anyway (which Royals don't exactly have on Turn 1 since they're untransformed).

4-E-3 being able to counter on enemy phase is huge since almost no one can one round without RNG (Even Cain needs it against Red Dragons, and against White he's being OHKO'd at scary hit rates... then consider the weaker ones like Nailah and Naesala, who have trouble vs. Red even with an Adept proc). For example, with Alondite, Stefan at base level has 43 Crit and 4HKOs White Dragons, which vs. their 11-12 Luck gives him a 50% chance to kill on a counter, and that's assuming they attack at range and that he doesn't have Adept.

And then we get to consider a skill that no one really wants, since no one is really built to use it: Gamble. Dragons have 64-69 Avoid at neutral Bio, and Stefan at 20/12 (There are about 80 enemies in 4-E-1/2, and they're Level 13-15, plus any scraps he picked up in 4-3) has 217 Hit with Vague Katti and any random C Support, as well as 32-33 Crit on Dragons. With Gamble, that gives him 75 displayed Hit (87.5 real) and ~65% Crit, as well as 19% Astra. More support in Stefan's favor is the nice list of unsupported units with +Hit affinities, such as Tibarn, Rafiel (if you're bringing him), Nailah, Elincia, Volke, Sanaki if you hate yourself... This gives him an 89% chance to Crit (factoring in that he has sub-100 hit).

For reference, Level 29 Naesala with the same setup gets 20% Crit and 44% Tear, for an 80% chance to kill. And Naesala has the best RNG of the royals, since the others have inferior Crit and/or mastery activation.

4-E-4, meh, Spirits are jokes, the only ones that are even a passing concern are the ones on the +15 Defense Cover. Stefan being able to counter at 1-2 range is much more useful here.

4-E-5, only Tibarn and Naesala can double without Nasir. This is important since you have 4 Nihils and 2 Parities, and the Nihils should go to high attack units that need Nasir to double (such as the Lion Royals and Nailah). Parity means that Stefan can attack Cover Auras (ignoring the +10 Def and Leadership is like giving him +10 Str and +5 Skl, practically dual Blood Tide right there only without positioning issues).

Not saying that Stefan is better than them, but to say that the Royals are the best units in 4-E and should always be fielded is a laughable statement at best.

4-E-1 is your longest 4-E chapter, at about 7 turns. 4-E-2 takes 2 turns. 4-E-3 takes 2 turns (unless your unit suck, then too bad). 4-E-4 takes 2 turns.

4-E-1 looks fine.

Ike can't kill the BK in 2 turns even if he's painfully overleveled. Here, look at some fun scenarios

20/15 Ike with the Hammer, 62HP, 75 atk, 176 Hit, 20 Crit, 33 AS, 31 Def, 112 Avoid, 21 Dodge, with Ragnell he has -21 atk, +20 hit, +5 Crit, and +5 Defense.

Black Knight with Alondite, 70HP, 56 atk, 180 Hit, 25 Crit, 30 AS, 40 Def, 80 Avoid, 20 Dodge

Ike does 35 (25 on Cover) at 96 hit (liek 99.9 real or something ridiculous) with 0% Crit.

BK does 25 (15 on Cover) at 68 hit (~80 real) with 4% Crit.

Turn 1:

Ike runs up and attacks, dealing 25 damage. BK counters for 25.

BK heals for 18 thanks to Imbue.

BK attacks Ike at 2 range.

Ike: 12HP, BK: 63HP

Turn 2: Ike attacks, Ike dies on the counter or enemy phase.

or

Ike heals, BK heals to full. Rinse and repeat until you run out of Elixirs.

Turn 1:

Ike stands still.

BK walks up and attacks Ike at 2 range.

Ike: 37HP, BK: 70HP

Turn 2: Ike attacks.

BK Imbue heals.

BK attacks Ike at 2 range.

Ike dies.

Turn 1: Ike stands still, but now with Ragnell!

BK walks up and attacks Ike at 1 range, because that's just how he rolls.

Ike: 52HP, BK: 56HP

Turn 2: Ike Hammers, since he's still on Cover!

