OMG it's a tier list

[Radiant Dragon]

I heard ignoring points that cover both of these arguments is hip.

Is that so? Must make two of us, then.

You are correct, you would never ever deploy Oliver in the scenario where all you can do is play efficiently.

I'm glad you understand, since this is an efficiency tier list, after all. Units that save turns are higher than units that don't. It's pretty simple, actually.

considering the fact that I'm sick of people ignoring the point that outclassing has absolutely no bearing on one's tier position.

And here's where the hypocrisy kicks in. I have said, multiple times, that being outclassed as a staffbot is devastating, and does in fact have a bearing on a unit's tier position. All of the staffbots would be higher if Micaiah couldn't use staves in the Tower.

Don't give me this "now that's too bad" bullshit on me, what if Micaiah were something like 1/1/1 (something I know is fundamentally impossible if you want to reach the endgame, don't lecture me on that, but 14/8/1 or something strangely jumbled up like that is not unrealistic either) and couldn't nearly do all the shit Oliver could do?

I try not to assume that the player is incompetent. Micaiah doesn't need to be trained much at all to be a good enough staffbot for Endgame; She only has to be used.

Ignoring requests like for actual numbers to back up your points is overrated, too.

I'm tired and busy doing more important things. Sue me. However, it's not like it hasn't been proven by other users that Astrid's chip damage can speed up completions of 2-3 and 3-9.

Even my half-assed naming strategies seemed to be more credible than your "using chip to break through enemies" right now.

How, exactly? If Astrid is saving us turns and Oliver isn't how is he better than her?

Edited August 5, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Rewjeo]

If Oliver is making Endgame harder, then he is a negative overall. There's no real way around that. Although, technically, by being so easy to deploy, Fiona and Astrid should rise above a significant portion of the cast who kick someone better out. So should Kurth by virtue of being forced. I don't really know what the tier list should do about that.

[Radiant Dragon]

If Oliver is making Endgame harder, then he is a negative overall. There's no real way around that. Although, technically, by being so easy to deploy, Fiona and Astrid should rise above a significant portion of the cast who kick someone better out. So should Kurth by virtue of being forced. I don't really know what the tier list should do about that.

Well, we have to think about what units do with their availability as well. Just because Fiona has free deployment for a few chapters, doesn't mean she should rise over someone who, while never optimum deployment, can contribute more than she can.

[Lord Raven]

Is that so? Must make two of us, then.

Not at all. I'm listening, bro.

I'm glad you understand, since this is an efficiency tier list, after all. Units that save turns are higher than units that don't. It's pretty simple, actually.

My point also applies to pretty much everything below like Mid or Upper mid tier. Just thought I'd let you know why I made that statement.

And here's where the hypocrisy kicks in. I have said, multiple times, that being outclassed as a staffbot is devastating, and does in fact have a bearing on a unit's tier position. All of the staffbots would be higher if Micaiah couldn't use staves in the Tower.

No, being outclassed as a staffbot does nothing to tier position, just relative tier position, once again. If Micaiah couldn't use staves in the Tower then it would do nothing to go against any other staffbots deployed; such is the way a tier list works. That's like penalizing every single unit for being a combat unit because Ike is forced in every chapter he exists in because Ike is the second best unit in the fucking game, but you know for a fact that it's not the way it works (compare the necessities of a combat unit to the necessities of a staffbot, it's very much the exact same point but in different magnitudes). Don't even start with me.

I try not to assume that the player is incompetent. Micaiah doesn't need to be trained much at all to be a good enough staffbot for Endgame; She only has to be used.

If she's that ridiculously low level I suggested, she covers 3-5 less tiles than Oliver or something like that.

I'm tired and busy doing more important things. Sue me. However, it's not like it hasn't been proven by other users that Astrid's chip damage can speed up completions of 2-3 and 3-9.

Then show me the other users who have proved it. I don't give any less of a fuck how tired and busy you are, if you can't bring up the numbers to back up your point when you try to contradict me, then you may as well not post at all instead of making further, unbacked baseless claims.

How, exactly? If Astrid is saving us turns and Oliver isn't how is he better than her?

Show me the numbers as to why Astrid is saving turns. I already stated that Oliver's got some potential with Rescue use and Matrona staff directly helping your units with, well, max Biorhythm crucial for skill activation and evasion.

[Radiant Dragon]

No, being outclassed as a staffbot does nothing to tier position, just relative tier position, once again. If Micaiah couldn't use staves in the Tower then it would do nothing to go against any other staffbots deployed; such is the way a tier list works.

