OMG it's a tier list

[dondon151]

IMO, Hector should take credit for however many turns he saves in ch11 excluding the ones he saves by killing Wire (maybe even less), and whatever contribution he makes to the exp rank. Giving Hector credit for the Tactics contribution that he makes by killing Wire gives us something similar to what Interceptor just said.

So you agree that chapter 11 qualifies as an extraordinary circumstance. I don't understand, then, how Sothe's contributions qualify as occurring under extraordinary circumstances when he's completely unnecessary towards completing the game (he doesn't even save that many turns per chapter compared to Edward's 1-P).

[-Cynthia-]

Every chapter with Sothe can be completed without him without doing anything too ridiculous. It's slower and more difficult obviously, but you shouldn't have to take more than 15 turns a chapter, or grind characters to level 19 in 1-P or anything. I am also not seeing how it is "extraordinary" circumstances.

[Soren37]

Sorta wondering where FE7 came from. And I still ask my question. What happened to the Mist/Rhys debacle? I remember advocating that Mist(T)>Mist(N)=Rhys(N/T).

Edited December 29, 2010 by Soren37

[grandjackal]

but you shouldn't have to take more than 15 turns a chapter

While I'm not necessarily disagreeing that Sothe mght not have as strong an impact as one might think, but THIS doesn't really help. 15 turns a chapter isn't already ridiculous?

[Narga_Rocks]

While I'm not necessarily disagreeing that Sothe mght not have as strong an impact as one might think, but THIS doesn't really help. 15 turns a chapter isn't already ridiculous?

No, it isn't. Compare to abusing Micaiah's levels enough for her to survive and getting her to 20 before 1-9. Or getting Matthew to level 19 in Lyn mode and giving him the energy ring and then abusing in chapter 11 to make sure he doesn't get killed while mosquito biting the boss to death. Or I suppose having Micaiah and Leo trudge through 1-P taking ~3 turns per enemy. Though the first 2 sound much worse than the third one.

15 turns a chapter doesn't sound all bad now, does it? And we should ask Soul how long it actually takes, though that only works if he makes Sothe do nothing when he plays without him. I suspect at least until 1-4 ends he at least draws a few enemies and weakens or something.

[Anouleth]

Giving Hector credit for the number of turns he "saves" over soloing super-Matt is something so far divorced from 1) the point of tier lists, and 2) any realistic playthrough, that it breaks the Myopia Meter. On a nearsightedness scale from 1 to 10, it is "Mr. Magoo". Not only is it so ludicrous as to make the normally-pointless pastime of tiering seem a noble endeavor by comparison, but it actively undermines the ability to accurately rank units in the first place, earning the dubious honor of being simultaneously absurd and destructive.

But it is accurate. Hector really does save you that many turns. We just agree not to consider it because we don't like the idea of a tier list that puts Hector in automatic top tier. If we so desired it, we could give characters credit for their cutscene actions or items they joined with or anything, there's nothing inherently impossible about that sort of thing, but we don't do it because we don't want a tier list that works that way.

[General Spoon]

But it is accurate. Hector really does save you that many turns. We just agree not to consider it because we don't like the idea of a tier list that puts Hector in automatic top tier. If we so desired it, we could give characters credit for their cutscene actions or items they joined with or anything, there's nothing inherently impossible about that sort of thing, but we don't do it because we don't want a tier list that works that way.

Cutscene actions are inherently different from regular play in that the player has no control over them. Suggesting that we give characters credit for their cutscene actions is similar to suggesting that we give the RNG credit for its rolls and tiering it appropriately.

[Anouleth]

Cutscene actions are inherently different from regular play in that the player has no control over them. Suggesting that we give characters credit for their cutscene actions is similar to suggesting that we give the RNG credit for its rolls and tiering it appropriately.

I do have control over them. I can choose to snub Pelleas and miss his Master Crowns and piles of money and shiny Brave Sword if I want.

[Narga_Rocks]

I do have control over them. I can choose to snub Pelleas and miss his Master Crowns and piles of money and shiny Brave Sword if I want.

