OMG it's a tier list

[Caliban of Sycorax]

That was not my implication. I was implying that Tauroneo's usefulness was limited to 1-6-2 because after that he doesn't reappear until 3-12 where there will be a few units at his level stat-wise or even better. He's EXTREMELY useful in 1-6-2 because he helps it be an easy completion with Jill rescue-dropping him.

[Zanarkin]

That was not my implication. I was implying that Tauroneo's usefulness was limited to 1-6-2 because after that he doesn't reappear until 3-12 where there will be a few units at his level stat-wise or even better. He's EXTREMELY useful in 1-6-2 because he helps it be an easy completion with Jill rescue-dropping him.

1-6-2 can be 2 turned by sothe too... Adept is likely to activate. Now it might seem like wishful thinking but I did it in my Hard mode draft. Sure he had transfers, but the only one that might have been useful for that part was the 18 defence transfer. (I feel like that sentence has poor structure... Grammar? Wording? Idk..)

Edited May 14, 2011 by Jhen Mohran

[Caliban of Sycorax]

That only serves to weaken the Tauroneo argument. Sothe will still need Jill to rescue-drop him so really it's a matter of who you want to use.

[Florete]

That only serves to weaken the Tauroneo argument. Sothe will still need Jill to rescue-drop him so really it's a matter of who you want to use.

Sothe only needs a Shove. He can reach a Thicket across the River where the boss can hit him from range.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

This is assuming he has a maxed out Iron Knife forge, right? Because IIRC that's the only way he'll make this a two-turn.

[Florete]

This is assuming he has a maxed out Iron Knife forge, right? Because IIRC that's the only way he'll make this a two-turn.

Yes, and there is no problem with that. Plus, given that this list isn't yet max efficiency, it's not really a big deal if we take 3 turns instead of 2.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Okay then.

In that case, Tauroneo is much more useless, so I assume it's safe to argue for a drop. That really was his only chapter to shine. 3-12 is his next deployment and his real use there is standing on the ledge and Short Axe/Javelin-ing the enemies below. But he doesn't double them IIRC and there's Bishops who will Physicspam them. You mostly have to rely on the AI to make sure the Bishops heal first which isn't reliable. Then in 3-13 he tanks, which is fairly useless because that's a quick chapter anyway with Sleep Ike + Rush with strongest units. 4-2 his movement is severely limited with forests and he's going to be stuck with the CRK's at the start while Tibarn flies all over the map and kills stuff. 4-5 the same thing except with swamps.

[Anouleth]

Can Sothe even survive in that position? I remember my Jill(T) (who had comparable, if not better defensive stats) struggling to stay in that position and not die.

[Yuglyoshi]

Can Sothe even survive in that position? I remember my Jill(T) (who had comparable, if not better defensive stats) struggling to stay in that position and not die.

Yeah, I remember Sothe almost dying during my recent Normal Mode draft. The possibility of his death is definitely something to consider, along with adept or crit activation against the boss. That's what makes this particular two-turn strategy pretty risky, and it's why why people are saying it's not a big deal if you have to stretch the map to 3 turns.

I guess if you're REALLY worried about Sothe dying, you could plan to give him the Dracoshield, which isn't exactly a bad idea in the first place.

[grandjackal]

I figured since I was the one who suggested Eddie might be underrated in the first place about a good century ago, I would just like to mention this: In the least, if Eddie doesn't rise, I'm still offended by the fact that Aran is nearly two tiers above the poor guy.

As a basic summary of the argument that was presented some time ago...

-Eddie actually contributes in his early existence of Part 1, Aran does not exist.

-Eddie beats Aran out in his actual joining chapter of 1-4, due to Luck letting him wall without risk, or using potential Wrath-countering to take out occasional single enemies that may move about.

-From there on, neither really contribute over Sothe, Volug, etc. murderfacing the competition, so it's more just self-improvement. This shows that Aran actually contributes 0 in part 1 while Eddie contributes some. In the least though, Eddie can still handle some things with the occasional Wrath-Killer Edge counters, manipulating it easier between Herbs and Vulns, while Aran has 0 way to salvage his offense.

-Part 3 sucks for both, but Eddie can still do the Wrath/Resolve gimmick potentially along with Caladbolg, and aiding Nolan with a defensive-support. Aran's best bet is to try to be someone with actual survivability. This is good for Aran in his own way sure, but considering that at least 2 of the 3 maps are "kill a certain number of enemies" and the other 1 involves assassinating the boss of all bosses, which one you think will come out more useful in the end of completion?

-Part 4 is basically no contest.

I present this because it's good to have a basis to scrutinize for analysis. I would build on these arguments...But I think we know by now I'm not all that good at it. Least I can do is provide bases though.

Also, trying to get back from the whole "max efficiency" thing. I feel like things are fun again.

[Anouleth]

I agree with most of what you're saying GJ. The question is, where should Aran and Edward end up?

-From there on, neither really contribute over Sothe, Volug, etc. murderfacing the competition, so it's more just self-improvement. This shows that Aran actually contributes 0 in part 1 while Eddie contributes some. In the least though, Eddie can still handle some things with the occasional Wrath-Killer Edge counters, manipulating it easier between Herbs and Vulns, while Aran has 0 way to salvage his offense.

The problem is that if Edward's speed doesn't remain on par for doubling, he really stinks. When you kill enemies in three hits and die in two, it's questionable if you can even get self-improvement done.

[grandjackal]

I agree with most of what you're saying GJ. The question is, where should Aran and Edward end up?

Well this is a first. Personally, I'd say something along the lines that Eddie should somewhere along the lines of Kerian/Makalov (T), but if that's not reasonable, then I would accept him being above vanilla Keiran. Aran I would say should just start dropping like a rock, starting with dropping him to above or below Rolf in Lower-Mid. I could see Aran dropping as low as below Lethe or Gareth personally. Kyza? I dunno, might be pushing it.

The problem is that if Edward's speed doesn't remain on par for doubling, he really stinks. When you kill enemies in three hits and die in two, it's questionable if you can even get self-improvement done.

I do believe I got called out for using the same argument, that argument being "well what if he's screwed?". Of course it happens, but the same can in turn happen to Aran. He wants durability for part 3, and for that he also needs the right amount of speed. However, there is a major difference here.

-Losing the ability to double is not quite as bad as becoming doubled. To not double just means you can't be quite as useful as you would normally be. To be doubled means you are all that much easier to kill, which point you stop being useful altogether.

-Eddie's still got Wrath-countering with a Killer Edge to salvage his offense on the occasional stray he could lure in, and Eddie luckily naturally has one and has an easy excuse for the other. To help Aran's durability in the face of getting doubled would either require a stat-booster (a big no-no considering the point is to make Aran not be an utter failure), or some miraculous amount of defense blessage and a support that he takes close to no damage in spite of being doubled. Even then, it's a near impossibility for Aran to recover since this is mostly a problem that would be focused on in part 3, seeing as we got things like 41 might tigers running around, or huge swathes of enemies in 3-12.

