OMG it's a tier list

[Dat Nick]

Um, doesn't everybody not named Aran get 2RKOd by the Tigers in 3-6, anyway? Then wouldn't Zihark be one of your more durable units here since he can dodge better than most of your guys?

[Colonel M]

Um, doesn't everybody not named Aran get 2RKOd by the Tigers in 3-6, anyway? Then wouldn't Zihark be one of your more durable units here since he can dodge better than most of your guys?

This.

If Zihark isn't doing statistically better than these guys, then I don't see how it's such a negative toward him. Only unit that has durability here is Nolan, and he still has risks of being 2RKOed.

[Interceptor]

Volug doesn't get 2HKO'ed. Nolan can get to 3HKO'ed with light resource use (thanks to Tarvos), and Jill can get to 3HKO'ed with considerable resource use. Leo gets 2HKO'ed, but will not counter-attack with his PRF bow (so he is safer on Enemy Phase).

Unfortunately, dodging when you get 2HKO'ed is pretty dicey, because the mob only has to hit the lottery twice. The people who mention Resolve for Zihark ought also to mention that his chance to get hit when Resolve is up is also his chance to die.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Interceptor

[Colonel M]

Volug doesn't get 2HKO'ed. Nolan can get to 3HKO'ed with light resource use (thanks to Tarvos), and Jill can get to 3HKO'ed with considerable resource use. Leo gets 2HKO'ed, but will not counter-attack with his PRF bow (so he is safer on Enemy Phase).

Only question I have to ask is can Zihark do the same now? Also, I did forget Volug.

Unfortunately, dodging when you get 2HKO'ed is pretty dicey, because the mob only has to hit the lottery twice. The people who mention Resolve for Zihark ought also to mention that his chance to get hit when Resolve is up is also his chance to die.

It's better than being guaranteed 2HKOed in comparison to a lot of these units. Zihark can at least twist it a bit with the Avoid rate and thickets aren't entirely out of the question.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Colonel M

[dondon151]

Except that there aren't any characters that want Water over their other support.

I already said, characters that join before 1-5 will want Water over other support options until about 1-8 when they can begin building other supports. Nolan might want Zihark, but for 1-4 to 1-7 he'll want another support in the interim, and Leo's better than Eddie for that.

[Interceptor]

Only question I have to ask is can Zihark do the same now? Also, I did forget Volug.

Zihark cannot get to 3HKO'ed if that's what you are asking. If you are asking if Zihark can do equivalently, the answer is also "no". Giving him Resolve is more harmful to the army than giving Robe/Draco to Jill, by any reasonable measure of what these resources could do in the hands of other units. Also, Resolve does not necessarily make Zihark unkillable, either, and since it only works when he's basically one hit from death, this is a pretty dicey scenario to suggest that he's using it.

It's better than being guaranteed 2HKOed in comparison to a lot of these units.

That makes him better than a unit like Sothe, who is also 2HKO'ed with nothing to do about it, at a higher HIT rate. It makes him better than garbage units like Meg or Fiona. It makes him somewhat better than Eddie. That's about it for frontliners.

[charmander6000]

I already said, characters that join before 1-5 will want Water over other support options until about 1-8 when they can begin building other supports. Nolan might want Zihark, but for 1-4 to 1-7 he'll want another support in the interim, and Leo's better than Eddie for that.

That's fine except now Leonardo is left without a support and won't be able to build another one until Tauroneo comes back or part 4.

Edited June 22, 2009 by charmander6000

[Colonel M]

Zihark cannot get to 3HKO'ed if that's what you are asking. If you are asking if Zihark can do equivalently, the answer is also "no". Giving him Resolve is more harmful to the army than giving Robe/Draco to Jill, by any reasonable measure of what these resources could do in the hands of other units. Also, Resolve does not necessarily make Zihark unkillable, either, and since it only works when he's basically one hit from death, this is a pretty dicey scenario to suggest that he's using it.

I meant scratching Resolve and giving him the Robe/Draco instead of Jill. I know Resolve is a dangerous but slightly useful approach.

