OMG it's a tier list

[dondon151]

What level are you assuming Leo reaches for any of this to be true? Being under-leveled, limited to 1 player phase attack (he can’t even use bowguns/crossbows in tier 1) and doing pitiful damage makes it virtually impossible for him to be lv 20/1 in 1-E. A 14/1 Leo doesn’t double tigers and only deals 8-10 damage per hit, so he’s 5+HKOing those.

14/1 Leo has a significant chance at doubling tigers. He averages 19.5 AS to the tigers' 16.

True, but now that it's out, he is not specifically entitled to it. Nothing is stopping others from using it.

I mean hell, weren't you people arguing about Resolve? I believe we got that from Tauroneo, because he was not gonna be using it. Zihark here would rather just not have it on, at least not for part 3.

No one wants it in 3-6 unless he won't attack on enemy phase. Skills being innate isn't a very strong argument for units keeping those skills, so it makes no difference whether or not Adept is already removed. Later on Zihark still makes the best use of it because he has the highest activation rate along with multiple chances at activation.

Though I suppose we could try sending it to the GMs har har

Mia also only has a steel sword/wo dao in 3-P and 3-1, so it's more like 3-4 chapters where her crit/adept is doing anything noticeably better than others.

Adept + Wo Dao means a giant chance for critical in a round of combat, and nothing except generals could possibly survive that.

I'm not going to deny that Nolan probably wins durability in 3-6, but it's a lot more relevant that he loses everywhere else.

But "everywhere else" is nowhere near as important as durability in 3-6.

Edited June 23, 2009 by dondon151

[Vykan12]

14/1 Leo has a significant chance at doubling tigers. He averages 19.5 AS to the tigers' 16.

Some tigers have 18 AS and even if he doubles, it's a 3RKO at best.

But "everywhere else" is nowhere near as important as durability in 3-6.

Why? 3-6 isn't some insurmountable obstacle that completely ruins Zihark.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Vykan12

[grandjackal]

No one wants it in 3-6 unless he won't attack on enemy phase. Skills being innate isn't a very strong argument for units keeping those skills, so it makes no difference whether or not Adept is already removed. Later on Zihark still makes the best use of it because he has the highest activation rate along with multiple chances at activation.

Though I suppose we could try sending it to the GMs har har

No one's forcing us to equip it. We can just remove it, slap it back on 3-12, remove it again for 3-13, or just keep it off till part 4, where there are still others who can use it still.

[dondon151]

Some tigers have 18 AS and even if he doubles, it's a 3RKO at best.

The level 17 tigers have 18 AS, so that's like 4/77 enemies. Against the level 14 and 15 tigers, Leo needs only a point in strength to 2RKO them.

Why? 3-6 isn't some insurmountable obstacle that completely ruins Zihark.

I never said it was. I said that Nolan's durability lead in 3-6 trumps whatever other leads Zihark has in that chapter.

I should probably smack myself because I just realized that "everywhere else" did not refer to "everywhere else in 3-6."

No one's forcing us to equip it. We can just remove it, slap it back on 3-12, remove it again for 3-13, or just keep it off till part 4, where there are still others who can use it still.

If there are still others who can use Adept, then why does no one ever say "let's remove Adept from Zihark and give it to someone else?" Because as I said, it makes no difference whether or not skills are innate.

If we're going to keep it off till part 4, might as well transfer it to the GMs so that it'll see some use.

Edited June 23, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

If there are still others who can use Adept, then why does no one ever say "let's remove Adept from Zihark and give it to someone else?" Because as I said, it makes no difference whether or not skills are innate.

If we're going to keep it off till part 4, might as well transfer it to the GMs so that it'll see some use.

Oh. Well, my misunderstanding then.

Pardon moi.

[Interceptor]

I could, but that doesn’t change the fact that her offence is sub-par in part 3. Once your core GMs get into doubling mode, they ORKO reliably while she’s still depending on activation %ages to kill. Even when they don’t, they can still nab an enemy in the same amount of rounds as her, plus have other ways of exerting better offence (non-sucky 1-2 range mainly).

Her offense is not sub-par, it's above par by the very definition of the word. When tons of people are 2RKOing, and you are 2RKOing with a higher chance of a ORKO than basically anyone else, guess what, you're winning offense. This is the primary difference between Mia in NM and Mia in HM: her offensive power barely changes at all, while nearly everyone else takes a nosedive.

The fact of the matter is, she beats even some of the "core" GMs on offense. The ones that she doesn't, or the ones that eventually surpass her for a time, or have other aspects of utility that put them ahead, they are higher than she is on the tier list for that reason (or should be). The only unit that consistently smoking her on offense is Ike. Everyone else has an asterisk next to their name, or just fails.

I can't beleive that you just suggested that Shinon with a Crossbow is somehow comparable to Mia.

wind edges

Storm swords.

Oh, and I don’t think you’re giving Mia’s lack of MT due credit.

Mia's "lack of mt" is very easily mitigated by things that she has in great supply: crit and SPD. The only unit type that gives her any trouble at all is a General, and she can STILL kill one of those in the right situation.

Why are you mentioning Jill and Tormod? They’re clearly less durable than him in every part of the game.

Tormod ties an unsupported Zihark for raw durability in 1-7, and then wins it in practice because he doesn't get countered. He maintains his 2-range advantage forever, and Zihark only gains in supports.

As for Nolan, here’s a re-post of my 3-6 comparison between them:

Your Nolan comparision fails for giving him a support he doesn't necessarily want, no HP/DEF boosts whatsoever, and sticking him at 20/1 (not to mention that he levels up quickly anyway once this chapter gets going).

Adding Aran into the picture, a 17/1 Aran

What. Did you ignore my rant on lower-levelled units and how much faster they level up relative to higher-levle units in HM? Of course you did.

Actually, let’s bring Vika into this too.

What the fuck. Vika is not in Part 3, nor is Zihark going to have B Volug in any of their shared chapters, except 1-E. She's stomping him for durability in 1-7, and she can transform on turn 2 in 1-8 owing to the Bandit trick.

Oh wow, Nolan beats Zihark in durability in one chapter, and that’s if he gets a specific set of resources.

So how's Zihark doing in 3-13? Oh, right, even less useful than he was in 3-6.

Should I point out how many units Mia loses durability to during part 3?

I've got a better idea: point out what unit is roflstomping Mia like Tauroneo, Nailah, and BK do to Zihark in Part 1 (and 3-6). And while you're at it, tell me the name of the Part 3 chapter where Mia's durability is so awful, that she's getting shown up by Rolf.

You have to change your playstyle for any unit in 3-6. Getting 3HKOed will still easily get you killed without some drastic precaution due to how many enemies can access you in a single turn.

Some units require more restrictive playstyles than others. 2HKO'ed units are a lot tricker than 3HKO'ed units.

Oh, and the GMs losing resolve and Zihark limiting his offence don’t go hand in hand. It’s one or the other. Resolve allows Zihark to be invincible on a vine when he’s in normal/high bio, at which point he can freely kill whatever he wants on that turn’s enemy phase (just switch him to a decent weapon). Once that passes, he can de-equip himself, or use a bronze sword or what have you since he’s already gotten himself all the CEXP he’s demanded.

And you also have to abuse him to A Earth by 3-6, and all of your abuse comes to naught in 3-13 when Zihark is back to getting face-raped again. Resolve gives him two chapters. and one of which actually requires that you slow down Part 1 or make it harder.

The major difference is the comparative difficulty between part 3 DB and GM chapters. You mentioned Mia can become truly invincible with resolve active, but she’s facing display hit in the teens before it activates, so the difference is purely offensive.

The difference is both. Invincible > not invincible. Also, there's a mix factor going on owing to just how many enemies try to kill her on Enemy Phase even though she's untouchable.

At any rate, transferring DB resources to the GMs for prolonged use affects every DB, not just Zihark. Without it, he’ll have a harder time racking up CEXP in 3-6, but Nolan/Aran/whoever will have a worse time doing so without something like paragon, so he’s still going to be pulling ahead of all his non-Volug teammates one way or another.

Who's shipping Paragon to the GMs? DB can keep it. It's the only way to make one of them useful. Paragon is one situation where less is more, since the laguz CEXP is really high.

What are you saying? That we kill 40+ enemies from atop the western ledge?

No, I'm saying that you can block the ramp with two people, block the ledges with another two, and get your kills there. There is no shortage of people, here. Zihark could vanish into the aether and I'd still be able to finish 3-12.

The logic that Zihark isn’t ‘needed’ in this chapter can be used against any GM, including Mia, so I don’t see the relevance.

Yes, your point about Zihark was entirely irrelevant. Thank you for agreeing with me.

Again, this argument can be pulled against Mia in like half her GM chapters.

I wonder what magical world has 4/11 = 50%. Regardless, Mia isn't getting 2HKO'ed, and she's certainly doing more than pot-shotting with a Storm Sword over a wall. In 3-3 she's part of the army that's clearing enemies to get to items (Haar cannot do it alone), in 3-5 she's again clearing the way to get to Lombroso and his Drop, and 3-E is a faster clear. The only fair point is 3-7, which is essentially a playground, although she can help steal things.

