OMG it's a tier list

[Shadow Mir]

Anyone else think that Ena and Kurth should be above Pelleas? And speaking of which, why are they below Kyza and Lethe, anyway?

[Narga_Rocks]

For Leo in 4-E-3, I don't really see a point in worrying about whether or not the arbalest is instablicking. See, with dragonfoe and the doublebow and doubling a strong marksman can kill even a red dragon on a cover tile. I don't think the Arbalest can do that with its 114 might. Well, maybe. Reds have, what, 36 defense or something? Around 46 defence on a cover tile so it needs 68 hp. Some will live, some won't. It isn't important though because he can do it from 3 range anyway with a good bow, and the doublebow or a silver forge is likely getting blessed over the arbalest.

As for Marcia, think about how 2-P works. Really think about it. Nealuchi gets 1 exp whether he kills something or not. Why is he killing anything? Nealuchi starts, Marcia finishes. It's been said before. Nealuchi never needs healing and Haar is taking 3, 4, or 5 damage from everything but two iron poleaxe guys and the boss. He is not needing healing until he faces the boss, if then. Next, consider the clouds. They eat a lot of movement. Marcia should never face more than 2 attacks or you are doing it wrong. Next, Nealuchi can't be transformed the whole chapter. Either he eats another use of the laguz stone, or he is taking a few turns untransformed and letting enemies hit him on enemy phase to build gauge. Or the best solution is reverting him on turn 2 after attacking something and being vigored and by turn 4 he can transform and be fine the rest of the map. Elincia isn't doing much damage so Marcia is your best offense for a turn or two if you want to conserve a laguz stone use. Then Haar shows up. You might notice that Haar with a javelin kills nothing from scratch. You might also notice that he is the most durable unit you have and can bring stuff close enough to death with a javelin that Marcia or Nealuchi can kill it. We already discussed the stupidity of having Nealuchi kill something if he can attack something that will live, so either Haar or Marcia finishes it.

Let me ask a question, how much good is 1 level for Haar doing for our team in part 2? Keep in mind he must kill, like, everything on the map himself just to get that level. Haar is around for one more map and his base level is sufficient to be good. If we give him the boss kill in 2-P he might be closer to a level in 2-E, but he'll probably be level 13 or 14 when 3-2 starts and he's fine either way. Elincia doesn't get much if anything from the bosskill, Nealuchi gets less than Elincia, and Leanne can't kill. Marcia, on the other hand, needs levels to be good in part 2. With a 65% speed growth and being borderline to double just about everything, every level you gets her helps double more things in part 2. Thus, leveling her gets a bigger improvement for your army than anyone else in 2-P (and 2-3, but I'll get to that later). Haar is the only other unit that gets respectable experience for the boss kill, but he isn't even there in 2-3 so he isn't helping the army, and he is around for the same number of turns as Marcia in 2-E so she has an availability advantage here. So, killing the boss, Nealuchi + Haar can do it easily. Or, Haar + Marcia + Marcia with vigor. Easy. And as for Marcia's durability, if it helps she dodges a bunch, but to be honest I'm usually annoyed when she does because sometimes it means that Elincia twiddles her thumbs for a turn. Marcia is just about the only reason Elincia ends 2-E at level 3 with little effort.