BK Imbue heals.

BK attacks Ike at 2 range.

Ike: 22HP, BK: 35HP

This isn't 2 turns, and falls apart with an even slightly Str screwed Ike (and since he's 20/15 already...)

Ragnell spam: net 10 damage a turn, takes ~7 turns (I realize Ike can leapfrog, but he also has to watch his own health).

I guess there's also the ever popular "run near the wall to get a support boost", but since Ike is supporting Boyd or Mia, the BK still has 41% real hit on him.

BTW, Ike can't BEXP abuse, his caps are ridiculously high and his Spd growth is pitiful.

4-E-3, you have to kill a bunch of Red Dragons on Wardwood tiles (have fun) while making sure the dragons from the sides and behind don't overwhelm you. I realize most people don't play on Hard because they feel pigeonholed into using certain units due to a lack of EXP, but can you at least make an effort to pretend that you know what you're talking about?

Alright, here, let's look at the map from Prog's 4-E-3 speedrun, just for a point of reference (also, in case you aren't paying attention, he spends nearly 25k Normal Mode BEXP just to get the Royals strong enough so that they can kill Dheg without being swarmed and breathed to death).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1wvYOqQy8I...5D&index=42

Now, there isn't enough BEXP or stat boosters to warrant that kind of abuse on the royals, so we'll have to clear out the dragons. Now, I can see 8 Dragons that are an immediate threat to Ike and Rafiel, both of which I like to think are pretty important for the next 2 maps. Additionally, there are a couple of near our starting position, as well as about 10 more behind Dheg that could also pose a threat or just get in the way and be annoying. Additionally, since we're bumrushing up the middle, we run into the issue of Dheg's AoE attack gibbing people, which is a huge issue since we're playing like a 6 year old and putting people into range of about 20 dragons when even units like Cain are being 3HKO'd by White (4HKO'd on Wardwood) and 8HKO'd by Red.

4-E-4, if you kill the outside spirits, the ones on the diamond around Sephiran will move to take their place, and they're a pain to kill (35+ Defense, 30 Spd, 40HP). Additionally, the starting guys that move can gang up and kill someone or just get in the way.

They're shorter than other chapters, but I think you've been watching too many Prog speedruns if you really think that the average team can 2-3 turn these chapters.

You get 5 of them. Assuming the GMs get 3 of them, Gatrie has no problems getting a Master Crown.

The entire point of Crowning Gatrie is crowning him at a point in time where 25 Spd doubles, not in 3-11 where enemies have 22-23 Spd.

2-E, 3-5, and 3-7 yield EXP in a portion of a game where EXP is still important. EXP is not important in 4-E-3 because not only should your units be awesome, but stats stop mattering unless your speed is not high enough to double an aura with White Pool.

Protip: We don't rush chapters because we aren't Prog and don't have a week to spend RNG abusing every other turn, plus this is HM so Battle Saves don't exist. We kill Dragons because they're dangerous and 3HKO Tibarn and the last thing I want is 10 of those things running around after me while I try to kill their 100HP/75 Atk/50 Defense king, not because they're EXP pinatas.

[Mekkah]

Good Paperblade post but I'm confused now. Does Black Knight try to use ranged against Hammer Ike or not? Also, I thought your heron always gets ignored by 4-E-3+ enemies?

also

I disagree. I don't use them as definitive arguments, but if you ask me it's like leaving stat boosters out of the picture because anyone can get them. If a transfer is the difference between doubling or OHKOing or something and it's reasonable for that stat to be transferred on the specific character, it should definitely be brought up.

Transfers do more than being semi-stat boosters, besides the fact that they're only available for FE9 characters + Danved (he is certainly not Devdan). They can shift units entire tiers, since they can affect so many important stats. I mean, in this case, Ike is doubling once more, but consider what a transfer does for Nephenee or Jill, who get considerably better performances at their base levels. Jill, for example, with capped str/spd in PoR, now essentially gets +2 atk and +4 AS. If she did 10 damage to something she can now double, she's doing 24. And that has cumulative effects, like Jill suddendly being able to gain EXP faster (also because of transfers that work defensively).