I gave Mia roughly the same amount of BEXP to get her to promotion. Starting at --/7/0 while other non-sucky GMs start at least 4 levels higher has its drawbacks, and in later maps she has trouble racking up kills due to several higher move units being able to out-perform her in melee.

Starting 4 levels behind the other GMs has the advantage of giving her more CEXP. She closes the gap rather swiftly. Mia doesn't have trouble taking kills unless you're sandbagging her, since 7MV and footsoldier mobility is not slow. She loses to fliers, and sometimes she loses to Paladins.

You can interpret the word “godmoding” and “decent” as exaggerations, but there’s virtually no denying that part 1 Zihark >> part 3 Mia with respect to each other’s armies. The availability advantage is only 3 chapters, which doesn’t really cancel that lead.

I don't need your permission to identify your exaggerations for what they are. The latest exaggeration is actually a fantasy: Part 1 suddenly lost Tauroneo, Nailah, and the BK.

[Interceptor]

If there are still others who can use Adept, then why does no one ever say "let's remove Adept from Zihark and give it to someone else?" Because as I said, it makes no difference whether or not skills are innate.

Pardon me, but I've been saying this for a long while. Not only is it a defensive liability for Zihark in Part 3, but the GMs absolutely can make better use out of it than the DB can, and Zihark doesn't actually need the ability to combine it with another 15-cap skill.

[Dat Nick]

I've got a better idea: point out what unit is roflstomping Mia like Tauroneo, Nailah, and BK do to Zihark in Part 1

You're going to have to do more to prove that Zihark's part 1 sucks than just "Oh he's worse than our three guys who are fucking jesus tier to begin with", because every single fucking character in part 1 is getting shitstomped by those 3, and if being crushed by them means you are useless, then I guess the whole fucking Brigade in all of part 1 is fucking useless and we should never take part 1 utility into account again when determining the value of a character, hm? Hai Volug, meet low tier.

also, Let's use your line of thinking for a second, Ike shitstomps Mia, Shinon shitstomps Mia, Reyson and Ranulf do so pretty badly as well....Yeah. I don't care where the hell Zihark goes on the list, but please have better reasoning than "omg he's worse than the units who fucking trivialize part 1, he sux"

Edited June 23, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[dondon151]

Storm swords.

One of them requires you to prolong the chapter to get, and IIRC the other one is difficult to get as well, but whatever the case, Mia can't just replace Wind Edges with Storm Swords.

What. Did you ignore my rant on lower-levelled units and how much faster they level up relative to higher-levle units in HM? Of course you did.

Vykan and I can both cite PE for Aran being 17/1, and personally I think 17/1 is still generous. Average units like Jill and Nolan are having trouble reaching 20/1; I don't see how below average units like Aran who start at a lower level are even coming close.

Starting 4 levels behind the other GMs has the advantage of giving her more CEXP. She closes the gap rather swiftly. Mia doesn't have trouble taking kills unless you're sandbagging her, since 7MV and footsoldier mobility is not slow. She loses to fliers, and sometimes she loses to Paladins.

Losing by 4 levels in the beginning means that you'll still be losing by 2-3 levels later on, not that you'll be suddenly tied with other units.

Edited June 23, 2009 by dondon151

[Progenitus]

The issue with Zihark's 3-6/3-13 offense is that it's pretty good, but you have to slap a limiter on it, because otherwise he dies. Credit for potential offensive power is not without precedent, such as in Volug's early Part 1 performance (where he is not necessarily using it to full effect, but it is always there if you need it), but you actually have to be able to use it without getting yourself killed in order for it to be a credible advantage.

This common situation that you've laid out, where Zihark easily kills cats and has a good chance to do vs. tigers... what? How? He's not doubling the 22 AS cats, and even if he had the AS he doesn't have the mt for a clean kill, as there are no 17-18mt Swords at this point in the game. I suppose he's using the Brave Sword? Even with that, he needs a crit for a kill, since 27mt isn't actually enough to 3HKO a cat with 42HP and 14DEF. God help you if Zihark gets STR-screwed or if the cat is in reeds. Even if I round up favorably for his crit values, the cat is still left alive 70% of the time when he doesn't double.

I actually can't even untangle this yarnball until you're clear about exactly what weapon Zihark is assumed to be using. If it's Brave, say so, if it's a forge, say so.

he only needs to be ~20/7 to double the 22 AS cats, which considering he's like the only guy who wants paragon in part 1 (none of the tier 1 units have the cap for it, Micaiah's performance doesn't change with extra levels, and for that matter Sothe's doesn't change much either. Volug gets like 1 exp or something stupid anyway. rofl @ the other guys like Tauroneo and Tormod getting it), it's pretty easy to do that. And even if he's not 20/7 he should reach it quickly anyway.

As for killing cats, he 4HKOs most cats with a killing edge (42-43 HP, 14 or 16 def. About 2/3rds of the cats have 14 def), which means a crit with that will one round them, and he has like 45 crit. He 3HKOs easily with a forge, which means an adept will take care of the job (and a crit too). Tigers are trickier since they have ~50-52 HP and 20 def, but his offense is still a step up from Nolan/Aran, who aren't doubling either for awhile, and they're 3-4 rounding tigers when Zihark shouldn't have issues 2 rounding and can even one round if he gets lucky.

Jill probably doubles tigers (needs to be 20/1) and will have similar att to Zihark because axes have more mt than swords, but she has less crit/hit (the hit actually matters if she's not using a forged axe), and won't double cats.

Sothe and Volug are debatable. Sothe one rounds tigers but not cats, and Volug one rounds cats but not tigers. Zihark can't cleanly one round either but has crit and works better with adept than the rest of the team since it's innate.

Again, the fact that you're STILL complaining about Zihark getting 2HKO'd or "he dies" proves that you didn't even read my example. In 3-6 you can limit the number of enemies that Zihark will face on enemy phase if you stick him at the left chokepoint, and if you stick him at the right he has thickets to work with which gives a nice +10 avoid. In these situations, he won't even need resolve. Resolve is only suggested if you think throwing Zihark into a group of enemies is a smart idea.

In 3-13 there's no swamp to slow the laguz down, but you can still use Zihark easily without him dying on you. You can stick a tank at that left chokepoint in the middle ledge (I usually stick Aran there, and then Laura sits next to him to block the second space, and the NPC halb has the third) and the rest of the team goes to the area to the right of the halb (where that archer dude and two knights are sitting). In this situation you face like 4 laguz a turn and you have guys like Volug/Nolan/Sothe/Zihark/whoever else around to wipe them out on player phase, and then you just position a couple of tanks to take the next wave. Again, Zihark makes himself useful because of his offense.

Leonardo is a bad unit. Really bad. He's a backliner that can't double, can't take a hit, and doesn't even hit hard. Sucks. Zihark totally blows him away all throughout Part 1. But then 3-6 arrives, and Leonardo -- the crappiest archer in the entire game -- is suddenly comparable to Zihark. Why? Because he gets 2HKO'ed just like Z does, but he does it without getting countered, without countering himself, and as a special bonus he's occasionally completely invincible due to a laguz untranformation (aka a laguz runs out of meter right in front of him. For most units this is a huge pain in the ass, but Leo can't hit it anyway so he just fires at any of the other 3+ positions and enjoys not getting attacked while the laguz regenerates gauge).

Beastfoe is really nice for Leo since it allows him to blick one laguz every turn, without fail and without getting countered, and it's 100% safe to put him on the front lines to use it. But, you don't even need to use Beastfoe: he's still 2RKO on all Tigers and 3RKO on all cats, with a 18-19% listed crit. That means he's also about 33% ORKO on Tigers and 18-19% on cats, which isn't going to impress anyone, but is free, 100% safe, and better than a kick in the pants. Lord help the untransformed cats, who Leo is 100% on.

That's the point of the Leo story. Not that he is amazing, but that Zihark is actually so fragile in this chapter, that Leonardo is fogging up his rear view mirror.

He gets 2HKO'd at significantly higher hit rates, so while he may not die on you on enemy phase if you stick him at the left chokepoint in 3-6, you'll have to heal him basically every turn. Zihark gets 2HKO'd but there's a significantly higher chance that your healer won't have to actually heal him because he dodged the attack, which is obviously a good thing because this frees up my healer to do something else.

And of course the obvious advantage of not requiring beastfoe in the first place.

Also, tigers might actually OHKO him if he got HP or def screwed. He only has 28.6 HP/11.6 def at 20/1 before supports, and the tigers have 39 att, and a couple have 41, which is pretty frickin bad considering Leo is so awful in part 1 he's not even reaching 20/1 without a ton of favoritism.