Now for 2-3, assuming we want to kill as few as possible, Astrid isn't deployed, Makalov and Danved are standing unequipped on thickets near the beginning to occupy 8-10 enemies while they eat herbs and vulneraries whenever they are hit. Marcia, Geoffrey, and Keiran can move up. If you gave enough kills to Marcia in 2-P, she is level 6 with over 50 exp (boss kill helps). She will level after a few kills (I don't have the HM exp formulas). Marcia can kill the fighter that blocks the way north (he moves on turn 1 and gets in the way) just as easily as anyone else, and then she flies over to south of the fence, west of the path, where the bowgun users will never reach her. Geoffrey can stand on the arms scroll spot with a short spear. The bowguns attack him on enemy phase, Kieran and Geoffrey kill them on player phase, Marcia's only real threat is dead. The other bow users are either stuck behind the doors or is the bow paladin that was near the southeast coin and will be blocked by the partners. Marcia can fly over to the horseslayer user (does it move? it is always dead when I play before anyone is in range on enemy phase) and OHKO it. If it doesn't ever move, this is irrelevant. If it does, Geoffrey and Keiran can't kill him with ranged weapons unless they both attack it in one turn. If they end a player phase such that they can attack from one range, guess what, so can he. So Marcia is the most efficient way to kill him. As for the speedwing guy, sure, you can wait for him to drop down, but then so do 3 other guys, or Marcia can hit&run him to death (4RKO without a transfer, 3RKO with a steel greatlance, but she might miss 15% or something, 2RKO with a spd transfer and 1 speed in RD from levels). Now, for the boss, he has 24 mt and a crit rate on everyone. Even without transfers, Marcia should now have 21 speed. This means she faces a max of 24 damage if he pulls off a crit on his one attack. On Geoffrey, a max of 36 damage, but a fairly likely 24 damage (same as vs Marcia, but much more likely). Marcia is actually pretty good at fighting the boss, but with 27 mt she is a 4RKO. Still, though, she can bring the boss down to where Geoffrey or Keiran can kill it after two hits, or just one hit if you want Geoffrey using the brave lance. She is far from useless in 2-3, and since Geoffrey or Keiran will take forever to get the speed needed to double stuff in 3-9, and aren't very useful in 2-E (they miss lots with a -10 on all their attacks), getting Marcia as much exp as possible so she might double stuff is better for your team. If you can get Marcia a boss kill by letting Kieran and Geoffrey range the enemy, you have again improved your army.

Now, for 2-E. Marcia is your best bet against Thunder sages. If you actually want to clear the bottom left area to get the coin and make stealing a dracoshield easier, then Elincia is too busy killing crossbow users. She can kill two in one player phase with help from Leanne. This helps Elincia do stuff on enemy phase and helps Marcia fly more freely. Without a transfer she'll have a hard time doubling the longbow users, but Elincia and Haar are too busy healing and killing to bother with something Marcia or Nealuchi can kill easily. Speaking of Nealuchi, unless you want to have Kieran whacking at the slvr greatlance general with a 60% hit rate, Nealuchi can fly over there on turn 2, position himself to get attacked by precisely 2 armors on enemy phase, hopefully get hit 0 or 2 times, but once isn't so bad, and since he can't do damage he gets enough gauge to transform on turn 3 without resources. He is a 3RKO on the silv greatlance general, or probably better if he is low enough to wrath, but 3RKO just means turn 3 player phase + enemy phase + turn 4 player phase and the general dies pretty easily. Nealuchi can then come back to help or try to get the arms scroll, then come back to give stuff to someone who goes to the GMs. The point is, he is busy too and even if he wasn't he'll be helping Marcia kill the longbows. Really, Marcia has lots to do and can kill quite a few in this chapter. The armor rush on the right side is being blocked by Mordecai anyway and while you could try to push through them to get to the boss, it just seems like less of a hassle to use flight and Leanne to kill the boss. So thanks to Elincia Marcia can end player phase anywhere but on the boss' area, and thanks to Marcia Haar need not worry about thunder mages. The point is, Marcia is useful here, too.

In 3-9, if you were actually using Marcia, she should have gotten 4 levels, minimum, and if you were able to get the boss kill for her in 2-3 she should have 5 levels and 23 speed. She can now double those snipers and some halbs. If you got Kieran or Geoffrey the boss kill, then goody, they got 1 level, maybe 2 and have 21 speed at best. This changes almost nothing about their performance in 3-9. You might try saying giving Marcia 2 boss kills is favouritism, but honestly, what good has that boss kill done Geoffrey? And Haar has plenty of time to level in 2-E and part 3, and he isn't here to help in 3-9, so I hope you didn't let him kill the boss in 2-P. As someone else pointed out, kill the soldier at the top then fly back to the second level and help the others. There are plenty of enemies to kill. Marcia can still fly up to pester the sniper, and either finish him off herself or let someone else. As for the boss, Geoffrey is probably best if you give him the short spear and stand Kieran next to him out of the boss' way. Reason being, just about everyone is OHKO'd by a crit from the boss and Geoffrey can get 23 dodge with Kieran's help. Marcia or someone else can help with the final hit, but nobody can do much else.

