OMG it's a tier list

[grandjackal]

This is different from units who aren't Ike how? Early on in part 3, most units either have problems doubling or killing in two hits. Even Ike doesn't get everything.

Difference being they're units that are moving on ahead for the sake of completing the map in any sort of time not laughable (the cavs), or actually bring reward with their growing in a relative timezone (Ike, Mia). I can't just feed every kill to Boyd now, can I? Especially since a map like 3-P doesn't have a huge amount of enemies at the start of it.

3-2 is not reasonably 2 turned. 3 is much more feasible. A mounted unit with Celerity just barely reaches the boss' range on turn 2.

Oh, well that changes everything. *Rolls eyes*

Like deployment, because Boyd is not the absolute best choice on average for the Wing, he stands no chance. There is no possibility of Haar and/or Titania being Spd blessed,

And Boyd doesn't get Spd screwed! I love raising units in hopes that not only do they not get screwed, units totally better and just as wanting of resources get blessed as well. If only the game were ever so perfect in this dreamscape situation you paint out so beautifully with your colorful sarcastic tones.

or one of them not being in play in the long run, or any other factors that would allow Boyd to either get the Wing or have good Spd.

@Bold: This IS an efficiency tier list, right?

@Rest: So I have to count on not only Haar AND Titania getting blessed or otherwise just flat out ditching them altogether, but that Boyd doesn't get screwed as well with his totally-not-less-reliable-than-a-coin-flip 45% speed growth? How is it I'M being the reasonable one here?

The GJ show continues. Nice to see everyone back here, though. It's almost nostalgic.

Dawww, I missed you too. How's Fir doing? Last I checked, she was overrated still.

Honestly? In the early part 3 maps, you should be feeding the units you are preparing for later. Everyone can be deployed and almost no one reliably ORKOs. Why wouldn't you feed kills to those whom you want the experience in?

I would LIKE to, but CAN I without A. kill turncount, or B. reduce the safety of a strat that keeps my turns low? For Boyd, I find the answer hard to say yes to.

Well, it's a good thing this isn't a 0% growth tier list.

You're right, Boyd totally has a 100% speed growth. How silly of me, not double-checing my facts again. Hell, I apparently didn't know he could double things with less than a 4 AS lead...*glares*

For a start, I do not think it's reasonable to expect to 2-turn 3-2 since it requires Shinon to critical or Adept Istvan.

Oh ok, 3 turns, whatever.

When did I say this Wing was free? And getting screwed is a threat to all characters except like, Laguz and Royals. I mean, if you're not going to bother with training Boyd because he 'might get speed screwed', you might as well ditch half of high tier. I've had terrible Nolans before.

The issue is not so much that he gets speed screwed as much as he needs some levels to on average get the speed needed to make a speedwing effective on him. You can consider it the risk/reward ratio. The main difference being that Boyd simply gives the same rewards as most would, exception being that Boyd has higher risk associated to it since he needs more levels with a very shaky growth. I'd rather not take the chance if I don't need to, and I'm certainly not going to accept speed blessing just cause "I wanna use Boyd" is apparently a viable argument.

So apparently, when you consider the possibility of giving the Speedwing to someone other than Titania or Haar (who are always in play), you are playing 'Soviet Emblem'. A strawman worthy of smashfanatic himself.

This is an efficiency tier list, is it not? I'm pretty sure we have done away with the idea that no one is assumed to be played long ago. How is it a strawman that they're being played being played? This is an efficiency tier list, and they arguably have the most profound effect on the game in terms of efficient play. If there's any strawman here, it's the idea that we're not using the two most godlike units in the series since FE4.

And apparently, giving an above average unit kills is 'being force fed' and 'Ninoism', as if a unit that is one point below Titania in strength and speed is comparable to fucking Nino.

FE tiering has pretty much gotten to a point where only a handful of units actually start to matter at any given point of time, and Boyd's time is pretty short lived. Past that, why bother with the trouble?

Hm. Maybe it's been a while since I've gone along with the "Play like you're a normal human being" thing. Used to love it, but then everyone hoped on the dondon train to boringville, and in that concentration of pure not caring, FE12's Lunatic Mode was spawned, where only a handful of units are even usable, much less have reward to actually be used outside of "average". It might just be that I'm a bit caught up on this other style of argument (on the account that I've been playing too much FE12 for some damned reason), so I might not be in the right head for this particular list.