Returning to Jill and Zihark: the first problem with Resolve is what gets left on the table. I can't send it to the GMs, so every possible use here can't happen because Zihark has it, and this includes hybrid strategies like giving it to Mia when Mordecai is not around, and Mord when he is. I don't think that I really need to get into how ridiculously hax that Mordecai is with Resolve, or how Mia turns invincible, or how any number of other units can go from not doubling to doubling... hell I can even make Soren good with it, since getting him under half health is as difficult as falling out of bed, and now he can double everything with high 30's mt and targetting RES, aka he ORKOs fucking everything, as long as I protect him.

But no matter how much better Zihark is than something retarded like Resolve + Soren, the fact of the matter is he's only really using it for 3-4 chapters compared to 9 with the GMs. Notice how even if Zihark is doing twice as much as his counterpart in the GMs would do when it comes to completing the game, he still loses because of the short time that he has it.

Of course, no one is suggesting that Resolve ISN'T favoritism. It's that it's not MORE favoritism than Jill requiring a robe PLUS shield.

And you don't even have to give him resolve. It's only suggested if you're dumb and throwing him into a group of enemies.

The second problem with Resolve is what Zihark does with it. This skill only activates at <50% health, and Zihark is 2HKO'ed basically by a ton of combinations, so those amongst us may notice that this skill is only up when Zihark is one hit from buying the farm (never mind the nightmare scenario when Zihark actually get injured by a rare something that 3HKOs him, and he's facing one-hit-from-death perhaps by something that will do more than 50% of his health, aka no Resolve bonus).

His chance to get hit basically becomes his chance to die. You can get his listed hit down to 0%, but it requires A Earth (very difficult to get this by 3-6, impossible without slowing down the army), and a thicket if he's bio-screwed. That's the only scenario where this is really an effective use of the skill. Even at something like 1% True is playing with fire, because the chance to die compounds itself over the course of a chapter, as you risk it repeatedly. Consider that a 1% chance to die in a single hit becomes a ~5% chance to die over a chapter that contains five such situations. And this isn't stock Zihark, here, where that figure might be acceptable: this is a requirement for even using Resolve in the first place. If you don't risk these scenarios, you are basically wasting the skill and getting nothing out of it, and this is one of the most hax and hotly desired skills in the game.

You make it like that Zihark will always be at half HP on the enemy phase, which is a ridiculous idea. Even people like Nolan and Aran don't want to be at half HP on enemy phase (you're obviously going to heal anyone taht gets hit, especially if it was a tiger hit). Which means Zihark's chances of dying from full HP with resolve equipped is a lot lower than what you claimed it is.

And the fact that certain enemies aren't going to put him at half HP just means you have to watch which laguz is coming up next. Since only like 1 guy can attack at a time it's very easy to see what's going to happen. It's a minor inconvenience but Zihark certainly shouldn't be dying on you because of it.

Oh, and it's useless in 3-13, where no thickets exist, no swamp slows anyone down, and everyone gets +15 HIT. Everyone on the other team, that is. I should probably count that chapter against Zihark, for basically not using the skill effectively at all. And even if he gives it to someone else in the DB to mitiagte it, who is even good enough to use it? Volug? You'd have to cap his SPD or something ridiculous like that, since he's still getting 3HKO'ed here by tigers.

The enemies get +15 hit, but Zihark when compared to 3-6 now goes from "might have an A Earth support though it's probably going to be a B without favoritism" to "he definitely will have A", so that already covers the 15 hit, plus he has more spd/lck, and the extra spd in particular gives him a slightly bigger avoid boost with resolve.

Consider a 20/13 Zihark (might be slightly high, but w/e). He has 30 spd/15 lck. With resolve and A Earth he has 150 avoid when the laguz will have 150-155 hit, which is very good when you consider that the laguz will first have to hit him from full HP down to half.

The third problem here is with consumables: we can ship those two items to the GMs, but they are locked on whoever uses them, meaning that nobody in the DB uses the items and I sit on them for the whole Part. The salient point here is that Jill with Draco/Robe is using them as early as 1-6 (a delay, but one that gets longer), and she's benefitting literally in every chapter that she's present in. This extends to Part 3, and even to Part 4, since she doesn't cap either HP or DEF for any significant amount of time. These items are doing more than just making her 3HKO'ed by more combinations in 3-6, it's also helping in 3-12 and 3-13, especially 3-13 where avoid-tanks are getting mauled but concrete defense is exactly as good as it was in 3-6.

The problem is that there are also other DB units who like those items. Nolan in particular enjoys them, and Aran would especially take the robe (he wouldn't mind the shield either, although he does cap it ridiculously fast anyway).

You pretend that Jill is the only person in the DB who wants those items, which is an obvious lie.

And even if I do ship it to the GMs instead of giving it to Jill, I only lose out on 1-6, 1-7, and 1-E, but now gain it for GM chapters, and since you always talk about how not shipping skills with Ilyana in 1-E means the DB use stuff for 4 chapters when the GMs use it for like 8 or whatever it is, this obviously makes an impact. Robe + shield means that basically two different units will be able to take an extra hit before dying (unless it's on Soren or a healer, where it doesn't do anything), which is an obvious advantage. On the other hand, Jill with both takes an extra hit before dying (goes from 2HKO'd by tigers and 3HKO'd by cats, to 3HKO'd by tigers and 4HKO'd by cats. The cats situation gets better as she levels, but that doesn't really matter much).

Two units taking an extra hit versus one unit taking an extra hit.

That looks pretty bad to me for Jill's case when you're trying to prove that shield + robe is less favoritism than resolve.

The overall point is that so much good shit gets left on the table with Zihark + Resolve, that I can't really see it as being equivalent to a couple of stat-boosters. I don't mean to downplay the impact of using two boosters, because it's considerable favoritism, but the issue is that Resolve is REALLY that good, and Zihark is really not doing anything substantial with it.

Is it, now? How many units actually want resolve in the GMs? Resolve boosts offense since now people like Titania and Haar are doubling, but it more than halves their durability (they're not always at 50% HP) and the avoid boost usually isn't enough to be reliable. Consider that a 20/18 Titania has 79 avoid before resolve, and 101 with, when enemies can easily have 130+ hit or more.

Mia is okay with it, but it does almost nothing for her offense (oh wow I get like 7 more crit), and she still won't face 0 hit rates against most enemies unless you also pair her with an earth support (at which point the earth support alone is enough for her durability), and then even WITH that the more accurate enemies like snipers and crossbow enemies have hit rates on her, and she is getting OHKO'd if she's got resolve activated. If she really was worried about her durability she'd just pick up an earth support, since resolve alone is just as risky as Zihark in 3-6, only she's potentially facing more enemies a turn than Zihark is because GM chapters are mostly open spaces with fewer chokepoints to abuse.

Mordy's really the only big competition for resolve since he can survive at half HP with no problems and now starts doubling everything.

By the way, a million pages ago someone mentioned that we don't know how long it takes to supprot people in 1-6. Well, from memory, I recall that Z and Nolan spending 10 turns next to each other isn't enough for a C by 1-7. There need to be more turns, and/or some shoving. It's possible to get to C by 1-7, but not without slowing you down or otherwise constraining the army, and it still requires the crazy bullshit of getting to B by 1-8 and then plowing A by the end of 1-E (aka, not happening without even more delaying tactics). Hell, it doesn't even fix his problem unless you also accompany this magic support with Resolve, since he's still getting 2HKO'ed at pretty scary hit rates (scary for someone who is 2HKO'ed).

A C by 1-7 is ridiculously easy, since 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 are pretty big and long chapters. Only 10 turns? Did you finish both parts in only 15 turns total or something?

Of course to get an A by 3-6 you'll need some stalling or stuff in the other part 1 chapters, which is bad, but remember that two units are benefiting by getting the support rank higher (Zihark + his partner), so it's not as bad as you think.

[Vykan12]

The fact of the matter is, she beats even some of the "core" GMs on offense. The ones that she doesn't, or the ones that eventually surpass her for a time, or have other aspects of utility that put them ahead, they are higher than she is on the tier list for that reason (or should be). The only unit that consistently smoking her on offense is Ike. Everyone else has an asterisk next to their name, or just fails.

The asterisk should be next to Mia’s name for winning slightly about half the time, then losing slightly more the other half (the gap between 1RKOing and 2RKOing is bigger than the gap between the crit/adept of a doubler and that of a non-doubler), and this is before taking her lacklustre 1-2 range into account.

Maybe it’s just me but forged hand axes break the game. 14 Mt, possibly boosted hit and crit is clearly > 6 Mt, or even the 12 she gets from a storm sword, and the user of the hand axe probably has a sizeable str lead on her in the first place.

Let’s take a crowned Gatrie vs a lv --/14/0 Mia (B Ike). Gatrie does 126% damage to a 3-8 warrior while Mia only does 49%. Against a halberdier, Gatrie does 112% damage to Mia’s 31%. He even does decent damage vs generals (81%) to Mia’s piddly 2 damage.

Okay, Mia could choose to use a 1 ranged sword, but now she does 0 damage to ranged threats while Gatrie kills most of the ones he faces.