So, Marcia is pretty useful in her chapters, and although you might say someone else can do it too, well duh, but it won't necessarily be better for your army and it isn't like someone else does it better anyway. We can say "someone else can do it too" for almost everyone in most parts of the game.

The only purpose of paragon in 3-9 is for whomever you might want to bring to endgame to be better. If you aren't building 2 people up for that purpose then anyone can get them. Marcia might even be better with adept than paragon anyway because she doubles more and has the most speed. Anyway, why would you bring Kieran or Makalov to endgame when Titania and Oscar have better levels and A supports vs C at best? Well, why are you bringing a paladin period, really, but let's pretend bringing Titania or Oscar to endgame is a good idea. They are still better than Kieran or Makalov.

Now, among wishblade users that can actually achieve 34 speed, you've got Nephenee, Tanith, and Marcia (and Sigrun).

Marcia has at least 23 spd entering 3-11 and will just increase the gap with Tanith. The possibilty of crowning Tanith early was brought up, but it already takes her until 20/20 to reach 34 speed. Are you seriously suggesting she'll reach that even by 4-E-5? Now consider a crowned Tanith. Sure she benefits in the short run with 25 speed, but by part 4 that's already insufficient to double warriors and snipers and she'll only have 32 or 33 speed by 16/20. Marcia can have 33 speed by 20/7 or 20/8 and doesn't need crowning to double stuff earlier on. 33 speed is important because it means in 4-E-1 and 4-E-2 everything is doubled except swordmasters. Tanith won't reach that until 20/20 now thanks to the crown.

The point is Marcia is the only one who will get 34 speed, the wishblade, and be able to canto to give someone else dragon help for killing stuff. I don't see how Tanith not even doubling halberdiers in 4-E is better than Marcia, and Nephenee is competition but they are pretty even in terms of endgame potential. And if that's not enough, fire support is better to give more damage against dragons and auras and things like that anyway. Earth doesn't mean much after 4-E-2 is over. We can easily heal if a couple of people get hit by dragons. It isn't like the chapter is actually hard. I'd rather kill them easier.

As for Tauroneo. Okay, we are basically comparing being pretty good in 1-6 to all of Marcia's chapters. In 3-12, all he does is block a ledge with him and a sniper. And if the sniper gets hit the idiot will run and an enemy might come up and now tauroneo has to heal all the time and can't attack anymore. As for 3-13, let's look at optimizing our team. We are getting experience for Jill and Nolan, maybe Zihark, possibly Volug, and none of the others are really better than their GM counterparts. (I'd argue Mia>Zihark so he should get experience either, but whatever). Jill and Nolan actually have potential to be better than Haar and Boyd in endgame because of much more doubling and not needing speedwings. So they might want exp. Tauroneo is worse than Gatrie so if either one is going to endgame, it ain't Tauroneo. 34 defense at 20/20 that he'll never reach? Doesn't compare. Gatrie should be higher leveled and much faster anyway. Someone mentioned crowning Tauroneo, so now he is leveling slower than without one and his defense and speed take even longer to catch up. I don't really see how Tauroneo has any form of endgame potential, especially compared to Marcia.

I don't see how either is > Marcia.

Oh, but I think Ilyana > Leo.

Ilyana doesn't cause as much damage as Soren, sure, but most of the time your people that weaken things for soren are strong enough to do it for Ilyana, too, so who cares. Ilyana will have better def and hp than Soren and be able to actually get 3HKOd in part 4 by a huge number of enemies, between her natural def and hp and her light support. This is huge for building a mage faster. She can even achieve 3HKOd by some tigers in 4-5. They have a range of about 4 mt. She can get 4HKOd by cats pretty easily, and even 5 if standing near her support partner if it is a +2. Even a +1 and on a thicket can get to 5HKOd by cats/hawks/ravens. Ravens are 30 spd though, so that could be bad. Ilyana is pretty comparable to Soren in terms of overall usefulness once part 3 is halfway done. Leo takes so much work to get to Marksman and will never compare to a leveled Rolf or Shinon. Ilyana and Soren are both relegated to ranged spamming in 4-E-3, for example, but in 4-E-1 and 4-E-2 it is easier to get Ilyana attacked by 2 enemies on enemy phase than it is to get soren attacked by 1 enemy. And it is more useful.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Anyone else think that Ena and Kurth should be above Pelleas? And speaking of which, why are they below Kyza and Lethe, anyway?