-This still does not answer the problem that Aran is the one who starts underperforming, since Eddie beats him out upon his arrival, and Eddie's been doing good beforehand. In the event both are screwed, Eddie's still the one who's made contributions. Even if Aran were neutral, Eddie still contributed without investment due to early existence. Eddie still wins.

Still, I think that "who loses more to rolls of the dice" is a silly argument now I do anyways, but even if we were to go downt hat road, I still feel Aran would be the one in the bigger hole more than anything.

[Anouleth]

Well this is a first. Personally, I'd say something along the lines that Eddie should somewhere along the lines of Kerian/Makalov (T), but if that's not reasonable, then I would accept him being above vanilla Keiran. Aran I would say should just start dropping like a rock, starting with dropping him to above or below Rolf in Lower-Mid. I could see Aran dropping as low as below Lethe or Gareth personally. Kyza? I dunno, might be pushing it.

Below Rolf seems a bit of a stretch. Aran at least has some long-term potential, which is more than can be said for Rolf. (which reminds me I need to make people move Rolf T down)

I do believe I got called out for using the same argument, that argument being "well what if he's screwed?". Of course it happens, but the same can in turn happen to Aran. He wants durability for part 3, and for that he also needs the right amount of speed. However, there is a major difference here.

Aran's 15.55 speed at level 20/1 is generally sufficient to avoid getting doubled by all tigers with some leeway. The chance of him having 14 speed is about 27%, and if that's the case, then a very small minority of Tigers will ORKO him.

Edward's speed is also on shaky ground. For example, to double Chapter 1-5 Fighters, a level 11 Edward has to have about 16 speed, and if he doesn't, he only doubles Mages.

-Losing the ability to double is not quite as bad as becoming doubled. To not double just means you can't be quite as useful as you would normally be. To be doubled means you are all that much easier to kill, which point you stop being useful altogether.

It's not quite that simple. Generally, Aran only having 14AS only puts him at risk from level 17 Tigers who are pretty damn uncommon in Chapter 3-6 (there are only two on the whole map). He's otherwise unaffected. Edward not having enough speed to double cripples his offense and brings it down to the level of Leonardo. Even on his averages, he still fails to double Soldiers and Myrmidons. If Edward is so weak he cannot kill enemies in Part 1, then how can he hope to be good later on in Part 3?

-Eddie's still got Wrath-countering with a Killer Edge to salvage his offense on the occasional stray he could lure in, and Eddie luckily naturally has one and has an easy excuse for the other. To help Aran's durability in the face of getting doubled would either require a stat-booster (a big no-no considering the point is to make Aran not be an utter failure), or some miraculous amount of defense blessage and a support that he takes close to no damage in spite of being doubled. Even then, it's a near impossibility for Aran to recover since this is mostly a problem that would be focused on in part 3, seeing as we got things like 41 might tigers running around, or huge swathes of enemies in 3-12.

Or just arrange matters so that Aran does not face either of the the 18AS Tigers until he procs 15AS.

I'm not really convinced by Wrath-countering with a Killing Edge. A lot of the time, Edward is annoying about 3HKOing with it. For example, let's say Edward is level 15 with 14 strength going into 1-8. He has 22 attack with the Killing Edge, so he doesn't 3HKO Soldiers and obviously not Bandits either. The only enemies he can pick up reliable kills against are the Mages, who are obviously easy pickings for everyone (although Edward does have the notable advantage of being able to ORKO Mages with a ranged weapon). In addition, he's extremely borderline about doubling the Soldiers, since they have 15AS, he only has a 54% chance to proc 19AS. So not only is he 4HKOing, he doesn't double. What's more, they have 25ATK to his 28HP and 9DEF, so while they do 2HKO, they don't leave him on 30% or less HP, so he won't even activate Wrath.

He does get Brave Sword, though, and he can ORKO all non-bandits with it providing he can double the Soldiers. I guess there's that. It lets him avoid counters from mages too.

-This still does not answer the problem that Aran is the one who starts underperforming, since Eddie beats him out upon his arrival,

How? If Edward is not doubling, he is dead weight. Aran kicks his ass in durability, and in damage. The only enemy types that Edward would win on are Cats (due to not facing crit) and Mages (since even screwed, he can usually double them).

and Eddie's been doing good beforehand. In the event both are screwed, Eddie's still the one who's made contributions. Even if Aran were neutral, Eddie still contributed without investment due to early existence. Eddie still wins.

And like I said, even a speed screwed Aran can perform in 3-6, specifically against the 95% of the map that isn't a level 17 Tiger.

Still, I think that "who loses more to rolls of the dice" is a silly argument now I do anyways, but even if we were to go downt hat road, I still feel Aran would be the one in the bigger hole more than anything.

I think it's a very relevant question. If Edward has a ~30% chance of being 'Leonardo with Swords and Wrath' in Part 1, that should be taken into account, since we like to take Aran's ~10% chance of getting critted in 1-4 into account as well.

[Florete]

Can Sothe even survive in that position? I remember my Jill(T) (who had comparable, if not better defensive stats) struggling to stay in that position and not die.

He can die, but from what I recall, his chances of death are fairly low. On my HM draft I reset that map a good number of times and he only tied once or twice.

[grandjackal]

Below Rolf seems a bit of a stretch. Aran at least has some long-term potential, which is more than can be said for Rolf. (which reminds me I need to make people move Rolf T down)

Long term potential doing what? Getting fed a ton of EXP just to be 3HKOd by tigers in 1 chapter isn't what I would deem as long-term potential.

Aran's 15.55 speed at level 20/1 is generally sufficient to avoid getting doubled by all tigers with some leeway. The chance of him having 14 speed is about 27%, and if that's the case, then a very small minority of Tigers will ORKO him.

1. So if Eddie gets screwed, least he can do is attempt Wrathcrits or Resolve to attempt to salvage the situation. While we see here, if Aran gets screwed, he can be capable of being killed on the spot for one slightly sloppy positioning, and generally being Eddie with worse offense, and has 0 way of salvaging the issue.

2. You forgot about any cat not the hilariously weak kind being able to double him with crit, having decent damage still on him, making Aran still more vulnerable than he needs to be just on random chance. In fact, what if he gets Def screwed, since you seem to really want to argue over a game of Yahtzee here? This problem can be only multiplied if he gets Def screwed, as cats would increase his death chance exponentially just cause they have crit on him. Aran's not in danger of just 1 enemy here.

3. How's Eddie in any danger? BEXP would help aleviate the issue if you must. If Aran gets speed screwed on the over.

Edward's speed is also on shaky ground. For example, to double Chapter 1-5 Fighters, a level 11 Edward has to have about 16 speed, and if he doesn't, he only doubles Mages.

Beats Aran doubling nothing and being virtually unshovable. Again though, Wrath-Edge can still circumvent this to an extent, even if not by a lot due to being somewhat luck-dependent (50+Edge Crit and Myrm crit still seems like good odds though).

