OMG it's a tier list

[Zkirsche]

Haar with a brave axe + atk support = 51 Atk. That's very good.

As for Gatrie, a brave lance gives him similar atk to alondite Stefan (46 vs 45)

Gatrie atk with a brave axe is 36 + 11 = 47. Not 46.

Also this reminds me, Leo > Eddie? His part 1 + part 3 wins > Eddie's part 4 win

Part 1 wins? What part 1 wins? For one thing, Leo is worse than Edward on 1-4:

Level 8/0 Leo with a steel bow, 'C' Edward: 19 HP, 21 Atk, 11 AS, 122 Hit, 31 Avo, 7 Def

Level 8/0 Edward with a wind edge 'C' Leo: 22 HP, 16 Atk, 13 AS, 101 Hit 36 Avo, 7 Def

6x Tiger lvl 6: HP 41, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 125, Avo 31, DEF 10

3x Cat lvl 5: HP 34, Atk 18, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 34, DEF 8

2x Cat lvl 6: HP 35, Atk 18, AS 14, Hit 128, Avo 34, DEF 8

1x Pain lvl 6: HP 43, Atk 26, AS 10, Hit 132, Avo 30, DEF 12

If Leo is the slightest bit strength or speed screwed (65.37%) then he gets doubles and ORKO'ed by the cats. As you can see, it's highly probable that these 12/17 enemies ORKO Leo. None of these enemies ORKO Edward. Then, consider that Edward can dodge and you can see that he's much more durable. 1-2 range? Worthless - Edward can attack a tiger, get healed, then be attacked.

Offensively, they tie offence in the case which Leo is speed or strength screwed, but Edward just wins for actually having an enemy phrase. Heck, he might win damage output agaisnt the tigers if he's slightly strength or speed blessed (47.52% of speed blessed, 47.52% of strength blessed.) As he'll double them, making up for hit inferier hit.

Then you have to consider that Edward can hold a chokepoint. Unlike Leo.

So Edward > Leo on one of the hardest chapters in part 1.

Skip ahead to 1-7:

Level 13/0 Edward with a steel sword, 'B' Leo: 27 HP, 23 Atk, 17 AS, 131 Hit, 46.5 Avo, 10 Def

Level 13/0 Leo with a steel bow, 'B' Edward: 22 HP, 23 Atk, 13 AS, 129 Hit, 38 Avo, 10 Def

4x Soldier Steel Lance: HP 29, Atk 24, AS 14, Hit 114, Avo 36, DEF 12

2x Archer lvl 16 Steel Bow: HP 28, Atk 26, AS 16, Hit 121, Avo 41, DEF 11

2x Armor Lance lvl 15 Steel Lance: HP 33, Atk 26, AS 13, Hit 117, Avo 37, DEF 16

2x Fighter lvl 16 Hand Axe: HP 32, Atk 27, AS 15, Hit 106, Avo 38, DEF 11

Durably, Edward has more HP and avoid than Leo. Edward wins.

Leo doesn't double. Edward does. Edward wins.

OHKO'ing a few pegasus in 1-6-1 =/= better in part 1.

[dondon151]

There's also the fact that sometimes benefit later > benefit now, if Eddie takes away exp from my units. He's making them worse for chapter 3-6, 3-12 & 3-13. So not only does those chapters take longer, they are also harder as well.

Eddie makes other units marginally worse for later chapters (to the point where it doesn't matter) all for the sake of completing the current chapter a couple of turns faster. I say that's a positive trade-off. I don't want to wait around having Nolan kill everything with his non-doubling ass.

Oh wow he helps with the first 2 enemies on the right above your starting point. Then Nolan tanks the rest of the way and we have no use for Eddie.

Positive utility, bro.

Or I could use Micaiah/Leonardo to block the ledges and then have Nolan work his way to that solider or have Sothe come and kill it.

You mean you'd rather have Nolan solo the first half of the map (which he has trouble surviving because his durability is not that good) instead of having Eddie take care of the only threat coming from the top while Nolan doesn't have to solo the first half of the map because Micaiah and Leo are free to do damage.