They are too huge to be jampacked into a tier list with the possibilities of "whether or not this unit gets transfers" when that tier list is already having trouble containing all the info as it is, what with skill access and the stat boosters in this game.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Mekkah

[Progenitus]

Aren't you the guy that hypes on Ike's all-game borderline doubling? A Speedwing will help him out in more ways than just this one.

Because that speedwing couldn't just go to anyone else, rite. Of course we're going to give it to Ike because this one battle is all so important, moreso than the rest of the game

If Skill is capped at 14 (.8 rounded up) and Str is at 26 (25.65, not too far off), a BEXP level will cap Str and get HP and one of Spd, Luck, and Def. The next three would get HP and most likely two of those same three each, meaning if we evened them all out each would get +2, or perhaps Defense will steal one of those Luck points. The remaining two can get those three, although Defense might even cap and allow some Resistance as well. Since Ike has a forced promotion, this isn't very difficult to do. He simply needs to hit level 14 (3 levels) by 3-3 (4 maps) and get close to a level for the next 6 maps to minimize the BEXP used.

Yes, because somehow Ike will be able to cap his level off 4 consecutive times, which means we have to control how much exp Ike is actually getting in these chapters, which really sucks for us since Ike is one of our best fighters and limiting his exposure to attacks just makes us go slower. And then even after that you have to pray that he gets +spd in the whole ordeal, so basically you MIGHT get an extra 1 spd (since leveling up normally would give him ~1.5 spd) after all that crap.

btw, killing off the BK before levail means you don't get the wishblade, so we don't want to be blazing through the chapter anyway.

In PoR normal mode, you can easily get 12-13 PC's to 20/20. That's like your entire endgame team of no Royals + Ike, Sothe, and maybe one more. Since I don't have a fixed game disk, I can't try an easy transfer, but I hear you can get half or more of the cast on easy. Then when you consider that about half the PoR cast can't/won't get transfers because they're 1)Laguz who couldn't cap a stat if they got it on every level as well as used every stat booster in the game, which is all but Reyson IIRC, 2) Pre-promotes who have such low chances to cap stats as it is that the rigging isn't worth it or is impossible anyway (like Tauroneo's Speed), or 3) won't get much, if anything, out of a transfer bonus anyway (Volke, Stefan, Tormod, Reyson, and cases could be made for someone like Sothe), you can cut your list of "transfer candidates" down quite a bit.

Then you consider band and KW usage to further increase chances of capping. Yes, I've looked into this quite a bit, as I use transfer often. I think the only time I didn't was my first hard mode run so I could have the more true experience.

I like how you don't even respond to half my post, which is actually the more significant part

And transfers has and will always be a ridiculous argument. yes, I'm going to play ~30 chapters of a completely different game just to have a chance of getting +2 to a couple of stats for specific units. It can't even be for all the characters in PoR because you simply don't have the resources to get them to 20/20, so simply choosing transfers for certain units and not others is already favoritism. and then if your chosen characters get RNG screwed and don't cap you just wasted a fuckload of time.

and btw, it's still a mere chance to cap something. So if your Ike got RNG screwed and didn't cap speed you just wasted a fuckload of time for no result.

[Zkirsche]

To change the topic, I think we need to move the hawks up. As interceptor showed, Zihark is kinda overrated, and i don't really believe that he and nolan are that far above Mia. Then, I'm in doubt that Rafiel > Ulki and Janaff too. Since Rafiel doesn't go to teh final and has trouble vigoring 4 units at a time, we'll give him +3 for each of his chapters save part 4 (Pegasus = fail) where we'll cut him down for poor durability and give him +1 in each chapter. This leaves him with +8. Ulki and janaff get + 1 in all of thier chapters, counting 4-E as 3 chapters. That gives them +10 overall. Even Nailah only get +7, but she has formshift so I'll accept she's better than janaff and Ulki for now.

What I'm proposing is something that looks like this:

Nailah

Janaff

Ulki

Zihark

Nolan

Rafiel

Everyone understand?