It's not quite that simple. Generally, Aran only having 14AS only puts him at risk from level 17 Tigers who are pretty damn uncommon in Chapter 3-6 (there are only two on the whole map). He's otherwise unaffected. Edward not having enough speed to double cripples his offense and brings it down to the level of Leonardo. Even on his averages, he still fails to double Soldiers and Myrmidons. If Edward is so weak he cannot kill enemies in Part 1, then how can he hope to be good later on in Part 3?

Or just arrange matters so that Aran does not face either of the the 18AS Tigers until he procs 15AS.

Better yet, I'll just have Eddie Wrath/Resolve it as to remove the threat entirely. Can Aran do this to...any enemy?

I'm not really convinced by Wrath-countering with a Killing Edge. A lot of the time, Edward is annoying about 3HKOing with it. For example, let's say Edward is level 15 with 14 strength going into 1-8. He has 22 attack with the Killing Edge, so he doesn't 3HKO Soldiers and obviously not Bandits either. The only enemies he can pick up reliable kills against are the Mages, who are obviously easy pickings for everyone (although Edward does have the notable advantage of being able to ORKO Mages with a ranged weapon). In addition, he's extremely borderline about doubling the Soldiers, since they have 15AS, he only has a 54% chance to proc 19AS. So not only is he 4HKOing, he doesn't double. What's more, they have 25ATK to his 28HP and 9DEF, so while they do 2HKO, they don't leave him on 30% or less HP, so he won't even activate Wrath.

In defense, 1-8 is a weird-ass chapter where enemies get this ridiculous spike, and this is admittedly a bad chapter for Eddie. But at least you point out the mage wins for me. Sure, anyone can do it...Except Aran, so Eddie still wins this chapter just on the basis he has at least 1 reason to get in this map, since Aran again just does less.

He does get Brave Sword, though, and he can ORKO all non-bandits with it providing he can double the Soldiers. I guess there's that. It lets him avoid counters from mages too.

Thanks for helping my argument?

How? If Edward is not doubling, he is dead weight. Aran kicks his ass in durability, and in damage. The only enemy types that Edward would win on are Cats (due to not facing crit) and Mages (since even screwed, he can usually double them).

I would not call being 3RKOd commonly that big a durability lead, and you again ignore that Eddie can just use Resolve (which even at 16 speed if we wanna talk super-screwed, Resolve will still double all but the faster cats), and even in the case that neither are doubling, I would not call Aran's damage lead to be super significant, considering he's not outright killing, and thus is just slightly above Eddie in being middle of the pack. Even then, you still admit Eddie's got something even if screwed.

Secondly, when I say early on, I don'tmean "Part 3". I mean that whole fact that Eddie's at least been doing things since his start, while Aran starts as dead weight, and pretty much stays this way unless we're going to take the ridiculous argument of "Well, I didn't win at the slot machines with Eddie!".

And like I said, even a speed screwed Aran can perform in 3-6, specifically against the 95% of the map that isn't a level 17 Tiger.

Yet you ignore the fact it makes him more vulnerable to some cat crits, since at 14 speed he's now doubled by more of them. Some of them can ORKO with a crit, and it only increases his chance of death, defeating the entire purpose of raising him.

I think it's a very relevant question. If Edward has a ~30% chance of being 'Leonardo with Swords and Wrath' in Part 1, that should be taken into account, since we like to take Aran's ~10% chance of getting critted in 1-4 into account as well.

This is why this argument is insanity, for plenty of reasons.

A. You are basically forcing the argument down a cliff, since anyone can be screwed in several ways, and you didn't even account things on Aran's side, such as Luck screwage increasing his chance of death even more, Defense screwage allowing him to be OHKOd more often by crts and generally fail at what he's supposed to be, being a high defensive tank.

B. You are basically saying we should bring probability tables to every argument now, barring units that are basically stat-gods.

C. What if Eddie gets blessed? Yeah, what if he caps speed early, or gets a bit more strength to easier Wrathkill things? I can pump BEXP into him with less guilt, I can even promote him early and entirely remove the purpose of Zihark existing, since I can have Resolve on Eddie all the faster, or perhaps bump him up all the easier with Paragon in Part 1. If it can go both ways, then it's ridiculous to claim that someone should be punished because "bad luck exists", since good luck exists as well, and it turns into a circular argument that will never end, and will never be productive.

Now is there anything you'd like to bring up about Aran that actually has reason to it, or we just gonna sit here and pretend like Aran's immune to bad luck because "Speed doesn't effect him for like 1 chapter, dude", since it totally ignores how balls Aran is in Part 4 no matter how you split it?

Edited May 15, 2011 by Grandjackal

[aku chi]

Thanks for helping my argument?

Maybe Anouleth is attempting to establish facts and make an objective comparison as opposed to making an irate 1-sided argument.

[Zkirsche]

GJ, you've gone from over-hyping to over-hating.

Getting fed a ton of EXP just to be 3HKOd by tigers in 1 chapter isn't what I would deem as long-term potential.

Eddie needs more exp just to do worse in that very same chapter.

1. So if Eddie gets screwed, least he can do is attempt Wrathcrits or Resolve to attempt to salvage the situation.

Eddie gets resolve? Might as well give Aran a speedwing.

How's Eddie in any danger?

I must have forgot when Eddie had Haar like durability. Last time I checked, most enemies 2RKO'ed him with 135 hit vs ~60 (with bexp) avo. Aka 75 displayed, aka 87.75% true. Even with resolve, enemies still have like ~55% displayed, which isn't exactly reliable at half health.

Beats Aran doubling nothing and being virtually unshovable

Why do we care about shoving in part 3/trying to do anything late part 1 with lolnailah and lolBK there?

Better yet, I'll just have Eddie Wrath/Resolve it as to remove the threat entirely. Can Aran do this to...any enemy?

I've already discussed resolve, and I'd like to point out wrath isn't much better. Like, 54 crit? And remember on the EP tigers attack first, so that could be Eddie killed regardless.

I would not call being 3RKOd commonly that big a durability lead

3RKO'ed is a massive jump away from 2RKO'ed. It's not like comparing 10RKO'ed vs 11RKO'ed here.

since at 14 speed he's now doubled by more of them.

No he isn't, they have 20+AS, so he's doubled by the same amount as he was before with 16 AS.

A. You are basically forcing the argument down a cliff, since anyone can be screwed in several ways, and you didn't even account things on Aran's side, such as Luck screwage increasing his chance of death even more, Defense screwage allowing him to be OHKOd more often by crts and generally fail at what he's supposed to be, being a high defensive tank.

Except if Eddie is spd screwed he is total garbage. If Aran is slightly def or luck screwed, it isn't the end of the world. Two different units, two different effects.

You are basically saying we should bring probability tables to every argument now, barring units that are basically stat-gods.

The game has an RNG, and thus we should account for it.

What if Eddie gets blessed?

Then he gets blessed. But without some -extreme- luck, it probably won't amount to much as he'll still be 2HKO'ed by most things on the map. It might even hurt him, as he might not even be put into wrath range before dying.