If Micaiah can't use staves, we obviously now want to devote one of our Endgame spots to a staff user. This means that all staff users suddenly have 5 extra maps of availability, and 5 extra maps to help save turns. Are you saying that that wouldn't elevate their positions (it would elevate Oliver's, that's for sure)?

Since Micaiah can use staves, the other staff users lose those extra maps of usefulness, and their positions are lowered.

That's like penalizing every single unit for being a combat unit because Ike is forced in every chapter he exists in because Ike is the second best unit in the fucking game, but you know for a fact that it's not the way it works (compare the necessities of a combat unit to the necessities of a staffbot, it's very much the exact same point but in different magnitudes). Don't even start with me.

Then you consider that we obviously need more than one combat unit, so the fact that Ike is better than most of them isn't nearly as crippling for them. This is what I like to call a Strawman argument.

Of course, we also have many more combat units than staffbots, but my point still stands.

If she's that ridiculously low level I suggested, she covers 3-5 less tiles than Oliver or something like that.

It's enough. Huge staff range isn't necessary in Endgame. The maps aren't very big.

Then show me the other users who have proved it. I don't give any less of a fuck how tired and busy you are, if you can't bring up the numbers to back up your point when you try to contradict me, then you may as well not post at all instead of making further, unbacked baseless claims.

Look at playlogs that other users have posted here. While I may not have numbers due to not having the time to go grab them (it's midnight on my end), my claims are hardly unbacked or baseless.

I already stated that Oliver's got some potential with Rescue use and Matrona staff directly helping your units with, well, max Biorhythm crucial for skill activation and evasion.

In Endgame, max Biorhythm is going to be useful for more Hit, not skill activation or evasion (Mantle and the bosses are extremely accurate).

[RNG Princess]

dondon used her for rescue/dropping Danved and she cleared some enemies that other units couldn't iirc

Edited August 5, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Radiant Dragon]

Is it a lot? No. Is it more than Oliver does? Probably, but it's kind of a matter of interpretation.

[Lord Raven]

If Micaiah can't use staves, we obviously now want to devote one of our Endgame spots to a staff user. This means that all staff users suddenly have 5 extra maps of availability, and 5 extra maps to help save turns. Are you saying that that wouldn't elevate their positions (it would elevate Oliver's, that's for sure)?

Since Micaiah can use staves, the other staff users lose those extra maps of usefulness, and their positions are lowered.

Cool shit except that's not at all the case. Since Micaiah can use staves... well, Oliver can still use staves. So he still has that 5 extra maps to save turns, because Micaiah's existence doesn't put him out of a job, it just means you're less likely to use him over Micaiah in any given scenario in the endgame; Micaiah > Oliver on the tier list so the tier list agrees with you in that argument. But that is not the argument being made here.

And yes, I am saying it wouldn't elevate their positions.

Then you consider that we obviously need more than one combat unit, so the fact that Ike is better than most of them isn't nearly as crippling for them. This is what I like to call a Strawman argument.

Of course, we also have many more combat units than staffbots, but my point still stands.

But it still is crippling if your logic is applied. But clearly, this argument is never brought up so it's a non-issue; why apply a double standard for staffbots?

It's enough. Huge staff range isn't necessary in Endgame. The maps aren't very big.

Doesn't matter, Oliver's endgame is still on par with Micaiah's no matter how you wrap it around, but that really is irrelevant considering I'm making a point that states that this doesn't matter at all in Oliver's placement.

Look at playlogs that other users have posted here. While I may not have numbers due to not having the time to go grab them (it's midnight on my end), my claims are hardly unbacked or baseless.

You give them to me and I'll check them out and make an argument. It's your point, not mine.

In Endgame, max Biorhythm is going to be useful for more Hit, not skill activation or evasion (Mantle and the bosses are extremely accurate).

Well, thanks for that tidbit of information.

Is it a lot? No. Is it more than Oliver does? Probably, but it's kind of a matter of interpretation.

Massive matter of interpretation.

On the subject of dondon, did anyone else notice the sheer amounts of staff using he performed in 4-E-1, the amount he used it in 4-E-3, and even 4-E-5? I knew I wasn't fucking crazy for remembering that and bringing up staff utility all the time.

. Hell, Hammerne'ing a rescue staff that Micaiah is to use is good enough as is.