[-Cynthia-]

A few points Paperblade:

Giffca and Nailah can double auras without Nasir, their speed caps allow them to do so. The only royal not doubling without Nasir is Caineghis.

The BK doesn't attack Ike at 2 range. He's like PoR Ashnard and attacks Ike up close for some unknown reason.

Herons aren't attacked past 4-E(2).

Again, counterattacking spirits doesn't help clear the chapter. Plus, since spirits can teleport and will gang up on those who can't counter, Stefan's possible 1-2 range is only useful if there is no one using 1 range on the team, which is highly unlikely.

Basically, it still boils down to Stefan is taking up the slot if a better unit whenever he's available. He never provides anything but minor negative utility. Thus, he should be behind units that do provide positive utility.

I don't think Titania is horribly overleveled. It's about a level a chapter, which is fair considering how good she is. Obviously she's gaining less than that to start with, but she should also gain more than that on maps like 4-4 that have ridiculous enemy numbers.

BTW, if we're going to go with "use units when they're available all the time" method, Heather needs to drop by a lot, since by Vykan's method we're forced to field her on maps where she has nothing to steal and we're also forced to make her into a combat unit and bring her to Endgame. She's a good example of why that method is rather silly.

kirsche, why are you giving Rafiel more credit for chapters like 1-8 than his Part 4 chapters? He's not very useful on 1-8, since most of the action occurs in the north and on the western island, and he's stuck on the eastern island that Nailah easily soloes anyway. If he wants to get over to the far eastern side, it's going to take several turns, by then the map is almost clear. The units you can bring to Part 4 can more easily protect Rafiel than the DB (plus there should be more of them).

[Zkirsche]

kirsche, why are you giving Rafiel more credit for chapters like 1-8 than his Part 4 chapters? He's not very useful on 1-8, since most of the action occurs in the north and on the western island, and he's stuck on the eastern island that Nailah easily soloes anyway. If he wants to get over to the far eastern side, it's going to take several turns, by then the map is almost clear. The units you can bring to Part 4 can more easily protect Rafiel than the DB (plus there should be more of them).

In 4-1 he faces pegs and open maps with fog of war. Basically, it's stupidly hard to protect him. Then in 4-4 you end up with units that appear behind him, boxing him in. And he can't refresh multiple units that are on ledges anyway.

[dondon151]

That means that even giving you your random (and inflated, in many cases) levels, units like Boyd and Titania are only borderline doubling, and are up shit creek when we come to chapters like 4-E-2, 4, and 5, whereas the only thing that is even a passing concern for Stefan is having enough Speed to double 4-E-2 SMs (which reach 33-34 Spd, so units like Boyd actually worry about being doubled, which is pretty scary considering these guys have nearly ~35 crit) and Auras without Nasir's help (for Parity).

I already said that Boyd OHKOs generals with Hammer + Blood Tide and at least 37 strength. Stefan can't ORKO generals without skill activations.

Out of the 66 enemies that can attack in 4-E-1, 31 of them have 2 range, 33 are locked to 1 range, and the last only has a siege tome. Since a majority of these enemies are Sages/Bishops, who have poor HP/Speed/Def, pretty much any moron with good speed (29+ is needed to double Sages) and 2 range one rounds them. In 4-E-2, about 33% of the starting enemies have 2 range.

A majority are actually generals that units that aren't laguz royals have significant trouble ORKOing.

Sages/Bishops I have to give you, but I disagree with 1-2 range generals, because no one is ORKOing generals at range on enemy phase (except maybe Ike with a lot of strength), so you're forced to mop them up on player phase. The laguz royals don't care about countering because anything they attack on player phase has a huge chance of dying if not outright ORKO'd.

most of those are sitting on the Cover tiles, which means that even HAWK GOD TIBARN needs Tear to kill, and most everyone else is SoL.

Parity.

In 4-E-2 almost every enemy that you can reach from the start is 1 range (I think you can get 2 2 range enemies, as opposed to something stupid like 10 1 range enemies), meaning that being able to counter at 1-2 range is even moar important now, especially since those 2 range guys are behind 1 range guys anyway and you need pretty good Move to get to them anyway (which Royals don't exactly have on Turn 1 since they're untransformed).

