OMG it's a tier list

[dondon151]

...damn, I just remembered that my post about why ike doesn't need att (because it's not helping him) got deleted when the server crashed and shit.

Then what the hell does Ike want? Ike doesn't need anything; he gives bonuses out. IkexMia gives Mia 2 atk, 8 hit, and 23 avo. Ike does want avo a little bit to make him more invincible than he already is. Give Daunt to either one of them and they will be literally invincible.

And that's beside the point anyway, since this is boyd somehow getting the ike support, and I simply pointed out that boyd and mia had the same affinity, and ike doesn't care who he's supporting.

If Ike doesn't care who he's supporting, then why can't he get a Boyd support?

I wonder if I should point out that it's impossible for both Jill and Zihark to get an earth support if Volug is out of the picture.

I don't see how this is relevant, considering we're listing possibilities and it's not assumed that every unit listed will be deployed in 4-E. Obviously this would be a problem if Cynthia listed Haar, Mia, Boyd, Oscar, Ike, Shinon, and Gatrie all with an Ike support, but this is seriously a minor nitpick.

Because we're always going to have 4 units on all sides of Ena, plus we're neglecting the fact that 2-range enemies exist and they'll be able to reach her, nevermind that those 4 units now can't be doing anything else like walling in our heron.

Wait a second, we need to protect Reyson, who has Canto and Celerity? Very few generals in the main stretch have 1-2 range. If you picked Leanne, you're just an idiot, and Rafiel is a contender but honestly if he's vigoring 4 people, those 4 people are going to have wiped the floor by the end of the turn.

Considering that generals only have 6 move, Ena only needs protection on 3 sides. That protection not only benefits Ena, but also everyone protecting her. We can't treat this as if Ena were Rolf or something.

such a genius strategy rite

Yes because you've never tried a strategy before means you can immediately discount its effectiveness

It's not about exp, but rather "WE'RE USING ONE STRATEGY AND ONE STRATEGY ONLY TO BEAT THE GAME, CAUSE IT'S FUN UNDERMINING THE ENTIRE POINT OF A TIER LIST".

WE'RE GONNA BE USING THE EXACT SAME TEAM SO WE CAN BEAT 4-E-2 IN 2 TURNS EVERY SINGLE TIME. THIS DOESN'T COMPLETELY FORCE ME TO USE THE EXACT SAME TEAM EVERY SINGLE PLAYTHROUGH RITE

It's the best and most painless strategy. Since when did the tier list assume that the player is a dumbass?

"Exact same team" doesn't accurately describe the team. The team only needs like 3 of the laguz royals. The rest just need to be able to kill stuff in 4-E-1.

since you're saying she's promoting before 3-10, we only have one crown at the moment, and somehow titania is going to get it?

I'm pointing out the possibility that Titania can use it.

BEXP is retarded too because so many other units can make use of it, and there's so little of it to go around that it'd be favoritism anyway.

Wow OK there's so little BEXP to go around that we can't even give a fraction of it to Titania who needs 400-500 EXP to promote do you realize how ridiculous this sounds

But I suppose when you have a person like dondon who is Sherlock Holmes without the intelligence, the best you can come up with is a non sequitur.

I'm questioning your intelligence because that Sherlock Holmes simile made no sense at all. Or do I say "elementary, my dear smash fanatic" or some shit like that?

also, wtflawl @ beating 4-E-2 in 2 turns. Because somehow Ike is going to use the hammer which magically has 2-range and ike will somehow double without favoritism

I'm just going to say again so no one will ever get it wrong: the BK will not attack Ike from 2 range, ever. Ike 3HKOs the BK on average. That's 2 enemy phase attacks and 1 player phase attack - the BK dies at the end of turn 2. If Ike doubles, it's during player phase of turn 2.

Let me ask you this, and please answer honestly; have you even played hard mode?

I just finished the fucking game on hard mode yesterday.

Or you can get the Wishblade on turn 1, something that I do every game with long range tomes. But that's only if you bring an Archsage.

Not true. The only requisites are having 3 combined uses left of Purge, Meteor, Blizzard, or Bolting and having a live heron. And a Micaiah that can do damage to Levail, but that shouldn't be too hard!

Edited June 20, 2009 by dondon151

[Zkirsche]

Why would you give resolve to someone who's capped at attacking once per turn, no less someone as durable as Shinon? That seems like a complete waste.

I don't know where you got capped at attacking once per turn. His crossbow usage becomes better with better crit.

[Florete]

Not true. The only requisites are having 3 combined uses left of Purge, Meteor, Blizzard, or Bolting and having a live heron. And a Micaiah that can do damage to Levail, but that shouldn't be too hard!