I actually agree with this. Anyone against it? Ena at least, I'm not so sure about Kurth.

As Leo vs. Ilyana, it was decided once before he was better, but I can't quite recall the specific arguments.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Rage Fox

[dondon151]

In any future Ilyana comparison, she's 18/1 at best when she joins the GMs, maybe even a little lower. Let's explore:

- Ilyana is, for all intents and purposes, limited to 1 attack per turn, just like Leonardo. She gets at maximum 2.

- She joins overleveled in 1-3. Nolan also joins overleveled in 1-1, except he gets 1-3 attacks per turn consistently, equating to more EXP gain than Ilyana.

- Optimal use of Ilyana implies that she weakens enemies more often than she kills them, as this reduces overall need for healing.

- Nolan's average 3-6 level should be anywhere from 18/1 to 20/1, therefore Ilyana's must be lower.

Arguments that Ilyana > Leo because the GMs are better than the DB at protecting their respective failures need to stop as well. This is only a problem in 3-6. In 3-12, you need only 3 units to choke the whole map. In 3-13, unarmed units are as effective as armed units in choking gaps; the only dangers are hawks (which should be OHKO'd by ballistae, Nolan, or Leo). In 3-6, the DB only needs 5 units that can sustain a round of combat. Sothe, Zihark, and Volug are 3, and then 2 others are pretty much given if you'll be using them.

It's actually very easy for the DB to protect weak units in defend maps, as the enemy comes to you and the formation never needs to change. In the GM part 3 maps, a majority of them require advancing and shifting formation, entailing greater risk towards units that need to be protected.

Edited June 27, 2009 by dondon151

[charmander6000]

Kurth with resolve (I don't think there's much competition for it at that point) should double a lot of things and with his defences he won't be in danger of dying at half health. Slapping on Paragon (again not much competition by then) will help his low level. Should be enough to get ahead of Kyza/Lethe.

Leo may start off losing to Ilyana, but he closes the gap by the end of part 1. Then Ilyana goes off and becomes the worst unit on the team besides Lyre, even Heather is doing more damage on some enemies. Leonardo gets two chapters where the enemy is locked into one-range and is basically taking no damage from them, he makes a great case for Beastfoe, but I don't want to get into that.

Edited June 27, 2009 by charmander6000

[grandjackal]

Another thing to mention for Leo is Water affinity is much better than Light (boosts defense, but also is hte only offense boosting affinity for the DB save Michaiah and lolTormod), and that he needs no training to be of use in 3-13. He can commandeer a ballistae no matter what, and he can OHKO hawks no matter what. Hell, we got him to sniper, he can just pick up a bowgun and do the same thing (just ballistae has more range obviously). This is big because Hawks can just fly over the game ending ledge, and Leo has the easiest time denying them.

Speaking of crossbows, here's something Illyana can't do even with Rexbolt, that being Leo can just pick up Arbalest, slap on dragonfoe, and insta-blick dagons without eating a counter in return. Most anyways, couple red dragons might escape the wrath, especially if they're on a cover tile. I'd hardly think even Leo wouldn't be able to double these slow bastards by then either way.

There's also Lughnasahd-Beastfoe crossbow strat for his part 3 performance, which makes him one of our safer units. Nolan can't put it to as good use, as he always has to counter no matter what, which puts him in potential danger. Jill can't either with the brave axe use, as she's not garunteed to hit, which just leaves a weakened laguz running around to potentially land a hit, get killed, and have another laguz move in to slaughter someone.

I don't see Illyana being anywhere near as useful part 3. As a note, I wouldn't consider being comparable to Soren after the first half of part 3 passing is something to be proud of.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Zkirsche]

Kurth with resolve (I don't think there's much competition for it at that point

Untrue, Haar/Gatrie/Any paladin starts to have doubling issues in 4-E.