Laguz never even come one at a time on this chapter unless your killing the last Laguz but then it doesn't really matter cause I could use ~3 different units to kill that Tiger or something, he also gets 2HKOed on this chapter which means he can't risk a random wrath crit.

Hint: go left.

[Dat Nick]

Just going to address this: 5 and 8 avo leads are rather minimal, but I don't disagree with the rest of it.

EDT: wait. I do. If Leo doesn't get screwed then he's only getting one rounded by the tigers, and Leo's damage output for 1-4 is also pretty significantly higher due to his higher ATK and neither doubling. This means like, 3RKOing the cats as opposed to Ed 5-6RKOing them [too lazy to check exactly but it's pretty lol compared to Leo] then we factor in that Leo doesn't eat a counter, and while Edward doesn't get ORKOd by any of these guys, I'll be damned if he actually wants to eat an attack from them since it's still going to damn near kill him.

I have nothing to say in Leo's defense for 1-7, though.

Edited June 21, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[-Cynthia-]

Remember that was for 1-2 range. If Eddie switches to steel/a forge, he's winning by a fair margin, or he's tied, depends on levels.

As for doubling, Eddie doubles the low end Tigers at level 7, which is very reasonable at this point, he doubles the high end tigers at 10, which is also reasonable.

Edited June 21, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

Remember that was for 1-2 range. If Eddie switches to steel/a forge, he's winning by a fair margin, or he's tied, depends on levels.

He's also getting weighed down. Steel has 11 wt.

[dondon151]

Part 1 wins? What part 1 wins? For one thing, Leo is worse than Edward on 1-4:

Level 8/0 Leo with a steel bow, 'C' Edward: 19 HP, 21 Atk, 11 AS, 122 Hit, 31 Avo, 7 Def

Level 8/0 Edward with a wind edge 'C' Leo: 22 HP, 16 Atk, 13 AS, 101 Hit 36 Avo, 7 Def

If Leo is the slightest bit strength or speed screwed (65.37%) then he gets doubles and ORKO'ed by the cats. As you can see, it's highly probable that these 12/17 enemies ORKO Leo. None of these enemies ORKO Edward. Then, consider that Edward can dodge and you can see that he's much more durable. 1-2 range? Worthless - Edward can attack a tiger, get healed, then be attacked.

None of this addresses Eddie's opportunity cost of attacking at 1 range, but I don't disagree that he wins through 1-4, so I'll leave it at that. If anyone is seriously considering Leo to hold a chokepoint, I suggest he get his brain checked.

Skip ahead to 1-7:

Level 13/0 Edward with a steel sword, 'B' Leo: 27 HP, 23 Atk, 17 AS, 131 Hit, 46.5 Avo, 10 Def

Level 13/0 Leo with a steel bow, 'B' Edward: 22 HP, 23 Atk, 13 AS, 129 Hit, 38 Avo, 10 Def

4x Soldier Steel Lance: HP 29, Atk 24, AS 14, Hit 114, Avo 36, DEF 12

2x Archer lvl 16 Steel Bow: HP 28, Atk 26, AS 16, Hit 121, Avo 41, DEF 11

2x Armor Lance lvl 15 Steel Lance: HP 33, Atk 26, AS 13, Hit 117, Avo 37, DEF 16

2x Fighter lvl 16 Hand Axe: HP 32, Atk 27, AS 15, Hit 106, Avo 38, DEF 11

Durably, Edward has more HP and avoid than Leo. Edward wins.

Leo doesn't double. Edward does. Edward wins.

Since when does 17 AS double 14, 15, or 16 AS? I'll give that Eddie actually has a chance at doubling them, except by attacking up close Eddie pretty much gives up enemy phase. If Eddie doesn't double, his damage output is not good, and he prevents Nolan, Sothe, Zihark, Volug, or Jill from attacking the same enemy at 1 range using a decent weapon. Furthermore, Leo chipping the soldier or the fighter lets someone like a --/2 Sothe score the KO with an Iron Dagger or a forged Iron Knife.

The other problem now is that Eddie is 2RKO'd by all of those enemies, except none of them put him into Wrath range (30% iirc) after a single round. On the other hand, all of those enemies save the soldiers put Leo into Wrath range after a round of combat, so I suppose Leo can run around blicking stuff on player phase over 50% of the time.