4-E-2 is not important. Addressed below.

4-E-3 being able to counter on enemy phase is huge since almost no one can one round without RNG (Even Cain needs it against Red Dragons, and against White he's being OHKO'd at scary hit rates... then consider the weaker ones like Nailah and Naesala, who have trouble vs. Red even with an Adept proc). For example, with Alondite, Stefan at base level has 43 Crit and 4HKOs White Dragons, which vs. their 11-12 Luck gives him a 50% chance to kill on a counter, and that's assuming they attack at range and that he doesn't have Adept.

Caineghis does not get OHKO'd, unless you think White Dragons have 96 atk.

4-E-4, meh, Spirits are jokes, the only ones that are even a passing concern are the ones on the +15 Defense Cover. Stefan being able to counter at 1-2 range is much more useful here.

Yes, spirits are jokes, but the objective of the map is to clear Sephiran and not the spirits.

4-E-5, only Tibarn and Naesala can double without Nasir. This is important since you have 4 Nihils and 2 Parities, and the Nihils should go to high attack units that need Nasir to double (such as the Lion Royals and Nailah). Parity means that Stefan can attack Cover Auras (ignoring the +10 Def and Leadership is like giving him +10 Str and +5 Skl, practically dual Blood Tide right there only without positioning issues).

Doesn't this mean that Tibarn and Naesala should get the Parities? Because the both of them in tandem KO an aura per turn, and the cover auras can be easily wiped out in 2-3 turns with heron invigoration. So, Stefan is at the back of the queue for getting anything; his advantage here is probably just being able to finish auras from 2 range with Alondite.

Ike can't kill the BK in 2 turns even if he's painfully overleveled. Here, look at some fun scenarios

I actually killed the BK in 2 turns with an above average 20/10 Ike, so...

The BK will always attack Ike from 1 range, by the way. Interestingly, if Ike has 36 or 37 strength, he can end the chapter on turn 1 by equipping the Hammer and hitting "wait."

And if you're concerned about the Wishblade, you can get that in 1 turn too, by using Purge and Meteor/Blizzard with your two forced magic users and refreshing one of them with your heron.

4-E-3, you have to kill a bunch of Red Dragons on Wardwood tiles (have fun) while making sure the dragons from the sides and behind don't overwhelm you. I realize most people don't play on Hard because they feel pigeonholed into using certain units due to a lack of EXP, but can you at least make an effort to pretend that you know what you're talking about?

I cleared this chapter in 2 turns on Hard. It basically involves clearing the 4 dragons near the starting position, running away from the ones on the bottom, and killing the middle red dragon blocking the way to Dheginsea (not difficult with blessed Purge and Meteor). Then you're free to attack Dheginsea, who is easily killed in 1 turn with help from Ena and, of course, the laguz royals.

Now, there isn't enough BEXP or stat boosters to warrant that kind of abuse on the royals, so we'll have to clear out the dragons. Now, I can see 8 Dragons that are an immediate threat to Ike and Rafiel, both of which I like to think are pretty important for the next 2 maps. Additionally, there are a couple of near our starting position, as well as about 10 more behind Dheg that could also pose a threat or just get in the way and be annoying. Additionally, since we're bumrushing up the middle, we run into the issue of Dheg's AoE attack gibbing people, which is a huge issue since we're playing like a 6 year old and putting people into range of about 20 dragons when even units like Cain are being 3HKO'd by White (4HKO'd on Wardwood) and 8HKO'd by Red.

So what, do I need to record my strategy? There are 4 dragons that are an immediate threat (cleared on the first turn) and 2 more white dragons beneath the wall of red dragons in the center. The dragons on the bottom are not a threat and can be ignored (i.e. run away). Rafiel or Reyson transform on the first turn. Second turn, shove Ena to the point where she can position herself to give Blood Tide bonuses to attackers and use laguz royals.

By the way, dragons will never attack the heron.