There's also Lughnasahd-Beastfoe crossbow strat for his part 3 performance, which makes him one of our safer units. Nolan can't put it to as good use, as he always has to counter no matter what, which puts him in potential danger. Jill can't either with the brave axe use, as she's not garunteed to hit, which just leaves a weakened laguz running around to potentially land a hit, get killed, and have another laguz move in to slaughter someone

The fact that a 15/1 Leo with an 'A' with Edward get's ORKO'ed by 39 and 41 Atk tigers means that he has to be walled in. Walls only need to be made up of units that don't get OHKO'ed, but Nolan can be walled in to. Meaning he doesn't counter and get killed by laguz.

Since when did Jill have hitting problems? An 18/1 Jill with the brave axe has 126 Hit, the fastest cats have 52 avo. (62 on the reeds). That's 86.74 real (74.44 real in reeds).

Then there's Volug, who's durable enougth to withstand a few laguz attacks in the first place.

Leo is not the best candidate for beastfoe.

Speaking of crossbows, here's something Illyana can't do even with Rexbolt, that being Leo can just pick up Arbalest, slap on dragonfoe, and insta-blick dagons without eating a counter in return. Most anyways, couple red dragons might escape the wrath, especially if they're on a cover tile. I'd hardly think even Leo wouldn't be able to double these slow bastards by then either way.

You could just give Ilyana dragon foe. This is multiplying Rexbolt's mt by 9 and leaving it with a stunning 108 MT. Ilyana just needs to have a mere 7 mag to have a higher Atk than Leo with dragon foe, and she starts with 12. So it is, at worst, 120 MT.

Ilyana with X resource > Leo with X resource

Ilyana with no resources > Leo with no resources.

Leo with X resource > Ilyana with no resources.

Which of these look better? The first two.

[dondon151]

I am 99.6% sure that effective bonuses don't stack. This is not Pokemon.

Edited June 27, 2009 by dondon151

[Zkirsche]

I am 99.6% sure that effective bonuses don't stack. This is not Pokemon.

I wasn't 100% sure on that either, but whatever, there's still teh fact that giving Leo resources without giving Ilyana any is blatant favroutism.

[Florete]

You could just give Ilyana dragon foe. This is multiplying Rexbolt's mt by 9 and leaving it with a stunning 108 MT. Ilyana just needs to have a mere 7 mag to have a higher Atk than Leo with dragon foe, and she starts with 12. So it is, at worst, 120 MT.

I am 99.6% sure that effective bonuses don't stack. This is not Pokemon.

Coming from a person who has personally used Ilyana with Rexbolt in 4-E-3, dondon is correct. Whether she has Dragonfoe or not, her bonus is still only x3.

[Zkirsche]

Ilyana can also use a bolting to attack Degh from afar.

[Narga_Rocks]

Nobody else needing resolve anymore all depends on who you bring and how safe you feel Kurth is with <28 HP, 30 spd, 21 luck (base 96 avo with stars), 30 def, 30 res. You might notice he is now 2HKOd by 44 mt or more and 3HKOd by anything between 39 and 43 mt. By the way, lv 20/20/11 Ilyana with A support (partner does not have water or light or thunder) and 45 hp, 22+2 def is 2HKO'd by 47 mt or more and 3HKOd by anything between 39 mt and 46. So he is killed 2HKOd more easily than Ilyana and is 4HKO'd by the same might as Ilyana (38 mt). He isn't dodging much better than her 27 spd and 21 luck, which is 90 avo with stars. I don't see how he is helping if a mage matches his durability. And this assumes that you never gave Ilyana even one bexp level when she had a couple of things capped, and that she doesn't have a transfer. I don't see how he is a better user of resolve than, say, Titania or Haar or another high strength low speed unit. Especially if they have more def than Kurth. They might even have close to his hp. Kurth doesn't even double halbs or snipers or warriors. All he's really doubling is generals (all but 2 or 3) and mages.