That makes him better than a unit like Sothe, who is also 2HKO'ed with nothing to do about it, at a higher HIT rate. It makes him better than garbage units like Meg or Fiona. It makes him somewhat better than Eddie. That's about it for frontliners.

Nolan is likely facing hits all the time (maybe he can dodge something if he supports with Volug / Zihark but then again works slightly in Zihark's favor). Also, couldn't Zihark / Jill be a possible support since despite missing out on uber unnecessary Avoid and the slight Mov disadvantage (big deal for the most part)?

[dondon151]

Note that NolanxLeo B is the same thing as NolanxEarth C except with +1 atk and +1 def. This is likely to be what will happen by 1-E (though NolanxLeo A is likely, with even better bonuses), so in the short run Nolan would still rather support Leo over Zihark or Volug. Then, by 3-6 you'll have NolanxLeo A against NolanxEarth B. The former gives +2 atk and +2 def while the latter gives +7 avo. The main difference here now is that Nolan would really like that +2 def, as it helps him to survive 2 rounds of combat against tigers in tandem with Tarvos's +4 def, while still retaining an avo bonus. The drawback is that Nolan doesn't give out that extra 7 avo to his potential earth supporter (likely Zihark), so we'll have to weigh the advantage of increasing Nolan's concrete durability against decreasing Zihark's chances of surviving 2 rounds of combat.

Edited June 22, 2009 by dondon151

[Interceptor]

I meant scratching Resolve and giving him the Robe/Draco instead of Jill. I know Resolve is a dangerous but slightly useful approach.

And that's what I answered: Zihark still gets mauled by tigers even with a Robe/Draco. He might be able ot crawl out of the hole sooner, though, as he levels, I haven't checked the numbers lately.

Nolan is likely facing hits all the time (maybe he can dodge something if he supports with Volug / Zihark but then again works slightly in Zihark's favor). Also, couldn't Zihark / Jill be a possible support since despite missing out on uber unnecessary Avoid and the slight Mov disadvantage (big deal for the most part)?

Zihark/Jill is certainly possible, but to what end? If you do THAT with a Draco and a Robe, that might make enough of a difference, especially if he's in a thicket.

The point of getting 3HKO'ed is that you can take two hits on Enemy Phase, or take a hit and then take a counter, and still have a 100% chance of survival (the laguz cannot crit anywhere here). If you are 2HKO'ed, every time you get hit you have to decide whether you want to chance a dodge, because you'll be resetting if it fails. This is especially a pain in the ass for Zihark, since Adept/crits means that he will randomly kill more people than you intended. Compare this to Nolan, who has a very low critical hit rate, and does not double anything: his Enemy Phase activity is very predictable.

[Progenitus]

I love it when int always initiates Operation Sandbag Zihark, especially when he tries to downplay his offense.

I'll just repost this for now.

Anyway, Zihark's offense was seriously getting sandbagged. Here's a common situation where the offense becomes useful (by "common", it's more like "happens every turn").

You're at the left chokepoint in 3-6 with the water. Zihark one rounds something on his player phase (he kills cats pretty easily, and has a good chance to do it vs tigers). Since the laguz only have 1 move in the water, if your other unit also kills the laguz in front of him (or you positioned the two units such that other one is one space diagonally in Zihark), this leaves Zihark open to only one attack at most. If you heal him he'll be completely fine.

On the other hand if you had someone like Jill in the same place, she's almost never one rounding, which means the enemy will attack her again on enemy phase because it's still hanging around, plus another laguz will likely come in, exposing Jill to 3 attacks over both phases. You'd have to heal Jill as well in the same situation, only you're taking longer to kill off the laguz than Zihark.

Or you could send Zihark to the right side, but now there are thickets to work with which give +10 avoid, so his durability skyrockets anyway.

btw, don't even bother to say "lolleo with beastfoe does the same thing", since that's leo + beastfoe (and suckingmassively in part 1) versus zihark + nothing.

I also want proof or some sort of reasoning as to why a robe + shield for Jill is less favoritism than resolve for Zihark.

Edited June 22, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Interceptor]

I'll just repost this for now.

And here we go again: instead of responding to the real point, you respond to something tangential or only nominally related.