4-E-4, if you kill the outside spirits, the ones on the diamond around Sephiran will move to take their place, and they're a pain to kill (35+ Defense, 30 Spd, 40HP). Additionally, the starting guys that move can gang up and kill someone or just get in the way.

Shove/kill the outside spirits and Sephiran can probably be killed in 1 round with Parity, or 2 rounds at most.

They're shorter than other chapters, but I think you've been watching too many Prog speedruns if you really think that the average team can 2-3 turn these chapters.

I've seen none of his speedruns, and the "average team," if it includes 4 laguz royals and Giffca, easily 2-turns those chapters. I find these chapters exceedingly difficult without being able to clear them instantly (i.e. once upon a time I didn't bring the laguz royals and really wished I did).

Protip: We don't rush chapters because we aren't Prog and don't have a week to spend RNG abusing every other turn, plus this is HM so Battle Saves don't exist. We kill Dragons because they're dangerous and 3HKO Tibarn and the last thing I want is 10 of those things running around after me while I try to kill their 100HP/75 Atk/50 Defense king, not because they're EXP pinatas.

I did not RNG abuse, I did not use battle saves on HM (lol), and I didn't have to kill more than 7 dragons on the way to Dheginsea.

By the way I can't really counter or address any of your comments about Stefan and how impressive he is other than by saying "we're clearing every chapter except 4-E-1 in 2 turns." I don't disagree with Stefan getting a 4-E spot, but the only considerable part of the chapter is 4-E-1. Basically, Stefan gets 1 map in which his performance means something, which is not all that different from Eddie or Lucia.

Edited June 20, 2009 by dondon151

[Vykan12]

To change the topic, I think we need to move the hawks up. As interceptor showed, Zihark is kinda overrated, and i don't really believe that he and nolan are that far above Mia.

I used Mia on HM this time, gave her an Ike Earth support and a forged steel. She basically 2 rounds everything she faces, sometimes even 4HKOing (ie adept alone won't get the KO), and the GMs start godmoding around 3-5/3-7. Zihark, on the other hand, is already godmoding when he shows up (almost ORKOes enemies with a wind edge) and on a team with relatively less powerhouse units.

The only part where Zihark really suffers is in 3-6, but I managed to beat that chapter in 12 turns on my first try despite him getting 2HKOed by tigers, and he and Volug were only at B level. It's possible to corner your units such that Sothe and Zihark can only be attacked by 1 enemy, which leaves beastfoe Volug to take on the rest of the enemies on that turn. Though, if Zihark is at high biorhythm, he has >150 avo with resolve active, so having him attack with a better weapon (brave sword, killing edge, silver blade, etc) will still guarantee his survival.

Okay, but now we're taking resolve away from the GMs. However, who is really going to make use of it there? Mia faces single digit display hits with her Ike support, Haar/Gatrie/Shinon/hawks/etc have too much concrete durability to have any pressing need for it, which really just leaves Titania (her durability is pretty meh). Putting resolve into the DB allows an extra unit or two to be raised, while easily not doing such a thing for the GMs.

In 3-12, Zihark A Volug is practically guaranteed to have happened by now, and enemy hit rates are considerably lower here, so he's basically invincible. Tbh he's a lot like Mia in this chapter, 2 rounding everything while never dying due to h4x avo, but you have less of a supply of good units to draw from (Tauroneo, Volug, Nolan, Aran) than the GMs do, so he's still ahead.

In 3-13, Zihark now has a tempest blade, which means he can get 1 player phase kill per turn rather easily while never facing a single enemy. Not much else to say there.

All that can easily get Zihark to lv --/15/0 (9 levels in 3 chapters), and now he has 3 stats capped (spd, skl, res), so BEXPing him to promotion has him performing very close to Mia in part 4. Both are STILL 2 rounding everything, and thus rely on crit/mastery to kill things, and they are tied in that respect.

Being way better in part 1 + about on par in part 3 + slightly behind in part 4 > having a decent part 3 and slightly better part 4.

