OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

Regular Jill, unfortunately, just has the problem of her bases being barely too low. 1 more Spd would be enough to double a lot of enemies but she doesn't grow that fast. Her base Def is pretty good but her HP sucks. Str base sucks, too, but that can be partially alleviated with a mostly non-competed Energy Drop. And if she gets a Robe and Drop you're looking at a somewhat heavy cost despite high return. And then you don't even have her for 1-8, so after 1-6 she loses 2 Move until part 3.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

She can also hold her own against Jarod and because she ties with Volug and Nailah for Move, she's pretty invaluable for 1-E. Even if she ferries Micky to the seize point.

[Interceptor]

Oscar(T) might be slightly underrated.

Agreed, Shinon is over-rated.

There's no 'might' about it. Oscar (T) has always been far too low and should be near the top of High tier. For example, what does Mia have against him in early Part 3? She's better against Generals and Swordmasters. Oscar wins mostly everything else, as well as movement on top of that. What does she have against him in late Part 3? She doesn't take a Crown and is still better against SMs and Generals, he still wins everything else. Mia wins Part 4, certainly, but Oscar is definitely better in Part 3, which is the lion's share of their lifespan (and Oscar (T) is okay in Part 4 as well if you can get him to double). Oscar (T) should either be just above Mia or just below her.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Mia is also better against Dracos, and Oscar is in a bind if he whiffs SPD on a level-up (because 23 is not enough, and he does not level quickly), but his transfer STR and a forged lance are sufficient to paper over his 35% STR growth for a while, in terms of ORKOs on things like Halbs/Warriors/etc.

70 displayed hit is enough when she's getting 4x attacks. 20/7 Jill isn't impossible near the end of 3-6. She should be 20/4 anyway by the end of Part 1.

If the best I could get for Jill by the end of 3-6 was 20/7, I'd be hitting the reset button.

Regular Jill, unfortunately, just has the problem of her bases being barely too low. 1 more Spd would be enough to double a lot of enemies but she doesn't grow that fast. Her base Def is pretty good but her HP sucks. Str base sucks, too, but that can be partially alleviated with a mostly non-competed Energy Drop. And if she gets a Robe and Drop you're looking at a somewhat heavy cost despite high return. And then you don't even have her for 1-8, so after 1-6 she loses 2 Move until part 3.

Don't agree that it's a very large cost to give her those boosters. We have two robes for the DB, and Titania the GMs don't even want one of those, since they get their own. I'd even extend to her the Dracoshield, since it makes leveling up in 3-6 even easier, and she's unlikely to waste the boost even over the course of her career (doesn't cap it naturally, most times).

[Junkhead]

Regular Jill, unfortunately, just has the problem of her bases being barely too low. 1 more Spd would be enough to double a lot of enemies but she doesn't grow that fast. Her base Def is pretty good but her HP sucks. Str base sucks, too, but that can be partially alleviated with a mostly non-competed Energy Drop. And if she gets a Robe and Drop you're looking at a somewhat heavy cost despite high return. And then you don't even have her for 1-8, so after 1-6 she loses 2 Move until part 3.

Why is the cost heavy if it actually pays out? Not to mention she only competes for the drop against Volug and maybe Nolan. There are two Robes, so one could easily go for her, and another for Nolan.

[Florete]

There's no 'might' about it. Oscar (T) has always been far too low and should be near the top of High tier.

I don't disagree, but has anyone actually seriously argued him to High before?

She can also hold her own against Jarod and because she ties with Volug and Nailah for Move, she's pretty invaluable for 1-E. Even if she ferries Micky to the seize point.

??????

First off, if she's not promoted, her base Move is only 8. Second, she gets -2, as I just previously pointed out. She'd need Celerity to tie them.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Mia is also better against Dracos, and Oscar is in a bind if he whiffs SPD on a level-up (because 23 is not enough, and he does not level quickly), but his transfer STR and a forged lance are sufficient to paper over his 35% STR growth for a while, in terms of ORKOs on things like Halbs/Warriors/etc.