He even used Bastian in there. Replace Bastian with Oliver, Elincia with Oliver, etc (he couldn't even use Micaiah because she was 1/1/1 for all I&P) and you have basically the same exact thing.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Florete]

It still has no bearing on Oliver's quality that he's outclassed as I keep saying but everyone keeps ignoring because the fact that he's low tier covers that Oliver is obviously not doing *that* much better than Micaiah.

I've only skimmed your recent argument, so maybe this has been covered, but I'll address this directly: your point has not been ignored, it's just not being addressed in the way you would expect it to be. The argument against Oliver here is that we will have another staff user available in the maps we can take him to. It doesn't matter that he's better than her or anyone else in a direct comparison because Micaiah, from a tier perspective, is better (in Endgame specifically) simply for the fact that her team will have her + 10 potential combat units while Oliver's only has 9 potential combat units and his staff use is neither significantly better than hers nor important at all as secondary access to staves.

This is important considering him vs other units. His job is covered and there's really no way around that, so you can't simply say "staffbot" and use that as a significant point for him against other units. Him being outclassed does matter. Now, if Micaiah was not forced, that would be a different story.

Let's go a little extreme with an analogy. Take Haar. Why is he the best unit in the game? Flight and powerful, but not only that, the only one for a significant length of time. Even when others come they aren't nearly as good as him (Hawks have no 1-2 range and gauge, Seraphs are just a lot weaker). Now let's say that every unit who joins from 3-P to 3-2 gets class-swapped to Dragonmaster. Same level, stats, and growths, only the class changes. What happens? I daresay Haar would almost suck as a unit in this situation, and he didn't even change at all, because he no longer has any unique merits (his Spd in particular would hurt him a lot).

This is the case with Oliver. Sure, he's got this job that he can do, but it will already be done without him there, and generally better. What he can do has no value because any of that we might have needed is going to be available.

[Lord Raven]

I've only skimmed your recent argument, so maybe this has been covered, but I'll address this directly: your point has not been ignored, it's just not being addressed in the way you would expect it to be. The argument against Oliver here is that we will have another staff user available in the maps we can take him to. It doesn't matter that he's better than her or anyone else in a direct comparison because Micaiah, from a tier perspective, is better (in Endgame specifically) simply for the fact that her team will have her + 10 potential combat units while Oliver's only has 9 potential combat units and his staff use is neither significantly better than hers nor important at all as secondary access to staves.

This is important considering him vs other units. His job is covered and there's really no way around that, so you can't simply say "staffbot" and use that as a significant point for him against other units. Him being outclassed does matter. Now, if Micaiah was not forced, that would be a different story.

I mentioned specifics with dondon's strategy which indeed used more than 1 staff user. Not that I feel that matters, because his Micaiah was *essentially* 1/1/1 (you can get by with a 1/1/1 Micaiah and play efficiently). So in the case that the 1/1/1 happens, what of Oliver then? That's how I feel a Tier List judges merit, because that's free of all bias and comparison. Your argument seems to rely on the fact that units competing for slots is always an issue against every unit, which is simply not true; Oliver loses out on slots when you're thinking of who to deploy for the final chapter but this is covered by the very nature of the tier list. Imagine him as the sole staffbot unit and then judge, because there is a very good chance of a severely underleveled Micaiah not being able to do nearly as much.

Not that I'm ruling out the possibility only in favor of Oliver; it boosts Bastian somewhat, too. It boosts more or less everyone. And he is actually not outclassed by Micaiah if that is what you're saying; he is merely outclassed by just about every other unit which makes sense considering he's that low.

Let's go a little extreme with an analogy. Take Haar. Why is he the best unit in the game? Flight and powerful, but not only that, the only one for a significant length of time.

Let me be frank when I say that those are two massive positives that nobody else matches, obviously. But that's why everyone's lower than him on this tier list. He's absolutely invaluable in the chapters he's in for Part 3 (and 2-E), but this is obvious and the reason isn't because he's the "only powerful flier in part 3," it's because his movement and offensive parameters outclass every unit beneath him and it gets the job done much more efficiently when he exists than when he doesn't exist. After all, if some units didn't exist (say, Mia/Boyd/Gatrie), Haar would still be that high because while he doesn't have as many units to compare to, he is still fucking powerful; conversely, if Haar were to not exist, nobody's tiers would be shifted and Ike would be the best character in the game. It's that simple. I apologize if this sounds like rambling, but this boils down to Haar's mobile/offensive parameters are so nice that it allows him to shave off enough turns to place him above every unit in the game.