[Zkirsche]

None of this addresses Eddie's opportunity cost of attacking at 1 range, but I don't disagree that he wins through 1-4, so I'll leave it at that. If anyone is seriously considering Leo to hold a chokepoint, I suggest he get his brain checked.

I said that he attacked at 1-2 range, not 1.

The fact that Eddie can hold a chokepoint makes him better than Leo.

Since when does 17 AS double 14, 15, or 16 AS? I'll give that Eddie actually has a chance at doubling them, except by attacking up close Eddie pretty much gives up enemy phase. If Eddie doesn't double, his damage output is not good, and he prevents Nolan, Sothe, Zihark, Volug, or Jill from attacking the same enemy at 1 range using a decent weapon. Furthermore, Leo chipping the soldier or the fighter lets someone like a --/2 Sothe score the KO with an Iron Dagger or a forged Iron Knife.

He doesn't double those enemies, yes, but he does double some. Examples:

1x Fighter lvl 15 Hand Axe: AS 13

2x Fire Mage lvl 16 Elfire: AS 13

So yeah, he doubles more.

If leo doesn't double, which is all teh time, his damage output isn't good, and you're stil lforced to give up nolan/Jill/Zihark/Volug/whoever's turn finishing the enemy off. Moreso as Leo is less durable.

The other problem now is that Eddie is 2RKO'd by all of those enemies, except none of them put him into Wrath range (30% iirc) after a single round. On the other hand, all of those enemies save the soldiers put Leo into Wrath range after a round of combat, so I suppose Leo can run around blicking stuff on player phase over 50% of the time.

Shame leo doesn't have the cap for wrath yet.

Whcih brings me to anotehr point: Edward can use cancel better for better durability.

Edited June 21, 2009 by kirsche

[dondon151]

I said that he attacked at 1-2 range, not 1.

I should have also said that Eddie attacking at 2 range results in a massive offensive deficit to Leo, so if we're to give him any hint of offense whatsoever, let's give him the Steel Sword (which still loses by 2 atk).

The fact that Eddie can hold a chokepoint makes him better than Leo.

Of course.

He doesn't double those enemies, yes, but he does double some. Examples:

1x Fighter lvl 15 Hand Axe: AS 13

2x Fire Mage lvl 16 Elfire: AS 13

So yeah, he doubles more.

3 more enemies is not considerable.

If leo doesn't double, which is all teh time, his damage output isn't good, and you're stil lforced to give up nolan/Jill/Zihark/Volug/whoever's turn finishing the enemy off. Moreso as Leo is less durable.

I don't think you understood my point. Eddie attacking prevents one of those units from attacking (because most of them would rather attack at 1 range for more damage). Nolan, Jill, Sothe, and even Zihark have trouble 1RKOing enemies reliably, so Leo puts enemies in KO range. This is without the cost of Leo taking damage himself, so he is not demanding a heal from Laura (who is likely overtaxed at this point anyway), whereas Eddie does need a heal, and he is also taking that away from someone like Nolan/Jill/Zihark/Volug/Sothe.

So, using Eddie requires two opportunity costs if he wants to do any damage whereas using Leo requires none.

Shame leo doesn't have the cap for wrath yet.

Fuck, I can't ever remember that tier 1 units have 10 free skill points instead of 15.

Cancel on Eddie only improves the chances of him not taking an attack on player phase. It doesn't help him at all on enemy phase, where his poor durability really shows. Essentially this means that Eddie has a 17% chance of being like Leo, except taking up a 1 range space instead of a 2 range space.

[Zkirsche]

I should have also said that Eddie attacking at 2 range results in a massive offensive deficit to Leo, so if we're to give him any hint of offense whatsoever, let's give him the Steel Sword (which still loses by 2 atk).

Thing is, leo isn't even likely to use the steel bow due to the chance of him getting spd or strength screwed. In the case of the former, they tier offence at 1-2 range.

3 more enemies is not considerable.

There's many, many more enemies than that. Every mage/knight he doubles and teh occasional non-mage/knight. Leo can't double any of those.

