OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

I can sort of see why a person would hold against putting Sothe in Top Tier (which is why I bartered for Volug down, which I think is honestly the best solution). Sothe is great. There's no doubt about it. For Part 1. There's also a small issue with Sothe; his turn saving stuff is somewhat limited. If you look at things, he doesn't do a whole lot in 1-2 that saves turns. He pushes forward to swipe the Energy Drop chest and that's about it. In 1-3 he does have quite a bit of saving. The same with 1-4. 1-5 doesn't really save nor lose any turns here since it's merely a defend for x amount of turns map. 1-6 is split between Jill, Tauroneo, Sothe, Volug, and perhaps one of Nolan / Aran / Edward / etc. It's likely Nolan by the way. 1-6-2 is completely Tauroneo and Jill, though Sothe is an option. A dicey one since he has to survive everything at two range. This also requires a Knife forge, which is important because now we're whittling resources into Sothe for no real reason aside from the experience gain, which is somewhat put to waste when 3-12 on his offense is mediocre at best. Laverton has 33 HP | 14 Def by the way. A Level 5 Sothe has 27 Atk, which fails to kill him cleanly in one shot. Sorry boys and girls, but Tauroneo saves the day here.

So now we hit 1-6-2 and he's only clutch-like in about 2 chapters. 1-3 and 1-4. We can give him partial credit for 1-2 and 1-6-1, but that's not a lot. The remainder of Part 1 he's good, but he has to share his contributions once again with a lot of units. Unlike a unit like Haar, or even Titania w/roids and Ike, he's sharing quite a bit of the # of turns actually shaved for the team. Now obviously his offense is awesome. Forged Iron Knives are just reliable enough to clear the enemies, and the Hit can be forged to shoot up ledges in instances such as 1-7.

Now we hit Part 3.

3-6 he's helping a lot, admittedly. His extended range of vision and access to Beastkiller is nice. Now Interceptor noted about Beastkiller's shoddy hit rates, and he couldn't be further from the truth on that one. Sothe is a bit sloppy on it. Especially when Micaiah is out of support range, laguz are in thickets, or there's biorhythm in play (seriously fuck biorhythm sometimes). Combat-wise, he doesn't pull as much weight as Volug / Nolan / Jill usually is. Volug can have Beastfoe and tear things to shreds or play as a gumming device for Jill. Nolan w/Beastfoe cooks the laguz in more ways than Chuck Norris can think of, and Jill at least reaches places that are difficult for others to reach. I'm not sure what the Swordmasters do or really care since they're just gutter trash to me anyway when they're 2HKOed and what not. 3-12 Sothe might help with Pegasi at best. 3-13 is just him blocking chokepoints.

Then Part 4 arrives. He's a deadweight. He contributes equal or less than 0 to combat in these chapters, and he's forced. This isn't like Marcus who, after his bad period, can simply be dropped. No, Sothe's contributions are left to semi-useless items that are found in the desert (literally they have almost no purpose). At best it gives a slightly safer buffer for forges in 4-E since you don't want to burn your SS Rank weapons in 4-E-1, but the point that I can only attribute Sothe's contributions in Part 4 to finding items isn't good.

No, Sothe deserves High Tier. He's a great unit. In Part 1 he's solid. In Part 3 he's rough, but at best he can hold 2/3 of the fort. He has some redeeming features in some of those chapters (like in 3-13 where he at least can choke, unlike say base Aran and co). He's good in 3-6, but I wouldn't argue much in 3-13 since a lot of the work probably leans on Volug / Tauroneo / Jill / Nolan. Maybe some of Leonardo too since he blocks the Ravens like Sothe can block Cats. I can argue about over Volug, since Sothe does have a lot going for his Part 1 in comparison to Volug's Part 1 (1-5 is shared aside from helping save Jill, 1-6-1 is shared with a lot of units, 1-6-2 has little to do with him, 1-7 - 1-E he's good like Sothe), but his Part 4 hinges on him keeping up on his Strike level as well as his growths cooperating. Let's not forget he also has to level up to get Savage to help in situations where he misses ORKOes (or I guess Adept works). I wouldn't argue much on him for 4-E either.

=====

Titania is a slightly different story, and I advocate her placement for Top Tier. I'm not sure explicitly on tier list goals I guess, since it can vary from person to person and being efficient means a lot. What I will say is Titania is definitely a unique unit. It's true units such as Ike don't need a lot of resources to be good, but he also has shitty 2 range until 3-11 (Titania's only flaw is it can have shaky Hit issues until 3-7), limited Movement, no Canto, no Hammertime (he's reliant on Brave Sword for ORKOing Generals, which at least is better than relying on Adept crits from Mia for example), and his promotion has to wait until Part 4 (which means his stats stay stagnant at Level 20). Much like Titania, Ike requires BEXP. Ike could need a Speedwing, but using Ike similar to how I did should ease the pain away from needing it. Titania's real cost is the Speedwing, but I think the main thing is here that the returns help alleviate the cost behind it. For example, while OHKOing Generals isn't a problem, Titania still needs to help rout in 3-8 and 3-10. This is important to at least help lower turncounts, and forged Hand Axes are the way to go to kill as many scrubees as possible. So long as Ike can keep up on his Speed, he should be more than fine. He doesn't really help as much in the routing as your mounts and Canto-users alike do. His main props come from 3-P - 3-2, helping in 3-3 and 3-4, 3-11 with Ragnell bombing, then 3-E to the end of the game.

Also, Titania's durability doesn't really crack until Part 4 anyway. It's sufficient enough to keep her afloat in Part 3 with a little Vulnerary use and Pocket Mist<tm>. In 4-1 I found her decent enough to help clear the right side since the Generals will hate Hammer still, though she can go on the left side... okay since it does have some 2 range asshats. It looks very susceptible in 4-4 though when she's on the bottom, but I always wondered if it would be better to just Rescue her up the stairs and have someone a little more reliable down there. Besides, there's Generals all over the place on the top floor. 4-E-1 has Generals galore, 4-E-3 she can help clear a path to Dheg, and at best she helps in 4-E-5 with blessed Brave Axe with the added boon of moving away to allow others to take advantage of pools. It's a win/win situation.

It can look like a tier difference between Ike and Titania if you base everything along the lines of opportunity cost. Which is true, everything has an opportunity cost to some extremes. The major question is can someone other than Titania take the Speedwing and maybe the Seraph Robe and duplicate what she does. There's only one real unit that does it, and he's already two tiers above her (one if she goes to Top). I know I didn't finish my play through, but I can buy into Titania as a Top Tier unit simply with her assistance in Part 3 and she's at least ABLE to keep up with the team in Part 4. Her combat is solid with a Speedwing, her durability doesn't completely snap into mediocrity until Part 4, her +2 Mov and Canto ability on foot units is insane, and she can Hammertime Generals for OHKOes with a little assistance in BEXP. Haar can't be in two places at once. Titania and Haar can be in two places at once.

[Florete]

I can sort of see why a person would hold against putting Sothe in Top Tier.

I can, too. I just can't see why people seem to think the idea is outrageous and insane.

1-6-2 is completely Tauroneo and Jill, though Sothe is an option. A dicey one since he has to survive everything at two range. This also requires a Knife forge, which is important because now we're whittling resources into Sothe for no real reason aside from the experience gain, which is somewhat put to waste when 3-12 on his offense is mediocre at best. Laverton has 33 HP | 14 Def by the way. A Level 5 Sothe has 27 Atk, which fails to kill him cleanly in one shot. Sorry boys and girls, but Tauroneo saves the day here.

This isn't a maximum efficiency tier list, so taking 1 extra turn in the absence of a Tauroneo drop really isn't such a big deal (Interceptor himself noted this once before). And you should be giving him Knife forges regardless. It's also worth noting that Sothe can actually use the experience boost while Tauroneo disappoofs, and Jill not needing to Rescue T means she can fight and get some much needed experience herself. I'd honestly say that's probably better in the long run. From what I recall of my HM draft run, Sothe can die, but his chance is actually rather low.