True. I forgot about Sanaki.

[Mekkah]

Too bad Shinon only has one Crossbow to go around until 3-8, which is good for killing like ~20-25 enemies at most (35 uses and doubles, but there's also first-attack crits that OHKO).

[Zkirsche]

Too bad Shinon only has one Crossbow to go around until 3-8, which is good for killing like ~20-25 enemies at most (35 uses and doubles, but there's also first-attack crits that OHKO).

True enougth, but after then, it's use is resumed. Still it's doing more for Shinon than it does if it's kept with the DB.

[-Cynthia-]

Bowguns are buyable from 3-2 on as well, so Shinon won't be completely defenseless.

[Shadow Mir]

Bowguns are buyable from 3-2 on as well, so Shinon won't be completely defenseless.

But Bowguns are weaker than crossbows. (24 mt to Crossbows' 28)

[dondon151]

A 3-4 halberdier takes 9x2 damage from a Crossbow, and a swordmaster takes 12 damage. You can't possibly say with numbers like these that Shinon's enemy phase offense is even good. His crit rates never go above 10 unless he activates his bond with Gatrie, so his one-rounding is not reliable at all (he doesn't even ORKO halbs with a crit, and by 3-5 he doesn't ORKO SMs with a crit either).

If you equip him with Bowgun... lol. 5x2 damage? 2 crits won't be a ORKO.

Edited June 20, 2009 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

24 atk isn't completely useless, but it's down there. Assuming a crit and a hit when doubling in 3-5:

76% to Warriors

53% to Halberdiers

70% to Swordmasters (can't double, so I'm assuming he just crits)

0% to Generals (24-25 def)

61% to Snipers

100% on Sages and Bishops

52% to Paladins

Shinon has 10 innate crit and ~30 skl (45 with Resolve), so we're looking at like ~32% crit with Crossbows anyhow, which isn't looking very good (~50% chance of not critting at all on a double, and I'm not even taking enemy luk into account here).

I think Zihark gets far more out of this than Shinon.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Mekkah

[Vykan12]

Someone remind me again, what is this huge dondon vs smash argument about? Stefan vs Edward?

[-Cynthia-]

Someone remind me again, what is this huge dondon vs smash argument about? Stefan vs Edward?

Yes, basically smash is trying to argue that Stefan being a minor negative during Endgame is better than Edward's positive utility Part 1.

[Vykan12]

What makes you so certain Stefan is being a negative in 4-E?

DB: Zihark, Nolan and Volug are the only ones who stand a chance. The first 2 are probably under-leveled, and Volug is not very good offensively at this point (~45 atk and no mastery).

CRK: Nobody.

GMs: Gatrie, Titania, Oscar, Mordy and Soren all have AS issues one way or another. Janaff and Ulki very likely haven't hit SS strike (they didn't for me, and I use them fairly frequently), so their atk is a bit questionable, and as Paper pointed out, being locked to 1 range isn't cool in 4-E. Boyd and Neph might not be in play, so we're only really guaranteed Shinon for his double bow h4x.

Other: You're only going to need 1 healer for fortify (Micaiah can hammerne it if necessary). Skrimir has AS issues. We'll assume for convenience sake that all 5 royals are in play.

So that's 7 slots used up, meaning Stefan is competing with the likes of Volke and GMs who are mediocre in 4-E for his spot.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Vykan12

[Florete]

True enougth, but after then, it's use is resumed. Still it's doing more for Shinon than it does if it's kept with the DB.

What? The Crossbow is obtained in 3-P from the boss.

What makes you so certain Stefan is being a negative in 4-E?

DB: Zihark, Nolan and Volug are the only ones who stand a chance. The first 2 are probably under-leveled, and Volug is not very good offensively at this point (~45 atk and no mastery).

CRK: Nobody.

GMs: Gatrie, Titania, Oscar, Mordy and Soren all have AS issues one way or another. Janaff and Ulki very likely haven't hit SS strike (they didn't for me, and I use them fairly frequently), so their atk is a bit questionable, and as Paper pointed out, being locked to 1 range isn't cool in 4-E. Boyd and Neph might not be in play, so we're only really guaranteed Shinon for his double bow h4x.

Other: You're only going to need 1 healer for fortify (Micaiah can hammerne it if necessary). Skrimir has AS issues. We'll assume for convenience sake that all 5 royals are in play.

So that's 7 slots used up, meaning Stefan is competing with the likes of Volke and GMs who are mediocre in 4-E for his spot.