Storm swords.

Uh what? Name me one storm sword you can acquire without some disarm strategy. I think Tanith or Sigrun brings one, but that’s in 3-11.

Tormod ties an unsupported Zihark for raw durability in 1-7, and then wins it in practice because he doesn't get countered. He maintains his 2-range advantage forever, and Zihark only gains in supports.

Why are you assuming Zihark can’t do the same?

--/5/0 Zihark (wind edge, B Volug): 24 atk, 24 AS, 88 avo

Base lvl Tormod (forged fire): 22 atk, 20 AS, 54 avo

Tormod does win raw attack when considering the def/res gap, but that’s more than compensated by the amount of enemies Tormod doesn’t double. There are some 1-8 bandits he can’t double (17-18 AS) and Tormod’s only beating them one round sooner at best. In 1-E, there are myrmidons, soldiers and archers with 17+ AS, and Tormod only wins against the stuff he borderline ORKOes such as certain fighters. Suffice to say, Zihark can match Tormod’s ranged performance with a wind edge, at which point his huge avo lead obviously allows him to win overall durability.

Speaking of avo, let’s see how big that discrepancy really is. Against a 1-E armor, Tormod faces 70 true hit while Zihark faces 15. The disparity is so huge that Zihark would be winning durability even if he always attacked at 1 range.

Your Nolan comparision fails for giving him a support he doesn't necessarily want, no HP/DEF boosts whatsoever, and sticking him at 20/1 (not to mention that he levels up quickly anyway once this chapter gets going).

@bolded part: You must’ve not read when I said Nolan has to both use Tarvos and a seraph robe to be 3HKOed by tigers, though the 41 atk ones would still 2HKO him. Last time I checked, seraph robes boost hp.

Anyway, if Nolan took a thunder support, a dracoshield and a seraph robe, all while using the tarvos, he’d still be getting 3HKOed by those 39 atk tigers. Obviously he’s not getting all 3 of those things, so even giving him extra levels won’t change the scenario into a 4HKO.

What. Did you ignore my rant on lower-levelled units and how much faster they level up relative to higher-levle units in HM? Of course you did.

Of course I didn’t. Here’s a snipet from that post:

The thing about low-level units is that they don't stay X levels behind at all times even if they start that way. This is especially apparent in Hard Mode, because of the EXP penalty (it's a flat penalty, not a proportional one, which is a big deal). I wish that Dragontamer posted here on SF -- since he's a math nut and actually made a proof with a formula to calcuate this during a Nephenee vs. Oscar debate -- but such is life, I will demonstrate it as best as I can.

The problem is that it’s not addressing the specific case of Zihark vs other DBs. He’s the prime candidate for paragon in part 1 (the only others are Micaiah and Sothe really) which cuts into whatever faster levelling Nolan has. Then part 3+4 exp gain is so high that Zihark himself is basically acting as an under-leveled unit, so he’s not really hitting any exp ceiling that lets Nolan catch up rapidly.

Also, my personal experience about Nolan reaching 18/0/0 at 1-E isn’t exactly unfounded; I don’t mean to appeal to confirmation bias, but still:

I have to completely agree with you on this; I got Nolan and Jill to 18/0 without Jarod abuse and the EXP cut in general really hurts the DB. As much as I think Nolan rocks, he's nothing special in part 1 (he feels like a generic with a face plastered on) because his damage output and durability, despite being better than the rest of the DB, is still not good. Basically he joins in 1-1 and gets worse from there.

Those levels sound about the same as what Paperblade got when he did his HM max BEXP playthrough.

How many people here agree that 20/1 for Nolan is too low in 3-6? I’m curious.

What the fuck. Vika is not in Part 3, nor is Zihark going to have B Volug in any of their shared chapters, except 1-E. She's stomping him for durability in 1-7, and she can transform on turn 2 in 1-8 owing to the Bandit trick.

You brought up her name in the list of people who are better than Zihark at durability at some point, so I showed that was false. She can’t be stomping him in that department ever since it can easily be shown that tons of avo > 7 hp (refer to the Tormod vs Zihark example). There isn’t even olivi grass available in 1-7, meaning she’ll be reverted for about half that chapter.

So how's Zihark doing in 3-13? Oh, right, even less useful than he was in 3-6.

What’s this got to do with Nolan? If we’re not killing Ike, whatever you do in this chapter serves as self-improvement, so there’s not really any way for Nolan to be more useful. Both can hold a chokepoint unarmed to the same effect. Even if Nolan can safely use a weapon, that just allows him to gain more exp than tempest blade!Zihark, which only has an impact on his part 4 chapters. I suppose bowgun!Nolan also does better against hawks, but those will never be a threat so long as you use NPCs whenever they approach (the ballista will kill them). Oh wait, hawks have 39 hp/12 def/20 As, so Zihark can kill them just as well if he has 32+ Mt. At --/10/0, he can accomplish that with a steel blade.

Yeah I’m really not seeing how Nolan’s more useful here.

I've got a better idea: point out what unit is roflstomping Mia like Tauroneo, Nailah, and BK do to Zihark in Part 1 (and 3-6).

The BK and Nailah only show up for the second half of Zihark’s part 1 chapters, roughly the same amount of time I’m asserting that the “core” GMs can double and thus outperform Mia rather badly (see Gatrie example).

If that’s not enough for you, there’s also ragnell Ike, third tier Haar, Reyson, the hawks, and even resolve Mordy who could be considered as “roflstomping” her.

And while you're at it, tell me the name of the Part 3 chapter where Mia's durability is so awful, that she's getting shown up by Rolf.

3-P should do. Mia has 34 hp/13 def to Rolf’s 32 hp/13 def, but then Rolf can attack at range whereas no such option exists for Mia yet. I could also show Kyza’s more durable than Mia before her Ike support is fully developed if you want.

And you also have to abuse him to A Earth by 3-6

Until SF has some concrete data on supports, I cannot really counter this with numbers. However, if Nolan is somehow getting above 20/1 for 3-6, you’ll have plenty more turns to work with to get this support going. Take 1-7 for instance. The last prisoner takes a good 4 turns to escape even if you ferry him with your units, so Volug can shove Zihark while he moves back adjacent to him during that time. Such a thing can’t really be constituted as abuse since you don’t really have any superior options if you want the BEXP from that prisoner. A similar thing occurs in 1-8 if both units try to traverse the swamps.

Oh, and wouldn’t other units need to support abuse a little to prepare for 3-6? Volug x Jill takes as much time as Nolan x Zihark if you’re using her. In this case, it seems like a worthy trade-off.

Zihark could vanish into the aether and I'd still be able to finish 3-12.

Mia could vanish into a toilet and I’d still be able to beat the game.

Yes, your point about Zihark was entirely irrelevant. Thank you for agreeing with me.

How is that addressing what I wrote? The logic that Zihark isn’t ‘needed’ in this chapter can be used against any GM, including Mia, so I don’t see the relevance. No character is needed in this game to do anything beyond seizing and whatnot, so these necessity arguments really need to stop.

I wonder what magical world has 4/11 = 50%.

Those were just examples, I can give more if you wish (almost any GM chapter works). In 3-10, you want to beat the CRKs to the enemies for countless reasons (more BEXP, more CEXP, better keeping Elincia alive, etc), so the best course of action is to have Titania/Haar/Hawks rushing all the enemies with the help of Reyson. Mia’s contribution here is minimal.

3-11 is a level that favors fliers, not to mention there are a lot of 1-2 range threats (22/54 or ~41% of all enemies) so Mia’s left with little to do here either unless a flier ferries her around.

Regardless, Mia isn't getting 2HKO'ed

Actually she is by certain enemies. For instance, a 3-P warrior does ~68% damage per hit to her. Generals also consistently 2HKO her throughout part 3.

and she's certainly doing more than pot-shotting with a Storm Sword over a wall.

I said Zihark was using a tempest blade in 3-13, which actually allows him to 1RKO cats normally and 3HKO tigers.

In 3-3 she's part of the army that's clearing enemies to get to items (Haar cannot do it alone)

What items are you referring to? Haar can reach every one of them within 15 turns, and someone like Mist/Rhys can pick up scrap like the blossom scroll.

Starting 4 levels behind the other GMs has the advantage of giving her more CEXP. She closes the gap rather swiftly. Mia doesn't have trouble taking kills unless you're sandbagging her, since 7MV and footsoldier mobility is not slow. She loses to fliers, and sometimes she loses to Paladins.

Like I said earlier, that weak 1-2 range problem really hurts her in the long run. I just counted 44% of the ranged enemies in 3-5 have ranged weapons up to turn 6 reinforcements. I’m pretty sure most part 3 chapters would have ranged enemies in the low-mid 40% range, which is enough to have her lose offence to strong people who can’t even double yet, no less when they do gain that ability.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Vykan12

[soundecho]

Except that there aren't any characters that want Water over their other support. Nolan, Zihark, Jill and Volug would be hard to argue for, Sothe already has A Micaiah and the extra defense isn't worth restarting a support, Micaiah doesn't double thus wouldn't make much use with 1 extra attack, Laura doesn't attack and will still gain massive damage when attacked, Aran is a possibility for 1 extra defence though never doubling without bexp makes the +2 attack worth less on Aran than Edward. Meg and Fiona would love Water, but since this entire arguement is based around using two worthless characters those two are out.