Also, if he doubles, he isn't afraid of using teh wind edge which eliminates the next detriment which you claim Edward posses.

I don't think you understood my point. Eddie attacking prevents one of those units from attacking (because most of them would rather attack at 1 range for more damage). Nolan, Jill, Sothe, and even Zihark have trouble 1RKOing enemies reliably, so Leo puts enemies in KO range. This is without the cost of Leo taking damage himself, so he is not demanding a heal from Laura (who is likely overtaxed at this point anyway), whereas Eddie does need a heal, and he is also taking that away from someone like Nolan/Jill/Zihark/Volug/Sothe.

Thing is, though they deal less damage with ranged weapons, the enemy already has been weakened by Eddies attack, so it doesn't matter.

Leo and Eddie have the same Atk, so how Leo puts an enemy into the KO range and not Eddie, I'll never understand. Then you have to consider that Eddie doubles many more enemies than leo does.

Volug and Sothe are uber durable anyway, even Nolan and Jill can survive easily enougth. So taking a heal is a very small detriment. Then you have to consider that there are units that have 1-2 range by this point.

Fuck, I can't ever remember that tier 1 units have 10 free skill points instead of 15.

It's not that big a mistake to make, shove is a pain now it takes up capacity.

Cancel on Eddie only improves the chances of him not taking an attack on player phase. It doesn't help him at all on enemy phase, where his poor durability really shows. Essentially this means that Eddie has a 17% chance of being like Leo, except taking up a 1 range space instead of a 2 range space.

He doesn't always take up a space, however.

[dondon151]

Thing is, leo isn't even likely to use the steel bow due to the chance of him getting spd or strength screwed. In the case of the former, they tier offence at 1-2 range.

Why won't Leo use the Steel Bow if his stats get screwed? He will never be attacked.

There's many, many more enemies than that. Every mage/knight he doubles and teh occasional non-mage/knight. Leo can't double any of those.

You just listed mages and knights. Unless there are more mages and knights, Eddie's not doubling "many, many more enemies." Mages I'll give you, but those are rare as is and can be ORKO'd without any help by the better members of the team.

Also, if he doubles, he isn't afraid of using teh wind edge which eliminates the next detriment which you claim Edward posses.

Half the enemies that Eddie doubles he can't afford to lose damage against. Using your 1-7 example, Eddie does 7x2 damage with a Steel Sword, which decreases to 4x2 damage with a Wind Edge. If you take away his Leo support (because other people might want it), then it's 3x2.

Thing is, though they deal less damage with ranged weapons, the enemy already has been weakened by Eddies attack, so it doesn't matter.

Leo and Eddie have the same Atk, so how Leo puts an enemy into the KO range and not Eddie, I'll never understand. Then you have to consider that Eddie doubles many more enemies than leo does.

Eddie has to go 1-range to tie atk, but then he eats a counter. If he goes 2-range, he loses atk and damage by 3.

Volug and Sothe are uber durable anyway, even Nolan and Jill can survive easily enougth. So taking a heal is a very small detriment. Then you have to consider that there are units that have 1-2 range by this point.

If you haven't played through HM recently, I suggest you do, because I do not recall at any moment Nolan or Jill being durable. Sothe and Volug's durability begins to drop off later in part 1, and it starts being noticeable by 1-7. Neither of them have very reliable avoid, so they will take hits a lot, and unless you don't mind handicapping Volug's durability, they will all need to be healed.

He doesn't always take up a space, however.

I could try to list a number of hypothetical instances where other 1 range units don't have enough move to attack after Eddie occupies a 1 range space or where 2 or more units need to gang up but realize that Eddie has occupied an attacking space or something. People don't like being stuck to shit like Wind Edges, Iron Knives, or Hand Axes. Let's not forget the number of available chokepoints in maps throughout part 1 where even if Eddie could choke, someone else could do it better because of more damage.

[Jaybee]

The true hit page is somewhere in the General FE section if I'm not wrong.

EDIT: Found it.

http://www.serenesforest.net/general/truehit.html

I see three things in this post: Bullcrap, offense hype, and MAG hype. I wonder what I see the most of...? Like Interceptor said, Mend staves aren't rare, and I say again, Rhys's "better" offense is still lame, and you forget that Rhys has crap for moblilty.