DB: What about Jill? If Edward was played, he definitely stands a chance as well.

CRK: I'd say Marcia and maybe Calill are viable candidates.

GMs: Gatrie can take Brave and otherwise won't have many AS issues until 4-E-4. Same with Titania. Boyd and Nephenee might not be in play but can still be perfectly good by now.

Other: Elincia > Stefan.

Who are these 7?

Edited June 21, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Vykan12]

Who are these 7?

5 royals, Shinon and a healer (probably Elincia).

If Edward is in play, he's going to be like 20/20/5 at best going into 4-E.

Edward 20/20/5: 47 hp, 28 str, 35 skl, 34 AS, 28 lck, 22 def, 14 res

Stefan lv --/--/8: 53 hp, 27 str, 37 skl, 36 AS, 20 lck, 21 def, 16 res

Difference is, Edward had to go through major suck just to get on par with Stefan (arguably a bit better with supports, but wtv).

The same applies to every other character you named from the DB and the CRKs. As for Gatrie, a brave lance gives him similar atk to alondite Stefan (46 vs 45) but Stefan now has 1-2 range. Or he can switch to the Vague Katti and win att by 1, and also increase his crit lead for what it's worth. The accuracy disparity between the two is also worth considering (brave lance only has 80 hit to the VK's 95, and Stefan has higher skill).

[Florete]

5 royals, Shinon and a healer (probably Elincia).

If Edward is in play, he's going to be like 20/20/5 at best going into 4-E.

Edward 20/20/5: 47 hp, 28 str, 35 skl, 34 AS, 28 lck, 22 def, 14 res

Stefan lv --/--/8: 53 hp, 27 str, 37 skl, 36 AS, 20 lck, 21 def, 16 res

Difference is, Edward had to go through major suck just to get on par with Stefan (arguably a bit better with supports, but wtv).

Yes, but my point is what Edward is at part 4 if he was played, and he most definitely will be competition in that scenario.

The same applies to every other character you named from the DB and the CRKs. As for Gatrie, a brave lance gives him similar atk to alondite Stefan (46 vs 45) but Stefan now has 1-2 range. Or he can switch to the Vague Katti and win att by 1, and also increase his crit lead for what it's worth. The accuracy disparity between the two is also worth considering (brave lance only has 80 hit to the VK's 95, and Stefan has higher skill).

What about a Brave Axe? And that's only against stuff he doesn't naturally double, like SM's and Snipers that even a Brave could probably ORKO with his awesome Strength. Other stuff like Generals where he can go Hammertime and Dragons where he can go Wyrmslayer while having better durability and still doubling makes him definitely viable.

[Vykan12]

Yes, but my point is what Edward is at part 4 if he was played, and he most definitely will be competition in that scenario.

We're supposed to be comparing Stefan to Edward. If Edward is dropped, he isn't competing with Stefan for a 4-E slot. If he is used, then Stefan wins the comparison anyway for not amassing suck throughout the game.

What about a Brave Axe?

That just means Gatrie wins atk by 0-2, depending on Stefan's weapon. This is a capped str Gatrie btw, so this lead will diminish as Stefan builds levels.

Other stuff like Generals where he can go Hammertime and Dragons where he can go Wyrmslayer while having better durability and still doubling makes him definitely viable.

Having an axe doesn't automatically entitle you to using a hammer. There's only 40 uses to spread out the entire game, 37 if you discount the BK fight. Considering generals are the most durable enemy type in the game, you'll be wanting to use most of them up earlier than 4-E, particularly in some part 3 maps (3-8 is teeming with them).

Both can use the wyrmslayer, but Stefan has a better chance of killing one due to better activation %ages. Crit + astra cancels with luna more or less, but then Stefan has a good shot at one of the 3 adepts.

[Florete]

We're supposed to be comparing Stefan to Edward. If Edward is dropped, he isn't competing with Stefan for a 4-E slot. If he is used, then Stefan wins the comparison anyway for not amassing suck throughout the game.

Wait, is that what this comparison boils down to? I don't even really care if overall Stefan > Edward, just that part 4 Edward is competition for Stefan for Endgame.

That just means Gatrie wins atk by 0-2, depending on Stefan's weapon. This is a capped str Gatrie btw, so this lead will diminish as Stefan builds levels.

Also attacking 4 times on occasion, and likely killing anything else.

Having an axe doesn't automatically entitle you to using a hammer. There's only 40 uses to spread out the entire game, 37 if you discount the BK fight. Considering generals are the most durable enemy type in the game, you'll be wanting to use most of them up earlier than 4-E, particularly in some part 3 maps (3-8 is teeming with them).