The only character that may want to trade based on your arguement is Aran and even he wants some extra hit at the beginning since he misses a lot before his skill kicks in.

Except Nolan, Zihark, Jill and Volug aren't always in play. Anyway if you're gonna field Leo you might as well drop someone, only way for the DB to be good is to low man and in this case this frees up someone's support slot as Nolan would enjoy a water support.

Aran has 36 attack at 20/1 with max mt forged steel lance. He doesn't 2HKO the level 17 cats without Leo's support. Leo's attack support also makes Aran go from a 4HKO on tigers to a 3HKO so it does improve his offense a lot. He doesn't even need hit from Eddie in the early stages, just forge some hit onto an iron lance.

Nolan with a Leo def support has higher chances of being 3HKOed by a 41 might tiger.At level 20/3 with a dracoshield, he avoids the 2HKO.

Also Jill would appreciate a support. It's up to 8+ damage on tigers when using the brave axe or 4 damage when vsing cats.

Volug often falls short of a ORKO is 1-E and such and would gladly take the benefit of a water support.

[charmander6000]

But we're back to the problem again, Nolan, Zihark Volug and Jill's primary support is not Leonardo. While it's possible that a character that good is not in use you can't assume that is the case. I agree that Aran could take Leonardo as a primary support over Laura, but supporting Edward or Aran does not make Leonardo any better as +8 avoid won't help Leo's terrible avoid.

Edited June 23, 2009 by charmander6000

[dondon151]

This isn't really about Leo helping himself, though taking the example of a 14/1 Leo, with a Seraph Robe and +1 or +2 defense from supports, he's guaranteed to survive a round of combat every time on 3-6.

Leo not being a primary supporter as an argument for not supporting the core DB members is rather dumb. It's like saying Ike>Ulki because Ike is higher than Ulki on the tier list. Leo is a strong secondary contender for supports from pretty much any of them.

[Zkirsche]

It's not dumb because trying to build supports is very difficult with Leo's frail durability.

Ulki, however, can easily build supports due to great movement, great durabiltiy and great offence.

Trying to build a support between Zihark are Leo is harder than Building a support between Zihark and Nolan/Volug/Jill.

[grandjackal]

It's not dumb because trying to build supports is very difficult with Leo's frail durability.

Trying to build a support between Zihark are Leo is harder than Building a support between Zihark and Nolan/Volug/Jill.

Not hard with Nolan.

Same move, Nolan's a tank for Leo to shoot over, Nolan would appreciate Water boosts...

[dondon151]

Unlike in the GBA FEs, you're not required to stand adjacent to characters to build support levels, so Leo can build a support with Nolan long before anyone else. It's a bit tougher for Volug and Jill.

Let's not forget that Leo doesn't even need to be a detriment to hand out support bonuses past 1-7.

[Zkirsche]

Unlike in the GBA FEs, you're not required to stand adjacent to characters to build support levels, so Leo can build a support with Nolan long before anyone else. It's a bit tougher for Volug and Jill.

Let's not forget that Leo doesn't even need to be a detriment to hand out support bonuses past 1-7.

I believe that it quickens the support if you do.

[Interceptor]

This exceedingly long post contains replies to smash, dondon, and that green dude. Vykan lost the coin toss and I am out of bandwidth.

You're going to have to do more to prove that Zihark's part 1 sucks than just "Oh he's worse than our three guys who are fucking jesus tier to begin with", because every single fucking character in part 1 is getting shitstomped by those 3, and if being crushed by them means you are useless, then I guess the whole fucking Brigade in all of part 1 is fucking useless and we should never take part 1 utility into account again when determining the value of a character, hm? Hai Volug, meet low tier.

Don't you ever get tired of replying to me, and being wrong? BK/Nailah/etc don't make Zihark and the others useless, it just puts their performance in the proper perspective -- they are men amongst gods. At least one of these haxathon units are in every one of his chapters, except for 1-7.

also, Let's use your line of thinking for a second, Ike shitstomps Mia, Shinon shitstomps Mia, Reyson and Ranulf do so pretty badly as well....Yeah. I don't care where the hell Zihark goes on the list, but please have better reasoning than "omg he's worse than the units who fucking trivialize part 1, he sux"

I am really getting irritated at how people in this thread keep exaggerating points. The disparity between say, Ranulf and Mia is not even on the same planet as Tauroneo vs. Zihark. If you can't counter something unless you hyperbolize it to its ultimate absurdity, consider that maybe your argument sucked to begin with.

I'm done replying seriously to you. Three strikes, you're out.

One of them requires you to prolong the chapter to get, and IIRC the other one is difficult to get as well, but whatever the case, Mia can't just replace Wind Edges with Storm Swords.

The one in 3-2 is easy enough to get, and it has 20 uses. Mia's 1-2 range is admittedly not spectacular, but having a Storm or two available does tend to mitigate it somewhat, this was my only point. I don't go into too much detail with Vykan anymore because he takes everything out of context.

Vykan and I can both cite PE for Aran being 17/1, and personally I think 17/1 is still generous. Average units like Jill and Nolan are having trouble reaching 20/1; I don't see how below average units like Aran who start at a lower level are even coming close.

Well, I don't really care, to be perfectly honest. Vykan rushes the chapters, and apparently you are also guilty of this. I think Aran is a shitty unit in HM, but if I am using a unit I am using them seriously, which means I give Aran a bunch of killing blows, with the nakedly straightforward purpose of training him.

Normally I'd expect smash to come to the defense of Aran in this situation, but he's apparently afraid that he might prove Aran sucks in Part 3, aka he'll be about as useful to this argument as a tit on a bull, so therefore I have to argue this myself. Maybe I'll get into specific details later, but I don't even care enough about it, so don't be surprised if I just drop the subject entirely.

Losing by 4 levels in the beginning means that you'll still be losing by 2-3 levels later on, not that you'll be suddenly tied with other units.

I don't think that you have a real appreciation for how much of a disparity there really is EXP gain for different-level units in Hard Mode. You seriously run headlong into a brick wall once you start out-levelling your targets. I cannot emphasize this enough. The gap closes pretty dramatically. Yes, yes, I understand that they will never be exactly equal unless given unequal kills, but you can chop the difference in half every X chapters or some nonsense. Like I said, DT is the go-to guy for this, he actually figured out a formula for it. I am not a math whiz, I am definitely a B+ student when it comes to anything more complicated than simply probability. C'est la vie. Refer to my previous example.

he only needs to be ~20/7 to double the 22 AS cats

smash, why the double standards? You have FEPlanet's average stats bookmarked for whenever someone asserts a stat distribution that is borderline, but you ignore it for Zihark. If Zihark gets to level 20/7 -- which is ridiculous, just to put this out there, even considering Paragon in three chapters -- his chance to have less than 26 SPD is 35%. This is already problematic, since if he only gets to 20/6 there's a 66% chance of this happening. Sure, he'll level up during 3-6 if he's taking kills, but he has to deal with failure to double until then. It's a realistic problem that he faces.

Zihark's chance to ORKO cats depends, then, not only on his chance to double, but on crits or skill activations.

He's 70% ORKO on cats with a KE. If this seems awesome, consider that there's a >90% chance that he takes a counter, and a wounded cat is still there 30% of the time. Oops. Better hope that he didn't get hit, and that there isn't another laguz in range for when Z kills this cat on Enemy Phase, otherwise it's heal/nuke/trade shenanigans.

With a critforge, he's about 72% ORKO, with a chance of around <70% for taking a counter (better). But, naturally, this means he's still using Adept, which is a sizable negative for him. Without Adept, he's 50/50 (ruh-roh). Without doubling, his chance to ORKO with a KE drops to "requires simultaneous 12% Adept/crit miracle", and a forge is 30%, and he's either 4RKO or 3RKO without skill/crit activations.

What is he using on tigers? Do I need to drag every detail out of you like it was pulling teeth? Nothing is a clean 2RKO except for the Brave Sword, which requires up to 7 uses just for one tiger. Forge is a 5HKO, and KE is something silly like a 9HKO. In many cases he ends up taking two attacks from a tiger just to kill it, something that is once again made worse unless you are favoring him with Adept.

As for the rest, I once again have to repeat that Zihark having better offense than other people in the army is only relevant to the extent that he's able to actually leverage it. He is gated by his durability. You have to make special configurations for him, which reduces your flexibility. In that example that you gave, you're actually creating a situation where a 3HKO'ed unit that would normally be safe might actually have two enemy facings, so you've effectively lowered their durability to that of Zihark's just to mitigate HIS problem. Or putting him in thickets will 1) deny the thicket to someone else, and 2) not prevent him from getting 2HKO'ed. You've just improved his chances of dodging on the first hit (if you're chancing the second hit, you're chancing death).