Even when others come they aren't nearly as good as him (Hawks have no 1-2 range and gauge, Seraphs are just a lot weaker). Now let's say that every unit who joins from 3-P to 3-2 gets class-swapped to Dragonmaster. Same level, stats, and growths, only the class changes. What happens? I daresay Haar would almost suck as a unit in this situation, and he didn't even change at all, because he no longer has any unique merits (his Spd in particular would hurt him a lot).

No, Haar would still not suck as a unit if everyone were a Dragonmaster. Especially if we give them the same base stats; it would just mean that Haar is relatively weaker because the movement parameters catch up and everyone can wield an Axe. Haar would still be very high on the list, but units like Ike, Gatrie, and Titania for instance would go even further above him. In other words, he'd be just as good, he just wouldn't look as good and instead the tier scale would move upwards. I'd like to note that his stats are still better than most of the Greil Mercs at that point no matter how you slice it, so changing everyone to Dragonmaster pretty much only has him second to Ike. If there were a char that was basically Haar with 2 less in every stat, Haar would still look extremely good, but the other unit would also be considered good because he's merely a slightly inferior Haar.

Of course, if everyone were a Dragonmaster, the game would play much differently. You didn't factor that, because then Haar is merely among a group of broken units (all top tier). You wouldn't even have to carry Ike around in the odd chapter here and there where you'd need to do that to get him somewhere quick, because Ike would be flying and shit.

This comparison does nothing to contradict my point.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Florete]

I mentioned specifics with dondon's strategy which indeed used more than 1 staff user. Not that I feel that matters, because his Micaiah was *essentially* 1/1/1 (you can get by with a 1/1/1 Micaiah and play efficiently). So in the case that the 1/1/1 happens, what of Oliver then? That's how I feel a Tier List judges merit, because that's free of all bias and comparison. Your argument seems to rely on the fact that units competing for slots is always an issue against every unit, which is simply not true; Oliver loses out on slots when you're thinking of who to deploy for the final chapter but this is covered by the very nature of the tier list. Imagine him as the sole staffbot unit and then judge, because there is a very good chance of a severely underleveled Micaiah not being able to do nearly as much.

I would not say there's a "very good chance" of that at all. Micaiah is forced for every map she's available in and should therefore be used plenty. She surely won't have as much Mag as Oliver, but I wouldn't say it's unlikely for her to reach the ~24-28 area.

Even without Micaiah, most other staff users are better than him for one reason or another (not necessarily for staff use). If it were just Micaiah and Micaiah alone, his case wouldn't be so bad.

Not that I'm ruling out the possibility only in favor of Oliver; it boosts Bastian somewhat, too. It boosts more or less everyone. And he is actually not outclassed by Micaiah if that is what you're saying; he is merely outclassed by just about every other unit which makes sense considering he's that low.

Again, directly Micaiah won't beat him, but I keep stressing this point about the team. Oliver's team will have Micaiah. Micaiah's team can have anyone else, anyone better. This is what makes her "better" in a tier sense.

Let me be frank when I say that those are two massive positives that nobody else matches, obviously. But that's why everyone's lower than him on this tier list. He's absolutely invaluable in the chapters he's in for Part 3 (and 2-E), but this is obvious and the reason isn't because he's the "only powerful flier in part 3," it's because his movement and offensive parameters outclass every unit beneath him and it gets the job done much more efficiently when he exists than when he doesn't exist. After all, if some units didn't exist (say, Mia/Boyd/Gatrie), Haar would still be that high because while he doesn't have as many units to compare to, he is still fucking powerful; conversely, if Haar were to not exist, nobody's tiers would be shifted and Ike would be the best character in the game. It's that simple. I apologize if this sounds like rambling, but this boils down to Haar's mobile/offensive parameters are so nice that it allows him to shave off enough turns to place him above every unit in the game.

I don't understand the point of this. You pretty much said what I did but in much more detail.

No, Haar would still not suck as a unit if everyone were a Dragonmaster. Especially if we give them the same base stats; it would just mean that Haar is relatively weaker because the movement parameters catch up and everyone can wield an Axe. Haar would still be very high on the list, but units like Ike, Gatrie, and Titania for instance would go even further above him. In other words, he'd be just as good, he just wouldn't look as good and instead the tier scale would move upwards. I'd like to note that his stats are still better than most of the Greil Mercs at that point no matter how you slice it, so changing everyone to Dragonmaster pretty much only has him second to Ike. If there were a char that was basically Haar with 2 less in every stat, Haar would still look extremely good, but the other unit would also be considered good because he's merely a slightly inferior Haar.