And the PRFs. Brave Axe. Sleep Staff. Second Thani. etc, etc, though not all of that is Pelleas (some is).

[Soren37]

Sorta wondering where FE7 came from. And I still ask my question. What happened to the Mist/Rhys debacle? I remember advocating that Mist(T)>Mist(N)=Rhys(N/T).

[dondon151]

I have a feeling that Renning needs to achieve parity with Stefan and Volke.

Stefan will face a warrior at most in 4-3 after he is recruited. Volke, at least, can ORKO Izuka from range, but so can anyone with 41 atk, 29 AS at 2 range (Shinon, Mia, Nolan are likely candidates). So Volke isn't completely useless in 4-5.

In 4-E, all that matters is clearing 4-E-1 as quickly as possible. 4-E-3 and 4-E-4 are 1 turned with royals and Rafiel. 4-E-5 is 2 turned. Renning has forged Hand Axes, 9 move, canto, and Hammer to his credit. All he needs is 30 AS to double all but the fastest sword generals on the map. He can get this by BEXP levels or by BEXPing to 99 EXP and then getting Blossom for 4-E-1. Spd is tied for his 4th highest growth, so he's probably not getting the point from BEXP levels (although if you have enough, you can BEXP him to 20 where he'll likely cap his str, skl, and def by 19, making spd tied for his highest growth). He has a 64% chance of proccing spd with Blossom.

Where this probably has the most impact is against Lekain, Hetzel, and the cover generals. Renning has more than enough atk to cleanly 2HKO all cover generals with a Hammer. Canto is icing on the cake for getting into Rafiel's Vigor configurations.

[Florete]

So have our tier lists finally gone to "Always using the best team" territory? Don't take this the wrong way; I am simply asking.

[Zkirsche]

So have our tier lists finally gone to "Always using the best team" territory? Don't take this the wrong way; I am simply asking.

Well, if it revives discussion, I'm all for it.

[Narga_Rocks]

So have our tier lists finally gone to "Always using the best team" territory? Don't take this the wrong way; I am simply asking.

I don't really want to. I've said before if they want a max efficiency list to make their own topic. I fear this one would perhaps fall into complete disuse but I'd still rather not act like you have one set team and we are only judging contributions to the playthrough of that one team.

[Zkirsche]

Would it really change the list that much, though? We'd just think of those who aren't the top 10 units or something as negative utility and rank that utility compared to each other. What assuming the top 10 units does, however, is prevent arguments like "we might not be using Muarim so Mordy can use the demi band" (I know that's FE9, but still...). Getting rid of the %age error, IMO, is good.

[Junkhead]

Lol, guys. Quit ignoring Soren, please. Is it so hard to say something like "We'll attend to that matter later"?

[Zkirsche]

@Soren: I don't really approve of Rhys = Mist, but I believe they all need to drop as I find that I almost never use any healers in part 3 at all.

I have a feeling that Renning needs to achieve parity with Stefan and Volke.

Stefan will face a warrior at most in 4-3 after he is recruited. Volke, at least, can ORKO Izuka from range, but so can anyone with 41 atk, 29 AS at 2 range (Shinon, Mia, Nolan are likely candidates). So Volke isn't completely useless in 4-5.

In 4-E, all that matters is clearing 4-E-1 as quickly as possible. 4-E-3 and 4-E-4 are 1 turned with royals and Rafiel. 4-E-5 is 2 turned. Renning has forged Hand Axes, 9 move, canto, and Hammer to his credit. All he needs is 30 AS to double all but the fastest sword generals on the map. He can get this by BEXP levels or by BEXPing to 99 EXP and then getting Blossom for 4-E-1. Spd is tied for his 4th highest growth, so he's probably not getting the point from BEXP levels (although if you have enough, you can BEXP him to 20 where he'll likely cap his str, skl, and def by 19, making spd tied for his highest growth). He has a 64% chance of proccing spd with Blossom.