I'd call Zihark a glass cannon, but in 3-6 he's more of a glass handgun: even with access to special weapons like forges/brave/KE he's still depending on magic for his kills. This reliance on the RNG is far and away the worst thing about Zihark here, because it applies to both his offense AND his defense. People like Nolan, Aran, or especially Volug are much more predictable and reliable when it comes to their performance, which leads to them being more widely useful.

You talk about me sandbagging Zihark, but I wish that I could ACTUALLY sandbag him, aka seal his critical rate without having to lolbronze, because that would make it a lot easier to use him in this chapter. I could make strategies that had a horizon of effectiveness that were longer than one fucking attack in the future (yay, everything changes depending on whether Z dodged/killed), and I wouldn't have to make special enemy funnels for him or have him hog defensive tiles, or put a skill like Resolve to mediocre effect.

That would be nice even if he was still 2HKO'ed, because 2HKO'ed at fairly respectable hit rates is very dealable once you remove the threat of clearing space unintentionally. Suppose that was an 18mt sword that negated crits. Z would be a lot better, ne?

In 3-13 there's no swamp to slow the laguz down, but you can still use Zihark easily without him dying on you. [...] Again, Zihark makes himself useful because of his offense.

I don't generally play 3-13 this way, so I can't speak to the effectiveness of the strategy. I will say, though, that nothing but killing hawks is actually anything but self-serving. Not even any items to be garnered, here.

He gets 2HKO'd at significantly higher hit rates, so while he may not die on you on enemy phase if you stick him at the left chokepoint in 3-6, you'll have to heal him basically every turn. Zihark gets 2HKO'd but there's a significantly higher chance that your healer won't have to actually heal him because he dodged the attack, which is obviously a good thing because this frees up my healer to do something else. [...] And of course the obvious advantage of not requiring beastfoe in the first place.

smash, you clearly did not comprehend my post at all, even if you read it, since I clearly pointed out that:

1) Leo stops taking hits entirely once a laguz untransforms in front of him. You probably didn't even consider this because all of your other units will kill the laguz first. Which is why I pointed it out: it's uncommon. Leo cannot even hit this mob with his PRF bow, so he's better off just leaving it there and firing over its head, aka this peon laguz has now been drafted into the Dawn Brigade as a temporary wall. Healers required while this phenomenon continues: zero.

2) Leo does not require Beastfoe. I said it OUTRIGHT, in bold, and then proceeded to illustrate exactly what his offense without Beastfoe was. He's 2RKO'ing Tigers without getting countered, which is immediately better than what Zihark is capable of in that respect, particularly since he maintains a modest chance to ORKO on both cats and tigers because of his Sniper crit. This crit is, naturally, 100% safe since it only happens on Player Phase and is counter-free.

WRT him getting OHKO'ed by tigers if he gets stat-screwed, that's a fair point, but it's not something that prevents the combination from working, it just means that I'll have to reach into the bag of tricks and give him negative utility with a stat booster or a favored position in a thicket or a shotgun A-rank support with Laura so that he gets +2 DEF from himself. Sometimes it could be not even required, for example if he encounters a cat and keeps it in front of him for the entire chapter.

Other points that need to be reiterated: he's murder on untransformed cats regardless of Beastfoe (cats running out of gauge? I don't beleive it's possible!), and he can happily give up his Player Phase attack forever to just pop Concoctions if a healer is not readily availible.

Of course, no one is suggesting that Resolve ISN'T favoritism. It's that it's not MORE favoritism than Jill requiring a robe PLUS shield.

Please don't refute things that I never accused you of. I gave you that lecture on favoritism for one reason and one reason only, which is that your grasp of it is pretty shaky in my estimation, going by your past postings. You have a tendency to say "X is favoritism" and never actually going into the give-and-take of opportunity cost. I never said, suggested, implied, or asserted through proxy that someone said that Resolve wasn't favoritism.

I disagree with your conclusion that giving Resolve to Zihark is not more harmful than a Robe/Draco on Jill. See below. And above.

And you don't even have to give him resolve. It's only suggested if you're dumb and throwing him into a group of enemies.

I won't give him Resolve, because it makes no sense for me to do so. It's easily a less efficient use of the skill.

You make it like that Zihark will always be at half HP on the enemy phase, which is a ridiculous idea. Even people like Nolan and Aran don't want to be at half HP on enemy phase (you're obviously going to heal anyone taht gets hit, especially if it was a tiger hit). Which means Zihark's chances of dying from full HP with resolve equipped is a lot lower than what you claimed it is.

Apparently you never actually understood what I said, so I will say it again.

Resolve only activates under 50% health. If Zihark is not doing something with it when under 50% health, or he never goes under 50% health, he is not actually making any use of Resolve at all. The advantage it offers him becomes entirely theoretical. Once again: if Zihark's base dodge and/or healers keep him from getting underneath this threshold, you are denying Resolve to the GMs (guaranteed can use it better than Zihark, for longer), or even another DB unit, and getting next to nothing out of it.

Third time, in a new paragraph: Zihark can't leverage Resolve without somehow chancing his own death. I'll post this a fourth time if you respond to this post without clearly indicating that you understand this extremely simple argument.

And the fact that certain enemies aren't going to put him at half HP just means you have to watch which laguz is coming up next. Since only like 1 guy can attack at a time it's very easy to see what's going to happen. It's a minor inconvenience but Zihark certainly shouldn't be dying on you because of it.

This a fairly moot point since even using Resolve at all means that you're dancing with the Reaper, but regardless it's still something that makes you to alter your strategy because a weakness of Zihark forced your hand.

The enemies get +15 hit, but Zihark when compared to 3-6 now goes from "might have an A Earth support though it's probably going to be a B without favoritism" to "he definitely will have A", so that already covers the 15 hit, plus he has more spd/lck, and the extra spd in particular gives him a slightly bigger avoid boost with resolve.

Zihark with a B in 3-6 is already insufficient, so saying that he's essentially at a B again in 3-13 is just confirming an argument that I already made. I actually say this all the time, so I'm happy that it's penetrated your subconscious finally.

Consider a 20/13 Zihark (might be slightly high, but w/e). He has 30 spd/15 lck. With resolve and A Earth he has 150 avoid when the laguz will have 150-155 hit, which is very good when you consider that the laguz will first have to hit him from full HP down to half.

Once again: his chance to get hit when Resolve is up is also his chance to die. You are completely at the mercy of biorhythm even if Zihark is at this inflated level, and this time there are no thickets to hide in. Every time you risk a hit with Resolve, you risk a restart. Every time you fail to use Resolve for this purpose, you are under-utilitizing the skill.

The problem is that there are also other DB units who like those items. Nolan in particular enjoys them, and Aran would especially take the robe (he wouldn't mind the shield either, although he does cap it ridiculously fast anyway).

It's not much of a problem since the constraints of training prevent you from raising too many people in the first place. There are two robes and a Draco, which basically let you take 2-3 people plus Volug, depending on who the people are. Naturally you can still use more people, since Nolan getting 2HKO'ed is a lot less dangerous than Zihark getting 2HKO'ed, as Nolan is far, far, far less likely to clear space while still contributing to offense.

You pretend that Jill is the only person in the DB who wants those items, which is an obvious lie.

No, I don't pretend any such thing. Please don't accuse me of being the person that you want to debate, rather than the person that you are actually debating. Shadow Interceptor does not exist, never has, and never will. I went out of my way to describe how opportunity cost factors into resource distribution and Jill is absolutely not an exception to this rule.

Obvious lie, tch. More like an obvious misrepresentation of my argument, on your part.

And even if I do ship it to the GMs instead of giving it to Jill, [...] Two units taking an extra hit versus one unit taking an extra hit. [...] That looks pretty bad to me for Jill's case when you're trying to prove that shield + robe is less favoritism than resolve.

The DB doesn't use it for 4 chapters compared to the GM's 9, like Resolve. Why is this? It's because the stat-ups are not actually transferrable. If you're using them on Jill, you hit her with them in 1-6-1. If you send them to the GMs, nobody uses them until 3-2. That means Jill is using the stat-ups for 1-6-1, 1-6-2, 1-7, 1-E, 3-6, 3-12, and 3-13. That's actually about 6-7 chapters compared to the GM's 9, which you will immediately notice is still weighted in favor of the GMs, but is much better than the 2-3 chapters that Zihark in useful Resolve performance. It's worth noting that Jill's durability is one of her real problems in early Part 1, and these two items really go a long way to making her more useful there (may even result in a higher level going into 3-6).

I'd like to see your specific arugment of which two GM units are taking an "extra hit", why this is superior to Jill's usage, and then why this disparity is greater than the Resolve one.

Do you follow the logic? I am not contesting that there isn't some situation or multiple situations where the GMs would benefit more than Jill, but I'd wager that the difference between Jill v. GMs is less than that of Zihark v. GMs.

Is it, now? How many units actually want resolve in the GMs? Resolve boosts offense since now people like Titania and Haar are doubling, but it more than halves their durability (they're not always at 50% HP) and the avoid boost usually isn't enough to be reliable. Consider that a 20/18 Titania has 79 avoid before resolve, and 101 with, when enemies can easily have 130+ hit or more.

What's wrong with my Soren example? You have to protect him anyway, it's easy to get him under half, and now his Player Phase offense is as good as Shinon's. Better, even, he can get clean kills on Generals and shit. It's a largely silly use of the skill, but Soren gets to do it for 9 chapters running compared to the 2-3 dubious uses that Zihark has for it in Part 3. That means that Zihark has to be doing 2-3 times as much as Soren just to tie game, and he's clearly not even close to doing that.

Anyway, someone like Haar can still use it. Just because Resolve is a trade-off doesn't mean that he wants nothing to do with it, especially seeing as how someone like him can manipulate his HP with Herbs/Vulneraries, and takes more than one hit to die under 50% from almost anyone. Haar has durabiltiy to spare, after all, but his offensive levers are limited.

Mia's use of Resolve is admittedly trickier and more depending on situational usefulness, but enemies look at a Mia OH from a KO, and attack her even if it's 0 listed, which is free damage.

Ranulf is another one: he's as dodgy as Mia, but with like a 20 HP and double concrete durability lead, meaning he's a ground-Haar. You can make Kyza sucks a lot less with Resolve, since he can double now (just fix his mt and/or DEF). Mordecai is the most obviously useful and easy to apply the strategy to, possibly the best, but that doesn't mean he's the only one in serious competition. I can throw it on Nephenee, too. She's in more danger than Mia, but has Wrath and can do a similar HP manipulation as Haar is doing (without the durability).

I was going to suggest Rhys, but wow holy shit he's so awful that it wouldn't help. Jesus, IS.

Anyway, many of those strategies are entirely dubious, but remember that we're leveraging 9 chapters against 2-3. That's a big hill to climb, I'm afraid. I can get away with some pretty retarded stuff and still turn out better than Zihark is doing.

A C by 1-7 is ridiculously easy, since 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 are pretty big and long chapters. Only 10 turns? Did you finish both parts in only 15 turns total or something?

I didn't say it was hard, I said it slowed you down. There is a difference between those two things. I try to use precise words when I am making a point, so it is annoying to me when people like yourself bust out your Hyperbole Thesaurus and counter something that was never argued in the first place.

I don't have a personal problem with getting A Earth by 3-6 -- recall that I like making Mist into an offensive powerhouse just for my own entertainment -- I just think it causes an unresolvable philosophical conflict in tier lists when you allow burning turns in chapters or otherwise intentionally going over limits. Where does it end? If I can just sit at the end of a chapter and have a bunch of people shoving each other around so that people build support level one per chapter, why can't I boss abuse? Why can't I intentionally gum enemy units to death? It's not like there aren't already enough variables to consider, here, that you need to add foot-dragging to it.

Of course to get an A by 3-6 you'll need some stalling or stuff in the other part 1 chapters, which is bad, but remember that two units are benefiting by getting the support rank higher (Zihark + his partner), so it's not as bad as you think.

I've got a dirty little secret for you: Zihark's partner might not even give a shit. Nolan will take Earth, but something with +DEF makes his life a lot easier. He can, for example, get to A Thunder with Aran by 3-6, which is +30 avoid but also +2 DEF/RES, something he can't get from Z.

[Mekkah]

Don't you ever get tired of replying to me, and being wrong? BK/Nailah/etc don't make Zihark and the others useless, it just puts their performance in the proper perspective -- they are men amongst gods. At least one of these haxathon units are in every one of his chapters, except for 1-7.

What I'm not seeing is how Zihark is in a world of gods but the GMs aren't. Counting those gods according to your list:

1-6 has Tauroneo.

1-7 has none.

1-8 has Nailah, but she's also on a different island than Zihark.

1-E has Nailah and the Dark Armored Man

Now, you usually counter any "DB is an army of weak while GM is an army of strong"-ish argument with "GMs have doubling issues and in HM they're not so much stronger if at all", or something like "all the strong people in the GMs have an asterisk to them". However, note that Zihark is still only competing with either only zero, a half, and one time two Gods in a chapter.

Meanwhile, looking at Mia:

Every single one of her chapters has Ike.

All but two have Haar (and I believe you admitted that she's not that slick on 3-P and 3-1 either way)

Six of them have the hawk duo, and I'm pretty sure one could argue them be "Gods" with an Energy Drop and/or Tear.

Seven of them have a crowned Gatrie, or if not him, someone else got crowned.

Seven of them have Reyson.

It seems to me that Mia's chapters have a higher god density than Zihark's.

Note that I am not looking to "curbstomp" anyone, I am genuinely looking for clarification.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Mekkah

[Colonel M]

Blahblahblah

I am really getting irritated at how people in this thread keep exaggerating points. The disparity between say, Ranulf and Mia is not even on the same planet as Tauroneo vs. Zihark. If you can't counter something unless you hyperbolize it to its ultimate absurdity, consider that maybe your argument sucked to begin with.

Difference is Taur exists in one (okay, two) chapters. Zihark, though he is inferior to that of Taur in ways, exists much longer than that. But, Ranulf exists for about as long as Mia (there's a small difference), but it is slightly the same:

Ranulf - 55 HP | 28 Str | 32 Skl | 30 Spd | 23 Luck | 26 Def | 20 Res

Strike: 38 Atk, 30 AS, 16 Crit, 98 Avoid, 55 HP, 13 Def

Mia (C Ike) - 38 HP | 19 Str | 29 Skl | 30 Spd | 20 Luck | 15 Def | 9 Res

Forged Steel: 34 Atk, 30 AS, 39 Crit, 110 Avoid, 38 HP, 15 Def

Keep in mind this is a Level 12 Mia, which is hard as hell to argue her being this high. I'd say that Ranulf is close to curbstomping her but has the usual flaws such as "lolCat", though he has much better durability to speak of. Here, Ranulf is not reliant on Biorhythm as much as Mia. Like Mekkah, I'd like a slight clarification on curbstomping myself.

As for sending Resolve over, you have to remember that Ilyana is limited on the stuff she can carry over. IIRC, she can't ship over a Resolve by slapping it on her, and then you have a limited amount of item slots. Since we're usually sending items that can be sold, I dunno why the DB keeping it is that much of a major issue. I mean, Micaiah here can make use of it from a distance since Sacrifice makes it easy to activate and has the possibility of doubling Tigers at least (those that sit on the 17 end are doubled by a 20/1 Micaiah under Resolve circumstances) and has a 65% chance of doubling all of them. She's being protected anyway, so her using it isn't even that great of a sacrifice... unless you want to argue that too.

Either way you look at it, seems to me that it's fanboyism drooling all over the place. I'm simply playing Devil's advocate over here. I'd probably just get ignored by Interceptor though since I've probably tripped under the 3 strike policy, but w/e. At this rate it's a circular pattern.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Colonel M

[Interceptor]

Note that I am not looking to "curbstomp" anyone, I am genuinely looking for clarification.

Boy, that's a refreshing change of pace.

What I'm not seeing is how Zihark is in a world of gods but the GMs aren't.[...]

The gods in the DB chapters are basically unkillable, to the point where they don't even have to heal themsevles, ever, in addition to having a 100% ORKO chance on anything that they actually hit. There is nobody in the GMs that has this level of ridiculous performance. Nobody, not even Ike, not even Haar. This is not to say that there are not a lot of units that are better than Mia: certainly there are several. Hopefully my point is clearer.

Regarding other things you brought up:

- Raisin is not a combatant. I'm drawing the line, here. His hax is almost entirely through other hax units.

- Nailah has 9MV and plows through reeds like they weren't there. I guarantee you that she can go anywhere she wants.

It seems to me that Mia's chapters have a higher god density than Zihark's.

My suggestion is that you take a closer look at the difference in performance. The gods of the GMs all have mortal weaknesses, even if such things do not keep them from being highly regarded in general.

[Interceptor]

Apologies if this is a double-post, but my rants are long enough for multiple posts anyway. :P

Difference is Taur exists in one (okay, two) chapters. Zihark, though he is inferior to that of Taur in ways, exists much longer than that. But, Ranulf exists for about as long as Mia (there's a small difference), but it is slightly the same:

Your comparison only has C Ike after four chapters together, which is ridiculous. Ranulf has Mia beat on concrete durability, but loses avoid, massively loses crit, and he's a cat. His mt lead exists, but iirc it doesn't make a difference on many targets unless you Energy Drop him. Even smash, who hates Mia, would agree that they are pretty close together overall.

As for sending Resolve over, you have to remember that Ilyana is limited on the stuff she can carry over.

Please come up with a realistic configuration of things to ship over that will fill her 7 inventory slots and prevent Resolve from going over. Recall that you can Seal her, which puts her capacity up high enough to bank a 15-cap skill on her for the transfer.

I dunno why the DB keeping it is that much of a major issue. I mean, Micaiah here can make use of it from a distance since Sacrifice makes it easy to activate and has the possibility of doubling Tigers at least (those that sit on the 17 end are doubled by a 20/1 Micaiah under Resolve circumstances) and has a 65% chance of doubling all of them. She's being protected anyway, so her using it isn't even that great of a sacrifice... unless you want to argue that too.

She can use Wrath, which the GMs don't want. I don't deny that she's decent with Resolve, but she loses the ability to use it effectively in 3-13, and even if you count that chapter we're still looking at 3-4 vs. 9, here. Bridge too far.

Either way you look at it, seems to me that it's fanboyism drooling all over the place. I'm simply playing Devil's advocate over here.

You're half right: devil's advocate. My arguments for Mia are based in reality. I resent being called a fanboy after spending so much effort arguing up Boyd on this tier list, who is a character that I hate with the fury of an angry god.

[Mekkah]

I'll give you that Ike's chapters are more atheist than Nailah when it comes to performance peaks. However, the density of those that are near-godly is simply so much higher than those that are godly. Again, we have an average of about one god in each of Zihark's part 1 chapters, versus 2-4 semi-gods in each of Mia's. And if we go further down the line, for people who aren't godly but sure as hell worth a dime, we have Nephenee, Ranulf, Shinon, Titania...

For the DB, we're looking at who? Volug. The LEA, except their wowness is greatly reduced in some chapters (gauge issues, isolation in 1-8, and vykan made an adequate Zihark vs Tormod comparison earlier). Nolan is quite clearly worse than Zihark in part 1, and iirc everyone else is at his mercy.

- Raisin is not a combatant. I'm drawing the line, here. His hax is almost entirely through other hax units.

That doesn't erase the fact that his hax exists though. The way I see it, herons increase the gap in performance between your best x units and the next best, where x is the amount they can vigor at that point. The larger amount of adequate users of Canto in Mia's chapters is only further hurting her in this case. Whether you give the credit of Reyson's hax to Titania/Ike/Haar/WhoeverHeVigors or to Reyson, the fact remains that he's doing it. Meanwhile, Zihark only really shares 1-E with Rafiel, and he is a near top candidate for being vigored regardless...maybe not top4, but closer than Mia.

[Colonel M]

Your comparison only has C Ike after four chapters together, which is ridiculous. Ranulf has Mia beat on concrete durability, but loses avoid, massively loses crit, and he's a cat. His mt lead exists, but iirc it doesn't make a difference on many targets unless you Energy Drop him. Even smash, who hates Mia, would agree that they are pretty close together overall.

The minor issue is two of those chapters is a "clear as quickly as possible" and the third is at least a rout. But, going back on Zihark, I dunno if A seems that less realistic on 3-6. No, I'm not trying to cause major disputes on this over again (seriously, my head spins everytime I come here).

You're slightly right on the Mt lead not making a total difference, but it does make a slight difference. Here, the Halberdiers have 38 HP / 19 Def. All of these are cleanly ORKOed with Ranulf. By the looks of it, he only struggles against one of them which has 20 Def.

1x Halberdier lvl 11 (Steel Lance)

HP 38, Atk 30, AS 20, Hit 135, Avo 55, DEF 19, RES 14, Crit 15, Ddg 15

3x Halberdier lvl 10 (Steel Lance)

HP 38, Atk 30, AS 20, Hit 134, Avo 54, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14

1x Halberdier lvl 11 (Steel Greatlance)

HP 38, Atk 34, AS 20, Hit 124, Avo 54, DEF 20, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14

1x Halberdier lvl 10 (Short Spear)

HP 37, Atk 30, AS 20, Hit 109, Avo 54, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14

Warriors aren't very sturdy tbh. Mia with 33 Atk can't quite ORKO them though without skill activation or a crit. She does about 34 damage per round against the 16 Def ones. Ranulf here does cleanly ORKO the 16 Def ones, though again the 17 Def is the other issue.

1x Warrior lvl 9 (Crossbow)

HP 41, Atk 28, AS 20, Hit 154, Avo 54, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 14

1x Warrior lvl 9 (Steel Axe)

HP 41, Atk 34, AS 20, Hit 129, Avo 54, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 14

3x Warrior lvl 10 (Steel Axe)

HP 42, Atk 34, AS 20, Hit 130, Avo 55, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 15

2x Warrior lvl 11 (Steel Axe, one has Coin)

HP 42, Atk 35, AS 21, Hit 130, Avo 57, DEF 17, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 15

Snipers: repeat the same situation: Ranulf cleanly ORKOes while Mia 2RKOes with a chance of ORKOing with a Crit or something.

Generals are the one place where Ranulf clearly (IMO) has the lead in though:

1x Axe General lvl 11 (Steel Poleax)

HP 40, Atk 37, AS 17, Hit 117, Avo 51, DEF 24, RES 15, Crit 10, Ddg 17

1x Lance General lvl 9 (Short Spear)

HP 39, Atk 31, AS 18, Hit 109, Avo 52, DEF 24, RES 14, Crit 9, Ddg 16

1x Axe General lvl 10 (Steel Poleax)

HP 39, Atk 37, AS 17, Hit 116, Avo 50, DEF 24, RES 14, Crit 10, Ddg 16

1x Lance General lvl 12 (Short Spear, Arrive square)

HP 41, Atk 32, AS 18, Hit 112, Avo 53, DEF 25, RES 5, Crit 10, Ddg 17

Notice these guys are very tough. The toughest General with 41 HP / 25 Def takes 26 damage from Ranulf, a clean 2RKO. Mia 3RKOes while sometimes 2RKOing if something like a Crit or skill activates.

So yeah, seems to me that though the Cat situation applies, uncle Ranulf's 38 Mt does make a pretty good difference to Mia's 33. It helps determine that Ranulf here ORKOes most of the time without Skill or Crit activation.

Please come up with a realistic configuration of things to ship over that will fill her 7 inventory slots and prevent Resolve from going over. Recall that you can Seal her, which puts her capacity up high enough to bank a 15-cap skill on her for the transfer.

I believe we attempted to go over with this, but doing this off the top of my head the following seems to be nearly-guaranteed to be carried over:

• 2-3 Master Seals
  
• 2 Arms Scroll (I think there's more than one but w/e)
  
• Ashera Icon (Again, not 100% sure if you get one or not. This is recalling off the top of my head)
  
• Archtomes (which help Soren's earlygame slightly with powerful damage output)
  
• Any Coins (or forges)
  

It's a vague list but you get the point. There's a lot that can be shipped over. For the amount of Coins, I count 9 of them, though keep in mind they can be made with forges for slightly more uberness on them (i.e. forging Mia's Sword right there).

Again, it's pendant on what exactly you're shipping to the GM's. Even sending a Wyrmslayer isn't totally out of the question, though you can buy one cheap in 3-2 thanks to the Silver Card.

She can use Wrath, which the GMs don't want. I don't deny that she's decent with Resolve, but she loses the ability to use it effectively in 3-13, and even if you count that chapter we're still looking at 3-4 vs. 9, here. Bridge too far.

Wrath revolves around shaky crit rates and a higher drop in HP. It's not so much on the HP that I'm harping on, but it's that it's even more difficult to hit to 30% and under than it is to something like 50%. Though, I could be wrong: she may drop to single digits at times, so maybe Wrath is slightly better. Still, now you're gambling on a coin flip of crit rates and I'm not counting something such as Skill on Micaiah and the Laguz's Luck stats.

As for the argument of GMs # of usage > DBs # of usage, keep in mind that Resolve does help make the DB chapters slightly easier. I'm not saying to the point that it makes it a breeze, but in a way it will help marginally with completing the chapters. Durability is the issue here, and despite Resolve Zihark being iffy at best, it's a risk that is manageable to take. Again, not saying DBs Resolve > GMs, just saying that it's use isn't totally a knock-off victory for the GMs.

You're half right: devil's advocate. My arguments for Mia are based in reality. I resent being called a fanboy after spending so much effort arguing up Boyd on this tier list, who is a character that I hate with the fury of an angry god.

I won't go as far as playing the whole "fanboyism" card over and over, but in a way it seems to revolve slightly around that. Boyd though? Then again, we have to argue someone higher up even if we hate them. I hated Darros in FE11; so much that I wanted him down. Though, before the time warp, I got him above many characters due to his durability lead. And I can't say I like arguing units such as Bastian in FE10, Treck in FE6... you get the point, right? Granted, I applaud you for doing such a thing, but in the end... it's inevitable in a way.

EDIT: Sorry, she has 34 Atk, though it barely matters IIRC. The two extra Atk shouldn't change the calculations a whole lot. Also, for the Devil's Advocate part: I'm hoping you thought it was minor nitpicking and such that makes me question some of it, not the whole I wanted to do it because I like to argue.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Colonel M