Well, Stefan can't even use a Hammer. I can at least throw a Hammer on Gatrie and have him go rape Generals if there's one left. Plus, Hammerne is a possibility if we're really using them that much.

Both can use the wyrmslayer, but Stefan has a better chance of killing one due to better activation %ages. Crit + astra cancels with luna more or less, but then Stefan has a good shot at one of the 3 adepts.

I need to check, but I recall Gatrie being able to ORKO White Dragons, and maybe Red Dragons, without activating anything while equipped with a Wyrmslayer. Actually, probably not Red Dragons, but White ones at least. And he still pulls better durability.

[charmander6000]

Why would Edward gain negatives when he isn't competing for a spot on most of the chapters he's available in? At worst he's neutral on all chapters except for 1-7, 1-8 and 1-E. By part 4 he's pulling his own weight.

[soundecho]

Babying counts as negative utility as well you know, it's not just taking up a slot when someone better can take that slot.

[Jaybee]

I leave for 3 days and the topic gets to 80% of its former self. Nice.

[dondon151]

I personally don't believe that Stefan is a negative in 4-E, just that what he contributes is far less significant that what Eddie does in 1-P through 1-4 and possibly even after.

[charmander6000]

Babying counts as negative utility as well you know, it's not just taking up a slot when someone better can take that slot.

Then don't baby him. Edward is limited of what he can do, which is why he's lower on the tier list but his existance in part 1 (excluding 7,8 and E) and 3 does not slow down the completion of the chapter.

[soundecho]

Then don't baby him. Edward is limited of what he can do, which is why he's lower on the tier list but his existance in part 1 (excluding 7,8 and E) and 3 does not slow down the completion of the chapter.

Fact is the chapters he's useful in, i.e 1-P - 1-5 he's still rather mediocre. And being good in laughably easy chapters doesn't really matter. For him to be useful he has to kill. If Edward kills, he takes up EXP from other units, this applies to every other unit as well but they're not being dropped.

Also his usefulness is really overrated. Hooray for 1-P, the easiest chapter in the game, you can't fail it unless you tried. 1-1 is a giant chokepoint for Nolan and Leonardo/Micaiah. 1-2 All we need to do is get Laura to the arrive square, only thing useful he does is hope for a wrath critical on the enemy phase on the soldier? above the ledge.

He obviously can't go right because his durability and offense fails against those soliders/fighters and you can't take wrath off him e.g you might wrath a soldier for a kill then a fighter comes in to OHKO eddie. Then the rest of the chapter is Sothe.

1-3 he's terribad. If he's attacking an enemy, that means Nolan or Sothe can't attack him. Nolan + range attacker will usually finish someone off whereas Edward + range attacker won't finish them off. Nevermind if he actually tries to kills Laura will have to come over and heal.

1-4 It's chokepoint galore. Sothe is usually going up the top to kill the boss then left to collect beastfoe then back up for the right chest while our main force goes down then right then up to push to the other boss, while we have random scrubs trying to get the master seal + the bottom right chest. Only thing useful he can do is get stuff from chests or the master seal. If we try to have him attack that means usually Nolan/Aran can't chokepoint which is bad. If we let him try and attack from 2-range with a wind edge, his attack is crap which means I'd rather have Leo/Ilyana/Micaiah attack.

1-5 is still the same thing except with ledges, except we want other people who don't have fail attack when using 2 range to man the ledges.

@ people who think Aran's durability is terribad during ch 1-4. If he gains a level during 1-3 which is highly doable and gains a hp, def or speed, he gets 3RKOed ~ 4RKOed and he also loses any chance of getting instablicked as cats 5HKO him.

If he gains one luck, he get's rid of tiger crit rates. At least it's better than lolEddie

Also this reminds me, Leo > Eddie? His part 1 + part 3 wins > Eddie's part 4 win.

Edited June 21, 2009 by soundecho

[dondon151]

If Edward kills, he takes up EXP from other units, this applies to every other unit as well but they're not being dropped.

If I need Eddie to complete a chapter in fewer turns, I won't get my panties in a bunch about that EXP not going to other units.

Also his usefulness is really overrated. Hooray for 1-P, the easiest chapter in the game, you can't fail it unless you tried.

Correction: you can't fail it unless you don't use Eddie.

1-1 is a giant chokepoint for Nolan and Leonardo/Micaiah.

Eddie landing wrath crits or counterattacking on enemy phase (because Leo/Micaiah can't take attacks) lets you go through this chapter faster.