[Zkirsche]

Okay, but now we're taking resolve away from the GMs. However, who is really going to make use of it there? Mia faces single digit display hits with her Ike support, Haar/Gatrie/Shinon/hawks/etc have too much concrete durability to have any pressing need for it, which really just leaves Titania (her durability is pretty meh). Putting resolve into the DB allows an extra unit or two to be raised, while easily not doing such a thing for the GMs.

Haar and Mordy don't double without it, though. There's more to resolve than just Avo boosting. Shinon can also benefit on the enemy phrase with teh crit. It makes his enemy phrase that much better.

[Vykan12]

Haar and Mordy don't double without it, though.

For Haar, a speedwing + promotion alone already has him at 24 spd, and that's if he didn't gain any spd in 9 level-ups. He shouldn't have any trouble doubling for most of the game.

I suppose Mordy is a legitimate point.

There's more to resolve than just Avo boosting. Shinon can also benefit on the enemy phrase with teh crit. It makes his enemy phrase that much better.

Why would you give resolve to someone who's capped at attacking once per turn, no less someone as durable as Shinon? That seems like a complete waste.

[Florete]

Because that speedwing couldn't just go to anyone else, rite. Of course we're going to give it to Ike because this one battle is all so important, moreso than the rest of the game

It's funny how you always accuse others of not reading your posts when it appears you didn't even read what you quoted here. And are you really going to counter it with simply "anyone can get it"? Everyone knows that, Captain Obvious, but the point is what it can possibly do for a character.

Yes, because somehow Ike will be able to cap his level off 4 consecutive times, which means we have to control how much exp Ike is actually getting in these chapters, which really sucks for us since Ike is one of our best fighters and limiting his exposure to attacks just makes us go slower. And then even after that you have to pray that he gets +spd in the whole ordeal, so basically you MIGHT get an extra 1 spd (since leveling up normally would give him ~1.5 spd) after all that crap.

You're making this sound worse than it really is. Ike's experience gain isn't so high that we now have to dump him for half a map, we just have to use him conservatively, and the returns are worth it because all we're getting is a better Ike and more experience for our other guys.

And even in the worst case scenario based on the method I just proposed (since we shouldn't assume Ike gets any Resistance over Speed) he'll end up with 28 Speed at 20/0, which is +1.85 to his average, and with a little luck he'll be at 29. That's essentially a +2-3 boost just for being a clever player.

btw, killing off the BK before levail means you don't get the wishblade, so we don't want to be blazing through the chapter anyway.

Or you can get the Wishblade on turn 1, something that I do every game with long range tomes. But that's only if you bring an Archsage.

I like how you don't even respond to half my post, which is actually the more significant part

And transfers has and will always be a ridiculous argument. yes, I'm going to play ~30 chapters of a completely different game just to have a chance of getting +2 to a couple of stats for specific units. It can't even be for all the characters in PoR because you simply don't have the resources to get them to 20/20, so simply choosing transfers for certain units and not others is already favoritism. and then if your chosen characters get RNG screwed and don't cap you just wasted a fuckload of time.

I like how part of a sentence is apparently half your post, but that's beside the point.

Why did I not respond to that. I figured it was fairly obvious when I said I use transfer. It's because I do play ~30 chapters of a completely different game for boosts to some stats. Why, you might ask? Well, I wouldn't even bring up transfers if we had to play Okami to get them, but since the game in question is something 75% of the people posting in this thread actively debate on anyway (and I assume they've played), I don't see the big issue.

and btw, it's still a mere chance to cap something. So if your Ike got RNG screwed and didn't cap speed you just wasted a fuckload of time for no result.

Everything in this game is chance. Now show me a PoR endgame file with 12 characters at 20/20, no capped stats, and no stat boosters or no stats close enough for them to matter after the person was consistently using bands and the Knight Ward. I'll say to whoever did it "Tough luck. That sucks."

And it's not like I'm relying on transfers anyway. I'm merely mentioning them as a side note, like "Oh, and if a transfer occurs, he can do this, too," just like people do with stat boosters. I'm not saying "Well, with a transfer, this guy goes up three tiers, so let's do that." They're like a tie-breaker if anything.