That Spd is the one thing I think may keep him below Mia.

If the best I could get for Jill by the end of 3-6 was 20/7, I'd be hitting the reset button.

Are you saying she should be higher by the end of 3-7? That seems pretty high to me.

Don't agree that it's a very large cost to give her those boosters. We have two robes for the DB, and Titania the GMs don't even want one of those, since they get their own. I'd even extend to her the Dracoshield, since it makes leveling up in 3-6 even easier, and she's unlikely to waste the boost even over the course of her career (doesn't cap it naturally, most times).

Why is the cost heavy if it actually pays out? Not to mention she only competes for the drop against Volug and maybe Nolan. There are two Robes, so one could easily go for her, and another for Nolan.

Well, I guess the cost really depends on how well others use the boosts. The Robe probably has little to no cost, but the Drop and Shield, much less both together, are likely more contested.

[Interceptor]

Are you saying she should be higher by the end of 3-7? That seems pretty high to me.

I got her to 20/17 in a 13-turn clear, so either I am Fire Emblem Jesus or expectations for Jill's potential are probably too low. She deserves Paragon, since she can maximize Enemy Phase exposure due to flight + canto, and she snowballs like a boss once she gets a few levels under her belt.

Well, I guess the cost really depends on how well others use the boosts. The Robe probably has little to no cost, but the Drop and Shield, much less both together, are likely more contested.

I don't think that I would hit Jill with all three, but these things depend on level-ups, both for her and for the people she's with. Nolan and/or Volug being present and used seriously can change the calculus. It is not easy to be specific about this.

[Anouleth]

No, I mean Jill is better than Gatrie because she flies, has better Mov and doesn't take to much time to raise to become decent.

So? What does she contribute? There's killing pegasi in 1-6-1. There's the Tauroneo drop in 1-6-2. There's various rescuing and dropping duties in 1-E. There's being a generally awesome character in 3-12 and 3-13. There's being a great character in Part 4. You could say any of these things. Don't just say 'Jill flies', because I can say 'Tanith flies' or 'Nealuchi flies' just as easily.

She can also hold her own against Jarod and because she ties with Volug and Nailah for Move, she's pretty invaluable for 1-E. Even if she ferries Micky to the seize point.

Actually, Jill has 7 move in 1-E. 6 if she's still unpromoted.

Nor can she 'hold her own against Jarod', as you assert. A 20/1 Jill with a steel forged axe does 14/39 damage to Jarod at ~85 display hit. That's about a 4HKO with throne healing taken into account. Jarod 3HKOes her in return.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Mia is also better against Dracos, and Oscar is in a bind if he whiffs SPD on a level-up (because 23 is not enough, and he does not level quickly), but his transfer STR and a forged lance are sufficient to paper over his 35% STR growth for a while, in terms of ORKOs on things like Halbs/Warriors/etc.

It's worth noting that Oscar starts with capped skill and can cap HP immediately with a Seraph Robe (which also helps address durability concerns). This means he can BEXP in his first level up to ensure Speed caps, and then work on his Strength and Defense with BEXP until a Crown is available.

I don't disagree, but has anyone actually seriously argued him to High before?

I mentioned it a few pages ago.

[Interceptor]

It's worth noting that Oscar starts with capped skill and can cap HP immediately with a Seraph Robe (which also helps address durability concerns). This means he can BEXP in his first level up to ensure Speed caps, and then work on his Strength and Defense with BEXP until a Crown is available.

In what universe does having six uncapped stats (STR, MAG, SPD, LCK, DEF, RES) ensure that SPD goes up with BEXP? Never mind that doing this in the first place weakens Titania, who also wants the Robe (and the BEXP) for durability and BEXP abuse.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Interceptor

[aku chi]

Well, I guess the cost really depends on how well others use the boosts. The Robe probably has little to no cost, but the Drop and Shield, much less both together, are likely more contested.