Where this probably has the most impact is against Lekain, Hetzel, and the cover generals. Renning has more than enough atk to cleanly 2HKO all cover generals with a Hammer. Canto is icing on the cake for getting into Rafiel's Vigor configurations.

Thing is, we might already have plenty of hammer users (Ike, Nolan and Jill are all aceptable endgame units IIRC) and the royals. Fielding Renning has little to no bonuses outside of a 0% growths run as there are much better beorc out there, and plenty of them, to boot, and I'm willing to bet money that he doesn't actually save any turns. So we waste an endgame unit slot for nothing.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Kevin

[RNG Princess]

Well a good thing about Renning is that he can use both Wyrmslayer and Hammer, and I think paragon might be a good thing on him plus he can use Alondite or Vague Katti. However I think the problem might be that if he caps speed his 33 speed cap might get in the way.

Also about Mist = Rhys debate, theyre actually not. I see it like Laura and Micaiah, Laura is a better choice in part 1 because it doesn't hurt her but when Micaiah auto-promotes after Part 1 she's probably beating Laura and by endgame she automatically beats Laura.

Similar case for Rhys and Mist. Rhys's magic beats Mists so his physic range is beating hers but its not like she can't use physic, I assume mends are bought on 3-2 so their magic isn't really much of a gap. With a little bit of effort Mist can grow to level 10 to use her own crown when she gets it. This is why theyre different Rhys doesn't care about leveling up and Mist does, and if Mist does get there to use her own crown she can be useful for the rescue staff tricks in endgame because of mobility. Rhys is effort-free useful and Mist needs a little bit of effort to beat him but even without effort the mend staves balance her healing performance with his, physic staves is where their early differences are noticeable. IMO Rhys =/= Mist.

Also I wanted to add I think Laura should drop a bit, at least below Jill.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[dondon151]

Thing is, we might already have plenty of hammer users (Ike, Nolan and Jill are all aceptable endgame units IIRC) and the royals. Fielding Renning has little to no bonuses outside of a 0% growths run as there are much better beorc out there, and plenty of them, to boot, and I'm willing to bet money that he doesn't actually save any turns. So we waste an endgame unit slot for nothing.

It's not just a Hammer user. It's a mounted, 9 move Hammer user with canto. A key to getting a 2 turn clear on 4-E-1 is to kill the Sleep bishop at the north end of the map. So you'd need to go straight up the middle and have Rafiel Vigor you once.

Well a good thing about Renning is that he can use both Wyrmslayer and Hammer, and I think paragon might be a good thing on him plus he can use Alondite or Vague Katti. However I think the problem might be that if he caps speed his 33 speed cap might get in the way.

I'll quote Weapons when I say that a 34 spd cap is overrated. It's only important for 4-E-5. And you can 2 turn easily with a team of royals and Rafiel.

[Interceptor]

So have our tier lists finally gone to "Always using the best team" territory? Don't take this the wrong way; I am simply asking.

Not this one. Someone can make their own thread if they want a boring tier list like that. See you in March.

I'll quote Weapons when I say that a 34 spd cap is overrated. It's only important for 4-E-5. And you can 2 turn easily with a team of royals and Rafiel.

I got a nice chuckle from this one. In order for a 34 SPD cap to be over-rated, you have to take the entire history of this game's discussion, and compare it against a narrow slice of more recent playthrough, i.e. a blitz-fest with no regard for anything except low-turning. Hardly anyone is barking about 34 SPD in Endgame these days. By those standards, Eddie is "over-rated", too.

Happy New Year, whenever you happen to arrive in 2011.

[Anouleth]

I've always felt this way about Renning, to be honest, and it's nice to see someone agree with me.

Thing is, we might already have plenty of hammer users (Ike, Nolan and Jill are all aceptable endgame units IIRC) and the royals. Fielding Renning has little to no bonuses outside of a 0% growths run as there are much better beorc out there, and plenty of them, to boot, and I'm willing to bet money that he doesn't actually save any turns. So we waste an endgame unit slot for nothing.