Maybe "suck" was going a bit far but he would definitely be inferior to most of them. As it is, Haar isn't so great without a Speedwing, but now we have plenty of other units who can wreck in the same way he does with a Speedwing but without the Speedwing. Haar as a unit himself isn't really worth it anymore; if someone else doesn't start better, they likely turn out better. His flight has 0 value and his personal stats have little value in comparison.

But that's beside the point. The point is competition; you acknowledged that Haar in this situation would fall below other units despite nothing about him changing. This is the situation Oliver is already in.

Of course, if everyone were a Dragonmaster, the game would play much differently. You didn't factor that, because then Haar is merely among a group of broken units (all top tier). You wouldn't even have to carry Ike around in the odd chapter here and there where you'd need to do that to get him somewhere quick, because Ike would be flying and shit.

I did factor that. Clearly, things like carrying Ike have been taken away from Haar's overall value.

[Lord Raven]

I would not say there's a "very good chance" of that at all. Micaiah is forced for every map she's available in and should therefore be used plenty. She surely won't have as much Mag as Oliver, but I wouldn't say it's unlikely for her to reach the ~24-28 area.

idk dude micaiah's offense blows past thani use in part 1 (HM at least), I'm not sure how much Micaiah would end up being used in efficient play FE10 HM but Level 17 doesn't sound all that realistic for a first promotion.

dondon's strategy allows for 2 staff users at any rate, Oliver's magic is second only to Bastian at this point no matter what happens.

Even without Micaiah, most other staff users are better than him for one reason or another (not necessarily for staff use). If it were just Micaiah and Micaiah alone, his case wouldn't be so bad.

Then I guess that's why he's lower than them all.

Again, directly Micaiah won't beat him, but I keep stressing this point about the team. Oliver's team will have Micaiah. Micaiah's team can have anyone else, anyone better. This is what makes her "better" in a tier sense.

On top of other advantages that Micaiah possesses... but she's already better than Oliver on the tier list so what is the point in repeatedly reiterating that Micaiah is better than Oliver? A ton of units are higher than Oliver just because they're that much more useful to him.

I don't understand the point of this. You pretty much said what I did but in much more detail.

Yes I did, but it's how I made the point that was different; what you said was that Haar is only that good because he's the only unit that is that way whereas I pretty much said that everyone's below him because of that. He isn't that high because there's no one to compare to, he's that high because everyone else is inferior to him because he has those advantages.

Maybe "suck" was going a bit far but he would definitely be inferior to most of them. As it is, Haar isn't so great without a Speedwing, but now we have plenty of other units who can wreck in the same way he does with a Speedwing but without the Speedwing. Haar as a unit himself isn't really worth it anymore; if someone else doesn't start better, they likely turn out better. His flight has 0 value and his personal stats have little value in comparison.

That still doesn't stop him from staying where he is, it just so happens that everyone else elevates above him because of all of that. That is the point that *I* am trying to make. The point is that inferiority is not equatable to "suck" or "loses quality." Besides, would you rather have 7 powerful Dragonmasters or 8 powerful Dragonmasters when you can deploy 8? I'd take 8. You're pretty much turning the army into a superbroken bundle of fucking badasses is what your analogy is doing, it's not detracting from Haar's quality but merely adding quality.

But that's beside the point. The point is competition; you acknowledged that Haar in this situation would fall below other units despite nothing about him changing. This is the situation Oliver is already in.

Yes, and Oliver is still much lower than Micaiah/Laura/Rhys/Soren/Bastian/Elincia/ANY OTHER UNIT THAT CAN USE STAVES THAT I CANNOT BE FUCKED TO MENTION, which is quite aptly covered by the large tier gaps between Oliver and all of those units. I've acknowledged that Haar would fall behind other units, but the tiers would be heavily restructured to accommodate for the fact that everyone's movement parameters have now improved a shitload. You pretty much ending up screwing the tiering system that way, and Haar's use as an individual unit would still be fantastic, he just wouldn't look as good (but still end up being better than characters like Nolan, Zihark, etc) because there are simply many units better than him. That doesn't at all downgrade his quality. I know I keep hammering this but it feels like it's a strange argument for me to word, especially considering we're given an excessively hypothetical scenario that I'm attempting to break down and examine in my head at 5:30 am.

I did factor that. Clearly, things like carrying Ike have been taken away from Haar's overall value.

It's been taken away from every mounted unit's value, at any rate, but that is beside the point. Edited August 5, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Anouleth]

It's not that hard. You assume optimal deployment, except the final slot is the low tier character in question. That's how I've been arguing it.