[Silith]

Actually, I did have much better turn counts than that. 5/5/2, specifically. Nor do I understand how you got her even that with her bad speed (struggles to double Paladins, for instance), bad strength (can't 2HKO them either) and bad durability (gets 3HKOed back).

Nor am I really getting how Tanith (N) could ever turn out better than Haar. Even a 20/7 Tanith would only be matching Haar in speed and getting crushed in other areas, such as Strength, Defense, and Axe-Having.

The reason we all appear to have Haarboners is because Haar is just a ridiculously good character. He's good when he joins, he's good in Part 3, he's good in Part 4. All good, all the time.

I won't argue haar is good. He really is. But he isn't the god especially when part 4 and especially endgame starts popping up. He'll become better then average still but mostly due to his flight and strength. A forged had axe or the Tomahawk is 7 Mt less then the Wishblade and having the ability to use Wyrmslayers is also a boon to Tanith. Triangle attacks and having that 34+ speed only increase the gap between them.

Haar makes everything up to Endgame a lot easier and will outperform Tanith till the desert map. I myself use them both and they both have their times to shine. Haar > Tanith till 4-3. Haar = Tanith for 4-3 and 4-E-1. Tanith > Haar for 4-E-3 and onward.

[RNG Princess]

I think Tanith starts beating Haar on 4-E-2+ because he can use hammer for 4-E-1 but if she has nullify for 4-3 I can see her beating Haar since he has issues doubling btw both of you forgot to mention that paragon fits Tanith perfectly for 3-11 and on. OH i'm thinking of Tanith (T) nvm ^^'

Edited May 7, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Silith]

Paragon is lovely on Tanith but she can't use it verry well in chapter 3-11 and 4-P with the Wind mages and bows lurking around. She wants the nullify scroll there. On 3-F I usually do give her Paragon and she rocks with it.

Earth support + flight + 34+ speed and An almost uncontested SS rank weapon. I think she's severely underrated.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Silith

[Anouleth]

Difference being they're units that are moving on ahead for the sake of completing the map in any sort of time not laughable (the cavs), or actually bring reward with their growing in a relative timezone (Ike, Mia). I can't just feed every kill to Boyd now, can I? Especially since a map like 3-P doesn't have a huge amount of enemies at the start of it.

Boyd T gives rewards for growing. I don't think I need to point out how great being able to ORKO enemies with a forged Hand Axe is, and it's even feasible for Boyd to do so against Generals if you get him a high enough level. Once Boyd breaks through into doubling, he is an absolutely great unit, even into Part 4. For example, a level 20/1 Boyd with Speed transfer and Speedwing has 32STR and 29AS, giving him 48ATK with a support and a forged Hand Axe. That's comparable to Ike, who's Part 4 is considered a large part of why he's in Top Tier. And before you qq about Boyd being able to promote naturally, it's quite possible to BEXP him since he caps HP quite fast, so he can probably start capping his relevant stats like Strength and Speed a little bit before his averages would otherwise indicate.

In addition, there is enough EXP for Ike + Mia + Titania + Boyd.

@Rest: So I have to count on not only Haar AND Titania getting blessed or otherwise just flat out ditching them altogether, but that Boyd doesn't get screwed as well with his totally-not-less-reliable-than-a-coin-flip 45% speed growth? How is it I'M being the reasonable one here?

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a tier list to cover a greater variety of strategies than 'The Haar & Titania Show' (with opening band Sothe and the Prepromotes). Obviously, for characters that are not in high tier, they will not be able to reliably compare to the likes of Haar and Titania, but it can be shown that Boyd (T) can hold his own against many other Upper Mid units such as Nephenee, Gatrie, Oscar, and even Zihark, and is fully deserving of his current position.

I would LIKE to, but CAN I without A. kill turncount, or B. reduce the safety of a strat that keeps my turns low? For Boyd, I find the answer hard to say yes to.