You can hem and haw about letting Renning use the Hammer all you want, but I think it's ridiculous. We don't question letting Haar or Titania use the Hammer when it saves us turns in Part 3, why should we in Part 4, when we have all the Hammers and Hammerne as well if necessary?

You can also bet whatever the hell you want that he doesn't 'actually' save any turns, but if 1-rounding Generals with 9 move and canto is not saving turns, then where does that leave Stefan and Volke? Are they saving us turns?

Finally, Renning genuinely needs the Hammer to do this. Ike, Nolan and Jill can all 1-round Generals without the aid of Hammers. 56/57 attack is needed, something they can all reach with a +atk support (assumed for Ike) or some bexp on Nolan and Jill. And if they can't do it without the Hammer, then your point about there being better beorc out there goes down in flames if Renning is performing on par with High Tier units.

[Colonel M]

I just follow the flow. <_<

[Florete]

You can hem and haw about letting Renning use the Hammer all you want, but I think it's ridiculous. We don't question letting Haar or Titania use the Hammer when it saves us turns in Part 3, why should we in Part 4, when we have all the Hammers and Hammerne as well if necessary?

You can also bet whatever the hell you want that he doesn't 'actually' save any turns, but if 1-rounding Generals with 9 move and canto is not saving turns, then where does that leave Stefan and Volke? Are they saving us turns?

Finally, Renning genuinely needs the Hammer to do this. Ike, Nolan and Jill can all 1-round Generals without the aid of Hammers. 56/57 attack is needed, something they can all reach with a +atk support (assumed for Ike) or some bexp on Nolan and Jill. And if they can't do it without the Hammer, then your point about there being better beorc out there goes down in flames if Renning is performing on par with High Tier units.

I don't think the point is whether or not he should get it, but what it's actually worth given the multitude of other choices for the job. Also, I believe the argument was about cover Generals, so that last paragraph is off target.

[dondon151]

I got a nice chuckle from this one. In order for a 34 SPD cap to be over-rated, you have to take the entire history of this game's discussion, and compare it against a narrow slice of more recent playthrough, i.e. a blitz-fest with no regard for anything except low-turning. Hardly anyone is barking about 34 SPD in Endgame these days. By those standards, Eddie is "over-rated", too.

Happy New Year, whenever you happen to arrive in 2011.

So what do you make of Queen Elincia saying "if he caps speed his 33 speed cap might get in the way," or Ninji saying "Trueblades are the second best endgame class, losing out to Marksmen just because of the double bow," or RF saying "Dragonlord (F) and Silver Knight (F) (both of them) are easily better than Trueblabe and Marksmen for having more move and Canto on top of good SS weapons (more so in the Silver Knights case)?" Does Queen Elincia simply not like numbers divisible by 11? Did Ninji and RF conveniently forget that other beorc classes exist?

Thing is, we might already have plenty of hammer users (Ike, Nolan and Jill are all aceptable endgame units IIRC) and the royals. Fielding Renning has little to no bonuses outside of a 0% growths run as there are much better beorc out there, and plenty of them, to boot, and I'm willing to bet money that he doesn't actually save any turns. So we waste an endgame unit slot for nothing.

Yeah, Renning doesn't save any turns if he's the 17th unit on a team of 17. You can bet your ass that Ike, Jill, or Haar don't save any turns either if any of them are the 17th unit on a team of 17.

And you know what? The cool thing about Renning is that he can assassinate Hetzel from 2 range with a forged Hand Axe and Parity, canto back into a 4 unit vigor formation, kill a cover general with Hammer, and then move into a position to kill the 3 other cover generals on enemy phase. Nolan and Ike can't do that.

Edited January 4, 2011 by dondon151

[RNG Princess]

Renning's 33 speed cap does get in the way of not doubling 30AS spirits though, thats where both Volke and Stefan beat him. Although Renning has better move, canto, hammer, wyrmslayer, and maybe brave axe.

I'd say he's a good substitute character ^_^.

Edited January 4, 2011 by Queen_Elincia