Agreed. Volug can make great use of the Energy Drop (+6 damage per round in part 1, +8 damage per round in parts 3 and 4). Nolan and Volug both benefit from the Dracoshield, and for longer than Jill (especially in Nolan's case). The Seraph Robe isn't costless either: Aran (if used) and Nolan would certainly appreciate it.

[Anouleth]

In what universe does having six uncapped stats (STR, MAG, SPD, LCK, DEF, RES) ensure that SPD goes up with BEXP?

In the universe where speed is his highest remaining growth? While using BEXP in that situation doesn't 'ensure' it and that word is probably a bit strong, it certainly gives him a very good chance.

Never mind that doing this in the first place weakens Titania, who also wants the Robe (and the BEXP) for durability and BEXP abuse.

True, but Titania can also take a Dracoshield, and you have up to three Seraph Robes anyway to distribute. In addition, when she has access to a fast Oscar support, Titania is less worried about her durability.

Plus, Titania has generally fewer durability concerns than Oscar in the first place. She also has fewer levels with which to make use of BEXP. So I think that Oscar is overall, a better Robe user than her.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Anouleth

[Interceptor]

In the universe where speed is his highest remaining growth? While using BEXP in that situation doesn't 'ensure' it and that word is probably a bit strong, it certainly gives him a very good chance.

A very good chance, but it's not guaranteed. A small chance is significant when the results would be substantial, like with player chance of death percentages: missing SPD for Oscar kneecaps a a large portion of his offense, since he can no longer reliably double/ORKO 20AS units.

True, but Titania can also take a Dracoshield, and you have up to three Seraph Robes anyway to distribute. In addition, when she has access to a fast Oscar support, Titania is less worried about her durability.

Plus, Titania has generally fewer durability concerns than Oscar in the first place. She also has fewer levels with which to make use of BEXP. So I think that Oscar is overall, a better Robe user than her.

It doesn't matter which one of them is better for the Robe, what matters is that using one denies you the benefits of the other. Whatever you think of Stat Queen Titania (robe, draco, talisman, speedwing), pinching a Robe from there reduces her performance by that much. And Titania, lest anyone forget, does not fall off a cliff in Part 4, as she's more than just a horse and a pretty face, what with her higher SPD cap and access to Axes. So there's a long-term consideration as well.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Interceptor

[Florete]

I got her to 20/17 in a 13-turn clear, so either I am Fire Emblem Jesus or expectations for Jill's potential are probably too low. She deserves Paragon, since she can maximize Enemy Phase exposure due to flight + canto, and she snowballs like a boss once she gets a few levels under her belt.

Uh, wow, I guess. I just did 3-6 last night on Normal, Paragon on 20/4 Jill going in, and after feeding her as many transformed kills as possible (because they get more experience) she came out at ~20/14. I had Ed and Nolan on the right and they got some kills, plus Volug, Sothe, and Micaiah all got a handful of kills, but given the circumstances I'd say 20/17 at the end of 3-6 for Jill in HM is way too high. I didn't even get that in my HM draft (20/12 from 20/3) where Jill pretty much had to take all the kills because the rest of my team was Sothe (but no transfer), Micaiah, and Laura, and Jill still had Paragon. And it was still 13 turns.

I don't know about Fire Emblem Jesus, but experience-maximizing Jesus? Very likely.

In the universe where speed is his highest remaining growth? While using BEXP in that situation doesn't 'ensure' it and that word is probably a bit strong, it certainly gives him a very good chance.

Spd is always his highest growth, though. Unless it's capped.

[Anouleth]

Spd is always his highest growth, though. Unless it's capped.

Actually, Skill is higher, at 65% against 60% Speed.