Unlike a unit like Haar, or even Titania w/roids and Ike, he's sharing quite a bit of the # of turns actually shaved for the team.

Hey wait a minute...

Unlike these three units who are all on the same team...

But Sothe is the one "sharing?"

Then Part 4 arrives. He's a deadweight. He contributes equal or less than 0 to combat in these chapters, and he's forced. This isn't like Marcus who, after his bad period, can simply be dropped.

Wait, what? Why not? Since when does "forced" mean he has to be used?

No, Sothe's contributions are left to semi-useless items that are found in the desert (literally they have almost no purpose). At best it gives a slightly safer buffer for forges in 4-E since you don't want to burn your SS Rank weapons in 4-E-1, but the point that I can only attribute Sothe's contributions in Part 4 to finding items isn't good.

So wait, is this better or worse than being dropped?

Maybe some of Leonardo too since he blocks the Ravens like Sothe can block Cats.

Figured I'd point out that 1. they're Hawks, and 2. the allies can shoot them down in one hit quite reliably.

[RNG Princess]

I say Sothe is a clutch on 1-6 because Zihark's wind edging sucks compared to Sothe's forges and Volug's lack of 2 range will slow down the process if he's the main fighter on the left side, and for 1-6-2 1 turn longer is better than wasting a boss kill on Tauro but Tauro is much more reliable than Sothe ^^' but I'd prefer giving the boss kill to Jill if i'm taking 3 turns.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Colonel M]

This isn't a maximum efficiency tier list, so taking 1 extra turn in the absence of a Tauroneo drop really isn't such a big deal (Interceptor himself noted this once before). And you should be giving him Knife forges regardless. It's also worth noting that Sothe can actually use the experience boost while Tauroneo disappoofs, and Jill not needing to Rescue T means she can fight and get some much needed experience herself. I'd honestly say that's probably better in the long run. From what I recall of my HM draft run, Sothe can die, but his chance is actually rather low.

The problem is it eats into your funds. Now I'm not saying the GMs and DB will suddenly become poor with this, but it is a cost worth considering. Consider also that Sothe is pretty much a black hole anyway: not a whole lot happens when you put that experience into him. Even if he miraculously made it to where he doubles Cats, it at best gives him two shots at killing it in one hit. He still has to double Tigers.

What I mean is this still costs something. A turn and the resources of a knife forge. That's something to consider when Taur only needs roughly a not-really-used Javelin or Hand Axe.

Hey wait a minute...

Unlike these three units who are all on the same team...

But Sothe is the one "sharing?"

Aside from maybe Ike, they're much more unique to the team than Sothe is. Remember, you get Volug who's only weakness is he lacks two range. Volug has +2 gun move on Sothe and enough offense to tear through things anyway, not to mention his durability is pretty high up there. Sothe also has to share contributions with Tauroneo who saves a lot, Jill who also does, Nailah, and BK. Sothe isn't pulling a lot of the heavy lifting after 1-5 like these guys are. Titania and Haar are pulling the heavy lifting. Ike does to an extent.

Think of Sothe's contributions being a McDonald's Happy Meal toy at this point to Titania and Haar's Porsche.

Wait, what? Why not? Since when does "forced" mean he has to be used?

If he's not used, he's merely neutral or a negative under the implication that he doesn't do anything for the team. It's like Roy. He's forced, but who gives a fuck what he does after like Chapter 7? Sothe does squat to save turns in Part 4.

So wait, is this better or worse than being dropped?

It really doesn't matter. Sothe once again does nothing in Part 4. In other words, he can be either neutral or negative. There is no positive.

Figured I'd point out that 1. they're Hawks, and 2. the allies can shoot them down in one hit quite reliably.

Actually IIRC the second one is a little bit harder to hit with biorhythm conditions but my memory could be lapsing on me. It's been a while on this one.

I say Sothe is a clutch on 1-6 because Zihark's wind edging sucks compared to Sothe's forges and Volug's lack of 2 range will slow down the process if he's the main fighter on the left side

Volug would likely do most of his confrontation from the right side in 1-6-1. While Sothe does help through 1-6-1 on the left side, Zihark as you presented as well as Tauroneo / Jill help on the left side as well.

and for 1-6-2 1 turn longer is better than wasting a boss kill on Tauro but Tauro is much more reliable than Sothe ^^'

I'd also like to note that the difference is almost nill since it barely does anything to help him (as I said at best it gets him slightly closer to doubling cats). He still needs to be greater than Level 10 to do that anyway. It'll take more than that just to get him there. It also, once again, can cost you to eat through Iron Knife forges. Money isn't tight as hell but it's not an unlimited resource.

but I'd prefer giving the boss kill to Jill if i'm taking 3 turns.

I guess to be fair this is plausible assuming Jill can actually reach the boss on Turn 3 and the boss isn't healed.

Edited May 10, 2011 by _M_

[Paperblade]

I find it incredibly odd that the same train of logic that got Mia into high tier (plow her with highly contested resources because she uses them well) is not getting Titania into top tier. Of course, Interceptor has a convenient reason for that; that is, he has some arbitrary criterion that prevents units who require resources from entering top tier, yet he makes an exception for Haar. And then, when confronted with the fact that an unwinged Titania still dominates the game, which is his reason for why Haar is top tier, he chooses to attack my playthrough instead of actually contesting that point. Furthermore, the arguments of Ike not being a great unit have only been addressed with comments along the lines of "go make your own maximum efficiency tier list." If anything, the simple fact that Titania can help us exceed our expectations of efficiency on this tier list should put her into top tier.

[smash] (9:06:50 PM): i dont know what to say that dondon didnt already say

[smash] (9:06:52 PM): at the moment anyway

[smash] (9:06:53 PM): lolol

dondon confirmed for brawlsmash

Edited May 10, 2011 by Paperblade

[Florete]

The problem is it eats into your funds. Now I'm not saying the GMs and DB will suddenly become poor with this, but it is a cost worth considering. Consider also that Sothe is pretty much a black hole anyway: not a whole lot happens when you put that experience into him. Even if he miraculously made it to where he doubles Cats, it at best gives him two shots at killing it in one hit. He still has to double Tigers.

What I mean is this still costs something. A turn and the resources of a knife forge. That's something to consider when Taur only needs roughly a not-really-used Javelin or Hand Axe.

The cost is piddling amount. This feels more like nitpicking. Sothe can also use the boost in the later part 1 maps, and you failed to address the boost Jill potentially gets.

Aside from maybe Ike, they're much more unique to the team than Sothe is. Remember, you get Volug who's only weakness is he lacks two range. Volug has +2 gun move on Sothe and enough offense to tear through things anyway, not to mention his durability is pretty high up there. Sothe also has to share contributions with Tauroneo who saves a lot, Jill who also does, Nailah, and BK. Sothe isn't pulling a lot of the heavy lifting after 1-5 like these guys are. Titania and Haar are pulling the heavy lifting. Ike does to an extent.

I disagree. Tauroneo in particular I think you are overrating. His 6 move combined with 1-6-1's terrain makes it hard for him to do a whole lot past nabbing reinforcements, and then 1-6-2 has already been covered with Sothe, again, able to deal with it quite well. 1-7 will mostly be without the LEA (at least controlled) because they take a while to recruit and actually could slow you down to recruit, in addition to the fact that you don't need to talk to them at all to recruit them. 1-8 is too big, really, so while Nailah might be "better" Sothe is still handling a completely different portion of the map, and she still never gets 1-2 range. Black Knight just has mobility issues.

On the other hand, Haar is great, no doubt. I wouldn't go against moving him up. But how is Titania and Ike's case here much different from Sothe's? Haar is the dominant force here. Titania and Ike are great, no doubt, but they are two, and the GM's even have superior support units in Mia, Shinon, Boyd, etc, in addition to two healers and Physic access. And, if I really need to say, potential access to more money, stat boosters, and BEXP. The constant influx of good units (Ranulf, Reyson, Hawks, potentially Tanith/Marcia, etc.) is quite similar to how it is in the DB except the GMs are already tough enough.

If he's not used, he's merely a negative under the implication that he doesn't do anything for the team. It's like Roy. He's forced, but who gives a fuck what he does after like Chapter 7? Sothe does squat to save turns in Part 4.

It really doesn't matter. Sothe once again does nothing in Part 4. In other words, he can be either neutral or negative. There is no positive.

Since was does doing nothing = negative? That makes no sense. It is, in fact, positive, because any contribution he makes, no matter how small, comes for free, whether it be finding items or killing Bishops or whatever. I'm not about to try saying he's still knocking heads over with his amazing combat in part 4, but saying he's negative is, quite honestly, stupid.

[Colonel M]

The cost is piddling amount. This feels more like nitpicking. Sothe can also use the boost in the later part 1 maps, and you failed to address the boost Jill potentially gets.

You're a little late on this:

I guess to be fair this is plausible assuming Jill can actually reach the boss on Turn 3 and the boss isn't healed.

Queen_Elincia pointed it out. The cost also isn't a piddling amount since you have to burn through nearly an entire forge to do it. It's a cost either way, but it can be a reward with Jill.

I disagree. Tauroneo in particular I think you are overrating. His 6 move combined with 1-6-1's terrain makes it hard for him to do a whole lot past nabbing reinforcements

Ferry the fatass. It's real simple.

and then 1-6-2 has already been covered with Sothe, again, able to deal with it quite well.

Though the cost is, once again, a turn + knife forges. Or gambling on skill activation with Adept and Resolve (which means Zihark goes without Adept for longer than just 1-E).

1-7 will mostly be without the LEA (at least controlled) because they take a while to recruit and actually could slow you down to recruit, in addition to the fact that you don't need to talk to them at all to recruit them.

It's best to recruit them. Maurim in particular smashes the boss to pieces and Vika is useful in her own ways. Tormod can help with sniping at two range at least. Unless you want to do something like 5-6HKO the boss with Sothe.

1-8 is too big, really, so while Nailah might be "better" Sothe is still handling a completely different portion of the map, and she still never gets 1-2 range. Black Knight just has mobility issues.

Burger King wipes out an entire throne room (and Jarod) while Sothe does what... honestly Tormod can do with forged tomes in 1-8. Nailah is also a key person to carrying BK in 1-E while still playing second fiddle to fighting.

On the other hand, Haar is great, no doubt. I wouldn't go against moving him up. But how is Titania and Ike's case here much different from Sothe's? Haar is the dominant force here. Titania and Ike are great, no doubt, but they are two, and the GM's even have superior support units in Mia, Shinon, Boyd, etc, in addition to two healers and Physic access. And, if I really need to say, potential access to more money, stat boosters, and BEXP. The constant influx of good units (Ranulf, Reyson, Hawks, potentially Tanith/Marcia, etc.) is quite similar to how it is in the DB except the GMs are already tough enough.

The problem is none of these units share what Haar and Titania have unique attributes of. Haar can pull a lot of the work, but much like Sothe's situation where he does help with the strings, he can't do it all. For example, you noted that Sothe handles a part of the map in 1-8. That would be an example where he's a pillar unit. 1-6-1 is also an example where he holds a lot of weight. Greil Mercenary maps require more than just brute force though, hence why the mediocre pile of Mia, Shinon, Boyd, Oscar don't make the entire cut. Once again, can any of these units:

- Boast 9 Mov without Celerity

- Have Canto to re-move

- Hammertime Generals (this is pretty important in Part 3 from what I found)

- Be quick enough to double the rest of the relevant enemies (fuck Swordmasters)

- ORKO at 1-2 Range

No one except Haar fulfills all of these requirements (and Haar can be shaky on the last one, but he flies). Titania is just as unique as Haar is. She's only missing one key element that stops her from even becoming the best of the best. Almost every Greil Mercenary misses 3 or more of these.

Sothe has some unique traits (aside from availability). He has Beast Killer, he has Thief properties, and he has good 1-2 range in Part 1. But notice that's about it. You have Volug with +2 Mov, wide enough capacity to do whatever anyway, Chest Keys existing, and slightly higher durability. Zihark can somewhat stay steady with ORKOing and can sort of cheat with Adept and critical hits. His only weak area is 2 range, which is okay. It's passable. Naliah and Black Knight just do too much in 1-E in comparison to Sothe, and the LEA do as well (well Tormod does lesser stuff to be honest). Now watch in Part 3. What does Nolan have?

- Kills everything in 1 hit with 1-2 range in 3-6 and 3-13 (Beastfoe)

- Tarvos

- Can have enough AS to double enemies later on

- Enough Atk / Durability parameters in case he whiffs doubles

Then Jill has flight. Taur also rejoins in 3-12 and 3-13 and does some things more than what Sothe probably would do, since Sothe can't really embrace the south side of 3-13 very well (hence why I said he plays cockblock).

Yes Titania has to share some of her contributions, but they still hold a unique property with them. Note that Reyson only duplicates the units that he Vigors, then the Hawks require one with an Energy Drop and still miss out on Generals. They trade 2 range and Hammertime for flight.

Since was does doing nothing = negative? That makes no sense. It is, in fact, positive, because any contribution he makes, no matter how small, comes for free, whether it be finding items or killing Bishops or whatever. I'm not about to try saying he's still knocking heads over with his amazing combat in part 4, but saying he's negative is, quite honestly, stupid.

His negative is doing anything other than twiddling his thumbs and maybe shoving / finding items in Part 4. His negative is that he adds +0 to saving turns in Part 4. Even Sanaki can save turns in Part 4. SANAKI. The only units that contribute likely +0 turns that are forced and semi-untrained are................................ Volke, Oliver, Stefan. If it seriously makes you think of the situation better, consider Sothe's contribution in Part 4 to be a net zero. Any unit that is at least forced besides Sothe, Volke, Oliver, and Stefan (the only reason they are being excluded is because they are not even available from the beginning of the chapter, let alone Part 4) can likely find some way to contribute to the team. At best he is neutral.

Edited May 10, 2011 by _M_

[Florete]

You're a little late on this:

Queen_Elincia pointed it out. The cost also isn't a piddling amount since you have to burn through nearly an entire forge to do it. It's a cost either way, but it can be a reward with Jill.

What Q_E apparently failed to mention is how Jill actually kills the guy. She's not doubling him (even with a transfer) and he has range. If Sothe is supposed to weaken him, nothing really changes except that Sothe doesn't get the kill, but he was still necessary for it to happen and you still burn through that forge. As for taking the kill, yeah, Jill can take it. That's probably better in the end. But Sothe still did the grunt work.

Ferry the fatass. It's real simple.

And lose two player phases and one enemy phase for Jill. Spectacular.

I'm not saying not to do it, but it isn't as convenient as you seem to want it to be.

It's best to recruit them. Maurim in particular smashes the boss to pieces and Vika is useful in her own ways. Tormod can help with sniping at two range at least. Unless you want to do something like 5-6HKO the boss with Sothe.

Try again. 19 Str Sothe with Micaiah support and Beastkiller 4HKOs. That's enemy phase + player phase and Micaiah can Seize.

Burger King wipes out an entire throne room (and Jarod) while Sothe does what... honestly Tormod can do with forged tomes in 1-8. Nailah is also a key person to carrying BK in 1-E while still playing second fiddle to fighting.

BK must first make it to the throne room. Yes, Nailah can do this, but she will still need a path cleared for her, and this is where Sothe (and Tormod) come in. I'm not trying to say he's amazing here, but he is still important.

The problem is none of these units share what Haar and Titania have unique attributes of. Haar can pull a lot of the work, but much like Sothe's situation where he does help with the strings, he can't do it all. For example, you noted that Sothe handles a part of the map in 1-8. That would be an example where he's a pillar unit. 1-6-1 is also an example where he holds a lot of weight. Greil Mercenary maps require more than just brute force though, hence why the mediocre pile of Mia, Shinon, Boyd, Oscar don't make the entire cut. Once again, can any of these units:

- Boast 9 Mov without Celerity

- Have Canto to re-move

- Hammertime Generals (this is pretty important in Part 3 from what I found)

- Be quick enough to double the rest of the relevant enemies (fuck Swordmasters)

- ORKO at 1-2 Range

No one except Haar fulfills all of these requirements (and Haar can be shaky on the last one, but he flies). Titania is just as unique as Haar is. She's only missing one key element that stops her from even becoming the best of the best. Almost every Greil Mercenary misses 3 or more of these.

Remember that I am not arguing against Haar here. I am perfectly fine with him retaining his tier gap by going into the next tier. But while Titania misses flight, she also misses the invincibility, 3-5, 3-7, and part of 3-11.

And as you said, these units can't handle everything alone. That's why the support units you listed are still good units (look at High tier). I don't see how Titania or Ike's impact is comparatively that much better than Sothe's, especially since Ike lacks most of the qualities in that list.

Sothe has some unique traits (aside from availability). He has Beast Killer, he has Thief properties, and he has good 1-2 range in Part 1. But notice that's about it. You have Volug with +2 Mov, wide enough capacity to do whatever anyway, Chest Keys existing, and slightly higher durability. Zihark can somewhat stay steady with ORKOing and can sort of cheat with Adept and critical hits. His only weak area is 2 range, which is okay. It's passable. Naliah and Black Knight just do too much in 1-E in comparison to Sothe, and the LEA do as well (well Tormod does lesser stuff to be honest).

But each of them has pros and cons, just like in the Mercenaries. If anything, Haar existing should downplay his team more than the likes of Nailah downplay Sothe because he has everything while no one in part 1 does.

- Kills everything in 1 hit with 1-2 range in 3-6 and 3-13 (Beastfoe)

The issues surrounding Beastfoe have been addressed multiple times. You're unlikely to even have it without Sothe and anyone can use it. This is not a full point for Nolan.

- Tarvos

- Enough Atk / Durability parameters in case he whiffs doubles

These are 1 point, not 2.

Taur also rejoins in 3-12 and 3-13 and does some things more than what Sothe probably would do, since Sothe can't really embrace the south side of 3-13 very well (hence why I said he plays cockblock).

No. Tauroneo is almost worthless in 3-12 because of where he starts, and I don't think he's the one killing Ike, either. Sothe isn't, but Tauroneo isn't the one to boast here.

Yes Titania has to share some of her contributions, but they still hold a unique property with them. Note that Reyson only duplicates the units that he Vigors, then the Hawks require one with an Energy Drop and still miss out on Generals. They trade 2 range and Hammertime for flight.

At this point I don't even really understand this "unique" point and how it applies (or doesn't) to Reyson and the Hawks. Saying Reyson "only" duplicates units? What does that mean?

His negative is doing anything other than twiddling his thumbs and maybe shoving / finding items in Part 4. His negative is that he adds +0 to saving turns in Part 4. Even Sanaki can save turns in Part 4. SANAKI. The only units that contribute likely +0 turns that are forced and semi-untrained are................................ Volke, Oliver, Stefan. If it seriously makes you think of the situation better, consider Sothe's contribution in Part 4 to be a net zero. Any unit that is at least forced besides Sothe can likely find some way to contribute to the team. At best he is neutral.

It's a good thing you edited this before I called you out on the bullshit that 0 = -1. But it is not zero. What part of "forced" are you missing? 4-P and 4-3 are both route, so Sothe can kill a random Bishop and he's a net positive. He can support Micaiah, which can allow her to heal 2 more HP, and that unit can be lowered to 1-2 HP later and he just saved that unit's ass. He can find the Laguz Gem in the desert for use by someone like Janaff, Dragonfoe to help break through to Dheginsea, and the White Gem to help us splurge on forges. It is small, yes, and I'm not trying to seriously make it a part of his case to go up (you brought it up), but don't give me this crap about him being "negative."

[RNG Princess]

Well one time I managed to get her kill the boss in 3 turns but Tauro had missed a hit on him and I happened to have a strong enough forge to give her the kill, but Sothe is the right person to weaken the boss for Jill ^^' if you're taking 3 turns why not? She uses the experience much better than he does, because he's a gray hole (not blackk hole because experience on him isn't useless like BK for example)

I think in dondon's vid he had Volug clear the way for Nailah by shoving an enemy (he had pass) I did that too and it worked fine, Sothe is perfect for taking out mages/priests or getting chests.

The issues surrounding Beastfoe have been addressed multiple times. You're unlikely to even have it without Sothe and anyone can use it. This is not a full point for Nolan.

Nolan can't get credit for taking beastfoe? I think he should, he's the best candidate for it because of his defense. Anyone can use it but that doesn't take credit away from Haar using a speedwing or Titania because anyone can use that too.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Colonel M]

What Q_E apparently failed to mention is how Jill actually kills the guy. She's not doubling him (even with a transfer) and he has range. If Sothe is supposed to weaken him, nothing really changes except that Sothe doesn't get the kill, but he was still necessary for it to happen and you still burn through that forge. As for taking the kill, yeah, Jill can take it. That's probably better in the end. But Sothe still did the grunt work.

I already knew this, and I knew Sothe would only get credit for the grunt work. The cost is a turn and the knife forge. The reward is Jill getting the EXP and Sothe gets CEXP that doesn't change the inevitable. Wonderful.

And lose two player phases and one enemy phase for Jill. Spectacular.

I'm not saying not to do it, but it isn't as convenient as you seem to want it to be.

It's the only way to clear the map before the Pegasi reinforcements arrive from what I know of. Otherwise you burn up around 2 turns.

Try again. 19 Str Sothe with Micaiah support and Beastkiller 4HKOs. That's enemy phase + player phase and Micaiah can Seize.

Sothe has to go digging for a Master Seal. It's just more efficient to recruit the LEA (seriously they're on the way to the throne) and have them help pull the weight.

BK must first make it to the throne room. Yes, Nailah can do this, but she will still need a path cleared for her, and this is where Sothe (and Tormod) come in. I'm not trying to say he's amazing here, but he is still important.

Actually it's Volug using Pass + Shove. Though Sothe is part of the helping with combat, so is Maurim here and Tormod possibly.

Remember that I am not arguing against Haar here. I am perfectly fine with him retaining his tier gap by going into the next tier. But while Titania misses flight, she also misses the invincibility, 3-5, 3-7, and part of 3-11.

And as you said, these units can't handle everything alone. That's why the support units you listed are still good units (look at High tier). I don't see how Titania or Ike's impact is comparatively that much better than Sothe's, especially since Ike lacks most of the qualities in that list.

For all we know Ike may need to move down, as well as Ike (T).

I've already addressed Titania's "invincibility". It's called Vulneraries and Concoctions. My playthrough had - trouble with her surviving. It doesn't take rocket science, and Haar still can't cruise control everywhere (note in 3-4 there's that Wyrmslayer Swordmaster. A true dick). Let's review what Sothe does to Titania:

1-2 Sothe once again merely goes for the Energy Drop. No real turns saved from him really.

1-3 Sothe pulls a lot of weight, though recruiting Aran requires some gruntwork on the other end (see Nolan and Ilyana). Sothe obtains most credit here.

1-4 is a Rout that requires a lot with Sothe finding treasure and recruiting items with Nolan and co. taking the south side. Sothe obtains most credit here too.

1-5 is self-improvement. No credit given.

1-6 complies with Sothe nailing some things with 1-2 range and being a possible candidate for the drop in 1-6-2 (quick question here: can Jill reach the boss after he moves?). Sothe takes some credit here for 1-6-1 and can be credited in 1-6-2 but with a possible turn count / knife forge cost (though the return is a boss kill on Jill). For that, we'll call it about even.

1-7 involves Sothe going over to his pals and recruiting the LEA. He snipes upward on the cliffs then goes to the Master Seal. Sothe obtains little credit here.

1-8 can be done by shoving Sothe through the swamp and nuking the Mages. While it can also be done by Tormod, I think it sort of costs turns (I'm not sure but we'll assume it does). So we can attribute to Sothe getting about a 1/3 of credit here.

1-E only has Sothe to tag along for the chests and clear maybe 1 or 2 shoddy spots. I'll give partial credit.

3-6 only gives some credit due to his usual credentials.

3-12 is "forget it". Most he might do is FalcoKnight.

3-13 is him choking.

Part 4 is nil.

Then Titania has:

3-P where she helps ferry units closer to the seize spot. She gets maybe a 1/3 of credit here since Ike, Oscar, and others like Boyd / Soren / Rhys doing minor things (Oscar and Ike doing a lot of the grunt work). Gatrie can also be ferried I guess.

3-1 involves just about everyone, though Titania can hit someone and move further to find units in the fog of war. Not a huge advantage, but a notable contribution for Titania since some enemies are pretty stubborn.

3-2 involves Haar ferrying while Titania does self-improvement. No credit.

3-3 involves Haar ferrying Gatrie north while Titania is bombing forward and burning her supply source and the other managing the lower end supplies. Since like Titania Haar is the only unit that can do this, Titania receives a lot of credit.

3-4 involves plowing forward to help Ranulf make it to the seize spot, so Titania is pretty useful since she can charge ahead of the group. While she fails to climb ledges, it isn't completely necessary to do barring some circumstances.

3-5 involves plowing through a couple Generals and disposing of two Paladins while obtaining the Energy Drop. It's only natural Titania gets some credit here, if not most since she is the reason to plow through the Generals.

3-7 is self-improvement. Well not for her.

3-8 involves the hawks, Haar, and Titania blitzing forward while the foot units pick up the scrap heaps. Titania can go on the left side herself (the far left) and counterkill reliably with her forged Hand Axe.

3-10 has instances where, once again, you have to bomb through Generals and a lot of the work involves Canto users going toward the north end of the map.

3-11 is cleared by fliers. No comment there. Best Titania does is help on Turn 1.

3-E she helps rout some of the enemies. Nothing huge I can think of.

Then in 4-1 she's able to help clear either side of the map and 4-3 only requires a Rescue use to put her on the top level to help out. I don't need to re-hash 4-E.

While her contributions slowly become easier to match, she has one perk: she's always consistent to the team. She has a few gutter moments (like no flight in 3-11), but no matter what she contributes positively to the team. Even in an instance like 3-11 where she can at least help on the first couple turns.

If we count the # of maps Sothe contributes and Titania contributes, while their impacts in each vary, it equals to maybe 7 chapters to Sothe when he's notable (I'd argue 8) and Titania who has around 9 + 2 from Endgame. As far as finding "The Replaceables", Sothe cannot be duplicated in 1-2 to an extent, 1-3, and 1-4. 1-6 cannot be completely duplicated by him, and 1-8 cannot be completely duplicated by him. Neither can some of his functions in 3-6, but most of them don't require him to participate in combat (just Beast Killer). Titania only has about 3 maps where she's not useful and can be replicated. Once again, her only carbon copy is Haar, and since Haar cannot magically be in two places at once, this is where Titania comes in and sweeps up what Haar cannot reach.

But each of them has pros and cons, just like in the Mercenaries. If anything, Haar existing should downplay his team more than the likes of Nailah downplay Sothe because he has everything while no one in part 1 does.

I'm sorry to say, but Sothe still cannot "solo" Part 1. He can at least hold a lot of the fort, but you still have other units like Nolan and Volug who exist for a long time (and Nolan exists for a chapter longer and holds that chapter together like glue!). Yes Sothe's offense is difficult to compare to. Volug still lacks 2 range as does Nailah. BK exists for one chapter (with Sothe present). LEA have Olivi Grass to burn (barring Tormod) and they don't hold his availability.

Haar existing only downplays so much. Again, just like Sothe's team, Titania's team relies on other units. Sothe's team relies on some of his teammates more than Titania does. Titania's team relies on Haar countless times, but Haar also relies on Titania to cover the areas he cannot. The same goes for Sothe. The difference boils down to Sothe not being the major pillar after 1-5. Titania still holds second place just about forever, and first place in 3-P and 3-1. She only loses literally in 3-2, 3-7 (which barely counts if we're not nailing Sothe in Part 4), and 3-11. She weans more in Part 4, but unlike Sothe doesn't wean to the point where she does almost zilch.

The issues surrounding Beastfoe have been addressed multiple times. You're unlikely to even have it without Sothe and anyone can use it. This is not a full point for Nolan.

No one can duplicate what Nolan can do with it either. Once again, no other unit can reliably OHKO, brag Nolan's durability, and do it all at 2 range sometimes.

These are 1 point, not 2.

No, they are two separate points. Take Aran for example who whiffs doubling period. He actually has enough Atk if he was 20/whatthefuckever to 2HKO. He also has the durability to do it. Sothe has the AS to double some of the enemies. What is Sothe missing? Well, the other two important factors of combat.

No. Tauroneo is almost worthless in 3-12 because of where he starts

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

You cannot be freaking serious. Where Tauroneo starts is perfect in 3-12. He can snipe down the cliffs and any dumbfuck that climbs up there gets smashed to bits in two hits. He's definitely help the kill count here. Nolan and Jill aren't doing everything on the right side you know.

and I don't think he's the one killing Ike, either. Sothe isn't, but Tauroneo isn't the one to boast here.

Taur also can assist in 3-13 since Jill and Nolan's durability does not equate to invincibility. Furthermore, Tauroneo can also join in the reindeer games since he's quite the magical person himself. He simply must Card Ike on the turn that Ike gets killed.

At this point I don't even really understand this "unique" point and how it applies (or doesn't) to Reyson and the Hawks. Saying Reyson "only" duplicates units? What does that mean?

Reyson does nothing more but vigor units. He obviously gets credited for it, but not full credit since it was also the unit (in this case units) that completed the work. He is merely the hand to the hammer that forces the nail down. The hawks once again are explained: they help in various ways in the later maps where they are unique from Titania. They just once again cannot replicate everything Titania does, just like the reverse. Her lack of flight prevents her from participating much in 3-11 for example and shooting over walls in 3-8, though the latter isn't a grave issue. The hawks also are good in Part 4 but they have a disadvantage with their lack of 2 range in some areas (the bow weakness is also a minor issue here and there) and their gauge.

It's a good thing you edited this before I called you out on the bullshit that 0 = -1. But it is not zero. What part of "forced" are you missing? 4-P and 4-3 are both route, so Sothe can kill a random Bishop and he's a net positive. He can support Micaiah, which can allow her to heal 2 more HP, and that unit can be lowered to 1-2 HP later and he just saved that unit's ass. He can find the Laguz Gem in the desert for use by someone like Janaff, Dragonfoe to help break through to Dheginsea, and the White Gem to help us splurge on forges. It is small, yes, and I'm not trying to seriously make it a part of his case to go up (you brought it up), but don't give me this crap about him being "negative."

First off humor me this: how is Sothe killing a Bishop if he can't even survive two to three hits from the Paladin escapade? There's one Bishop in 4-P and 4-3 Sothe moves like a slug. Recover almost nullifies the second argument (like the only thing it affects is Physic but with Concoctions and Vulneraries existing this part is useless). Laguz Stone is fairly worthless. Janaff would have to get to SS Strike before being useful to be thought of in 4-E, Laguz Stones also carry the same effect as Laguz Gems (being able to stay transformed forever is maybe useful for 4-E-1 at best), Dragonfoe is pretty useless since one unit can charge at it with Wyrmslayer, KO it, then just have the Rescue Staff Party do the rest, and then there are other treasures that are found in 4-4 which by the way Titania can also take some credit for finding if we feel like giving her the Chest Keys and finding the stuff. There's little use for forges anyway since the weapons need to last, at worst, through 4-E-1 and you should still have plenty of money to supply a few Silver forges / Hand Axe forges.

Again, he's a negative in comparison to other units because said other units contribute far greater than he does. Titania shitstomps him by this part for example. Almost every competent unit that is forced does. Sothe's penalty isn't that he contributes negatively once again, it's that he contributes nothing useful. You literally had to grasp at straws to find what he can do to find in Part 4. You can't just magically handwaive his Part 4 performance, or should I say lack thereof.

Also, keep in mind the main reason I keep arguing about "unique qualities" is because this is how Interceptor interpreted a Top Tier unit (with a bonus of being good out of the box). At least something to that extent.

Edited May 10, 2011 by _M_

[RNG Princess]

@ _M_ after recruiting LEA Vika can rescue Sothe and then drop him to master seal spot

Also I think you're underrating Sothe on 1-2, Nolan can't handle many enemies and archers are dangerous for Laura

Edited May 10, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Colonel M]

Also I think you're underrating Sothe on 1-2, Nolan can't handle many enemies and archers are dangerous for Laura

1-2 isn't as bad as it looks. Edward can handle the Soldiers just fine while Nolan goes north. It's funny, but Nolan + Leonardo can almost kill a Fighter. The Archers are easy to keep away from in this map from what I examined too. Nolan handles just enough to help the team press forward before Sothe arrives and kills maybe a couple of enemies that block Laura's way.

[RNG Princess]

1-2 isn't as bad as it looks. Edward can handle the Soldiers just fine while Nolan goes north. It's funny, but Nolan + Leonardo can almost kill a Fighter. The Archers are easy to keep away from in this map from what I examined too. Nolan handles just enough to help the team press forward before Sothe arrives and kills maybe a couple of enemies that block Laura's way.

Well Sothe helps everything run smoothly otherwise its a bitting nail experience ^^' and if Nolan misses a hit we're doomed

[Colonel M]

Well Sothe helps everything run smoothly otherwise its a bitting nail experience ^^' and if Nolan misses a hit we're doomed

Well, if anyone misses we're practically doomed. Nolan has to help keep the team together before Sothe arrives though. I mean, I know hit rates are kind of dicey but there's no real control of that aside from sitting in a corner and waiting.

[RNG Princess]

Well, if anyone misses we're practically doomed. Nolan has to help keep the team together before Sothe arrives though. I mean, I know hit rates are kind of dicey but there's no real control of that aside from sitting in a corner and waiting.

Oh yes I agree its all up to Micaiah, Nolan, Eddie, and Leo to keep everything in shape and keep that gameover from happening. It especially falls down to Eddie and Nolan but when Sothe steps in at least the team doesn't have to worry about Laura dying on a soldier or archer. ^^'

Edited May 10, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Seven Deadly Sins]

The issues surrounding Beastfoe have been addressed multiple times. You're unlikely to even have it without Sothe and anyone can use it. This is not a full point for Nolan.

Again, is this before or after we put Marcia in Top Tier for recruiting Haar?

Just because a unit has a higher chance of getting a resource than others doesn't mean he gets credit for any contributions that other people make with this item. This isn't even a case like Matthew in FE7 ranked where he literally is the only person that can get the Silver Card. You're trying to give Sothe credit for maybe making you roll the dice a little less in that chapter and suddenly calling it a win for Sothe? Seems a little shoddy to me. You can't really play the "this has been addressed multiple times" card here when the only addressing that's gone on is you waving your arms about something as silly as crediting someone for giving you a higher chance (not even guaranteed, just significantly higher) of finding an item that the character in question doesn't even have the cred to use himself.

Giving Sothe credit for the Beastfoe users' performance opens up a whole nasty can of worms that don't need to be examined here quite yet. I'm shaky on the whole Sothe thing, but this just sticks out like a sore thumb for me. This is one of the ugliest arguments that can float around in FE in general, and is just another example of "fuck tiering thieves".

[Florete]

I already knew this, and I knew Sothe would only get credit for the grunt work. The cost is a turn and the knife forge. The reward is Jill getting the EXP and Sothe gets CEXP that doesn't change the inevitable. Wonderful.

So in the end, this is better for Sothe than you made it out to be. Yes, wonderful.

Sothe has to go digging for a Master Seal.

What for? You should have been able to get the ones in 1-4 and 1-5 easily enough, and you shouldn't need more than that.

(seriously they're on the way to the throne)

Uh, what? No, seriously, if I'm getting ahead of them in a draft run, they are not "on the way." Both times I've actually tried to do this fast, Sothe would have had to slow down to recruit them.

I've already addressed Titania's "invincibility". It's called Vulneraries and Concoctions.

Lol? It's not close to invincibility if one needs to waste their player phases self-healing. Try again. I'm not saying she's easy to kill, not at all, but it's clear that Haar can almost always take more enemies.

1-5 is self-improvement. No credit given.

I wouldn't say no credit. You still need everyone to live through it, something Sothe is a big help with. Turns saved is not the only way to measure usefulness.

(quick question here: can Jill reach the boss after he moves?).

Sothe can reach a spot below the ledge in a Thicket by turn 2 with a Shove that the boss will attack from and he'll stay right there. Jill can surely reach him.

Sothe takes some credit here for 1-6-1 and can be credited in 1-6-2 but with a possible turn count / knife forge cost (though the return is a boss kill on Jill). For that, we'll call it about even.

What does "even" mean here?

3-12 is "forget it". Most he might do is FalcoKnight.

I don't see the issue here. He's no front liner, but no one is reliably KOing most of the enemies here. His ranged attacking can surely be of use.

3-P where she helps ferry units closer to the seize spot. She gets maybe a 1/3 of credit here since Ike, Oscar, and others like Boyd / Soren / Rhys doing minor things (Oscar and Ike doing a lot of the grunt work). Gatrie can also be ferried I guess.

Wait, what? Why is she ferrying when she could be fighting? We just have to clear the way for Skrimir. No need to ferry anyone.

Overall, while I agree that Titania is a great unit, nowhere in your ch-by-ch analysis did I see a place where she makes a seriously game-breaking difference. She is definitely a preferable unit in places like 3-3 and 3-5, but I wouldn't put it at any more value than certain maps of Sothe's.

I'm sorry to say, but Sothe still cannot "solo" Part 1.

Oh crap, I was totally banking on that, too.

Try again.

Haar existing only downplays so much. Again, just like Sothe's team, Titania's team relies on other units. Sothe's team relies on some of his teammates more than Titania does.

I'd agree with this, but you're mistaking the actual meaning. Sothe's team relies on more people, yes, and he is one of them. Titania's team does not really rely on anyone in particular except Haar most of the time because many of them are competent units as is. This isn't an advantage for Titania.

Titania's team relies on Haar countless times, but Haar also relies on Titania to cover the areas he cannot. The same goes for Sothe. The difference boils down to Sothe not being the major pillar after 1-5. Titania still holds second place just about forever, and first place in 3-P and 3-1. She only loses literally in 3-2, 3-7 (which barely counts if we're not nailing Sothe in Part 4), and 3-11. She weans more in Part 4, but unlike Sothe doesn't wean to the point where she does almost zilch.

I agree with this, too, but "second place" is only worth as far above the next places as she is, which just isn't that high most of the time. You overestimate how irreplaceable she is.

No one can duplicate what Nolan can do with it either. Once again, no other unit can reliably OHKO, brag Nolan's durability, and do it all at 2 range sometimes.

So, if anything, Sothe and Nolan split credit for what Nolan does with Beastfoe. Nolan does it, Sothe allows him to.

No, they are two separate points.

Then list them correctly.

-atk

-def

Not

-atk/def

-Tarvos

Tarvos is what makes the atk/def. It is nothing aside from them.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

You cannot be freaking serious. Where Tauroneo starts is perfect in 3-12. He can snipe down the cliffs and any dumbfuck that climbs up there gets smashed to bits in two hits. He's definitely help the kill count here. Nolan and Jill aren't doing everything on the right side you know.

Truly laughable.

I am freaking serious, you nutjob. Have you used Tauroneo on 3-12 lately? Or have you tried not using him? Because guess what, those Snipers that start there do whatever he would do just as well. He is nothing special aside from maybe finishing off some Pegasi. At best he'll help the kill count by, like, 2 on his own. I doubt he saves any turns.

First off humor me this: how is Sothe killing a Bishop if he can't even survive two to three hits from the Paladin escapade?

Oh, I wonder? Maybe...get rid of the goddamned Paladins? So hard. When did I say I'm sending in Sothe to kill just anything? There's a reason I singled out weak enemies.

You literally had to grasp at straws to find what he can do to find in Part 4. You can't just magically handwaive his Part 4 performance, or should I say lack thereof.

Fuck you. Seriously, fuck you. Before you came in, did you see me hyping his part 4? Of course not. I know it blows. Who the hell do you think I am? You're the one who came in and started shouting, "DURR HURR SOTHE'S PART 4 IS TOTAL NEGATIVE" until now when you finally decided to explain it in a better fashion but still simultaneously threw this bullshit at me.

And yes, I can hand wave it. It's called "He does nothing." Treat it like he's not deployed if you need to. This is what we call neutral. It is not getting him anywhere, but it's not worsening his case personally. You can also see it like an availability advantage for Titania. Or is he "negative" for not being around in part 3 GM?

Also, keep in mind the main reason I keep arguing about "unique qualities" is because this is how Interceptor interpreted a Top Tier unit (with a bonus of being good out of the box). At least something to that extent.

Interceptor is a cool guy, but since when is his interpretation the end one?

Again, is this before or after we put Marcia in Top Tier for recruiting Haar?

Just because a unit has a higher chance of getting a resource than others doesn't mean he gets credit for any contributions that other people make with this item. This isn't even a case like Matthew in FE7 ranked where he literally is the only person that can get the Silver Card. You're trying to give Sothe credit for maybe making you roll the dice a little less in that chapter and suddenly calling it a win for Sothe? Seems a little shoddy to me. You can't really play the "this has been addressed multiple times" card here when the only addressing that's gone on is you waving your arms about something as silly as crediting someone for giving you a higher chance (not even guaranteed, just significantly higher) of finding an item that the character in question doesn't even have the cred to use himself.

Giving Sothe credit for the Beastfoe users' performance opens up a whole nasty can of worms that don't need to be examined here quite yet. I'm shaky on the whole Sothe thing, but this just sticks out like a sore thumb for me. This is one of the ugliest arguments that can float around in FE in general, and is just another example of "fuck tiering thieves".

If you would read my post more clearly, you'd notice I never said it was a clear win for Sothe, but less of an advantage for Nolan than M made it out to be. I don't agree with giving him full credit for whatever it is used for because someone else still needs to be good enough to put it to said use. It's more that he gets partial credit.

Recruitment is in a different vein for this. It's similar to how Q_E was wondering why Ilyana didn't credit for carting earlier. Sothe finds Beastfoe by his own merits while Marcia recruiting Haar is more like an event than an ability. In the end it depends on tier list standards, and we've always canceled recruitment but counted Thief utility, so that applies here, too.

[Anouleth]

Again, is this before or after we put Marcia in Top Tier for recruiting Haar?

Just because a unit has a higher chance of getting a resource than others doesn't mean he gets credit for any contributions that other people make with this item. This isn't even a case like Matthew in FE7 ranked where he literally is the only person that can get the Silver Card. You're trying to give Sothe credit for maybe making you roll the dice a little less in that chapter and suddenly calling it a win for Sothe? Seems a little shoddy to me. You can't really play the "this has been addressed multiple times" card here when the only addressing that's gone on is you waving your arms about something as silly as crediting someone for giving you a higher chance (not even guaranteed, just significantly higher) of finding an item that the character in question doesn't even have the cred to use himself.

Giving Sothe credit for the Beastfoe users' performance opens up a whole nasty can of worms that don't need to be examined here quite yet. I'm shaky on the whole Sothe thing, but this just sticks out like a sore thumb for me. This is one of the ugliest arguments that can float around in FE in general, and is just another example of "fuck tiering thieves".

Yes, because this is the first tier list EVER to give thieves credit for finding hidden items. I'm not exaggerating when I say that every single tier list from FEs 6 through 9 give thieves full credit for hidden items. This is how it's always been done, and I think that it's a double standard that when it comes to Sothe, suddenly we don't want to give credit anymore.

(And as I pointed out earlier, if you want to get the item reliably (as in, with a 95% or more chance) with another unit, it would take approximately 22 more turns than doing so with Sothe. I'm perfectly happy to accept that Nolan can pick up the item as well, as long as it's conceded that Sothe is saving us 22 turns in 1-4.)

The problem is it eats into your funds. Now I'm not saying the GMs and DB will suddenly become poor with this, but it is a cost worth considering.

I'm sorry, I didn't get the memo. Since when could Nolan/Jill/Aran/Edward kill anything without a forge? Unless you plan on beating Part 1 with solely Volug and a brief cameo from Bronze Axe!Tauroneo, you will be using forges, whether it's to buff up Sothe's knife damage, or it's to buff up the accuracy and attack of your unpromoted scrubs.

Consider also that Sothe is pretty much a black hole anyway: not a whole lot happens when you put that experience into him. Even if he miraculously made it to where he doubles Cats, it at best gives him two shots at killing it in one hit. He still has to double Tigers.

I don't really understand what your point is. Sothe doubles Tigers quite easily, I think he can do it at base level.

Sothe has to go digging for a Master Seal. It's just more efficient to recruit the LEA (seriously they're on the way to the throne) and have them help pull the weight.

Surely, that's a good thing for Sothe. I mean, what you're saying is that he CAN pull the weight, it's just that we have other people who can also pull the weight for him, the difference is that Sothe can also be useful for something else. So if he's not pulling the weight, it's not because he's inferior, it's because he's superior.

[Colonel M]

I only got a couple of minutes to grind, so let's get on with this.

So in the end, this is better for Sothe than you made it out to be. Yes, wonderful.

Partially.

What for? You should have been able to get the ones in 1-4 and 1-5 easily enough, and you shouldn't need more than that.

Ilyana can carry more with a promotion to the GMs. You can also use it on a Level 10 Laura for a small +Mag bonus.

Uh, what? No, seriously, if I'm getting ahead of them in a draft run, they are not "on the way." Both times I've actually tried to do this fast, Sothe would have had to slow down to recruit them.

What exactly is the turncount you got for this chapter then? If it's any higher than 5, I'm not considering it.

Lol? It's not close to invincibility if one needs to waste their player phases self-healing. Try again. I'm not saying she's easy to kill, not at all, but it's clear that Haar can almost always take more enemies.

I'm also saying that taking more enemies is slightly irrelevant. Wasting a Concoction or a Vulnerary on the Player Phase isn't as big of a deal as you're making it out to be.

Sothe can reach a spot below the ledge in a Thicket by turn 2 with a Shove that the boss will attack from and he'll stay right there. Jill can surely reach him.

Question answered moving on.

Wait, what? Why is she ferrying when she could be fighting? We just have to clear the way for Skrimir. No need to ferry anyone.

She's ferrying and fighting. You can push units a little more forward with her rescue chaining units. Gatrie is one unit I'm talking about here who starts pretty far behind and the terrain is kind of shoddy for him.

Overall, while I agree that Titania is a great unit, nowhere in your ch-by-ch analysis did I see a place where she makes a seriously game-breaking difference. She is definitely a preferable unit in places like 3-3 and 3-5, but I wouldn't put it at any more value than certain maps of Sothe's.

If you can find a third unit that ORKOes at 1-2 range and has Hammers in 3-8 and 3-10 that can keep up with Haar and the Hawks, please tell me.

So, if anything, Sothe and Nolan split credit for what Nolan does with Beastfoe. Nolan does it, Sothe allows him to.

That depends on your implication of Thief utility, which is another one of those "pessimistic to figure out" kind of things that no one likes bothering with. Again, if part of your reason for pushing Sothe for Top Tier partially comes with finding items, whatever. I'll buy it.

Then list them correctly.

-atk

-def

Not

-atk/def

-Tarvos

Tarvos is what makes the atk/def. It is nothing aside from them.

You still once again need Atk/Def that isn't from Tarvos. Tarvos is a bonus to it all, but Nolan's durability is good enough. You also get good Atk from Silver Poleaxes in 3-12.

Truly laughable.

I am freaking serious, you nutjob. Have you used Tauroneo on 3-12 lately? Or have you tried not using him? Because guess what, those Snipers that start there do whatever he would do just as well. He is nothing special aside from maybe finishing off some Pegasi. At best he'll help the kill count by, like, 2 on his own. I doubt he saves any turns.

Question: Can the Snipers counterattack from 1-2 range and not be stupid enough to stray away from the fort? If the answer is no, then don't bother.

Oh, I wonder? Maybe...get rid of the goddamned Paladins? So hard. When did I say I'm sending in Sothe to kill just anything? There's a reason I singled out weak enemies.

You might as well mentioned nothing, since the best he can do is kill one Bishop as you presented in Part 4, which probably is doing nothing for the team really.

Fuck you. Seriously, fuck you. Before you came in, did you see me hyping his part 4? Of course not. I know it blows. Who the hell do you think I am? You're the one who came in and started shouting, "DURR HURR SOTHE'S PART 4 IS TOTAL NEGATIVE" until now when you finally decided to explain it in a better fashion but still simultaneously threw this bullshit at me.

And yes, I can hand wave it. It's called "He does nothing." Treat it like he's not deployed if you need to. This is what we call neutral. It is not getting him anywhere, but it's not worsening his case personally. You can also see it like an availability advantage for Titania. Or is he "negative" for not being around in part 3 GM?

Sorry the point still stands. Sothe's negative is that he contributes zip in Part 4. That means his net contribution is 0. Part 4 Chapters carry a good amount of weight because they rely on serious combat parameters to rout the enemies. In other words: I'm weighing them pretty high. You saw that Titania and Sothe's Parts 1 and 3 are somewhat comparable. Then you have Titania plowing the ground in Part 4 versus Sothe. Does it really need further explanation or are we going to sling mud to understand this?

Seriously, I'm not implying that you're rating Sothe's Part 4 very high, but you're only proving my point: you have to grasp at straws to find something positive for Sothe in Part 4. There is no bullshit needed here.

Interceptor is a cool guy, but since when is his interpretation the end one?

I'm not saying he is, but he's also the one questioning Titania's tier placement to Top. Obviously addressing that is important no matter what.

I'm sorry, I didn't get the memo. Since when could Nolan/Jill/Aran/Edward kill anything without a forge? Unless you plan on beating Part 1 with solely Volug and a brief cameo from Bronze Axe!Tauroneo, you will be using forges, whether it's to buff up Sothe's knife damage, or it's to buff up the accuracy and attack of your unpromoted scrubs.

You actually just answered the question yourself. The knife forge has a cost behind it no matter what, and the price tag is what I mean. The reward is a kill for Jill.

I don't really understand what your point is. Sothe doubles Tigers quite easily, I think he can do it at base level.

I mean he'll never OHKO them with leveling.

Surely, that's a good thing for Sothe. I mean, what you're saying is that he CAN pull the weight, it's just that we have other people who can also pull the weight for him, the difference is that Sothe can also be useful for something else. So if he's not pulling the weight, it's not because he's inferior, it's because he's superior.

In this case, probably. He's superior to finding the Master Seal, but I doubt he's superior to killing the boss since it still takes a Player + Enemy Phase for him (and Micaiah support).

[dondon151]

Yes, because this is the first tier list EVER to give thieves credit for finding hidden items. I'm not exaggerating when I say that every single tier list from FEs 6 through 9 give thieves full credit for hidden items.

Not quite full credit, as other units have to use the items, but you're going in the right direction, anyway.

I don't really understand what your point is. Sothe doubles Tigers quite easily, I think he can do it at base level.

All but the level 17 ones, which require about 4 levels for him to get the necessary 22 AS. Not too difficult.

[Colonel M]

I guess I should let the cat out of the bag. In all honesty I looked at the topic and there wasn't enough credit given to Sothe's thief utility. Since I was bored and felt like digging into a few people's skin (because I'm good at that) I decided to help RFOF find the answer by doing something a little more on the reverse. Sothe's contributions both at combat and Thief utility is fairly good enough for Top Tier. I sincerely disagree ocer Titania for some of the reasons dondon and myself pointed out.

Next time my lovely fox, I expect slightly less mud slinging at me. I felt quite saddened that I would be treated like so. If you think I'm johning I gave Sothe a 9(10 on my rating topic.

Edited May 10, 2011 by _M_

[Anouleth]

You actually just answered the question yourself. The knife forge has a cost behind it no matter what, and the price tag is what I mean.

But that price tag would exist for any character. Either we use the Knife forge, or Nolan uses an Axe forge, or Jill uses an Axe forge, or whatever. In that sense, it's not a major flaw that Sothe's Knife forges have an associated cost, since most ways of killing things have a similar associated cost.

The reward is a kill for Jill.

How is the kill for Jill a reward? Yes, obviously, we will prefer to give Jill kills than Sothe, because she is better in Part 4, but it has no impact on Part 1, and it's already been conceded that Sothe sucks in Part 4 and Jill is the shit. It's not germane to Sothe being better in Part 1.

In this case, probably. He's superior to finding the Master Seal, but I doubt he's superior to killing the boss since it still takes a Player + Enemy Phase for him (and Micaiah support).

True.

[Junkhead]

I would put Haar at Epic Tier.

[Florete]

Next time my lovely fox, I expect slightly less mud slinging at me. I felt quite saddened that I would be treated like so. If you think I'm johning I gave Sothe a 9(10 on my rating topic.

Yeah, I feel the need to apologize for that. Sorry. I don't know what happened, but I woke up wishing I hadn't said some of that. Rage Fox strikes again?

Edited May 10, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Colonel M]

Yeah, I feel the need to apologize for that. Sorry. I don't know what happened, but I woke up wishing I hadn't said some of that. Rage Fox strikes again?

If it makes you feel better I was half-thinking after the first post since it was starting to get late. The first post alone looked kind of bland with my wording (for some reason I make things with word definitions up when I'm tired). Besides, I'm a Tyrant. I can accept a little Rage Fox here and there.

Regardless, Sothe's contributions are good enough for Top Tier if we combine more than just his combat. I think his Thief properties also help make the difference here. The problem is what the hell to do with Volug still since I don't think Volug loses by an entire tier either, but I can't even suggest anything since I've never seriously used him (God now I feel like Snowy).