The issue with Zihark's 3-6/3-13 offense is that it's pretty good, but you have to slap a limiter on it, because otherwise he dies. Credit for potential offensive power is not without precedent, such as in Volug's early Part 1 performance (where he is not necessarily using it to full effect, but it is always there if you need it), but you actually have to be able to use it without getting yourself killed in order for it to be a credible advantage.

This common situation that you've laid out, where Zihark easily kills cats and has a good chance to do vs. tigers... what? How? He's not doubling the 22 AS cats, and even if he had the AS he doesn't have the mt for a clean kill, as there are no 17-18mt Swords at this point in the game. I suppose he's using the Brave Sword? Even with that, he needs a crit for a kill, since 27mt isn't actually enough to 3HKO a cat with 42HP and 14DEF. God help you if Zihark gets STR-screwed or if the cat is in reeds. Even if I round up favorably for his crit values, the cat is still left alive 70% of the time when he doesn't double.

I actually can't even untangle this yarnball until you're clear about exactly what weapon Zihark is assumed to be using. If it's Brave, say so, if it's a forge, say so.

btw, don't even bother to say "lolleo with beastfoe does the same thing", since that's leo + beastfoe (and suckingmassively in part 1) versus zihark + nothing.

Sorry, but I don't hold points back just because they make people's arguments look silly. Basically everyone who replied to my Leo post completely missed the point of why I brought it up in the first place.

Leonardo is a bad unit. Really bad. He's a backliner that can't double, can't take a hit, and doesn't even hit hard. Sucks. Zihark totally blows him away all throughout Part 1. But then 3-6 arrives, and Leonardo -- the crappiest archer in the entire game -- is suddenly comparable to Zihark. Why? Because he gets 2HKO'ed just like Z does, but he does it without getting countered, without countering himself, and as a special bonus he's occasionally completely invincible due to a laguz untranformation (aka a laguz runs out of meter right in front of him. For most units this is a huge pain in the ass, but Leo can't hit it anyway so he just fires at any of the other 3+ positions and enjoys not getting attacked while the laguz regenerates gauge).

Beastfoe is really nice for Leo since it allows him to blick one laguz every turn, without fail and without getting countered, and it's 100% safe to put him on the front lines to use it. But, you don't even need to use Beastfoe: he's still 2RKO on all Tigers and 3RKO on all cats, with a 18-19% listed crit. That means he's also about 33% ORKO on Tigers and 18-19% on cats, which isn't going to impress anyone, but is free, 100% safe, and better than a kick in the pants. Lord help the untransformed cats, who Leo is 100% on.

That's the point of the Leo story. Not that he is amazing, but that Zihark is actually so fragile in this chapter, that Leonardo is fogging up his rear view mirror.

I also want proof or some sort of reasoning as to why a robe + shield for Jill is less favoritism than resolve for Zihark.

Favoritism is not some catch-all word that means that something is verboten. Giving a resource to a unit is merely an opportunity cost: you can't give it to someone else. Maybe it's permanent like a kill or BEXP, or temporary like a skill, but even in the case of a skill there is a specific period of time where one unit denies it to all other potentials. Taking this idea to its logical conclusion, that means that some resources are more "favoritism" than others, because some skills/affinities/items/weapons are really very game-changing, and you leave a lot on the table by giving it to one unit over another.

The easiest example is Adept in Part 3. It's very easy to argue that people that double but 3HKO are basically the best candidates for this skill. We can accept that even though Adept on a unit that 2RKOs whilst not doubling will also result in a kill, it happens less than half as often as the first scenario. Compare Mia to Soren, draw up a quick and dirty assessment of who gets left on the table when one of them gets it, and you'll see that Mia gets left on the table in Soren's scenario, and Soren in Mia's. They share the rest of the GMs. She's outperforming him with it by a factor of more than 2 to 1 (actually almost 3 to 1) just in skill activations, never mind actual opportunity to use it. Mia does well even when compared against a good unit like Titania with this skill. This does not mean that Mia gets this skill for free, but she does better in terms of opportunity cost left on the table than basically anyone else.