This isn't about optimal deployment. You don't have to assume optimal deployment to see that yes, Fiona is a complete waste of time and is never going to be used for her combat. You don't have to assume optimal deployment to never ever deploy Lyre. The number of characters that are better than Oliver for Endgame is not quite every single character in the game but it's goddamn close. Any unit that can not get 1-rounded in 4-E-1 is better than him since they have better combat. His staff utility is completely useless in an environment where Micaiah is forced and there is not much demand for healing anyway (freeing up Micaiah to Hammerne and Rescue).

You do not have to assume optimal deploymentto make the statement "Oliver is never getting an Endgame slot". Just assume the player isn't a drooling moron.

[OrangeCrush980]

While we're on the subject, how about this: Lehran for bottom of Lyre tier.

I know you guys normally don't factor in difficulty of recruitment, but Lehran should be an exception. In order to survive a round with the Black Knight, Ike needs 27 speed, but his average speed even at level 20 is 26.15. So, he'll have to take a Speedwing in order to survive, which is a huge waste considering that Speedwings are extremely high in demand (Haar, Titania, Oscar, Boyd(T), etc. all want one really badly). Ironically, Ike's only a good Speedwing candidate if he's speed screwed, but if he is giving him the wing won't bring him up to 27 speed anyway. To make matters worse, the BK has 25 crit to Ike's ~16 luck, so there's also the significant possibility of him getting a crit and making you restart the chapter.

And what's the payoff? Some guy that's only around for a 2-3 turn chapter. His stats are nice, but he doesn't come with a weapon so you'll have to not only spend Micaiah's blessing on Rexaura but trade it to him mid-chapter just for him to be able to attack. He brings the Ashera Staff with him, which looks awesome at first... until you realize that the Fortify staff does the same thing in the hands of a competent staff user more or less.

In my eyes, recruiting Lehran is more trouble than its worth. Lyre is useless, but at least she's free.

[Rewjeo]

Ike can just use a magic card and then he can be carried back by a flier.

[-Cynthia-]

Recruitment costs aren't factored into a unit's tier position, only their impact once playable.

[incognit0]

I fail to see why Fiona is not on top of Bottom:

Oliver- already addressed. He does nothing.

Kurth- never doing anything in an efficiency playthrough.

Astrid- rescue-drops Danved with Makalov in 2-3, but she can easily be killed there. Does nothing in 3-9; the standard 5 turn clear does not need her at all, and after all, this is an efficiency tier list.

Meg- In an efficient run, neither of them are being used for combat. Which leaves Meg's utility versus Fiona's.

To list again, Fiona's utility includes: trading weapons, ferrying ally bishops, plugging chokepoints with allies, bringing Physic Micaiah back from danger in 3-12, and gauge lowering.

[Anouleth]

I know you guys normally don't factor in difficulty of recruitment, but Lehran should be an exception.

Uh, why? Why should we use a different criteria to judge Lehran to everyone else?

(and also it's not difficult to recruit him anyway, so it's not really a "factor").

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Fiona also has innate Savior thus giving her no penalty for Rescuedrop spamming. Gust give her a forged lance so she doesn't suffer massive AS loss and defend herself a bit better and have her rescuedrop spam.

[Lord Raven]

This isn't about optimal deployment. You don't have to assume optimal deployment to see that yes, Fiona is a complete waste of time and is never going to be used for her combat. You don't have to assume optimal deployment to never ever deploy Lyre. The number of characters that are better than Oliver for Endgame is not quite every single character in the game but it's goddamn close. Any unit that can not get 1-rounded in 4-E-1 is better than him since they have better combat. His staff utility is completely useless in an environment where Micaiah is forced and there is not much demand for healing anyway (freeing up Micaiah to Hammerne and Rescue).

You do not have to assume optimal deploymentto make the statement "Oliver is never getting an Endgame slot". Just assume the player isn't a drooling moron.

Erm, I'm saying "if we need to take 10 units, you take 9 of your best units + Oliver," that's what I've been assuming as the criteria for his endgame performance. That's what I've been saying.

[Radiant Dragon]

Fiona also has innate Savior thus giving her no penalty for Rescuedrop spamming. Gust give her a forged lance so she doesn't suffer massive AS loss and defend herself a bit better and have her rescuedrop spam.

I'm reasonably certain the chances of Fiona keeping Savior past Part 1 are almost zero.