I have used Boyd (T) in early Part 3, and I am perfectly confident that he can reach level 10 by the beginning of 3-2, so I couldn't care less what your opinion is on how easy he is to train.

(Of course, the implication here is that somehow Boyd 2RKOing enemies with 7 move on a team where most of your characters are 2RKOing with 7 move is somehow unacceptable performance and makes it necessary to go out of our way to feed kills to him [and even for Titania and Oscar, they get slowed down by Thickets so their move isn't that much better, plus, enemies will block their path])

You're right, Boyd totally has a 100% speed growth. How silly of me, not double-checing my facts again. Hell, I apparently didn't know he could double things with less than a 4 AS lead...*glares*

Yet another ridiculous strawman. Have you been taking lessons from smashfanatic?

Chances are, Boyd will have more than 20AS going into Chapter 3-2. In fact, it's about a 70% chance. Funny, isn't it, since High Tier Mia also has about a 70% chance of ORKOing any given Paladin with Adept, while Boyd is doing it for free (and he borderline 2HKOes them with a Hand Axe).

The issue is not so much that he gets speed screwed as much as he needs some levels to on average get the speed needed to make a speedwing effective on him. You can consider it the risk/reward ratio. The main difference being that Boyd simply gives the same rewards as most would, exception being that Boyd has higher risk associated to it since he needs more levels with a very shaky growth. I'd rather not take the chance if I don't need to, and I'm certainly not going to accept speed blessing just cause "I wanna use Boyd" is apparently a viable argument.

Actually, even if Boyd is speed screwed, the Speedwing still translates into immediate and positive effects on him. For example, since you were qqing about Boyd having the 21AS to double Paladins in Chapter 3-2, it's worth noting that if we gave him the Wing, he'd have the AS to double all of them.

This is an efficiency tier list, is it not? I'm pretty sure we have done away with the idea that no one is assumed to be played long ago. How is it a strawman that they're being played being played? This is an efficiency tier list, and they arguably have the most profound effect on the game in terms of efficient play. If there's any strawman here, it's the idea that we're not using the two most godlike units in the series since FE4.

You can have an efficient playthrough without Haar, or Titania, or indeed, practically anyone in the game excluding extreme examples like the Herons, and even then it's debatable.

Nor are Haar and FE10 Titania that godlike. They are certainly good and dominate a number of maps between them, but that is nothing like FE7 Marcus, Seth, FE9 Titania, or even Marcia, who can handily dominate more than half of the entire game. Using Seth in particular makes a massive difference. It is almost ridiculous how much of an impact he has on FE8 efficient play. Hell, even Alan/Lance could make a solid case for having a greater impact on FE6 efficiency than Haar or FE10 Titania

FE tiering has pretty much gotten to a point where only a handful of units actually start to matter at any given point of time, and Boyd's time is pretty short lived. Past that, why bother with the trouble?

Because as I have shown above, Boyd can compare to some very good characters once adequately set up. He is not some trash like Soren who never really succeeds in extricating himself from mediocrity.

Hm. Maybe it's been a while since I've gone along with the "Play like you're a normal human being" thing. Used to love it, but then everyone hoped on the dondon train to boringville, and in that concentration of pure not caring, FE12's Lunatic Mode was spawned, where only a handful of units are even usable, much less have reward to actually be used outside of "average". It might just be that I'm a bit caught up on this other style of argument (on the account that I've been playing too much FE12 for some damned reason), so I might not be in the right head for this particular list.

Well, I have sometimes needed to catch myself when I've been making arguments based on optimum deployment.

I won't argue haar is good. He really is. But he isn't the god especially when part 4 and especially endgame starts popping up. He'll become better then average still but mostly due to his flight and strength. A forged had axe or the Tomahawk is 7 Mt less then the Wishblade and having the ability to use Wyrmslayers is also a boon to Tanith. Triangle attacks and having that 34+ speed only increase the gap between them.

Well, good for her in the three turns where it's actually relevant.

(plus, it's highly questionable if Tanith can ever reach 34SPD)

Haar makes everything up to Endgame a lot easier and will outperform Tanith till the desert map. I myself use them both and they both have their times to shine. Haar > Tanith till 4-3. Haar = Tanith for 4-3 and 4-E-1. Tanith > Haar for 4-E-3 and onward.