[Interceptor]

Uh, wow, I guess. I just did 3-6 last night on Normal, Paragon on 20/4 Jill going in, and after feeding her as many transformed kills as possible (because they get more experience) she came out at ~20/14. I had Ed and Nolan on the right and they got some kills, plus Volug, Sothe, and Micaiah all got a handful of kills, but given the circumstances I'd say 20/17 at the end of 3-6 for Jill in HM is way too high. I didn't even get that in my HM draft (20/12 from 20/3) where Jill pretty much had to take all the kills because the rest of my team was Sothe (but no transfer), Micaiah, and Laura, and Jill still had Paragon. And it was still 13 turns.

The trick, such that there is one, is to not try to feed her kills to the point where she starts missing out on normal non-fatal combat. It's not good to have a Turn cycle where Jill only gets one shot of EXP. Those laguz need to be milked for all the combat EXP that they are worth before they die.

In my best run, I sent Nolan north (he can beast everything by himself), and had Jill man the east with everyone else. The scrub patrol -- aka people like Sothe/Volug/Micaiah/Zihark -- weakened laguz for Jill to zoom in and finish off. While they did that, I had Jill sit in the water with a decent weapon, calculating enemy range and damage such that she'd face as much Enemy Phase activity as she was capable of surviving. Initially this is only one or two units, but as she levels up she can potentially tank 2-3 or more, and start taking her own kills.

End result: Jill goes from 20/1 to 20/17 in the space of 13 turns. It would have been 12 turns, too, except there was one laguz left to kill after Turn 12's Enemy Phase.

[Florete]

Actually, Skill is higher, at 65% against 60% Speed.

...Right.

The trick, such that there is one, is to not try to feed her kills to the point where she starts missing out on normal non-fatal combat. It's not good to have a Turn cycle where Jill only gets one shot of EXP. Those laguz need to be milked for all the combat EXP that they are worth before they die.

In my best run, I sent Nolan north (he can beast everything by himself), and had Jill man the east with everyone else. The scrub patrol -- aka people like Sothe/Volug/Micaiah/Zihark -- weakened laguz for Jill to zoom in and finish off. While they did that, I had Jill sit in the water with a decent weapon, calculating enemy range and damage such that she'd face as much Enemy Phase activity as she was capable of surviving. Initially this is only one or two units, but as she levels up she can potentially tank 2-3 or more, and start taking her own kills.

End result: Jill goes from 20/1 to 20/17 in the space of 13 turns. It would have been 12 turns, too, except there was one laguz left to kill after Turn 12's Enemy Phase.

I didn't just have her steal kills. I just made sure she got a kill every player phase as possible. She got plenty of kills and non-fatal hits on enemy phases as well.

Perhaps next time I'll try harder to funnel kills into one unit and see what happens.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Paragon makes sense, because even in my Easy Mode runs Jill's come out at a max of 20/10 from sitting in the water with her Brave Axe and hacking everything to oblivion.

[Florete]

So, like, what was going on again? I know I could just read recent posts, but I wanted to bump the topic.

[Anouleth]

Oscar (T) is underrated and needs to move up. He's better than Mia initially (better movement, better 1-2 range, more reliable ORKOing against enemy types that he doubles). If he takes a Crown when he caps strength, he extends that lead throughout the rest of Part 3. Mia is better in Part 4, though. Oscar (T) should at least be in the spot below her.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Oscar (T) is underrated and needs to move up. He's better than Mia initially (better movement, better 1-2 range, more reliable ORKOing against enemy types that he doubles). If he takes a Crown when he caps strength, he extends that lead throughout the rest of Part 3. Mia is better in Part 4, though. Oscar (T) should at least be in the spot below her.

I second this.

Also, I'm wondering if maybe Jill (T) > Shinon? Her contributions in Parts 1 and 3 for the DB are very useful, and she has something Shinon lacks: Enemy Phase.

I'd also like to bring up Jill > Gatrie again. I don't see what makes his contributions so much better than Jill's.

And maybe Astrid > Oliver as well. She can chip in her CRK chapters so Geoffrey and Kieran can go in and kill stuff, and she brings Paragon.

Also, Ena. Why is she so high? Her combat is shit and she doesn't do much, even though she's free in Endgame. Not like she can do much more than Sigrun, who doesn't have to rely on transformation gauges.

[Yuglyoshi]

Also, Ena. Why is she so high? Her combat is shit and she doesn't do much, even though she's free in Endgame. Not like she can do much more than Sigrun, who doesn't have to rely on transformation gauges.

Blood Tide helps a lot in clearing 4-E-1, 3 and 5.

[-Cynthia-]

Elincia should move below Jill IMO. Elincia is important for a fast clear of 2-E, Jill is important for a fast clear of 1-6(2). But then Jill gets 1-7, 1-E and all her part 3 chapters before Part 4 comes along and Jill should be beating Elincia combat wise by this point (though Elincia has staves). Just seems to me that Jill's Part 3 should be outweighing Elincia...not being there at all.

Why is Marcia > Kieran(T)?

--/6 Marcia (Iron Greatlance)

35 HP 27 Atk 21 AS 16 Def 15 Res 54.5 Avo

--/11 Kieran(T) (Steel Poleaxe)

41 HP 38 Atk 22 AS 18 Def 11 Res 56 Avo

So that's 6 HP, 9 Atk, 1 AS and 2 Def, which seems to be a pretty big statistical win to me. Marcia has flight, but how useful is this really in the CRK chapters? In 2-3 this seems to be limited to going up and killing the Halberdier holding the Speedwing, but she's 3RKOing at best and can't reliably survive up on the platform herself anyway. She might save us a house in 3-9, but again, her flight can't really save us a lot of turns due to her inability to take on many enemies by herself.

I'll probably make another post involving Tanith moving down too (some higher potential in the long run is probably not worth an entire tier over Sigrun). Haar's flying utility is great because A. He's the only flier and B. He can survive large amounts of enemies and kill many of them in return. Marcia and Tanith can't claim either of these things until after a bunch of levels, and I just don't see where we have the time to pump levels into them. Marcia(T) and Tanith(T) are a bit different since they can claim competent combat heading into 3-11, but standard Marcia and Tanith are pretty sad.

[Anouleth]

Well, in 2-3 she can dispatch the Horseslayer Paladin, a job that needs to be done for efficient completion.

In addition, Marcia also has use due to flight in 3-11 and 4-3. I don't know how much you accept the idea of trying to train her for long-term use, but even untrained she can shift around some foot unit like Gatrie or Nolan.

I find your argument against Tanith a bit lacking. Mainly because you're comparing her to Haar, who is chilling at the top of the tier list. Tanith cannot charge into a group of enemies and kill them all effortlessly like Haar can, but that is not to say she is entirely useless in terms of combat. Yes, she doesn't have great durability. When you have flying and Canto in 4-3, you don't need great durability since you can plonk yourself wherever you please. Yes, she will probably need something, whether it's the 3-9 Speedwing, or a Seraph Robe or Secret Book + BEXP or whatever. I cannot see how any of this would put Tanith a tier below Soren, given that she does give returns. And yes, being able to be a serious combatant does put her a tier above Sigrun.

[Silith]

Speedwing Tanith easily turns into a monster quickly. I would easily place her above Skrimir but not any higher then that. She's fine where she is and the fact everyone seems to be in total love with Skrimir means Tanith probably won't move up.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

The fact is, though, she'd have to leapfrog over Makalov (T) and Kieran (T). Makalov I'd understand, he doesn't do much, but Kieran (T) can do a lot in the CRK chapters.

[aku chi]

Speedwing Tanith easily turns into a monster quickly. I would easily place her above Skrimir but not any higher then that. She's fine where she is and the fact everyone seems to be in total love with Skrimir means Tanith probably won't move up.

Except Speedwing Skrimir is a monster from the get-go, and only gets better from there. He dominates Speedwing Tanith in their shared chapters. And I don't think that Tanith's decent 3-13 and better-than-nothing 3-E performances are going to swing it in her favor.