[Anouleth]

Erm, I'm saying "if we need to take 10 units, you take 9 of your best units + Oliver," that's what I've been assuming as the criteria for his endgame performance. That's what I've been saying.

Except that the tier list doesn't care. I always like to describe the tier list as ranking units in terms of contribution to an efficient playthrough... and while definitions might vary as to what is and what isn't efficient, taking Oliver to Endgame is certainly in the latter category.

[Lord Raven]

And that's why he's low tier! Thanks for bringing up that argument repeatedly only to have the person you're arguing with know that you're right. I'm well aware that Oliver blows, thank you! I'm not saying that he's good at all, and your argument would be amazing anyway if I was arguing that, but I've still been gauging Oliver's performance in the endgame compared to Astrid's in 2-3 and 3-9 to Oliver being deployed in the endgame or Kurthnaga being used at all in the endgame. In which case, I've argued my case in favor of both of these while arguing against the various arguments that state "Oliver takes up a slot in the endgame"... considering the amount of non-royals units dondon brought into the endgame and 4-turned with staffbotting quite a lot it definitely gives Oliver a chance to shave off turns. More turns than Astrid's chipping can, considering the 3-9 5-turn apparently doesn't at all rely on Astrid's chipping.

Kurth cannot do anything. At all. Ever. What? Someone said "chip" except he can barely do that without getting mauled. The ranged Sages will kill him, the double bow sniper kills him easily, any unit that touches him can 2-3HKO him because of how easily he gets doubled. I'm aware that the same arguments apply to Oliver and they all kill him worse (well, the Sages won't do that much to him), except that I'm not arguing at all that Oliver is an offensive unit. Keeping him out of harm's way is not a big deal, considering how easily it is to rout any enemy that would come into his range (and dondon's 4-turn takes precautions when doing that). Kurthnaga's utility relies on being in harm's way, and if he's adjacent enough to a unit to give them defense boosts (which they won't even completely need) then he's actually pretty likely to be attacked, and if Kurthnaga attacks that definitely insinuates some degree of frontlining... not that it does anything to reduce turn count. I'm also aware that 4-E-1 can easily be 2-turned without Oliver, but my point is that alternate 3- or 4- turn strategies at least exist (on top of the fact that staff users were used in 4-E-3 and 4-E-5 on the playthrough), whereas Astrid has just as much if not less involvement for alternate strategies in 2-3 and 3-9.

[Anouleth]

And that's why he's low tier! Thanks for bringing up that argument repeatedly only to have the person you're arguing with know that you're right. I'm well aware that Oliver blows, thank you!

Good, so will you end this ludicrous talk of Oliver taking an Endgame slot, since you apparently concede that he's not going to get one because he is awful?

I'm not saying that he's good at all, and your argument would be amazing anyway if I was arguing that, but I've still been gauging Oliver's performance in the endgame compared to Astrid's in 2-3 and 3-9 to Oliver being deployed in the endgame or Kurthnaga being used at all in the endgame.

But Oliver does not have endgame performance. Because we are not taking him to endgame. What part of this do you not understand?

In which case, I've argued my case in favor of both of these while arguing against the various arguments that state "Oliver takes up a slot in the endgame"... considering the amount of non-royals units dondon brought into the endgame and 4-turned with staffbotting quite a lot it definitely gives Oliver a chance to shave off turns. More turns than Astrid's chipping can, considering the 3-9 5-turn apparently doesn't at all rely on Astrid's chipping.

Congratulations, dondon used a lot of staff users. None of which were called Oliver. If even in a 0% growths playthrough, Oliver does not have a chance of getting deployed in Endgame, then Oliver is certainly not going to be deployed in a growths playthrough.

It is ludicrous to talk of Oliver shaving off a turn. There is nothing Oliver does that will ever save you a turn.

Kurth cannot do anything. At all. Ever.

He can shove. Oliver cannot do that because we will not deploy him.

What? Someone said "chip" except he can barely do that without getting mauled. The ranged Sages will kill him, the double bow sniper kills him easily, any unit that touches him can 2-3HKO him because of how easily he gets doubled. I'm aware that the same arguments apply to Oliver and they all kill him worse (well, the Sages won't do that much to him), except that I'm not arguing at all that Oliver is an offensive unit. Keeping him out of harm's way is not a big deal, considering how easily it is to rout any enemy that would come into his range (and dondon's 4-turn takes precautions when doing that). Kurthnaga's utility relies on being in harm's way, and if he's adjacent enough to a unit to give them defense boosts (which they won't even completely need) then he's actually pretty likely to be attacked, and if Kurthnaga attacks that definitely insinuates some degree of frontlining... not that it does anything to reduce turn count. I'm also aware that 4-E-1 can easily be 2-turned without Oliver, but my point is that alternate 3- or 4- turn strategies at least exist (on top of the fact that staff users were used in 4-E-3 and 4-E-5 on the playthrough), whereas Astrid has just as much if not less involvement for alternate strategies in 2-3 and 3-9.