Tanith is most certainly inferior to Haar in the desert map. Assuming that Haar got a speedwing earlier in the game:

Haar level ??/11

56HP 38STR 35SKL 29SPD 35DEF

Tanith level 20/7

42HP 28/29STR 30/31SKL 29SPD 26DEF

Tanith has no Speed lead and massive deficits in strength, HP, skill, and defense. Moreover, she has no Hammer access and is forced to use forged Javelins, which are weaker and less accurate than Haar's forged Hand Axes, and she must either take Nullify or avoid the bow users. The gap between these two units is absurdly large.

Paragon is lovely on Tanith but she can't use it verry well in chapter 3-11 and 4-P with the Wind mages and bows lurking around. She wants the nullify scroll there. On 3-F I usually do give her Paragon and she rocks with it.

Actually, she can take Paragon quite easily in 4-P. There is only a single Crossbow enemy that be killed very quickly and almost all the bow users are clustered on the RHS of the map behind Thickets. It's harder for her to avoid the Steel Longbow Bow Knight, but he's not a big threat even without Nullify.

Earth support + flight + 34+ speed and An almost uncontested SS rank weapon. I think she's severely underrated.

The Earth support doesn't mean much since it's unlikely to get far. In Part 4, it's a +8 avoid at most, and since there are no authority stars on Micaiah's route, Tanith will never really have 'good' avoid. Nor is it easy for her to reach 34SPD, and having a 34SPD cap is not that great since people have stopped overrating 4-E-5. However, she is okay in 4-E-1 because she has flight and 1-2 range access, but so does Haar, and he also has better combat against the Generals.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Black★Star

[Florete]

Difference being they're units that are moving on ahead for the sake of completing the map in any sort of time not laughable (the cavs), or actually bring reward with their growing in a relative timezone (Ike, Mia). I can't just feed every kill to Boyd now, can I? Especially since a map like 3-P doesn't have a huge amount of enemies at the start of it.

-Boyd has 7 Move on a team with mostly 6-7 move units.

-Boyd brings reward with growth (and it's funny that the units you mention on this point have 7 Move, like Boyd, but no 2 range to speak of until 3-2).

-What the fuck? When did I say Boyd is being fed every kill? Since when does he need that?

And Boyd doesn't get Spd screwed! I love raising units in hopes that not only do they not get screwed, units totally better and just as wanting of resources get blessed as well. If only the game were ever so perfect in this dreamscape situation you paint out so beautifully with your colorful sarcastic tones.

Strawmen for the win? Yes, Boyd can get Spd screwed. So what? Drop him. The idea is that Haar and Titania will not always need a Wing. Try again.

@Bold: This IS an efficiency tier list, right?

@Rest: So I have to count on not only Haar AND Titania getting blessed or otherwise just flat out ditching them altogether, but that Boyd doesn't get screwed as well with his totally-not-less-reliable-than-a-coin-flip 45% speed growth? How is it I'M being the reasonable one here?

You're not the one being reasonable.

Only one of Haar and Titania would need to be blessed in this scenario. Did you miss my and/or? There are two Wings, and Boyd (T) is next in line quite easily, maybe even better depending on other possible factors. He also has greater experience gain so you can see much sooner whether he's average, blessed, or screwed.

Dawww, I missed you too. How's Fir doing? Last I checked, she was overrated still.

Dunno. Haven't checked. FE6 really doesn't interest me anymore.

I would LIKE to, but CAN I without A. kill turncount, or B. reduce the safety of a strat that keeps my turns low? For Boyd, I find the answer hard to say yes to.

A. Fucking...Are you seriously asking me if it's possible to kill enemy units without losing turns? Isn't that, like, the whole goddamn point of the game? The reason combat is what the majority of units do?

B. Killing enemies. That is the risk reducer. Unfortunately, it takes more than one unit in these maps to kill the majority of enemies.