So my point here -- and I do have one -- is that not all favoritism is created equal. It's not sufficient to say "if Inty-kun gets Y, then Smish-sama gets something of equal value", because value is based heavily on what the resource is, what can be done with it, and what gets left on the table as a result. This means that even the exact same skill/resource is not necessarily"equal" value, such as in the case of Adept for Mia vs. for Titania.

Returning to Jill and Zihark: the first problem with Resolve is what gets left on the table. I can't send it to the GMs, so every possible use here can't happen because Zihark has it, and this includes hybrid strategies like giving it to Mia when Mordecai is not around, and Mord when he is. I don't think that I really need to get into how ridiculously hax that Mordecai is with Resolve, or how Mia turns invincible, or how any number of other units can go from not doubling to doubling... hell I can even make Soren good with it, since getting him under half health is as difficult as falling out of bed, and now he can double everything with high 30's mt and targetting RES, aka he ORKOs fucking everything, as long as I protect him.

But no matter how much better Zihark is than something retarded like Resolve + Soren, the fact of the matter is he's only really using it for 3-4 chapters compared to 9 with the GMs. Notice how even if Zihark is doing twice as much as his counterpart in the GMs would do when it comes to completing the game, he still loses because of the short time that he has it.

The second problem with Resolve is what Zihark does with it. This skill only activates at <50% health, and Zihark is 2HKO'ed basically by a ton of combinations, so those amongst us may notice that this skill is only up when Zihark is one hit from buying the farm (never mind the nightmare scenario when Zihark actually get injured by a rare something that 3HKOs him, and he's facing one-hit-from-death perhaps by something that will do more than 50% of his health, aka no Resolve bonus).

His chance to get hit basically becomes his chance to die. You can get his listed hit down to 0%, but it requires A Earth (very difficult to get this by 3-6, impossible without slowing down the army), and a thicket if he's bio-screwed. That's the only scenario where this is really an effective use of the skill. Even at something like 1% True is playing with fire, because the chance to die compounds itself over the course of a chapter, as you risk it repeatedly. Consider that a 1% chance to die in a single hit becomes a ~5% chance to die over a chapter that contains five such situations. And this isn't stock Zihark, here, where that figure might be acceptable: this is a requirement for even using Resolve in the first place. If you don't risk these scenarios, you are basically wasting the skill and getting nothing out of it, and this is one of the most hax and hotly desired skills in the game.

Oh, and it's useless in 3-13, where no thickets exist, no swamp slows anyone down, and everyone gets +15 HIT. Everyone on the other team, that is. I should probably count that chapter against Zihark, for basically not using the skill effectively at all. And even if he gives it to someone else in the DB to mitiagte it, who is even good enough to use it? Volug? You'd have to cap his SPD or something ridiculous like that, since he's still getting 3HKO'ed here by tigers.

The third problem here is with consumables: we can ship those two items to the GMs, but they are locked on whoever uses them, meaning that nobody in the DB uses the items and I sit on them for the whole Part. The salient point here is that Jill with Draco/Robe is using them as early as 1-6 (a delay, but one that gets longer), and she's benefitting literally in every chapter that she's present in. This extends to Part 3, and even to Part 4, since she doesn't cap either HP or DEF for any significant amount of time. These items are doing more than just making her 3HKO'ed by more combinations in 3-6, it's also helping in 3-12 and 3-13, especially 3-13 where avoid-tanks are getting mauled but concrete defense is exactly as good as it was in 3-6.

This would be much easier to adjudicate if Zihark actually got something considerable out of Draco/Robe, since they share availibility outside of 1-8, but he does not. I feel bad that Zihark's base DEF is so shitty that he still gets 2HKO'ed, and the only thing he can really use to mitigate it is the best skills in the game that's better off shipped somewhere else, but it's not my problem.

The overall point is that so much good shit gets left on the table with Zihark + Resolve, that I can't really see it as being equivalent to a couple of stat-boosters. I don't mean to downplay the impact of using two boosters, because it's considerable favoritism, but the issue is that Resolve is REALLY that good, and Zihark is really not doing anything substantial with it.

By the way, a million pages ago someone mentioned that we don't know how long it takes to supprot people in 1-6. Well, from memory, I recall that Z and Nolan spending 10 turns next to each other isn't enough for a C by 1-7. There need to be more turns, and/or some shoving. It's possible to get to C by 1-7, but not without slowing you down or otherwise constraining the army, and it still requires the crazy bullshit of getting to B by 1-8 and then plowing A by the end of 1-E (aka, not happening without even more delaying tactics). Hell, it doesn't even fix his problem unless you also accompany this magic support with Resolve, since he's still getting 2HKO'ed at pretty scary hit rates (scary for someone who is 2HKO'ed).

I'm done.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Interceptor

[Dat Nick]

Leo is likely to get doubled by the cats though [20-22 AS], which hurts his durability win over Zihark.

[Interceptor]

Leo is likely to get doubled by the cats though [20-22 AS], which hurts his durability win over Zihark.

Leo's PRF bow has +5 SPD on it. His base SPD would need to be 13 in order to get doubled even by the fastest cats, which is clearly not happening. Try again.

[dondon151]

Anyway, Zihark's offense was seriously getting sandbagged. Here's a common situation where the offense becomes useful (by "common", it's more like "happens every turn").

You're at the left chokepoint in 3-6 with the water. Zihark one rounds something on his player phase (he kills cats pretty easily, and has a good chance to do it vs tigers). Since the laguz only have 1 move in the water, if your other unit also kills the laguz in front of him (or you positioned the two units such that other one is one space diagonally in Zihark), this leaves Zihark open to only one attack at most. If you heal him he'll be completely fine.

Problems:

- Zihark doesn't OHKO cats or tigers without some mad luck with Adept and crit, so he eats a counter. This requires a heal.

- IIRC laguz have more than 1 move in water untransformed, and enemy laguz like to charge untransformed.

- Zihark requires lots of your healing resources. You have 2 fronts, requiring about 5 units to hold them. In addition to healing off enemy phase, Zihark now needs to heal off player phase as well. You only have 3 healers available. What this means that if Zihark attacks on player phase, someone else can't attack on player phase.

- If Zihark doesn't ORKO the enemy, he is in deep shit.

On the other hand if you had someone like Jill in the same place, she's almost never one rounding, which means the enemy will attack her again on enemy phase because it's still hanging around, plus another laguz will likely come in, exposing Jill to 3 attacks over both phases. You'd have to heal Jill as well in the same situation, only you're taking longer to kill off the laguz than Zihark.

Except Jill will never attack on player phase unless she can kill something, so it's unfair to impose this scenario on her. She can also use flying + Canto to chip away with Hand Axes on player phase, which doesn't require a heal.

btw, don't even bother to say "lolleo with beastfoe does the same thing", since that's leo + beastfoe (and suckingmassively in part 1) versus zihark + nothing.

"Sucking massively in part 1" doesn't mean that Leo won't be promoted by 3-6. Leo needs only 8-9 levels on average to reach the point where ??/1 Leo will not be doubled by the fastest cats. He then requires one of the DB's 4 unsellable Master Seals.

I don't personally think that Zihark is that bad on 3-6, but when I was completing 3-6 Zihark was one of two reasons why I had to reset, the other being the partner units doing dumb shit that got my units killed.

Edited June 23, 2009 by dondon151

[Vykan12]

Does NOBODY ever take her doubling/crits and possible Adept usage into account?

I could, but that doesn’t change the fact that her offence is sub-par in part 3. Once your core GMs get into doubling mode, they ORKO reliably while she’s still depending on activation %ages to kill. Even when they don’t, they can still nab an enemy in the same amount of rounds as her, plus have other ways of exerting better offence (non-sucky 1-2 range mainly).

Also WTF@ the GMs in 3-5/3-7: not unless they double, kiddo. Ike, sure. Gatrie, probably, with a crown. Titania? Still not doubling. Shinon? Still doesn't counter. Oscar? Tier 2 SPD cap, mt problems. Are we gonna throw lolcat Ranulf in here?

Titania can push for a promotion by 3-5/3-7 with some BEXP (she’s close to all her caps anyway so it’s a productive use of resources), which gives her ample AS. If Haar got a speedwing, there’s a good chance he has 24 AS by now. Ike doesn’t have any issues. Shinon’s offence with a crossbow is similar to that of Mia with a wind edge, and his support partner can always trade that into his inventory so it’s only used on E. phase. Crowned Gatrie has 25 AS, which gets most things up until 3-8 (some 22 AS enemies there). By 3-7, you now have 3 laguz who can double anything, and either hawk with just an energy drop can ORKO anything but wyverns/generals reliably, the former being a borderline case.

Oh, and I don’t think you’re giving Mia’s lack of MT due credit. With a forged steel sword, a --/11/0 Mia only does 131% damage to 3-4 sages. I’ve seen her 2RKO some of them with weaker weaponry, particularly wind edges so she can counter them.

It is his real peers -- Sothe, Nolan, Volug, Jill, Aran, Tormod, Vika, and Maurim -- that his durabilility is most often set up against.

Why are you mentioning Jill and Tormod? They’re clearly less durable than him in every part of the game.

As for Nolan, here’s a re-post of my 3-6 comparison between them:

Nolan lv 20/1 (B Zihark): 38 hp, 18 AS, 14 def (18 with tarvos), 80 avo

Zihark lv 20/6 (B Nolan): 32 hp, 25 AS, 14 def, 92 avo

Cat lvl 15

HP 42, Atk 27, AS 20, Hit 137, Avo 47, DEF 14, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 7

13 damage to Zihark, 9-13 to Nolan. Zihark is 3HKOed while Nolan is 3-5HKOed. Advantage for Nolan before considering avo.

Cat lvl 16

HP 43, Atk 29, AS 22, Hit 141, Avo 51, DEF 14, RES 10, Crit 11, Ddg 7

15 damage to Zihark, 22-30 to Nolan. Zihark is getting 3HKOed while Nolan is being 2HKOed.

Tiger lvl 15

HP 48, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 136, Avo 38, DEF 18, RES 6, Crit 10, Ddg 6

25 damage to Zihark, 21-25 to Nolan. Both get 2HKOed by these guys even if Nolan is using the tarvos, so Zihark wins when avo is considered.

Seems to me like Nolan’s actually losing overall durability in this level, and I haven’t even brought up resolve.

Nolan has to both use Tarvos and a seraph robe to be 3HKOed by tigers, though the 41 atk ones would still 2HKO him.

Adding Aran into the picture, a 17/1 Aran would have 31 hp/18 def/14 AS. Tigers actually do 67% damage per hit and double him, and this isn’t even covering his obvious lack of avo, so he’s clearly losing durability.

Actually, let’s bring Vika into this too.

Zihark lv --/5/0 (B Volug): 31 hp, 14 def, 90 avo

Vika lv 13: 38 hp, 14 def, 74 avo

16 avo >>> 7 hp, and this is not even considering the fact that Vika can’t transform until turn 3 in 2/3rds of her chapters, or that bows 1HKO her, which is especially bad if they attack from a height advantage.

Oh wow, Nolan beats Zihark in durability in one chapter, and that’s if he gets a specific set of resources. If Zihark took a thunder support instead of an earth one, he’s lose to Nolan in avo by single digits while gaining 2 def. By that point he’d only need 2 stat boosters to Nolan’s 1 to tie him against tigers, and he’s still beating cats due to never being doubled by them. Aside from that and the 3 true “godmode” characters, that leaves Volug.

Should I point out how many units Mia loses durability to during part 3?

The point is not that Zihark dies, although that's obviously an issue. The point is that Zihark getting 2HKO'ed changes your playstyle to account for it, aka what you just posted above. The GMs lose Resolve, you have to position your units precisely to protect Zihark, and you have to put a limiter on his offense.

You have to change your playstyle for any unit in 3-6. Getting 3HKOed will still easily get you killed without some drastic precaution due to how many enemies can access you in a single turn.

Oh, and the GMs losing resolve and Zihark limiting his offence don’t go hand in hand. It’s one or the other. Resolve allows Zihark to be invincible on a vine when he’s in normal/high bio, at which point he can freely kill whatever he wants on that turn’s enemy phase (just switch him to a decent weapon). Once that passes, he can de-equip himself, or use a bronze sword or what have you since he’s already gotten himself all the CEXP he’s demanded.

The GMs would have it for 9 chapters to the DBs 3-4. Logic suggests that you'd need to get 2-3 times the per-chapter usefulness when used in the DB, otherwise it's a net loss. This seems unlikely to me, especially when used on Zihark.

The major difference is the comparative difficulty between part 3 DB and GM chapters. You mentioned Mia can become truly invincible with resolve active, but she’s facing display hit in the teens before it activates, so the difference is purely offensive.

At any rate, transferring DB resources to the GMs for prolonged use affects every DB, not just Zihark. Without it, he’ll have a harder time racking up CEXP in 3-6, but Nolan/Aran/whoever will have a worse time doing so without something like paragon, so he’s still going to be pulling ahead of all his non-Volug teammates one way or another.

You have fewer good units here than the GMs, and Zihark is definitely doing way better now that he's facing tier 2 beorcs, but you don't actually need more units than what you already have.

What are you saying? That we kill 40+ enemies from atop the western ledge? Sure, this level may not have a BEXP turn count, but that doesn’t mean the notion of efficiency is abandoned. The logic that Zihark isn’t ‘needed’ in this chapter can be used against any GM, including Mia, so I don’t see the relevance.

Never mind that nothing about 3-13 actually requires you to kill anything but hawks, so Zihark's "kills" are completely self-serving.

Again, this argument can be pulled against Mia in like half her GM chapters.

3-3: Celerity!Haar and maybe a filler unit have the map’s goals covered. Most of the actual combat in this level is superfluous.

3-5: Defend map with a fixed turn count if you don’t kill Lombroso.

3-7: Fixed turn count.

3-E: The map will be beaten no matter how little you interfere in it.

Except that Mia didn't just take a shitload of BEXP to fix her STR and get to promotion. Take away the BEXP, and now Zihark doesn't have Astra, and his STR might be far enough behind to matter. And he loses crit in real terms, as well.

I gave Mia roughly the same amount of BEXP to get her to promotion. Starting at --/7/0 while other non-sucky GMs start at least 4 levels higher has its drawbacks, and in later maps she has trouble racking up kills due to several higher move units being able to out-perform her in melee.

If only the units you just compared actually fit into that bucket. For you to call Zihark "god-moding" in Part 1, and then turn around and call Mia "decent" in Part 3, is for you to use two different measuring sticks for these units. In order for this to reflect a real situation, you'd have to send BK/Nailah/Tauroneo on a vacation and sandbag Mia's Part 3 offense/durability by not giving her anything.

Never mind that there are other mitigating factors, like how Mia has more chapters in-game than Zihark does unless he defects, which would suggest that she'd win even if they tied.

You can interpret the word “godmoding” and “decent” as exaggerations, but there’s virtually no denying that part 1 Zihark >> part 3 Mia with respect to each other’s armies. The availability advantage is only 3 chapters, which doesn’t really cancel that lead.

[grandjackal]

Speaking of Zihark's durability, wouldn't Adept increase his chances of killing a laguz due to third attack and another chance to crit and thus kill and thus bring in another laguz to attack him actually make him a riskier unit to use? To be on the safe side, you'd either have to remove it from him, or give him a bronze sword, which would make him have that much harder a time actually completing the mission.

Or am I missing something that makes this sound like I'm talking out my ass?

[Vykan12]

Beastfoe Volug and later the BK seem to be enemy magnets for some strange reason. I'm not even sure what causes them to attack Zihark, though maybe it was the fact that I gave him a brave sword (low damage vs tigers). Once I switched him to a silver blade, the enemies left him alone.

[dondon151]

Speaking of Zihark's durability, wouldn't Adept increase his chances of killing a laguz due to third attack and another chance to crit and thus kill and thus bring in another laguz to attack him actually make him a riskier unit to use? To be on the safe side, you'd either have to remove it from him, or give him a bronze sword, which would make him have that much harder a time actually completing the mission.

This is what we're talking about. Has anyone ever considered removing Adept from Zihark? Generally in lategame comparisons I don't see him having another 15 capacity skill, so this doesn't actually hurt him.

I could, but that doesn’t change the fact that her offence is sub-par in part 3. Once your core GMs get into doubling mode, they ORKO reliably while she’s still depending on activation %ages to kill. Even when they don’t, they can still nab an enemy in the same amount of rounds as her, plus have other ways of exerting better offence (non-sucky 1-2 range mainly).

Your examples illustrated that "doubling mode" happens around 3-7, but Mia has 3-P through 3-5 where she's doubling while Titania, Oscar, Gatrie, Boyd, Haar are not (if none of them have Speedwings).

(Nolan gets doubled by cats)

Nolan grows out of 18 AS very quickly, probably in 2-3 turns, so he decidedly overtakes Zihark's durability over the course of the chapter.

You have to change your playstyle for any unit in 3-6. Getting 3HKOed will still easily get you killed without some drastic precaution due to how many enemies can access you in a single turn.

3RKO'd is better than 2RKO'd. 3RKO'd can afford to have one unlucky moment.

Just some nitpicks with your post.

Edited June 23, 2009 by dondon151

[Jaybee]

silver blade

Silver Sword, right?

Beastfoe Volug and later the BK seem to be enemy magnets for some strange reason. I'm not even sure what causes them to attack Zihark, though maybe it was the fact that I gave him a brave sword (low damage vs tigers). Once I switched him to a silver blade, the enemies left him alone.

I think it may be because the enemies are set to attack any unit in range. If BK is the only asshole in range, they charge at him. Also, I think it may be because the Brave did less damage than a Silver. Once Zihark equipped it, he did more damage than Volug, so the enemies went to Volug? Thats my theory.

[grandjackal]

This is what we're talking about. Has anyone ever considered removing Adept from Zihark? Generally in lategame comparisons I don't see him having another 15 capacity skill, so this doesn't actually hurt him.

Isn't it also a thought that he is not the only person able to use this ability?

[dondon151]

Silver Sword, right?

If not Silver Sword, Steel Blade, which wins in MT.

Isn't it also a thought that he is not the only person able to use this ability?

See I've never seen anyone say "we should remove Adept from Zihark and give it to anyone else," so removing Adept from Zihark doesn't mean that when it's safe to use again, it's necessarily going to someone else.

[Vykan12]

Now for this whole Leonardo example:

Beastfoe is really nice for Leo since it allows him to blick one laguz every turn, without fail and without getting countered, and it's 100% safe to put him on the front lines to use it. But, you don't even need to use Beastfoe: he's still 2RKO on all Tigers and 3RKO on all cats, with a 18-19% listed crit. That means he's also about 33% ORKO on Tigers and 18-19% on cats, which isn't going to impress anyone, but is free, 100% safe, and better than a kick in the pants. Lord help the untransformed cats, who Leo is 100% on.

What level are you assuming Leo reaches for any of this to be true? Being under-leveled, limited to 1 player phase attack (he can’t even use bowguns/crossbows in tier 1) and doing pitiful damage makes it virtually impossible for him to be lv 20/1 in 1-E. A 14/1 Leo doesn’t double tigers and only deals 8-10 damage per hit, so he’s 5+HKOing those.

If you’re going to make examples with the purpose of ridiculing Zihark’s durability, at least make them realistic.

[grandjackal]

See I've never seen anyone say "we should remove Adept from Zihark and give it to anyone else," so removing Adept from Zihark doesn't mean that when it's safe to use again, it's necessarily going to someone else.

True, but now that it's out, he is not specifically entitled to it. Nothing is stopping others from using it.

I mean hell, weren't you people arguing about Resolve? I believe we got that from Tauroneo, because he was not gonna be using it. Zihark here would rather just not have it on, at least not for part 3.

[Vykan12]

Your examples illustrated that "doubling mode" happens around 3-7, but Mia has 3-P through 3-5 where she's doubling while Titania, Oscar, Gatrie, Boyd, Haar are not (if none of them have Speedwings).

Mia also only has a steel sword/wo dao in 3-P and 3-1, so it's more like 3-4 chapters where her crit/adept is doing anything noticeably better than others.

I'm not going to deny that Nolan probably wins durability in 3-6, but it's a lot more relevant that he loses everywhere else.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Vykan12