I believe I've already made myself extremely clear. Oliver's 4-E performance is not worth discussing since Oliver is not deployed in 4-E in an efficient playthrough (which is what the tier list cares about).

[Florete]

idk dude micaiah's offense blows past thani use in part 1 (HM at least), I'm not sure how much Micaiah would end up being used in efficient play FE10 HM but Level 17 doesn't sound all that realistic for a first promotion.

Level 17? Why the hell does she need to get there? Fyi, she only needs to be 10/10/1 or equivalent to reach 24 Mag on average.

dondon's strategy allows for 2 staff users at any rate, Oliver's magic is second only to Bastian at this point no matter what happens.

This is not a 0% growths tier list. "Dondon" is not a valid argument. Not yet, anyway.

On top of other advantages that Micaiah possesses... but she's already better than Oliver on the tier list so what is the point in repeatedly reiterating that Micaiah is better than Oliver? A ton of units are higher than Oliver just because they're that much more useful to him.

Because he is directly competing with her. We cannot ignore Micaiah when comparing Oliver to others because the existence of one staff user in Endgame necessarily drops the need for another. I tried to explain this in a different, more detailed way, so I don't know what's still missing. She doesn't even have to be on the tier list at all for this to matter, she just has to exist and be used.

Yes I did, but it's how I made the point that was different; what you said was that Haar is only that good because he's the only unit that is that way whereas I pretty much said that everyone's below him because of that. He isn't that high because there's no one to compare to, he's that high because everyone else is inferior to him because he has those advantages.

I never said there was no one to compare him to. You have not made the point any different.

That still doesn't stop him from staying where he is, it just so happens that everyone else elevates above him because of all of that. That is the point that *I* am trying to make. The point is that inferiority is not equatable to "suck" or "loses quality." Besides, would you rather have 7 powerful Dragonmasters or 8 powerful Dragonmasters when you can deploy 8? I'd take 8. You're pretty much turning the army into a superbroken bundle of fucking badasses is what your analogy is doing, it's not detracting from Haar's quality but merely adding quality.

Wrong. Quality is relevant. If we have 8 units on a team and 7 of them ORKO everything while getting 20RKOd in return while the last ORKOs half the enemies and 2RKOs the others while getting 12HKOd in returns, that last unit is the worst unit on the team and "sucks" in comparison. It doesn't matter what Haar can do if anyone else can do it and often better, so yes, he does lose quality.

And if I want 8 Dragonmasters, the 8th doesn't have to be Haar.

Yes, and Oliver is still much lower than Micaiah/Laura/Rhys/Soren/Bastian/Elincia/ANY OTHER UNIT THAT CAN USE STAVES THAT I CANNOT BE FUCKED TO MENTION, which is quite aptly covered by the large tier gaps between Oliver and all of those units. I've acknowledged that Haar would fall behind other units, but the tiers would be heavily restructured to accommodate for the fact that everyone's movement parameters have now improved a shitload. You pretty much ending up screwing the tiering system that way, and Haar's use as an individual unit would still be fantastic, he just wouldn't look as good (but still end up being better than characters like Nolan, Zihark, etc) because there are simply many units better than him. That doesn't at all downgrade his quality. I know I keep hammering this but it feels like it's a strange argument for me to word, especially considering we're given an excessively hypothetical scenario that I'm attempting to break down and examine in my head at 5:30 am.

Let's tackle that specific: Haar vs Nolan/Zihark. In this situation, Haar would not be better. Their part 1 utility would not change at all and therefor be much more valuable than Haar's redundant performance in part 3 and 4. Yes, it does downgrade his quality, because quality is relative. Go back to the example I gave earlier. Let's say that last unit is not actually on the same team, but on a team with other units who all 3RKO and get 3RKOd in return. Our favorite unit is now the most valuable out of all units in question with the given information despite having worse raw performance than the original guys because of the value he has where he is.

Kurth cannot do anything. At all. Ever.

Kurth can save Rafiel from Ashera's AOE attack and is otherwise a free Shover in 4-E-3.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire