OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

Ulki wouldn't mind Marcia's Fire affinity since it's +3 Atk (+6 when he doubles) when it's an A. And Str is usually the slightly weaker end for Ulki.

[Mekkah]

While I agree Meg > Astrid, comparing Meg to Nolan and saying "wow they only differ this much while Nolan is 5 tiers above her" says literally nothing. You only proved Nolan > Meg by the amount you showed, but that is no argument for moving Meg above Astrid.

[Yojinbo]

Considering how exp rich 2-E is and that she'll likely get paragon in 3-9 yes I do.

That's ridiculous.

2-P has only 8 turns and is full of enemies that can rape Marcia if she doesn't use the Javelin. And she only 2RKOs those Dracoknights if she uses the Steel Lance, which leaves her defenseless against Hand Axes, which again results in her getting raped. The only way she gets a lvl up is if she kills the Boss, which is blatant favouritism as Haar and transformed Nealuchi can do this ten times better.

2-3 gives little Exp as many opponents are killed by allied units. She'll probably get a level up from the Exp of 2-E.

2-E has 15 turns but unless she's extremely lucky with Killer Lances she can't fight anything face to face. She has to attack down the ledge or from 2 range...either way she won't kill much and certainly won't get more than 2 lvl up's.

3-9 is a bad chapter for her as she has littlee space and many enemies have 2 ranged weapons so she can't safely hit them. Even with Paragon, there's no way she'll get more than one level up ...

In the very best case she gets one lvl up from 2-P and 2-3, and two in 2-E and 3-9. That's still only 5 lvl ups and involves huge amounts of favouritism (giving her Paragon, Killer Lance and many potshots to actually kill something).

Ulki wouldn't mind Marcia's Fire affinity since it's +3 Atk (+6 when he doubles) when it's an A. And Str is usually the slightly weaker end for Ulki.

Few units would mind a fire support. The problem is that there's an abudance of fire affinity within the GMs. Mia, Boyd, Heather, Rhys and Reyson all have fire affinity. By the time Marcia joins Ulki could already have a B-support with one of those units. I understand that Marcia matches Ulkis mobility but that's not a good reason to break an allready established support, unless it's really horrible ... Heron + Canto unit makes a lot of sense as support couple so Ulki + Reyson isn't out of the question.

Tanith's earth support is in general very desired among the GMs, since only Ike and Oscar have it. Mia is absolutley forgettable without Ike's support and Boyd also can make very good use of a support with Oscar since they already have a bond support. Pretty much every unit would like to support somebody with that affinity but only two can get it.

Tanith + Janaff is a very benifitial support couple, as both can make great use of the stat boosts. With increased avo and def Janaff becomes untouchable and is even untransformed extremely hard to hit. A lot of issues with the transformatiuon gauge are taken care of that way. Tanith herself likes to see defensive boosts as well.

[Progenitus]

While I agree Meg > Astrid, comparing Meg to Nolan and saying "wow they only differ this much while Nolan is 5 tiers above her" says literally nothing. You only proved Nolan > Meg by the amount you showed, but that is no argument for moving Meg above Astrid.

...what the hell, dude? Did you read any of my posts?

Did you ignore that I also compared Astrid and Meg directly in 4-1 and how Meg was raping her up the ass?

Did you ignore that I also compared Astrid to a base level Oscar and showed how she gets crushed by FAR MORE than how much Nolan beats Meg?

Did you ignore that I also pointed out in 4-1 Gatrie beats Meg in stats by roughly the same amount that Meg beats Astrid?

I pretty much covered all the necessary bases required in a cross-team comparison. The Nolan vs Meg part was just one of it.

[Zkirsche]

I think Leo < Ilyana. Why? Enemy phrase:

Turn 1: Player phrase Ilyana: Attacks, no counter attack

Player phrase Leo: Attacks, no counter attack

Enemy phrase Leo: Attacked, no counter attack.

Enemy phrase Ilyana: Attacked, counter attack

Turn 2: Player phrase Ilyana: Use vulnerary

Player phrase Leo: Use vulnerary

Enemy phrase Ilyana: Attacked, counter attack

Enemy phrase Leo: Attacked, no counter attack.

For the rest of the chapter turn 2 is repeated unless one is healed by Laura, in which case they can attack on the player phrase again. But both can be healed by Laura so it's effectively favouritism if we heal one but not the other. Ilyana attacks twice as much as Leo (More if she doubles), and she deals more damage too:

Level 12/0 Ilyana with El/thunder: 22 HP, 15/18 Atk, 13 AS, 32 Avo, 3 Def, 9 Res

Level 7/0 Leo with an iron/steel bow: 19 HP, 15/19 Atk, 11/10 AS, 30/28 Avo, 6 Def, 6 Res

Offensively, Ilyana has similar whilst having higher AS (Which is good for doubling a fighter and a knight) and attacking Res (Soldiers have def-res gaps of ~5, armours have ~10, Archer's have ~4 and fighters ~5). Couple this with no enemy phrase and Ilyana is Leo'sa superier offensively.

Defensively, it's a tough call. 2/4 Avo + 3 HP vs 3 Def. Neither the def nor HP is enougth to make a differance in RKO rates. An enemy would need 15 Atk to 3RKO Leo and they simply don't exist. So I'd say the Avoid helps more. Plus, Leo's an enemy magnet due to no 1-2 range. Ilyana has shade. Simply put, Leo loses durabiltiy too.

Ilyana > Leo in 1-3.

What changes?

Ilyana: 55%/50%/30%/100%/30%/50% -- HP/Atk/AS/Avo/Def/Res

Leo: 60%/40%/35%/135%/35%/55% -- HP/Atk/AS/Avo/Def/Res

Leo has better growths, yes. and he is a lower level so you'd assume that he gets more exp. But his lack of combat on teh enemy phrase really hurts his growth, and it's not unfair to say that Ilyana grows as fast as, or perhaps more than, Leo does. So, let's give Ilyana 1.3333 levels per chapter and Leo 1.1666. Leo an Eddie support, Ilyana an Aran support. At endgame:

Level 20/1 Ilyana with a forged thunder, 'A' Aran: 28 HP, 25 Atk, 16 AS, 49 Avo, 11 Def, 17 Res

Level 14/0 Leo with a forged iron bow, 'A' Eddie: 23 HP, 25 Atk, 13.5 AS, 38.5-40.5 Avo, 11.5 Def, 12 Res

Offensively, they have the same attack except Ilyana attacks Res and has an enemy phrase. Ilyana wins.

Defensively, Ilyana has 5 HP, 8.5-10.5 Avo and 5 Res against Leo's 0.5 Def. Ilyana has to take 3 melee attacks to drop below Leo's health, but after 3 attack, they'll both be dead anyway. So Ilyana's avo still makes the differance.

You might question the Ilyana - Aran support, but Aran is a meh unit and doesn't really care too mcuh about starting with 0 supports in part 3. His only use in part 3 is chokeholing anyway, and he only get 2RKO'ed so resetting supports isn't a big negative.

Then, Ilyana goes off to the GM's. Now she's in a team which has enougth durability to protect her, Leo's in a team which gets 2RKO'ed with the exception of a few. So Ilyana's a much smaller detriment that Leo is. Ilyana wins.

Onto part 4, giving Leo a miraculous 2 levels per chapter in part 3 and Ilyana a mere level, we get something that looks like this in part 4:

Level 20/10 Ilyana with a forged Fire, 'A' Boyd: 33 HP, 33.5 Atk, 19 AS, 51 Avo, 13 Def, 20.5 Res, 26 Crit

Level 15/6 Leo with lughnadsea, 'A' Eddie: 29 HP, 34 Atk, 22 AS, 60 Avo, 15 Def, 17 Res, 27.5 Crit

Offensively, it's Ilyana with her enemy phrase and res-attacking utility against Leo's Crit. Ilyana wins.

Defensively, Ilyana may still have innate shade, doesn't attract enemies with lack of enemy phrase, 3.5 Res and 4HP against Leo's 9 Avoid and 2 Def. I'm still siding with Ilyana on this one.

Ilyana - Boyd isn't too unlikely as Boyd appreciates the def and Ilyana the attack.

Ilyana > Leo.

Ulki wouldn't mind Marcia's Fire affinity since it's +3 Atk (+6 when he doubles) when it's an A. And Str is usually the slightly weaker end for Ulki.

It doesn't double the bonus.

+2 Atk is fine for him, he prefers the avoid against the crossbow users.

[-Cynthia-]

Illyana going off to the GMs is actually a negative for her, since she's around the second worst unit there, Leonardo isn't that bad compared to the rest of the DB.

Going to the GMs might make Illyana more prepared for Part 4, but this is somewhat balanced out by the fact that Leonardo is in the better class (Marksman> Sage). Leo provides better supports (Water>Light, more consistent partners) and has a few chapters of utility where Illyana doesn't exist. It's tough to call. Illyana countering on the Enemy Phase isnt that important since she can't take more than one ghit without risking death anyway, so the effect is less noticeable than Shinon vs. Gatrie for instance

Edited June 26, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Yojinbo]

Don't forget Lugh and possibly beastfoe...

[dondon151]

2-P has only 8 turns and is full of enemies that can rape Marcia if she doesn't use the Javelin. And she only 2RKOs those Dracoknights if she uses the Steel Lance, which leaves her defenseless against Hand Axes, which again results in her getting raped. The only way she gets a lvl up is if she kills the Boss, which is blatant favouritism as Haar and transformed Nealuchi can do this ten times better.

This is actually ridiculous. I got Marcia to level up on this map, but PE aside, I'll go through some numbers and rhetoric:

Nealuchi has 27 atk against Steel Lance Marcia's 26. Wow, he's doing a whole lot better here, isn't he? He also untransforms halfway through the map.

Marcia is the most entitled to kills, because since she and Nealuchi have similar attack, but Nealuchi has inferior EXP gain, attack order should be more often Nealuchi-Marcia than the other way around.

Marcia doesn't have problems surviving on this map. She shouldn't get attacked more than twice per enemy phase and Elincia has her Mend staff.

2-3 gives little Exp as many opponents are killed by allied units. She'll probably get a level up from the Exp of 2-E.

Wait, what prevents Marcia from killing enemies if allied units will get to them anyway?

3-9 is a bad chapter for her as she has littlee space and many enemies have 2 ranged weapons so she can't safely hit them. Even with Paragon, there's no way she'll get more than one level up ...

OK, this is not related to your post, but I have to dispel this myth that Marcia can't save the north villages because of the sniper. Marcia never has to end her turn within the sniper's range to save the village. After she saves the village, she can fly down onto the lower level to help the rest of the team because there are no more threats to north villages until like turn 9 when soldiers reinforce.

In the very best case she gets one lvl up from 2-P and 2-3, and two in 2-E and 3-9. That's still only 5 lvl ups and involves huge amounts of favouritism (giving her Paragon, Killer Lance and many potshots to actually kill something).

If you're assuming a CRK will be used, it's a rule of thumb that he/she gets Paragon in 3-9.

[Yojinbo]

This is actually ridiculous. I got Marcia to level up on this map, but PE aside, I'll go through some numbers and rhetoric:

Nealuchi has 27 atk against Steel Lance Marcia's 26. Wow, he's doing a whole lot better here, isn't he? He also untransforms halfway through the map.

Marcia is the most entitled to kills, because since she and Nealuchi have similar attack, but Nealuchi has inferior EXP gain, attack order should be more often Nealuchi-Marcia than the other way around.

Marcia doesn't have problems surviving on this map. She shouldn't get attacked more than twice per enemy phase and Elincia has her Mend staff.

Marcia gets 3HKOed ... untransformed Nealuchi gets 4HKOed and has better avo... her durability is average but demanding all healing is pretty much a sign of durability issues. Haar might need healing too.

If you're assuming a CRK will be used, it's a rule of thumb that he/she gets Paragon in 3-9.

And who said that Marcia is the only CRK used?

[Colonel M]

It doesn't double the bonus.

+2 Atk is fine for him, he prefers the avoid against the crossbow users.

It's like +6 when he doubles. Nevermind the fact that his Avoid in the first place is pretty solid as is.

[Zkirsche]

Illyana going off to the GMs is actually a negative for her, since she's around the second worst unit there, Leonardo isn't that bad compared to the rest of the DB.

He has the worst dodge, gets 2RKO'ed by non-tigers, ORKO'ed by 39 Atk tigers and 41 Atk tigers. I don't see how Leo isn't that bad. He's only better than Fiona.

Ilyana on the other hand:

Level 20/2 Ilyana with a forged Fire: 29 HP, 27.5 Atk, 17 AS, 59 Avo, 9 Def, 14.5 Res

Level xx/7 Soren with a forged Fire, 'C' Ike: 29 HP, 36 Atk, 19 AS, 75 Avo, 9.5 Def, 22 Res

Level xx/4 Rofl with a forged steel bow, 'C' Shinon: 35 HP, 34 Atk, 20 AS, 74 Avo, 15 Def, 11 Res

Ilyana is worse than tehse units, yes, but not tonnes worse. Remember that this is an unsupported Ilyana who is at a lower level. Once she catches up, she's on par with these two.

Having more time to catch up really helps you and stops the detriment being great.

so the effect is less noticeable than Shinon vs. Gatrie for instance

I think you missed this part:

Turn 2: Player phrase Ilyana: Use vulnerary

Player phrase Leo: Use vulnerary

Enemy phrase Ilyana: Attacked, counter attack

Enemy phrase Leo: Attacked, no counter attack.

As you can see, being frail and having no enemy phrase = epic fail. Leo gets no combat every even numbered turn without getting healed by Laura and no odd numbered turn by doing nothing the turn before aside from healing.

It's like +6 when he doubles. Nevermind the fact that his Avoid in the first place is pretty solid as is.

It's +4 without. That's more than enougth damage. if +4 doesn't do it, + 6 won't.

His avoid isn't high enougth to dodge crossbows who practically ORKO him. Then you have to consider him untransformed and you see that the bonuses from earth are much better.

Edited June 26, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

He's one of the only DB members attacking at range though, which means he can avoid counters without sacrificing offense. He can avoid OHKOs by Tigers fairly easily, a 10/1 Leonardo with an A Edward and Seraph Robe can do it.

For your Illyana/Leonardo comparison, you're not taking into account that Leonardo is slightly more durable than Illyana.

9/0 Leonardo( C Edward) has 20 HP and 8 Def

14/0 Illyana has 23 HP and 4 Def

This means any enemy with 16 or 17 Atk can 2RKO Illyana, but not Leonardo. Enemies with 27 Atk can OHKO Illyana, but not Leonardo.

In general though, both are 2RKOd. In the situation you presented Illyana is better, but that's assuming you get exactly one enemy to attack them each round. If they get two enemies they're probably both dead, but in general we don't want either being attacked on the Enemy Phase.

Also, only being marginally worse than the 2 worst GM's doesn't really count for anything.

Edited June 26, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

He's one of the only DB members attacking at range though, which means he can avoid counters without sacrificing offense. He can avoid OHKOs by Tigers fairly easily, a 10/1 Leonardo with an A Edward and Seraph Robe can do it.

So let's see what we've given him:

* A forge.

* A Seraph Robe

* A master seal.

Then, let's see what we've given Ilyana:

* A forge.

Hmmmmm....

Jill wants Seraph robe. 'A' Edward at 15/1 doesn't cut it. See, he gets ORKO'ed.

Oh, many a unit attacks at range now. With short spears/short axes/storm swords available. Then, in 3-12 and 3-13 you get access to a tomahawk and tempest blade respectively. Being walled in = negative utility. We'd much rather have someone on the front lines chokeholing, teh most important job. Even Fiona can take potshots.

This means any enemy with 16 or 17 Atk can 2RKO Illyana, but not Leonardo. Enemies with 27 Atk can OHKO Illyana, but not Leonardo.

Don't exist.

In general though, both are 2RKOd. In the situation you presented Illyana is better, but that's assuming you get exactly one enemy to attack them each round. If they get two enemies they're probably both dead, but in general we don't want either being attacked on the Enemy Phase.

But Ilyana can be attacked on the enemy phrase.

Also, only being marginally worse than the 2 worst GM's doesn't really count for anything.

Yeah it does. Leo's worse than every other DB save Fiona. Ilyana is worse than all the GM's, but quickly catches up.

BTW, Leo won't be a marksmen until 4-E, most liekly. or at least not before Ilyana. Archsage > Sniper. Healing utility = good.

[Florete]

Does she do anything good in the chapters she's in? No, she doesn't.

She does actually.

Does she have good durability? No, she doesn't.

It's decent.

Is she a good support partner? No, she isn't.

She's not a bad support partner.

Not the greatest counters I could have pulled, but you weren't asking for much.

Tanith has a base spd of 23. Marcia needs to be -/10 for that, which means that she magically has to get 5 level ups in only 4 chapters. How does she do that when she can't kill anything and has poor durability? By the time Tanith joins Marcia will be at -/8 if you're realistic.

Because of 3-9 Paragon I'd say 20/11-12 is realistic.

Also have fun using Marcia in part 4, where she'll be 20/10 at best,

Holy shit, sandbag much?

Let's also mention that Tanith has Earth affinity. And that she's closer to promotion aka access to mastery skills. And that from the moment she joins she's the better unit. And that Marcia doesn't actually do anything good before Tanith joins in the first place.

Let's also mention that the best partners for them happen to be each other...

Ulki/Janaff prefer the avo against crossbows more than each others def boosts. Then, you have to factor in that there's an odd amount of GM's:

Actually, no. Ulki especially, but even Janaff is fine on the defensive end. If anything, they'd both prefer Marcia for the offense boost, since by the time the support builds there are little to no Crossbow enemies.

Ike

Titania

Oscar

Boyd

Gatrie

Shinon

Mia

Nephenee

Haar

Mordecai

Ranulf

Ulki

Janaff

Reyson

Mist

At least one of these gets the short straw and doesn't support anyone. That means that the unit might choose between Tanith or Marcia. Whoever it is, Earth > Fire.

And now you have to assume everyone on that list is being used...

Whilst this is true, Marcia can be RNG screwed in many areas, Tanith can't. Tanith wins.

Marcia can also be RNG blessed in many areas. Suck it Tanith.

2-P has only 8 turns and is full of enemies that can rape Marcia if she doesn't use the Javelin. And she only 2RKOs those Dracoknights if she uses the Steel Lance, which leaves her defenseless against Hand Axes, which again results in her getting raped. The only way she gets a lvl up is if she kills the Boss, which is blatant favouritism as Haar and transformed Nealuchi can do this ten times better.

God, I hate it when people say this. Let me say it loud and clear, for about the fifth time, so that everyone can hear it:

Marcia has no durability issues in 2-P!!!

She's 3-4HKOd by everything but the boss and with decent avoid, and due to being the only character taking damage, she has a monopoly on Elincia's staff. I could pull getting hit as a positive for her since it's the only way Elincia cang et any kind of decent experience here.

2-3 gives little Exp as many opponents are killed by allied units. She'll probably get a level up from the Exp of 2-E.

If allied units can kill them why the hell can't Marcia?

2-E has 15 turns but unless she's extremely lucky with Killer Lances she can't fight anything face to face. She has to attack down the ledge or from 2 range...either way she won't kill much and certainly won't get more than 2 lvl up's.

That's fine. Still better than not existing.

3-9 is a bad chapter for her as she has littlee space and many enemies have 2 ranged weapons so she can't safely hit them. Even with Paragon, there's no way she'll get more than one level up ...

Javelins exist, and with Paragon she can actually get quite a few levels depending on how many kills she gets.

In the very best case she gets one lvl up from 2-P and 2-3, and two in 2-E and 3-9. That's still only 5 lvl ups and involves huge amounts of favouritism (giving her Paragon, Killer Lance and many potshots to actually kill something).

Favoritism she's practically entitled to, aka it's not being counted against her.

Tanith + Janaff is a very benifitial support couple, as both can make great use of the stat boosts. With increased avo and def Janaff becomes untouchable and is even untransformed extremely hard to hit. A lot of issues with the transformatiuon gauge are taken care of that way. Tanith herself likes to see defensive boosts as well.

The problem is that it takes Janaff's durability from great to overkill. He'd prefer the offense since he doesn't quite one round everything.

Marcia gets 3HKOed ... untransformed Nealuchi gets 4HKOed and has better avo... her durability is average but demanding all healing is pretty much a sign of durability issues. Haar might need healing too.

....The hell?

And who said that Marcia is the only CRK used?

How many CRK's do you plan on using in one run? Two Paragons to split among 7 people:

-Geoffrey's leaving, so giving it to him means losing it for 3 maps.

-Astrid sucks

So only 5 more. Due to Marcia actually being used and the fact that we're unlikely to use two more of Calill, Kieran, Makalov, and Danved, she's practically entitled to Paragon.

[Zkirsche]

Any thoughts on Leo < Ilyana?

She does actually.

Examples?

It's decent.

Not as good as Tanith's.

She's not a bad support partner.

She's not as good of a support partner as Tanith is.

Because of 3-9 Paragon I'd say 20/11-12 is realistic.

Calill coudl use that, Kieran can use that etcetera.

Let's also mention that the best partners for them happen to be each other...

You argue'd against that logic when I used it.

Actually, no. Ulki especially, but even Janaff is fine on the defensive end. If anything, they'd both prefer Marcia for the offense boost, since by the time the support builds there are little to no Crossbow enemies.

4-3 doesn't have many crossbow enemies? News to me.

And now you have to assume everyone on that list is being used...

They could just be used to support each otehr, and take them off two by two and you still get an odd number.

Marcia can also be RNG blessed in many areas. Suck it Tanith.

Okay, So Tanith > Marcia when Marcia is screwed and has average stats. Marcia is better when she is blessed. 2 scenario's > 1 scenario.

If allied units can kill them why the hell can't Marcia?

You missed the point, which was that partner units kill things leaving Marcia less things to kill.

That's fine. Still better than not existing.

Marcia doesn't contribute to the completion of the chapters. Neitehr does Tanith. Looks pretty similar to me.

Javelins exist, and with Paragon she can actually get quite a few levels depending on how many kills she gets.

Paragon is not definite.

Favoritism she's practically entitled to, aka it's not being counted against her.

No unit is entitled to anything.

The problem is that it takes Janaff's durability from great to overkill. He'd prefer the offense since he doesn't quite one round everything.

Not against crossbow users.

How many CRK's do you plan on using in one run? Two Paragons to split among 7 people:

-Geoffrey's leaving, so giving it to him means losing it for 3 maps.

-Astrid sucks

So only 5 more. Due to Marcia actually being used and the fact that we're unlikely to use two more of Calill, Kieran, Makalov, and Danved, she's practically entitled to Paragon.

Calill and Kieran are not bad.

Edited June 26, 2009 by kirsche

[Colonel M]

kirsche, you'd have to explain when we're ever using more than two CRK in a playthrough, let alone more than one.

Kieran is okay, but he has Paladin syndrome.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Colonel M

[Zkirsche]

kirsche, you'd have to explain when we're ever using more than two CRK in a playthrough, let alone more than one.

Kieran is okay, but he has Paladin syndrome.

They're not that bad, and if a unit isn't bad, then you can't rule out them being played.

This "Paladin syndrome" is shared between Titania and Oscar, who are in High and upper mid tier respectively. It seems it isn't the worst of syndromes...

[Progenitus]

who gets paragon in 3-9 is kinda like who gets paragon in the part 3 DB chapters.

We have a lot of DB to choose from, but on any given playthrough we're only going to be training like 4-5 guys or so. Say our 4 is Nolan/Zihark/Volug/Jill. It'd be pretty stupid to say "but we could give paragon to Aran", since we're not even using Aran this playthrough. (Now if it was being argued that of this group of 4, Jill was always getting paragon, then we'd have an argument, but that's not the case here).

Similarly, we have lot of CRKs to choose from, but we're probably only going to use about 2 in any given playthrough (though given that they're all kinda bad, even that's debatable. I usually don't use any of them). Suppose our two chosen units we're training is Marcia/Calill. Saying that "but we could give Paragon to Kieran" makes no sense because we're not seriously training Kieran.

And in any case, the CRKs also have an adept to use, so one of the CRKs could just take that instead of paragon. Though note that there are a few snipers in 3-9, so if Marcia really wants to leverage her flying utility she has to take the nullify. Kinda hard to kill an enemy in a timely fashion when Marcia 3HKOs and doesn't double and loses like 80% of her HP in return.

As for Leo vs Ilyana, I'd support Ilyana. She's better in part 1, and Leo doesn't win the other parts by enough to matter, considering all he does is just suck.

Edited June 26, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Colonel M]

The "Paladin" syndrome is much worse for Kieran here because he has a craptastic Spd cap. It's comparable to the Marshall's Spd cap.

Kieran can't even cap Spd at Level 20/20. That is a problem when you your second cap comes at 20/15 and the third is 20/16, so even BEXP is a difficult argument here. And Speed is crucial even in Endgame.

[Shadow Mir]

As for Leo vs Ilyana, I'd support Ilyana. She's better in part 1, and Leo doesn't win the other parts by enough to matter, considering all he does is just suck.

I probably would support Ilyana as well.

[Florete]

Examples?

It got eaten and I don't like repeating myself.

Not as good as Tanith's.

They're actually quite similar durably until supports kick in. Marcia has more HP, Tanith has a bit more Def and Res.

She's not as good of a support partner as Tanith is.

That depends on who they support. When they come, only each other and the Hawks are possibly unsupported, and the Hawks would both prefer offense.

Or another CRK, but then Marcia can have a support on 3-11 while Tanith is still supportless, and we know where that's going.

Calill coudl use that, Kieran can use that etcetera.

Smash covered this well.

You argue'd against that logic when I used it.

That was a formal debate. This is a tier list. There is a difference. Most likely =/= always happening, that's true, but I've already taken other scenarios into account anyway (The Hawks).

4-3 doesn't have many crossbow enemies? News to me.

They also have shit for move there.

They could just be used to support each otehr, and take them off two by two and you still get an odd number.

It's unlikely in any given playthrough that we'd use someone and not have anyone to support them. That's just the way this game works.

Okay, So Tanith > Marcia when Marcia is screwed and has average stats. Marcia is better when she is blessed. 2 scenario's > 1 scenario.

Since when is Tanith > average Marcia? That has never been proven.

God, I wish Marcia vs. Tanith was still here. That must have been one of my best performances, and Cynthia didn't slack off either.

Marcia doesn't contribute to the completion of the chapters. Neitehr does Tanith. Looks pretty similar to me.

Her contribution, when not to clear a chapter directly, is clearing enemies from other's paths, Rescuing others, etc. It's an advantage.

No unit is entitled to anything.

The hell is this? We must be doing all-Laguz runs, since no one being entitled to anything means no one should get a weapon.

Not against crossbow users.

One type of enemy that isn't even extremely common.

Calill and Kieran are not bad.

You're right. To an extent, at least. Both are pretty meh come 3-11. But so what?

Edited June 26, 2009 by Rage Fox

[charmander6000]

Also for whatever reason if you decide to use more than two CRKs Marcia is the best candidate for it. With Paragon Marcia is now able to double many things in 3-11 which makes her able to 2RKO a lot of the map. No other character becomes that much better with Paragon because they are too slow to have enough speed to double, unless you think Danved can go from 20/9 to 20/16 or Makalov can go from 20/7 to 20/15 in 2.5 chapters. Even hard hitters like Kieran still 3RKO after paragon unless you think he goes from 20/11 to 20/17-18 in 2.5 chapters. This is like Mia with adept, sure others can use it, but Marcia uses it the best.

[-Cynthia-]

I'm going to agree with Rage Fox here. Let me break down the list of advantages for each:

Marcia

Positive utility on 2-P, 2-3, 3-9.

AS lead, she's usually beating Tanith by 2 points or so.

Tanith

Better affinity. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that Marcia can have supports built sooner, and that they're likely support partners anyway.

Str lead. This is good, but Marcia can overcome this with supports/Energy drop(less wanted than Speedwing)/ a transfer. 2 AS> 2 Str anyway IMO.

A note on transfers, they're rather likely for both since both of them were top units in PoR. The difference is Marcia caps Str/Spd/Skl, while Tanith only normally caps Spd, which means Marcia closes the gap almost entirely.

Durability is essentially a tie, assuming Marcia is properly leveled (10-11 seems fair). Tanith will promote sooner, and beats Marcia if Marcia is still unpromoted, but Marcia gains Exp faster due to lower level so it's rather even.

If we're using Marcia, she really is entitled to Paragon for 3-9 at least. Geoffrey disappears, Astrid sucks, Danved never becomes good and Makalov takes too long to even become mediocre. It's pretty unlikely that we're using all 3 of Kieran/Marcia/Callil.

[grandjackal]

I'd argue Leo's part 3 is better than Illyana being slightly better at chipping part 1. Leo also never experiences a moment of suck quite as hard as Illyana does during part 3. For further lulz, Dragonfoe crossbows. Actually...lemme find stats, wanna check something.

I don't suppose 110 damage is insta-blicking dragons is it? Because Arbalest with dragonfoe before defense is added does that much damage. Even with 40 defense, it's doing 70 damage, but no hard mode enemy stats for the dragons...

I'd imagine it's insta-blicking white dragons at least.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Progenitus]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...st&p=453605

Or...

Tanith can't really leverage her affinity, since not only does she have to build it up from scratch (it'll be like, C after 3-E is completed, then a B before 4-E, and then maybe an A by the dragon chapter), but has to actually find someone. I suppose a hawk wouldn't mind waiting around supportless until 3-11. But still, it takes time for the support to build up, and only until then is it even a debate (until Tanith can clearly win durability, since Marcia has the offense lead).

On the other hand, Marcia's AS lead is never really that large. She'll be like, 20/11 at best entering 3-11, which puts her spd at ~24 when Tanith has 23. Then she caps at 27 while Tanith will probably have about 24-25 at the time, but then Tanith promotes right after that and jumps to 26-27. Then Marcia promotes and gets 29 when Tanith will have ~28, and by 4-E Marcia will probably have 31-32 when Tanith has 29-30.

Of course it only takes a small AS difference to matter, since IIRC with those AS values, Marcia will be fairly borderline at doubling, which means Tanith is almost never doubling.

Or if that wasn't clear enough, Marcia > Tanith when they both exist, so for Marcia to win overall all she needs to do is have at least neutral utility in CRK chapters.

I'd argue Leo's part 3 is better than Illyana being slightly better at chipping part 1. Leo also never experiences a moment of suck quite as hard as Illyana does during part 3. For further lulz, Dragonfoe crossbows. Actually...lemme find stats, wanna check something.

I don't suppose 110 damage is insta-blicking dragons is it? Because Arbalest with dragonfoe before defense is added does that much damage. Even with 40 defense, it's doing 70 damage, but no hard mode enemy stats for the dragons...

I'd imagine it's insta-blicking white dragons at least.

You don't actually have to use Ilyana during part 3, kinda like how no one really uses Sothe in part 4.

And how is Leo any good in part 3, at all?

As for dragonfoe, anyone can use it.

Edited June 27, 2009 by smash fanatic