[Yuglyoshi]

Sothe is the right person to find beastfoe but he's not the only possibility, Micaiah can find it too. If he's taking taking credit for bringing in beastfoe why can't Ilyana (I can understand Marcia's argument) get credit for bringing speedwing? Trading it to her or not she's the only source to bring said speedwing to the GMs and not just the speedwing (adept, blue gem, celerity, etc), therefore she's deployed for a reason or kept alive (other items) for a reason. Its unfair to credit one character for bringing an item and not the other. I remember that contributing items supposibly didn't count for crediting characters am I missing something here? And if he is given credit, Heather better get a trophy too for that rescue staff.

There's a bunch of small differences between Sothe being credited for the Beastfoe and Ilyana taken credit for transfering the Speedwing.

1. Somebody else (probably sothe) has to get the Speedwing in the first place.

2. The Speedwing exists whether Ilyana transfers it or not. It's not the end of the world if it isn't sent to the GMs.

3. Ilyana has to be deployed in order to transfer it.

4. Ilyana doesn't have to actually DO anything in order to transfer the wing. More likely than not, she'll be level 14 and following everybody else up the map until she gets the wing, then she'll sit and watch until the map is cleared. Sothe has to not only move through 1-4, but fight and physically find the Beastfoe in the sand as well. It's the same reason why Lords aren't credited for seizing; they don't HAVE to ever fight or do anything in order to meet the objective.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Yuglyoshi

[RNG Princess]

There's a bunch of small differences between Sothe being credited for the Beastfoe and Ilyana taken credit for transfering the Speedwing.

1. Somebody else (probably sothe) has to get the Speedwing in the first place.

2. The Speedwing exists whether Ilyana transfers it or not. It's not the end of the world if it isn't sent to the GMs.

3. Ilyana has to be deployed in order to transfer it.

4. Ilyana doesn't have to actually DO anything in order to transfer the wing. More likely than not, she'll be level 14 and following everybody else up the map until she gets the wing, then she'll sit and watch until the map is cleared. Sothe has to not only move through 1-4, but fight and physically find the Beastfoe in the sand as well. It's the same reason why Lords aren't credited for seizing; they don't HAVE to ever fight or do anything in order to meet the objective.

I think I understand a bit but she's not a lord and transfering the items isnt a forced task and neither is finding beastfoe but doing both helps reduce turn counts. Just because he's fighting and she's not he gets credit? That seems unfair :(.

[dondon151]

Do you give Jorge and Daniel credit for letting you sell items and make forges?

[Zkirsche]

Jorge and Deniel for top tier.

But yeah, we might as well credit Ike for seizing or something at this rate.

[Florete]

I think I understand a bit but she's not a lord and transfering the items isnt a forced task and neither is finding beastfoe but doing both helps reduce turn counts. Just because he's fighting and she's not he gets credit? That seems unfair :(.

Ilyana doesn't transfer the Wing based on her own merits. There's no ability she has that sends her to the Mercenaries. Sothe, however, has a much increased chance of getting Beastfoe, a merit of his class, as well as having the highest Skill on the team.

Plus, if you don't want to deploy Ilyana, you can give the Wing to Zihark or Jill and recruit them or steal it in 3-7. Late, but effective.

[Yuglyoshi]

Jorge and Deniel for top tier.

But yeah, we might as well credit Ike for seizing or something at this rate.

But that would be unfair. He'd probably end up in Easy Mode tier if we credited him for that.

...

Edited May 7, 2011 by Yuglyoshi

[Zkirsche]

I mean Ike(N).

[Anouleth]

There's a bunch of small differences between Sothe being credited for the Beastfoe and Ilyana taken credit for transfering the Speedwing.

1. Somebody else (probably sothe) has to get the Speedwing in the first place.

2. The Speedwing exists whether Ilyana transfers it or not. It's not the end of the world if it isn't sent to the GMs.

3. Ilyana has to be deployed in order to transfer it.

4. Ilyana doesn't have to actually DO anything in order to transfer the wing. More likely than not, she'll be level 14 and following everybody else up the map until she gets the wing, then she'll sit and watch until the map is cleared. Sothe has to not only move through 1-4, but fight and physically find the Beastfoe in the sand as well. It's the same reason why Lords aren't credited for seizing; they don't HAVE to ever fight or do anything in order to meet the objective.

To be honest, I can understand his point. Since all Sothe needs to do is Wait on a specific tile, you wouldn't necessarily have to count that as him contributing (since technically, he doesn't have to 'do' anything'). However, since I'm pretty sure Sothe gets credit for 4-3 desert items, he should probably get credit for Beastfoe as well. Thieves in other tier lists get credit for such items as well.

I don't think that this is a similar argument at all to Seize arguments. We disregard Seize arguments since if we accepted them, Ike would automatically be above all other characters. It's more interesting and meaningful for the tier list to treat him as if he wasn't required to seize, even if it's not strictly accurate. Letting Ilyana take credit for transferring items (which I don't support) or Sothe taking credit for finding items would not let them be above all other characters.

Edited May 8, 2011 by Black★Star

[Yuglyoshi]

To be honest, I can understand his point. Since all Sothe needs to do is Wait on a specific tile, you wouldn't necessarily have to count that as him contributing (since technically, he doesn't have to 'do' anything'). However, since I'm pretty sure Sothe gets credit for 4-3 desert items, he should probably get credit for Beastfoe as well. Thieves in other tier lists get credit for such items as well.

I don't think that this is a similar argument at all to Seize arguments. We disregard Seize arguments since if we accepted them, Ike would automatically be above all other characters. It's more interesting and meaningful for the tier list to treat him as if he wasn't required to seize, even if it's not strictly accurate. Letting Ilyana take credit for transferring items (which I don't support) or Sothe taking credit for finding items would not let them be above all other characters.

To be honest, I was just throwing out ideas until somebody (rfof I think) gave the actual reason for the difference. I actually had an epiphany a while later about rfof's reason, but when I logged back on he had already made his post.

Edited May 8, 2011 by Yuglyoshi

[RNG Princess]

Ilyana doesn't transfer the Wing based on her own merits. There's no ability she has that sends her to the Mercenaries. Sothe, however, has a much increased chance of getting Beastfoe, a merit of his class, as well as having the highest Skill on the team.

Plus, if you don't want to deploy Ilyana, you can give the Wing to Zihark or Jill and recruit them or steal it in 3-7. Late, but effective.

^^' I try to make fair arguments and I can be a bit stubborn but i'm not going to blind myself. I can see the point and reason thank you, and I thought finding items was based on the stat luck. Anouleth said the rest for me though about Sothe stepping on the tile, I guess its just one of those things worth note mentioning for a character.

Edited May 8, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Florete]

^^' I try to make fair arguments and I can be a bit stubborn but i'm not going to blind myself. I can see the point and reason thank you, and I thought finding items was based on the stat luck. Anouleth said the rest for me though about Sothe stepping on the tile, I guess its just one of those things worth note mentioning for a character.

Well, it's not like Ilyana can't be credited for the transfer. It's very true that without giving it to her, it won't get to the Mercenaries until 3-7 at the earliest (along with all the other items she can transfer). It's just that, 1-E items aside, Ilyana doesn't even need to be so much as deployed to transfer anything, so crediting her for the GM's having those items would just be odd. For the Wing in particular there are other factors like the ones Yuglyoshi mentioned, specifically that someone else has to get it in the first place (or she technically could with a Chest Key, but anyone can do that just as easily while Sothe is the only one with a high chance of getting Beastfoe) and whether she transfers it or not it is still available to be used.

In the end, we could technically give her credit for it, but I don't really think it would change much anyway.

[Integrity]

I see crediting Ilyana for transfers as roughly the same as crediting Aran for the Sleep Staff in 3-13. All she(he) has to do at 3-2(3-13) and you automatically(via convo) get the Speedwing(sleepstaff).

[RNG Princess]

It shouldn't warrant her a place above anyone but it is worth noting that keeping her alive is beneficial because she can transfer goodies ^^', same with DB because they can block ledges.

BTW I think Ilyana should be closer to Soren because she's useful for a few maps and can have a seal and help out a bit. I find her useful in 1-5 where she can leave boss kill to Nolan (enemy phase+Player phase and a rescue drop)

[incognit0]

How is Aran above Tanith (T)? Why is Tanith (T) so low?

Edited May 9, 2011 by incognito123

[Florete]

How is Aran above Tanith (T)? Why is Tanith (T) so low?

Tanith in general just has a problem of availability. Although I would like to see a more in-depth look at Tanith (T). I feel like she might have a lot of potential that no one has really looked at. Aran, however, has been on a drop lately and I would not be surprised to see him go a bit lower.

[Anouleth]

Tanith in general just has a problem of availability. Although I would like to see a more in-depth look at Tanith (T). I feel like she might have a lot of potential that no one has really looked at. Aran, however, has been on a drop lately and I would not be surprised to see him go a bit lower.

The thing about Tanith (T) is that there is a dearth of suitable comparisons to make with her. She is largely limited to being useful in 3-11 and Part 4, and the next character above her with similar availability is Naesala, who is better since he can ORKO more reliably and with better durability. 20/1 Tanith (T)'s 42ATK with a forged Steel Lance is insufficient to ORKO many of the Paladins in 4-P, for instance, and her ~41HP and 24DEF is decidedly inferior to Naesala's 60HP and 26DEF, as well as an avoid lead of about 22. Things look better in 4-3, since armed with a forged Silver Lance that gives her 47ATK, she can secure reliable 2HKOs on most enemy types, and while she flubs against a few of the level 10 and higher units, she will probably gain levels throughout the chapter in order to have the 48 or 49ATK in order to securely ORKO them. However, obviously Naesala is still superior. It's not difficult for him to proc a point of strength and be sitting on his own 49ATK, and against the tough generals in the south-east, he can boast impressive proc rates. He also has the aforementioned durability lead.

The question is if all this adds up to Naesala deserving an entire tier over Tanith (she does still have 3-11, after all). I am a big Tanith fan, but I don't think she really deserves to be in Upper Mid. But probably over the likes of Soren T and Brom. Brom has barely any use even in 2-2 and 2-E, and once you get to Part 3... just a horrible unit.

[Interceptor]

Sorry for the lateness of my reply, I had some things to do. I hope that everyone had a fun weekend of arguing with each other on the Internet.

In the interest of efficient use of time, and based on past experience with similar things, I've ignored the entirety of the Grankjackal sub-thread. If someone said something awesome, a Greatest Hits post would be pretty cool.

Of course it does. Titania trivialized most of the game without growths. Now just imagine if she had growths and a Speedwings. Should I direct you back to your stated scenario of "where resources are split evenly between all units, regardless of efficiency?" I just qualified that Titania fit the definition for a top tier unit under your scenario because she trivialized most of the game with nearly no resources. I specifically stated that I was not comparing her performance to that of other units in the 0% playthrough for obvious reasons.

I don't have to imagine it, because "Titania with growths" is what happens in the overwhelming majority of runs, where the player doesn't roundhouse kick away one of the core pillars of Fire Emblem.

This no-frills Titania is quite good, no lie. But at her base parameters, she isn't without flaw: Titania can't fly (ever), her offensive feature set is useful but limited, and her durability is nothing to write home about, if not shaky. Left to her own devices, she's undoubtedly useful in spurts, but she peters out, and is a long way from being the dominating force that I'd expect from a unit in Top tier.

Unless, of course, your army is so anemic from lack of any growth opportunities, that a unit with a high base level and nice promotion bonuses becomes your go-to, through nothing else but lack of options. But that's a discussion for another thread.

I'm sorry, but you grossly misrepresent my playthrough by implying that there's a significant amount of RNG abuse involved. There isn't. As amusing as it is for Mekkah to consistently liken me to Vykan, the fact of the matter is that it's just not true (specifically in the case of RD), and it annoys me to no end when people pull this card as if it were particularly damaging to my argument. Try a different argument.

It's fun to tweak you about this. All that I had to do to elicit an overreaction was say "RNG abuse" in a list of other perfectly legitimate points, and you predictably blew those two words out of proportion and ignored everything else. Everything there contributes to your skewed view of the tier list, but that particular point is a "barbarians at the gate" moment for you.

Nobody cares as much about the integrity of that run as you do, so keep that thought in mind whenever you try to cram the square peg of your run into the round hole of the tier list.

Also, "low turn counts over efficiency?" I honestly have no idea what you mean by efficiency.

And I believe that you are being honest about this. Your obtuseness when it comes to accepting ideas that you don't personally agree with, might someday become legendary.

All that I can say to you, is that efficiency is not defined as the number of turns that some arbitrary unit saves when it is placed in the game's optimal army. This is a perversion of the purpose of looking at turn counts in the first place. Going faster is both harder to do and less safe, which tends to expose the differences between units: this is where turn counts are important. They are not the end, they are one of the means by which we arrive at the end.

I have tried to explain this concept of Fire Emblem efficiency to my cat. She does not understand, as far as I can tell, but she also doesn't speak English and has a very small brain.

Titania is still a goddess in this "reasonable scenario" of yours. If you mean to imply that Titania isn't as good as Haar, tell me something I don't know. There would still be a tier gap between Easy Mode tier Haar and top tier Titania.

I don't see a need for a tier above Top. It is semantic nonsense. Titania is already recognized for her (naked) superiority over her neighbors, by being basically at the top of High tier (and perhaps ACTUALLY at the top of High tier, once Sothe is ranked more appropriately).

Sothe has too many flaws to be top tier he should stay in high.

Agreed, and QFT. I wonder if the reason that RFoF ignored this post of yours, is because she refuses to acknowledge that people besides yours truly actually hold this position.

I don't know why people think 3-6 is such an issue for Sothe.

Lord only knows why you think that people think that 3-6 is a "such an issue" for Sothe. Even I will acknowledge that Sothe is passable in 3-6: better than an empty slot, and capable of a few useful tricks to speed things along. It's the rest of Part 3 where he's garbage, not this one chapter. You are using weasel-wording.

So because there's a resource that Titania can take to be Ike With 9 Move and Canto and Axes, and there is no resource that we can give to Ike for him to have the same performance, Titania is significantly worse than Ike in such a way to warrant a tier break?

Speedwings do not turn Titania into Ike. Ike is considerably more durable than Titania is, and once we expand the view of the game beyond the GMs first few chapters, you'll notice that one of these kids becomes a superstar while the other one becomes a roleplayer.

In 3-6, Sothe is not only providing Beastfoe, he is also capable of using Beastkiller. As a result, he is responsible for a great deal of offense on the team. He is part of the reason that Nolan and Volug are so good.

Sothe's only claim to fame with Beastfoe is that he can find it easier than your other options. It is not impossible or even improbable to find Beastfoe with other units, considering you can take advantage of the Biorhythm bonus, and have two map squares with which to play with. Certainly he is not responsible for everything that you get out of Beastfoe, unless you're prepared to put Marcia in Top tier for recruiting Haar.

Beastkiller is nothing special. The HIT on it is poor, Sothe can't OHKO Tigers, and can't double cats, so it's offense that he uses at great personal risk to himself. Curbstomping a weakened laguz, as long as you have a backup in case he misses, sure. Holding the line and hoping that he doesn't crit if more than one laguz is in range, oh and he has a chain-healer, sure.

A great deal of offense? That's a stretch. You don't want Sothe sniffing Beastfoe, so he is the fourth or fifth option in your offensive line-up.

I didn't realise that Ragnell let him fly. Chances are he's spending most of 3-11 in someone's saddlebags, where Ragnell won't really do him much good. And the germane question is, how many chapters is Ike really your MVP in? 3-P, 3-1, 4-1, 4-4. Tell me if I've missed any.

That's not the germane question here, since we clearly still care about what Ike does even when he's not strictly the #1 unit on the map. He deserves credit for all of his contributions. Ike's consistently excellent performance coupled with a near-complete lack of want for scarce resources makes him a Top tier candidate in my opinion.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Interceptor

[eclipse]

I have tried to explain this concept of Fire Emblem efficiency to my cat. She does not understand, as far as I can tell, but she also doesn't speak English and has a very small brain.

You have missed another possibility: She understands you perfect, but pretends NOT to understand. If she shows that she understands you, she'd have to listen to you instead of doing something more productive, like sleeping.

[Florete]

(and perhaps ACTUALLY at the top of High tier, once Sothe is ranked more appropriately).

Oh, I'm sorry. I'll move Sothe up right away.

Holding the line and hoping that he doesn't crit if more than one laguz is in range

It's awesome that I covered this, in a post you quoted a line from, no less.