[Anouleth]

Long term potential doing what? Getting fed a ton of EXP just to be 3HKOd by tigers in 1 chapter isn't what I would deem as long-term potential.

Aran isn't great by any means, but even just being durable and hitting hard is pretty useful in 3-6.

1. So if Eddie gets screwed, least he can do is attempt Wrathcrits or Resolve to attempt to salvage the situation. While we see here, if Aran gets screwed, he can be capable of being killed on the spot for one slightly sloppy positioning, and generally being Eddie with worse offense, and has 0 way of salvaging the issue.

And in Aran's universe, Resolve doesn't exist, I guess. Nevermind that he can actually take a hit and doubles Tigers back with Resolve equipped (and stops getting doubled by anything).

Your attitude to this 18AS Tiger is ridiculous. Imagine if we qqed about Haar's 2-E performance because he has some ~10% chance to die to an Elthunder Sage. It would be absurd to apply such a huge penalty to a character for being unable to deal with an enemy type that only crops up once or twice on the entire map.

2. You forgot about any cat not the hilariously weak kind being able to double him with crit, having decent damage still on him, making Aran still more vulnerable than he needs to be just on random chance. In fact, what if he gets Def screwed, since you seem to really want to argue over a game of Yahtzee here? This problem can be only multiplied if he gets Def screwed, as cats would increase his death chance exponentially just cause they have crit on him. Aran's not in danger of just 1 enemy here.

Only Level 16 and 17 Cats have crit rates on Aran, and even with them, it's a 1% chance to get crit (and Aran has a 50% chance of having 11LUK, which case he faces no crit from anything).

3. How's Eddie in any danger? BEXP would help aleviate the issue if you must. If Aran gets speed screwed on the over.

Oh, on those turns when he has to fight enemies that 2HKO him. Such as every turn.

Beats Aran doubling nothing and being virtually unshovable. Again though, Wrath-Edge can still circumvent this to an extent, even if not by a lot due to being somewhat luck-dependent (50+Edge Crit and Myrm crit still seems like good odds though).

Actually, it doesn't beat Aran. Aran usually 2HKOes himself, so like Edward (who 3HKOes and doubles), he 2RKOes.

In addition, for someone who was just bitching about a 50% chance to have low enough luck to have a 1% chance of getting criticaled by 25% of enemies, you seem strangely satisfactory with Edward's ~85% chance to crit (and if he's in Wrath mode, the counter-attack will certainly kill him if it connects).

Better yet, I'll just have Eddie Wrath/Resolve it as to remove the threat entirely. Can Aran do this to...any enemy?

No. I don't think I've ever argued that Aran is better than Edward in Part 3, and certainly not in terms of offense.

In defense, 1-8 is a weird-ass chapter where enemies get this ridiculous spike, and this is admittedly a bad chapter for Eddie. But at least you point out the mage wins for me. Sure, anyone can do it...Except Aran, so Eddie still wins this chapter just on the basis he has at least 1 reason to get in this map, since Aran again just does less.

Some of them. Aran can OHKO the Wind Mages with Tauroneo's Silver Lance. And obviously, even if he can't do so to the other Mages, he is obviously winning massively in durability (for example, Soldiers 4HKO him, and the Bandits 5HKO him). It would be nice if the game was just all offense, all the time, but sadly, the enemies get to attack back as well.

Thanks for helping my argument?

What would be the point in lying? I'm not here to 'win'.

I would not call being 3RKOd commonly that big a durability lead, and you again ignore that Eddie can just use Resolve (which even at 16 speed if we wanna talk super-screwed, Resolve will still double all but the faster cats), and even in the case that neither are doubling, I would not call Aran's damage lead to be super significant, considering he's not outright killing, and thus is just slightly above Eddie in being middle of the pack. Even then, you still admit Eddie's got something even if screwed.

I was talking about Part 1.

In addition, being 3RKOed commonly is a big lead over being 2RKOed. It's the difference between Aran being able to engage in combat twice before being healed and Edward being able to engage in combat only once before being healed.

Secondly, when I say early on, I don'tmean "Part 3". I mean that whole fact that Eddie's at least been doing things since his start, while Aran starts as dead weight, and pretty much stays this way unless we're going to take the ridiculous argument of "Well, I didn't win at the slot machines with Eddie!".

No, you don't mean that Edward has been doing things since the start. You said that 'Eddie beats him out on his arrival'. Unless you mean 'Eddie beats [Edward] out on [Edward's] arrival', then you are unmistakingly talking about the 1-3/1-4/1-5 period of the game.

Yet you ignore the fact it makes him more vulnerable to some cat crits, since at 14 speed he's now doubled by more of them. Some of them can ORKO with a crit, and it only increases his chance of death, defeating the entire purpose of raising him.

It doesn't matter if he's at 14, 15, or 16 speed, since he's doubled by 100% of all of the cats. In fact, the slower 20AS Cats only have 10 crit to begin with, so a lot of the time he won't face any crit from them.

This is why this argument is insanity, for plenty of reasons.

So it's 'insanity' to acknowledge the reality that sometimes characters are RNG-screwed or RNG-blessed. I suppose we should only ever refer to average stats, 100% of the time.

You know, Grandjackal, when the ED article on FE Debating said that you need to refer to average stats, refer to average stats, and refer to average stats, you weren't supposed to take it seriously, even if it was linked in the first post.

A. You are basically forcing the argument down a cliff, since anyone can be screwed in several ways, and you didn't even account things on Aran's side, such as Luck screwage increasing his chance of death even more, Defense screwage allowing him to be OHKOd more often by crts and generally fail at what he's supposed to be, being a high defensive tank.

Often, these things aren't such a big deal as being SPD screwed. SPD screwage by a point cuts Edward's offense in half. Aran being low on defense by a point does not halve his durability, often in Part 1 it just takes his 4HKO or 5HKO to a 3HKO or 4HKO and sometimes not even that.

B. You are basically saying we should bring probability tables to every argument now, barring units that are basically stat-gods.

No. I'm saying that in certain situations where a single point of speed can make the difference between 'good unit' and 'bad unit', you should be aware that there is a chance he will fail to proc speed.

C. What if Eddie gets blessed? Yeah, what if he caps speed early, or gets a bit more strength to easier Wrathkill things? I can pump BEXP into him with less guilt, I can even promote him early and entirely remove the purpose of Zihark existing, since I can have Resolve on Eddie all the faster, or perhaps bump him up all the easier with Paragon in Part 1. If it can go both ways, then it's ridiculous to claim that someone should be punished because "bad luck exists", since good luck exists as well, and it turns into a circular argument that will never end, and will never be productive.

You don't need to spell it out for me. I have played with speed blessed Edward before myself, you know. But I think that the disintegration of Edward's offense that comes from screwage outweighs the advantages he gets from being blessed.

Now is there anything you'd like to bring up about Aran that actually has reason to it, or we just gonna sit here and pretend like Aran's immune to bad luck because "Speed doesn't effect him for like 1 chapter, dude", since it totally ignores how balls Aran is in Part 4 no matter how you split it?

I would have thought you would have gotten the message when I earlier typed "I agree with most of what you said". I am perfectly happy to agree with you that overall, Edward > Aran and especially, Edward >>> Aran in Part 4, and I am not going to pretend otherwise so you can have the lasting sense of acheivement that comes from winning an Argument On The Internet.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Black★Star

[Junkhead]

Edward actually saves turns.

[grandjackal]

Aran isn't great by any means, but even just being durable and hitting hard is pretty useful in 3-6.

I'd argue that not dying in one shot is pretty much good enough to function in 3-6.

And in Aran's universe, Resolve doesn't exist, I guess. Nevermind that he can actually take a hit and doubles Tigers back with Resolve equipped (and stops getting doubled by anything).

Well, how does Aran get into Resolve health effectively? Everyone cheers his durability, so let's say we get in a situation where he gets 3HKOd (since it's a just barely factor, we should keep in mind). Ok great, he survived 2 tigers, cool. But then we notice that it's 2 tigers sitting next to Aran, blocking the passage of other laguz attacks. Not quite maximizing the killing factor, unless we're just factoring that Aran's just running around on his own like he's the BK or something.

Secondly, can he kill? 21 Str and a +5 steel forge is 36 mt, and the weakest tiger has 47 HP and 18 Def. On average, he is 1 AS off doubling weaker cats. Granted it's pretty slick chip damage, but if I'm giving someone Resolve, I want murdering. Edward's rocking 32 might, but Resolve helps the crit rate quite a bit, along with natural Wrath. 20+10Skill is 15 Crit, +5 from Bolg, +10 from Swordmaster bonus, and +50 from Wrath equates to 80 crit before enemy luck is factored in, striking twice. So while it's not a clean killing rate, 80% beats 0% every time, last I checked. If we argue BEXP helped Aran get some speed, he's basically only got weak Cats killed vs Eddie getting BEXP for Str allowing the weak cats killed normally as well, along with ensuring crits kill the strongest of tigers (he's 1 might off normally). Aran won't win Resolve easily, offensively speaking.

Then the defensive, can they use it safely? Aran can get 3HKOd sure, but he cannot have Resolve while being 3HKOd. Chances are he will be near the end of his health bar to get that active (unless you went and did something crazily specific like got hit by a single tiger through very specific unit placement and then had him go find a cat to smack him in the face). Durability doesn't quite enter into Resolve this early, since chances are you can't get away with being 3HKOd while using Resolve at a reliable pace. Therefore, we can only go to Avoid. Aran's rocking a sexy 55 Avoid, which means even the dumbest of tigers have...above 90 displayed on him at neutral, 70 at best in the reeds. So, Aran even with Resolve, is most likely hitting 1 or 2 dudes with Resolve, then dies because he couldn't dodge a brick being thrown at him. Even an A Earth support does not reduce this to a coinflip. This is some pretty horrid use.

On the other hand, Eddie has 21+10 speed (62 avoid), +8 from Caladbolg (70), 16 Luck (86) and then add 22 from Nolan (a support Eddie can easily argue for, Narga can back me up on this, and it brings it up to 108). The hit range on neutral is about 24-34, on reeds it's 14-24. Still a gamble, but the odds are incredibly in Eddie's favor, since even at worst bio, it still does not reach the level of hittable that Aran gets in the reeds at best bio. Furthermore, he's keeping Nolan safer by existing with the support bonus of +22 Avoid and +2 Def, and keeping Nolan safer is always cool.

Finally, the player phase, of which in this situation would be suicide for Aran is actually decent for Eddie outside of the strongest tigers. The whole crit thing basically ensures he doesn't die since they'll be dead first, but did you now you could fit Cancel on this Wrath/Resolve? So on top of crit, he has the added cushion of a 31% activating Cancel (thanks to Resolve boosting Skill), which can further increase his kill rate since we have reduced the risk of dying on attack. It's a gamble sure, but it again still beats Aran's 0% chance of survival on player phase under Resolve.

Do keep in mind I am not advocating either of these guys pull what Nolan does and just kill shit on their own. Neither are capable of that. But let's just say both are tagging along with Nolan, positioning themselves to get what stragglers Nolan's not quite in the reach of. Aran's not killing anything anyways, and at best just puts himself at greater risk of dying without showing any results for it, while Eddie can at least gamble his way out of it, and can even proceed to roll dice on player phase, of which the odds are pretty nicely in his favor outside of the most mighty of tigers.

I don't think I had to spell it out n great detail why Aran doesn't get Resolve, because I think it was obvious since the beginning of time: He doesn't put it to as good of use.

Your attitude to this 18AS Tiger is ridiculous. Imagine if we qqed about Haar's 2-E performance because he has some ~10% chance to die to an Elthunder Sage. It would be absurd to apply such a huge penalty to a character for being unable to deal with an enemy type that only crops up once or twice on the entire map.

In defense, Haar's a unit that can fly anywhere and can easily just avoid the problem altogether...and it's 2-E, so the situation will never arise because the map ends before it even begins. I would consider it a farcry from the situation of Aran being in an open field where a laguz can just run in on him and laugh until Aran cries himself to death. Situational sure, but far more probable.

Only Level 16 and 17 Cats have crit rates on Aran, and even with them, it's a 1% chance to get crit (and Aran has a 50% chance of having 11LUK, which case he faces no crit from anything).

Well if we're gonna argue that 1 point of a stat is enough to begrudge a unit in the case of stat-screwage, and Aran needs 5...

Oh, on those turns when he has to fight enemies that 2HKO him. Such as every turn.

Well hey, I suggested Resolve for a reason: he puts it to good use.

Actually, it doesn't beat Aran. Aran usually 2HKOes himself, so like Edward (who 3HKOes and doubles), he 2RKOes.

He 2RKOs cats, and even then he doesn't double with Resolve. Eddie's at least got extreme crit on his side.

In addition, for someone who was just bitching about a 50% chance to have low enough luck to have a 1% chance of getting criticaled by 25% of enemies, you seem strangely satisfactory with Edward's ~85% chance to crit (and if he's in Wrath mode, the counter-attack will certainly kill him if it connects).

Yet you bitch about Eddie failing to get 1 speed suddenly ruining him. What about the 4 points of speed that Aran needs just to function in part 3? How about the 9 Def? How about the 6 HP? If I meet all these parameters, I just get an average unit in the end. With Eddie meeting his parameters, I at least get something out of the deal.

Besides, this is still better than having middling offense on maps that require me to kill shit to complete it. Aran can be as cool as he wants saying he gets 3HKOd (on average), but at the end of the day, that's not what's getting part 3 completed.

No. I don't think I've ever argued that Aran is better than Edward in Part 3, and certainly not in terms of offense.

*looks up*

That wasn't arguing?

Some of them. Aran can OHKO the Wind Mages with Tauroneo's Silver Lance.

From D lances to A in 4 1/2 chapters? (1-6-2 isn't really a full chapter)

And obviously, even if he can't do so to the other Mages, he is obviously winning massively in durability (for example, Soldiers 4HKO him, and the Bandits 5HKO him). It would be nice if the game was just all offense, all the time, but sadly, the enemies get to attack back as well.

And that would be cool, if this wasn't a ROUTE map you were talking about.

I was talking about Part 1.

In addition, being 3RKOed commonly is a big lead over being 2RKOed. It's the difference between Aran being able to engage in combat twice before being healed and Edward being able to engage in combat only once before being healed.

I would argue that for part 1, it wouldn't even matter because such situations you would put much more capable units in Aran's supposed position, of which I wouldn't argue Eddie into anyways. Eddie's just to counter-crit with Wrath random stragglers for part 1 after his forced point, which case he's free to just roam around and heal himself with items since he's not trying to charge headfirst into the frontlines.

Aran or Eddie, I would rather concentrate healers on people doing actual work at that point in time. I wouldn't want healers tagging along with either of them.

No, you don't mean that Edward has been doing things since the start. You said that 'Eddie beats him out on his arrival'. Unless you mean 'Eddie beats [Edward] out on [Edward's] arrival', then you are unmistakingly talking about the 1-3/1-4/1-5 period of the game.

I meant both, since we both know Eddie's just better in part 1. Better i 1-3 because he's actually on hte team in 1-3, wins 1-4 for reasons everyone's been repeating since the start of the list+Wrathcountering the occasional laguz that strays themselves away from groups, and from then on it's just self improvement while units like Jill, Taur, Volug, Sothe LEA, Nailah and BK do actual work.

It doesn't matter if he's at 14, 15, or 16 speed, since he's doubled by 100% of all of the cats. In fact, the slower 20AS Cats only have 10 crit to begin with, so a lot of the time he won't face any crit from them.

Yeah yeah, pardon that little error, but fine. How about Luck screwed, or defense screwed?There's more than one way to bone an Aran.

So it's 'insanity' to acknowledge the reality that sometimes characters are RNG-screwed or RNG-blessed. I suppose we should only ever refer to average stats, 100% of the time.

You know, Grandjackal, when the ED article on FE Debating said that you need to refer to average stats, refer to average stats, and refer to average stats, you weren't supposed to take it seriously, even if it was linked in the first post.

Well, you heard the man. Time to do the math to see how screwed or blessed a character can be at any given level with all the inbetweens! Because there's no way someone would think that screwage or blessage only affects the IMMEDIATE performance of a character, heavens no!

Man, Vincent will have a ton of fun putting all that shit on the site.

Often, these things aren't such a big deal as being SPD screwed. SPD screwage by a point cuts Edward's offense in half. Aran being low on defense by a point does not halve his durability, often in Part 1 it just takes his 4HKO or 5HKO to a 3HKO or 4HKO and sometimes not even that.

Ok great, how about we just cut to the chase here and now. Eddie becomes speed screwed. How does it make Aran better when the problem with Aran that people have found lately is that he doesn't really do anything? To make the point clear in a small cut sentence.

Eddie became speed screwed, so now he performs similar to Aran.

No. I'm saying that in certain situations where a single point of speed can make the difference between 'good unit' and 'bad unit', you should be aware that there is a chance he will fail to proc speed.

And this I argue is silly, because screwage can hurt future performance as well, not just immediate. ruined in the present. If Aran is screwed, he had no past to fall back on, his present is nothing special anyways, and his future is ruined. Eddie at least has a past in his performance that was good. This alone should pretty much secure any doubt about Eddie vs Aran.

You don't need to spell it out for me. I have played with speed blessed Edward before myself, you know. But I think that the disintegration of Edward's offense that comes from screwage outweighs the advantages he gets from being blessed.

But again though, how is this an argument in Aran's favor when it has no effect on his performance at all?

I would have thought you would have gotten the message when I earlier typed "I agree with most of what you said". I am perfectly happy to agree with you that overall, Edward > Aran and especially, Edward >>> Aran in Part 4, and I am not going to pretend otherwise so you can have the lasting sense of acheivement that comes from winning an Argument On The Internet.

So then what was the point of this argument you brought up, saying that though Eddie's better,but the fact that Eddie getting screwed by random chance should be factored into the argument, which apparently was not an argument you were not starting, but totally were?

[aku chi]

So then what was the point of this argument you brought up, saying that though Eddie's better,but the fact that Eddie getting screwed by random chance should be factored into the argument, which apparently was not an argument you were not starting, but totally were?

Believe it or not, it's entirely possible for two people to agree on a conclusion while disagreeing with the premises or arguments that lead to that conclusion.

[Anouleth]

I'd argue that not dying in one shot is pretty much good enough to function in 3-6.

Really? Even if Aran has half the offense of Edward, the fact that he can engage in combat twice as often means that he is overall, probably contributing the same amount in terms of enemy phase offense. (Now, due to stuff like criticals and Cancel, Edward has a much better player phase offense, but that's besides my point). There is most certainly an advantage to having good durability.

Well, how does Aran get into Resolve health effectively? Everyone cheers his durability, so let's say we get in a situation where he gets 3HKOd (since it's a just barely factor, we should keep in mind). Ok great, he survived 2 tigers, cool. But then we notice that it's 2 tigers sitting next to Aran, blocking the passage of other laguz attacks. Not quite maximizing the killing factor, unless we're just factoring that Aran's just running around on his own like he's the BK or something.

I don't really understand your point here.

Secondly, can he kill? 21 Str and a +5 steel forge is 36 mt, and the weakest tiger has 47 HP and 18 Def. On average, he is 1 AS off doubling weaker cats. Granted it's pretty slick chip damage, but if I'm giving someone Resolve, I want murdering.

The only person who 'murders' with Resolve is Mordecai. Even Edward relies more on Wrath than Resolve, Resolve is only there so he doubles Cats.

'on average', Aran has 16AS (rounded up from 15.55AS), so he does double weaker Cats with Resolve. Even if he doesn't straight away, it's possible to gain levels over the course of 3-6 because the laguz give a lot of EXP.

Edward's rocking 32 might, but Resolve helps the crit rate quite a bit, along with natural Wrath. 20+10Skill is 15 Crit, +5 from Bolg, +10 from Swordmaster bonus, and +50 from Wrath equates to 80 crit before enemy luck is factored in, striking twice. So while it's not a clean killing rate, 80% beats 0% every time, last I checked.

Because Aran doesn't have 21SKL himself, or a crit bonus from his class, and it's impossible for him to take a crit boosting weapon. So he has 0% CRIT on everything, assuming you ignore reality.

If we argue BEXP helped Aran get some speed, he's basically only got weak Cats killed vs Eddie getting BEXP for Str allowing the weak cats killed normally as well, along with ensuring crits kill the strongest of tigers (he's 1 might off normally). Aran won't win Resolve easily, offensively speaking.

Sure, but since Aran no longer gets doubled, he can take on a far larger number of Cats. Like, 20/1 Aran with a support gets 5HKOed or something.

Then the defensive, can they use it safely? Aran can get 3HKOd sure, but he cannot have Resolve while being 3HKOd.

Chances are he will be near the end of his health bar to get that active (unless you went and did something crazily specific like got hit by a single tiger through very specific unit placement and then had him go find a cat to smack him in the face).

How crazy! Trying to set it up so that Aran gets hit by 1 Tiger and 1 Cat when the only enemies on the map are Tigers and Cats and they're completely mixed together!

On average, Aran has enough defense to get 3HKOed by 39mt Tigers anyway with a support.

Durability doesn't quite enter into Resolve this early, since chances are you can't get away with being 3HKOd while using Resolve at a reliable pace. Therefore, we can only go to Avoid. Aran's rocking a sexy 55 Avoid, which means even the dumbest of tigers have...above 90 displayed on him at neutral, 70 at best in the reeds. So, Aran even with Resolve, is most likely hitting 1 or 2 dudes with Resolve, then dies because he couldn't dodge a brick being thrown at him. Even an A Earth support does not reduce this to a coinflip. This is some pretty horrid use.

So what if he can't dodge? Aran can take two rounds of combat and have 0% chance of death. Edward cannot. His chance of death will be greater.

On the other hand, Eddie has 21+10 speed (62 avoid), +8 from Caladbolg (70), 16 Luck (86) and then add 22 from Nolan (a support Eddie can easily argue for, Narga can back me up on this, and it brings it up to 108). The hit range on neutral is about 24-34, on reeds it's 14-24. Still a gamble, but the odds are incredibly in Eddie's favor,

Yes, I have used Edward before. There's no need to remind me that he has good avoid.

since even at worst bio, it still does not reach the level of hittable that Aran gets in the reeds at best bio. Furthermore, he's keeping Nolan safer by existing with the support bonus of +22 Avoid and +2 Def, and keeping Nolan safer is always cool.

It's not like Nolan can take an Aran support, which gives him arguably better bonuses.

I don't think I had to spell it out n great detail why Aran doesn't get Resolve, because I think it was obvious since the beginning of time: He doesn't put it to as good of use.

As who? Chances are, we are only going to use three characters seriously in Part 3. One gets Beastfoe, the next gets Paragon, the third gets Resolve. You don't have so many units that people are jockeying to get to use Resolve.

In defense, Haar's a unit that can fly anywhere and can easily just avoid the problem altogether...and it's 2-E, so the situation will never arise because the map ends before it even begins. I would consider it a farcry from the situation of Aran being in an open field where a laguz can just run in on him and laugh until Aran cries himself to death. Situational sure, but far more probable.

Good thing you're not in an open field, you're in 3-6, where the laguz have only 1 move in the river when transformed.

Yet you bitch about Eddie failing to get 1 speed suddenly ruining him.

It's a flaw. Just as Aran's luck is also a flaw, just one that crops up less often.

What about the 4 points of speed that Aran needs just to function in part 3? How about the 9 Def? How about the 6 HP?

Yes, how insane to suggest that Aran falls vaguely near his averages.

If I meet all these parameters, I just get an average unit in the end. With Eddie meeting his parameters, I at least get something out of the deal.

Yeah, you get a Zihark that can equip Wrath and Resolve at the same time. Woohoo?

*looks up*

That wasn't arguing?

I know you're not the smartest person in the world, but let me take you back to three posts ago when you claimed that if Aran was Speed screwed, he was completely, irrevocably Ruined Forever in Part 3, and then went on to claim that Aran had absolutely no long term potential (since you pushed for him to be below Rolf). I am not trying to prove that Aran is better than Edward in Part 3, since I don't think he is. I am simply showing you that you are incorrect about your other statements.

From D lances to A in 4 1/2 chapters? (1-6-2 isn't really a full chapter)

I forget Lance rank. Weapon rank in general is kind of forgettable. But he OHKOes even with 1 less attack from an Iron forge.

And that would be cool, if this wasn't a ROUTE map you were talking about.

Oh, so apparently more durability is just useless in Rout maps, since enemies will gladly just sit there and let you kill them. I'll tell Micaiah, shall I?

I would argue that for part 1, it wouldn't even matter because such situations you would put much more capable units in Aran's supposed position, of which I wouldn't argue Eddie into anyways.

It's funny, smash has pulled the exact same argument with me before, only with Edward/Leonardo instead of Aran/Edward. He said that being able to have an enemy phase was 'useless' for Edward since we have tons of better units who can have enemy phase.

It's a stupid argument. Obviously, being able to fight two, or three, or four enemies per turn is better than being able to fight 1 enemy and one enemy only per turn, and enemy density isn't so low that it's not useful to be able to do that.

Eddie's just to counter-crit with Wrath random stragglers for part 1 after his forced point, which case he's free to just roam around and heal himself with items since he's not trying to charge headfirst into the frontlines.

Except when it doesn't work since some enemies don't deal enough damage to put him into Wrath mode, or he doesn't double and only 4HKOes. I found that I almost never used Wrath in Part 1, just because it was too much hassle to set up when I could just have him kill random scrub Mages with Nolan.

Aran or Eddie, I would rather concentrate healers on people doing actual work at that point in time. I wouldn't want healers tagging along with either of them.

Like who? As cute as it would be to have Laura sprout wings so she can keep up someone other than 1st tier scrubs, but generally, they don't need healing in the first place.

And it doesn't matter if it's healing with a staff or a vulnerary. 3RKOed is still significantly better than being 2RKOed. The 2RKOed person must take 1 enemy and only 1 enemy on during enemy phase, then heal, but the 3RKOed person can take 2 enemies on enemy phase, then heal. So the 3RKOed person can engage in combat more often and thus deal more damage.

I meant both, since we both know Eddie's just better in part 1. Better i 1-3 because he's actually on hte team in 1-3, wins 1-4 for reasons everyone's been repeating since the start of the list+Wrathcountering the occasional laguz that strays themselves away from groups, and from then on it's just self improvement while units like Jill, Taur, Volug, Sothe LEA, Nailah and BK do actual work.

If Edward isn't doubling, I find it hard to believe he can even engage in self-improvement, is my point, since his offense gets put on the level of Leonardo.

Well, you heard the man. Time to do the math to see how screwed or blessed a character can be at any given level with all the inbetweens! Because there's no way someone would think that screwage or blessage only affects the IMMEDIATE performance of a character, heavens no!

Man, Vincent will have a ton of fun putting all that shit on the site.

You don't need to do it in every instance, obviously. I think it's only really necessary for speed, since even a single point of speed can make such a massive difference.

In addition, this would not be the first time that stuff like this has been taken into account. For example, a lot of people talk about giving Titania various boosters and BEXP to increase the chance of her having 22SPD at level 18 (which is ordinarily only 75%).

Probability tables can be found on FEPlanet, by the way.

Ok great, how about we just cut to the chase here and now. Eddie becomes speed screwed. How does it make Aran better when the problem with Aran that people have found lately is that he doesn't really do anything? To make the point clear in a small cut sentence.

Eddie became speed screwed, so now he performs similar to Aran.

Uh, he doesn't. 3HKOing enemies and being 2HKOed back in Part 1 is miles behind Aran.

And this I argue is silly, because screwage can hurt future performance as well, not just immediate. ruined in the present. If Aran is screwed, he had no past to fall back on, his present is nothing special anyways, and his future is ruined. Eddie at least has a past in his performance that was good. This alone should pretty much secure any doubt about Eddie vs Aran.

Oh no, now Aran doesn't double in Part 4! What a dramatic change in his performance!

But again though, how is this an argument in Aran's favor when it has no effect on his performance at all?

You know, there are two characters in Edward vs. Aran. I don't think it's completely irrelevant to the argument to suggest flaws in Edward's performance.

Nor am I on 'Aran's side' here. I am simply pointing out the flaws in your argument. You should really be thanking me, if anything.

No, it's no trouble. I'm happy to help.

So then what was the point of this argument you brought up, saying that though Eddie's better,but the fact that Eddie getting screwed by random chance should be factored into the argument, which apparently was not an argument you were not starting, but totally were?

Because I like arguing, and I especially like arguing when I know my opponent is wrong and I am right. The whole point of this tier list is to have fun, right? And I'm having a blast :P

[Interceptor]

The whole point of this tier list is to have fun, right? And I'm having a blast :P

Glad that someone is, because right now I'm pounding a hole to China through my desk, using my face.

Grandjackal, this line of argument is going nowhere. It's time to pack your bags, turn in your room key, and get out of Crazytown before someone gets hurt. The problem here is not that Eddie doesn't deserve to go up, it's that you're focusing on things that Eddie can't help but lose, which puts everyone in the bizarre position of defending Aran even though they suspect he's actually worse. I have a feeling that if someone asked you to argue that it's better to unclog a drain with a household cleaner than a bottle of apple juice, you'd write a 50-page rant on the nutritional value of drinking Liquid Plumr.

There is really not much point in looking at Eddie with Wrath or Resolve, because he is not very good with either of them, owing to issues of durability and risk. However, it may be worth considering using a stat booster to extend Eddie's useful life, since giving one up (like a Drop, Draco, or Robe) will help him considerably, and won't kill anyone. You could also pair him with A Leonardo, which has some offense and DEF that A Nolan doesn't. Or to turn him into a poor man's Nolan with Beastfoe, since Caladbolg has no problem OHKO'ing cats, and Eddie's SPD lets him reach tigers with a ORKO (and Leo can combo with him to turn a tiger into a OHKO for Eddie). Nolan is also plenty capable of running interference with Tarvos, in a supporting role, to help build Eddie up for later-game performance. If Eddie can get to a decent Swordmaster level by the end of 3-13, and we crown him, he can hold his own in Part 4.

This isn't a great contribution, and frankly it's also not even very good, but considering that it's no worse than what Zihark is giving us once Part 3 starts, it's certainly worth more than Lower Mid. Eddie is not optimal, but he is also not not a black hole from which no utility escapes, like Astrid or Lyre (for whom it's counterproductive to even consider with contested resources).

[Anouleth]

There is really not much point in looking at Eddie with Wrath or Resolve, because he is not very good with either of them, owing to issues of durability and risk.

I don't think that Wrath/Resolve is that bad on Edward. Certainly, I think that with his high innate crit, his access to the Killing Edge, and good skill, he is probably better set up to take advantage of Wrath's crit boost than anyone except Zihark. In addition, GJ isn't wrong when he suggests that Edward can combine the two with Cancel to some effect. The net result is an Edward who, while still unable to engage more than one enemy on Enemy Phase, has very good enemy phase when wounded, since he has something like a ~75% chance to critical, followed by a ~31% chance to activate Cancel, followed by a ~88% chance to dodge the counterattack, and with a killing edge, the chance to critical is in the 90s (there's also the possibility of a steel critforge which gives him an 85% chance to critical). Obviously, you don't want to leave him like that on enemy phase, but it's great for finishing off even slightly weakened enemies.

However, it may be worth considering using a stat booster to extend Eddie's useful life, since giving one up (like a Drop, Draco, or Robe) will help him considerably, and won't kill anyone.

I think that a stat booster to help Edward's durability is just a waste. You really might as well be selling it. He caps his HP very fast with no help from anyone, and even with a Dracoshield he's still usually getting 2HKOed in Part 3 (maybe he can escape Cats, but Cat + Tiger always 2HKOes). It can also make it harder to set up Wrath-counters.

I think that Edward is just not in the running for a Dracoshield. Nolan, Volug, and Jill are far better canditates.

I don't really know how to feel about the Energy Drop. I feel like there are better canditates around, but I've never really thought a great deal about how he performs with the Drop, so I couldn't say.

You could also pair him with A Leonardo, which has some offense and DEF that A Nolan doesn't.

Leonardo is unlikely to be fielded in the last few DB chapters where you don't have many deployment slots, and he certainly won't be able to follow Edward around in Part 4. In addition, I would rather have the additional avoid than the +defense, since the avoid *might* help, while the defense won't help.

Or to turn him into a poor man's Nolan with Beastfoe, since Caladbolg has no problem OHKO'ing cats, and Eddie's SPD lets him reach tigers with a ORKO (and Leo can combo with him to turn a tiger into a OHKO for Eddie). Nolan is also plenty capable of running interference with Tarvos, in a supporting role, to help build Eddie up for later-game performance. If Eddie can get to a decent Swordmaster level by the end of 3-13, and we crown him, he can hold his own in Part 4.

Nolan without Beastfoe is just a waste. He's Aran that doesn't get doubled by 20AS Cats. Given that Edward can achieve crit rates in the 70s and 80s and ORKO without Beastfoe, it seems rather misplaced to give it to him.

This isn't a great contribution, and frankly it's also not even very good, but considering that it's no worse than what Zihark is giving us once Part 3 starts, it's certainly worth more than Lower Mid. Eddie is not optimal, but he is also not not a black hole from which no utility escapes, like Astrid or Lyre (for whom it's counterproductive to even consider with contested resources).

Pretty much. There are plenty of people in Mid tier who like Edward, have a handful of useful chapters early on in their lifespan and have some tenuous long-term potential, such as Kieran, and Marcia. Personally, I think that Edward might even be comparable to someone like Nephenee or Boyd N, but I'm probably overrating his performance and I think that Mid is a fine place for him.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

He's also the only sword user the DB has until 1-6 (Meg is useless and doesn't count), which is good for the slew of Fighters/Bandits in the first few chapters. He's also invaluable in 1-1 because Micky and Leonardo face OHKO's from most of the enemies. Nolan can take out the Soldiers and Eddie can take out the Fighters. Odds are Edward also gets the boss kill because Nolan has WTD and neither Micky nor Leonardo can take him down on their own.