Rhys has 6 move while Mist has 7. Oh noez. If anything, they'll be the ones moving up first to heal your team. Mist also doesn't want to go too far up because she might get feathered. Also, as previously mentioned, Rhys heals way better than Mist. The only thing that Mist really has in her favour is a Spirit Dust, but she doesn't want Boyd. Rhys also heals further with Physic, though that only helps in Part 4.

I realise I took that post from page 29, but w/e.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Joshybear25

[soundecho]

Also why exactly does Edward support Leo? We're not likely to use one sucky unit, much less two. And even if they were both fielded, Leo with his smexy water affinity isn't going to go and pair with Eddie's light affinity, oh wow +1 def and some hit. He has the only attack affinity other than Micaiah who probably has an A with Sothe so he can get some of the better affinities such as Thunder or Earth.

[Zkirsche]

Why won't Leo use the Steel Bow if his stats get screwed? He will never be attacked.

because then he's ORKO'ed by cats and needs even more walling off.

You just listed mages and knights. Unless there are more mages and knights, Eddie's not doubling "many, many more enemies." Mages I'll give you, but those are rare as is and can be ORKO'd without any help by the better members of the team.

Except Leo.

Eddie doubles 17/37 enemies. Leo doubles 0/37 enemies. That's a big difference.

Half the enemies that Eddie doubles he can't afford to lose damage against. Using your 1-7 example, Eddie does 7x2 damage with a Steel Sword, which decreases to 4x2 damage with a Wind Edge. If you take away his Leo support (because other people might want it), then it's 3x2.

And how much does Leo do? 7 damage. so 4*2 actually means Eddie still deals more damage.

Eddie has to go 1-range to tie atk, but then he eats a counter. If he goes 2-range, he loses atk and damage by 3.

Not if he doubles. But i concede the rest.

If you haven't played through HM recently, I suggest you do, because I do not recall at any moment Nolan or Jill being durable. Sothe and Volug's durability begins to drop off later in part 1, and it starts being noticeable by 1-7. Neither of them have very reliable avoid, so they will take hits a lot, and unless you don't mind handicapping Volug's durability, they will all need to be healed.

Volug with his earth support or thunder support has very good avo. Same with Nolan, except he has more def. Jill can use a dracoshield + Seraph robe together.

I could try to list a number of hypothetical instances where other 1 range units don't have enough move to attack after Eddie occupies a 1 range space or where 2 or more units need to gang up but realize that Eddie has occupied an attacking space or something. People don't like being stuck to shit like Wind Edges, Iron Knives, or Hand Axes. Let's not forget the number of available chokepoints in maps throughout part 1 where even if Eddie could choke, someone else could do it better because of more damage.

Those can be forged.

Also why exactly does Edward support Leo? We're not likely to use one sucky unit, much less two. And even if they were both fielded, Leo with his smexy water affinity isn't going to go and pair with Eddie's light affinity, oh wow +1 def and some hit. He has the only attack affinity other than Micaiah who probably has an A with Sothe so he can get some of the better affinities such as Thunder or Earth.

If we're comparing the two, they're going to be used. Then, who actually wants to support these sucky units? Nolan prefers Zihark for Earth x Earth, Volug prefers thunder for durability, so that's Volug x Jill. Aran doesn't want to be pushed up against Eddie, he wanst enemy phrase action.

Thus, Eddie x Leo is likely.

[Vykan12]

Hand axes can't be forged in part 1.

[dondon151]

because then he's ORKO'ed by cats and needs even more walling off.

We're not walling off Leo already? Aside from it not being difficult in this chapter (narrow passageways and few enemies), forcing Leo to take an attack without countering is bad enough already that we're never going to consider Leo getting attacked.

Except Leo.

Pretty sure Nolan and Jill won't have enough AS to double these chumps either.

Eddie doubles 17/37 enemies. Leo doubles 0/37 enemies. That's a big difference.

And how much does Leo do? 7 damage. so 4*2 actually means Eddie still deals more damage.

I don't really have a response to this... Eddie is superior for these enemy types, although for 20/37 enemies he still doesn't double, he loses ranged atk.