1-2 All we need to do is get Laura to the arrive square, only thing useful he does is hope for a wrath critical on the enemy phase on the soldier? above the ledge.

That's one less dude that Nolan needs to worry about and one less threat that can attack your group.

1-4 It's chokepoint galore. Sothe is usually going up the top to kill the boss then left to collect beastfoe then back up for the right chest while our main force goes down then right then up to push to the other boss, while we have random scrubs trying to get the master seal + the bottom right chest. Only thing useful he can do is get stuff from chests or the master seal. If we try to have him attack that means usually Nolan/Aran can't chokepoint which is bad. If we let him try and attack from 2-range with a wind edge, his attack is crap which means I'd rather have Leo/Ilyana/Micaiah attack.

Eddie chokepointing means more damage than Nolan or Aran because of wrath crits and doubling. Generally he will never face more than one attack at a time, but that's true for everyone except Nolan and Sothe.

Also this reminds me, Leo > Eddie? His part 1 + part 3 wins > Eddie's part 4 win.

Actually I wanted to argue this but it just came down to people denying Leo Beastfoe for his part 3 chapters because "someone else does it better," which I disagree with because Leo with Beastfoe is a 100% safe way to complete 3-6 whereas putting it on anyone else that has passable durability includes a risk of being overwhelmed on enemy phase.

As for part 1, Eddie easily wins through 1-4 probably, then better units come along. The advantage of 2-range for Leo is that he rarely blocks better attackers from doing damage whereas Eddie's opportunity cost of attacking is pretty big. I guess Leo's chip damage is appreciated as well because later on I'm pretty sure Sothe and Volug start missing ORKOs and units like Jill and Nolan never ORKO anything.

[soundecho]

If I need Eddie to complete a chapter in fewer turns, I won't get my panties in a bunch about that EXP not going to other units.

There's also the fact that sometimes benefit later > benefit now, if Eddie takes away exp from my units. He's making them worse for chapter 3-6, 3-12 & 3-13. So not only does those chapters take longer, they are also harder as well.

Eddie landing wrath crits or counterattacking on enemy phase (because Leo/Micaiah can't take attacks) lets you go through this chapter faster.

Oh wow he helps with the first 2 enemies on the right above your starting point. Then Nolan tanks the rest of the way and we have no use for Eddie.

That's one less dude that Nolan needs to worry about and one less threat that can attack your group.

Or I could use Micaiah/Leonardo to block the ledges and then have Nolan work his way to that solider or have Sothe come and kill it.

Eddie chokepointing means more damage than Nolan or Aran because of wrath crits and doubling. Generally he will never face more than one attack at a time, but that's true for everyone except Nolan and Sothe.

Laguz never even come one at a time on this chapter unless your killing the last Laguz but then it doesn't really matter cause I could use ~3 different units to kill that Tiger or something, he also gets 2HKOed on this chapter which means he can't risk a random wrath crit.

Actually I wanted to argue this but it just came down to people denying Leo Beastfoe for his part 3 chapters because "someone else does it better," which I disagree with because Leo with Beastfoe is a 100% safe way to complete 3-6 whereas putting it on anyone else that has passable durability includes a risk of being overwhelmed on enemy phase.

As for part 1, Eddie easily wins through 1-4 probably, then better units come along. The advantage of 2-range for Leo is that he rarely blocks better attackers from doing damage whereas Eddie's opportunity cost of attacking is pretty big. I guess Leo's chip damage is appreciated as well because later on I'm pretty sure Sothe and Volug start missing ORKOs and units like Jill and Nolan never ORKO anything.

Leonardo doesn't really need beastfoe to be good anyway. Leo doubles all the tigers if he speed at 20/1 rounds up and with a A support with someone he does 36 damage out of 48 hp to the low level tigers and 32 out of 52 damage which is very useful, you can also get him easily into Wrath range this chapter (no one wants wrath) and keep him safe.

Also if we're not giving beastfoe to Leo, he can work well with the person who does (Aran/Nolan). They both instablick cats (which improves Aran's durability tremendously so he's not afraid to have beastfoe), and leave Tigers on single digit health leaving Leo to be able to kill them. Eddie has the storm sword but his hit leaves something to be desired. 72 hit (not real cause I don't have the chart, a link please?). Missing twice will ensure the death of Aran/Nolan while Leo obviously won't miss.

Actually Leo wins some of the early game chapters. 1-1 after the first initial enemies to the top right, we're basically just chokepointing. 1-2 he probably wins or something. 1-3 Leo wins cause there's only so many spaces for melee units while plentiful for range units. 1-4 is even more chokepointy and Edward does not want to tank as he is 2HKOed.