Volug with his earth support or thunder support has very good avo. Same with Nolan, except he has more def. Jill can use a dracoshield + Seraph robe together.

The problem with both of these is that they need chapters to build up. NolanxZihark likely isn't getting C until 1-8, then B in 3-6. Before then, Nolan will gladly take Leo for just the bonuses. JillxVolug is also slow and not getting C until 1-8, although neither of them will probably support Leo anyway. The point is, people that join before 1-5 will want to support Leo for early bonuses.

Then come 1-E and Jarod's leadership, avoid boosts are washed away.

By the way, Dracoshield + Seraph Robe is a lot of resources going into Jill. Volug or Nolan might want the Dracoshield (or Sothe or Zihark). If Micaiah isn't getting doubled, Seraph Robe lets her survive a round of combat. Aran, if he's being used, might want it as well to supplement his defense. Generally just the Seraph Robe is enough to get Jill's durability to the point where she isn't always almost dying, though it's far from stellar.

Thus, Eddie x Leo is likely.

Of course it's likely, but let's not forget the alternatives!

[soundecho]

If we're comparing the two, they're going to be used. Then, who actually wants to support these sucky units? Nolan prefers Zihark for Earth x Earth, Volug prefers thunder for durability, so that's Volug x Jill. Aran doesn't want to be pushed up against Eddie, he wanst enemy phrase action.

Thus, Eddie x Leo is likely.

What? That doesn't make sense at all. Just because they're both being compared doesn't mean they're both being used at once. It's like comparing Lyre and Kyza, the notion at both of them being fielded at once is laughable.

Nolan, Zihark and Jill aren't always in play, if that happens he would gladly take a support with them. What at Aran/Edward comment o.O

That still doesn't change my initial statement. The chance that we'd field one sucky unit is bad, moreso for 2 sucky units.

[Jaybee]

I had a Lethe vs Kyza thing where I argued that Lethe > Kyza because of Part 2 usage and double Part 3 suckiness, but it got refuted back. We always need to assume that both units are in play during this sort of thing, though it would make more sense if we took it as though we were playing normally.

[dondon151]

Having the two units support each other, though, usually defeats the point of a support comparison unless each had no better options.

[soundecho]

Units being compared will be assumed to be in play. But at the same time? Again higher people on the tier list will have a better chance of being played than those lower on the list.

So Eddie/Leo themselves have a really low chance to be played, but since we're comparing them they'll be in play. But in play at the same time? Not really.

Though it's clear that Leonardo could get a better support than Eddie.

[charmander6000]

Except that there aren't any characters that want Water over their other support. Nolan, Zihark, Jill and Volug would be hard to argue for, Sothe already has A Micaiah and the extra defense isn't worth restarting a support, Micaiah doesn't double thus wouldn't make much use with 1 extra attack, Laura doesn't attack and will still gain massive damage when attacked, Aran is a possibility for 1 extra defence though never doubling without bexp makes the +2 attack worth less on Aran than Edward. Meg and Fiona would love Water, but since this entire arguement is based around using two worthless characters those two are out.

The only character that may want to trade based on your arguement is Aran and even he wants some extra hit at the beginning since he misses a lot before his skill kicks in.

[Interceptor]

WTF@ this thread on the weekends, it moves too fast to keep up with. I'll just respond to one post, because this subject really pisses me off:

I used Mia on HM this time, gave her an Ike Earth support and a forged steel. She basically 2 rounds everything she faces, sometimes even 4HKOing (ie adept alone won't get the KO), and the GMs start godmoding around 3-5/3-7.

She doesn't "basically two-round". What is with the goddamned Mia sandbagging that happens in this thread? I mean, seriously? Does NOBODY ever take her doubling/crits and possible Adept usage into account? For christ's sake, if Mia is 3-4HKO on something and has nothing but a plain Steel Blade, she's already something like 18-19% ORKO owing to nothing more than her base unmodified crit. You don't even need to DO anything special to get this level of performance except replace her weapon with a noobshit generic Blade.

If you give her a critforge, this figure jumps to like 44%. FORTY-FOUR PERCENT. If I gave a non-doubler like Titania the same forge, PLUS gave her Adept (which Mia does not have in this example), she STILL loses offense to Mia, since she's only eking out a ~30% ORKO.

So lets throw in Adept, eh? Adept only increases her ORKO reach when it's a 3HKO, but most enemies are 3HKO for her, and regardless an Adept still increases the chance of a crit. Against the same 3HKO target, Mia with a critforge and Adept is now looking at a.... 70% chance to ORKO. SEVENTY PERCENT. Even when taking into account the opportunity cost of giving her this skill (aka, what everyone ele could do with it), she's beating most of them for effectiveness by more than a factor of 2.

Again, I call bullshit at this "basically two-round" crap. Also WTF@ the GMs in 3-5/3-7: not unless they double, kiddo. Ike, sure. Gatrie, probably, with a crown. Titania? Still not doubling. Shinon? Still doesn't counter. Oscar? Tier 2 SPD cap, mt problems. Are we gonna throw lolcat Ranulf in here?

Zihark, on the other hand, is already godmoding when he shows up (almost ORKOes enemies with a wind edge) and on a team with relatively less powerhouse units.

Your bar for "god mode" is set too low if you include Zihark in that calculation. There are only three units in Part 1 who are truly "god-moding", and they are:

1) Tauroneo

2) Nailah

3) Beyonce Knowles

There is no #4. Sure, Zihark has excellent offense in Part 1 owing to an Adept that nobody else really can use, his innate crit, forges, access to special weapons, and also his high AS, but he does not have the durability.

His durability in Part 1 is average, somewhat above average at best. Sure, he handily beats the likes of frontliners like Meg, Fiona, and Eddie, but his leads over them only matter when those units are deployed. It is his real peers -- Sothe, Nolan, Volug, Jill, Aran, Tormod, Vika, and Maurim -- that his durabilility is most often set up against.

Some of those units he beats until Part 3, some he ties (even if only at points), some he only loses conditionally, etc. The point is, if Zihark is a God unit, he's amongst other God units and several Jesus-class units as well. It seems, to this soldier, that Z's durability isn't special when it's not unique. And all of them are getting curb-stomped by the trifecta above.

The only part where Zihark really suffers is in 3-6, but I managed to beat that chapter in 12 turns on my first try despite him getting 2HKOed by tigers, and he and Volug were only at B level. It's possible to corner your units such that Sothe and Zihark can only be attacked by 1 enemy, which leaves beastfoe Volug to take on the rest of the enemies on that turn. Though, if Zihark is at high biorhythm, he has >150 avo with resolve active, so having him attack with a better weapon (brave sword, killing edge, silver blade, etc) will still guarantee his survival.

The point is not that Zihark dies, although that's obviously an issue. The point is that Zihark getting 2HKO'ed changes your playstyle to account for it, aka what you just posted above. The GMs lose Resolve, you have to position your units precisely to protect Zihark, and you have to put a limiter on his offense.

Okay, but now we're taking resolve away from the GMs. However, who is really going to make use of it there? Mia faces single digit display hits with her Ike support, Haar/Gatrie/Shinon/hawks/etc have too much concrete durability to have any pressing need for it, which really just leaves Titania (her durability is pretty meh). Putting resolve into the DB allows an extra unit or two to be raised, while easily not doing such a thing for the GMs.

The GMs would have it for 9 chapters to the DBs 3-4. Logic suggests that you'd need to get 2-3 times the per-chapter usefulness when used in the DB, otherwise it's a net loss. This seems unlikely to me, especially when used on Zihark.

As was mentioned, Mia is basically invincible with Resolve. Not fake invincible: she has higher SPD/LCK than Z does, plus the benefit of authority stars and having her best support partner being a Top tier force-deployed unit with matches mobility with her. Nephenee is also a good choice: she is Mia Lite, but has Wrath to make up for not actually being invincible (does not have the SPD or the support to get there without Daunt). Other units include anyone who isn't doubling. Mordecai is the most obvious one, and was already mentioned, but Titania or Oscar also would qualify.

Basically, there are a lot of units in the GMs where Resolve can actually be applied closer to its maximum power. Zihark's usage of it is comparatively short, and comes with caveats. Also, it makes no difference in efficiency, since all of the DB chapters other than 1-E have no turn limits.

In 3-12, Zihark A Volug is practically guaranteed to have happened by now, and enemy hit rates are considerably lower here, so he's basically invincible. Tbh he's a lot like Mia in this chapter, 2 rounding everything while never dying due to h4x avo, but you have less of a supply of good units to draw from (Tauroneo, Volug, Nolan, Aran) than the GMs do, so he's still ahead.

There are only two positions on the entire level where you actually would have to battle an enemy unit in melee combat. Three, if you're a Nervous Nelly and don't want anyone to face more than one person at a time. The ledges can be blocked by nearly anyone. You have fewer good units here than the GMs, and Zihark is definitely doing way better now that he's facing tier 2 beorcs, but you don't actually need more units than what you already have.

In 3-13, Zihark now has a tempest blade, which means he can get 1 player phase kill per turn rather easily while never facing a single enemy. Not much else to say there.

There is more to say here, like "Zihark is now doing approximately as well as Eddie", since Ed can also make potshots from behind walls. Never mind that nothing about 3-13 actually requires you to kill anything but hawks, so Zihark's "kills" are completely self-serving.

All that can easily get Zihark to lv --/15/0 (9 levels in 3 chapters), and now he has 3 stats capped (spd, skl, res), so BEXPing him to promotion has him performing very close to Mia in part 4. Both are STILL 2 rounding everything, and thus rely on crit/mastery to kill things, and they are tied in that respect.

Except that Mia didn't just take a shitload of BEXP to fix her STR and get to promotion. Take away the BEXP, and now Zihark doesn't have Astra, and his STR might be far enough behind to matter. And he loses crit in real terms, as well.

Being way better in part 1 + about on par in part 3 + slightly behind in part 4 > having a decent part 3 and slightly better part 4.

If only the units you just compared actually fit into that bucket. For you to call Zihark "god-moding" in Part 1, and then turn around and call Mia "decent" in Part 3, is for you to use two different measuring sticks for these units. In order for this to reflect a real situation, you'd have to send BK/Nailah/Tauroneo on a vacation and sandbag Mia's Part 3 offense/durability by not giving her anything.

Never mind that there are other mitigating factors, like how Mia has more chapters in-game than Zihark does unless he defects, which would suggest that she'd win even if they tied.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Interceptor

[Colonel M]

ITT I barely get how Mia / Zihark hype works. =/

*Sigh*.

One minute it's "Zihark pwns face in Part 1 and is more necessary" and the other is "Mia with tons of shit > Zihark with tons of shit".

Don't take it the wrong way, but it gives me major headaches when I walk in here.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Colonel M

[Interceptor]

It's the mode. Mia doesn't really have a case for being better than Zihark when we're talking about Normal Mode, because of things like:

1) Z doesn't get two-shotted in Part 3.

2) EXP gain is so high in NM that Zihark has a realistic chance of getting to promo by Part 4 (EDIT: this ia important because Mia's martial ceiling comes at around Trueblade 13 -- the levels after that don't do much for her).

3) Mia's offense is not special since basically everyone is doubling in the GMs. Even Soren is a good unit in NM.

4) Nephinel curbstomps her.

Come Hard mode though, Z is getting blasted in Part 3, it's really hard to promote, and the GMs really get soaked in terms of their offense since it's suddenly difficult for people to double (whereas Mia still doubles everything in the game). Also, there is not enough BEXP to make Nephenee into a murder machine in Part 2, so that's one less unit that Mia has to compete with.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Interceptor

[charmander6000]

I may use a bunch of characters, but I don't see how Zihark can promote by part 4 in normal mode unless you give him paragon in part 3. He usually promotes mid-way through the first chapter of part 4 while the other DB members promote at the end of the first or beginning of the second chapter.

[Interceptor]

Yeah, I was assuming that he gets Paragon for at least one of the EXP-heavy chapters, aka in 3-6 or 3-13. His durability is good enough that he can get away with it. Also, BEXP is easier to justify in Normal Mode, since it's twice as effective and twice as plentiful as it is in HM.