For paragon, there is 3 paragons but lots of competition. If you brought Jill or Nolan or Zihark to endgame, they are likely 20/5 or something at the beginning of 4-E. They would all like it. Any high strength unit that doesn't get good speed would like it so they might reach 31 or 32 or something in 4-E-2, and double more things (halbs with 31, snipers with 32, warriors with 33). Titania won't hit 33 speed until level 17, or 13 if you gave her a speedwing. If she isn't there yet, she might be helped by paragon to get it faster. Haar doesn't hit 30.4 until 20/20, so I doubt he is hitting 32 speed much before level 20/15 even with slow playing for bexp to get 24 speed in tier 2 and a speedwing in tier 3. (He hits 28.9 speed at 20/15, enough that the extra 1.3 plus 2 from a speedwing gets 32). He would appreciate doubling snipers. Boyd reaches 33.95 speed to double auras with Nasir, sure, but not until 20/20. He might even be assisted by a paragon for 2 or 3 chapters to reach that. He can't even be bexp abused ever until 20/15. Since it would cost way to much to give him 3 levels straight at that point, he then needs to be slowplayed. But there aren't many chapters left, so paragon in 4-E-1 and 4-E-2 would get him at least to 20/15, hopefully. A fair number of your high speed units have lowish strength compared to the higher strength lower speed characters (Nolan v. Boyd, Jill v. Haar, probably others) and even if they start 20/10 might appreciate the boost to reach more strength. I don't particularly see how Kurth is entitled to these things.

Even if he doubles everything, he needs 35x2 attacks just to reach S strike. At which point, let's say he had paragon and somehow reached level 30. I'm not sure what map it is reasonable to have this, even with Paragon and Resolve, but he'll have around 57 attack and 26 or 28 speed, and still won't double any of the bosses or auras because of mantle, and it likely means a couple of units that do double will do less damage, and he still has less attack than people like Boyd and Haar and is one mt more than Titania. And it means Nolan is less likely to get to level 20/20/15 to reach 57 attack with Urvan. Not like everyone mentioned will be in play, but I'm not mentioning every unit he is hurting.

And since he is less durable than a mage while we are letting him have his fun with resolve, we were babying him, too.

And I already said Leo wouldn't need the crossbow trick, unless he isn't a marksman. But then he shouldn't be in endgame. Doublebow with dragonfoe is already enough and will actually kill reds wherever they are without even a counter. Even if he only has 30 strength at the time. Considering though that Ilyana can actually get a decent enemy phase in tier 3 and has a ton of time to reach tier 3 while with the gms, though, I don't see him closing the level gap and Ilyana can have a pretty good time with blessed bolting fun and she can actually pass it around with other units so she isn't taking resources from others. If Leo takes dragonfoe, nobody else can.

I'll give him that with around level 10 first tier and a B Meg support he has a 100% hit rate on those hawks in 3-13 with the ballistae or his special bow. I don't remember how much hp/def they had but 58 mt is pretty good. Since Leo is stuck playing with hawks, though, I'm not sure how much laguz killing he can do without risking leaving a hawk. I don't know what the "3-13 archer" (sniper) has for hit rates, but the other guy is looking at around 80% or something. I've seen him miss, it's annoying. Jill at least can do hit and runs in 3-13 with all the ledges, and she is no longer required to wall (just need two units) so she never runs the risk of getting herself swarmed. And she doesn't have two other people in her class who are just better when trained to compete with. Getting Leo experience seems like a negative if we just drop him later, or using him when we could have used shinon also seems like a negative. Maybe she misses once or twice, but it should be manageable.

And the comparing Ilyana to Soren part is mostly because I wanted to point out that training Ilyana over Soren isn't as detrimental. Especially when she is way more durable than Soren at tier 3.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

Kurth with resolve (I don't think there's much competition for it at that point) should double a lot of things and with his defences he won't be in danger of dying at half health. Slapping on Paragon (again not much competition by then) will help his low level. Should be enough to get ahead of Kyza/Lethe.

Why wouldn't resolve and paragon have some competition?

regardless, it doesn't take much effort to be better than either Kyza or Lethe, who suck and fail the entire game (well, Lethe is kinda average in part 2, but sucks even harder than Kyza after that). Kurth can just be a roadblock in 4-E-3 and still be 10 times more useful than either of them.

Leo may start off losing to Ilyana, but he closes the gap by the end of part 1. Then Ilyana goes off and becomes the worst unit on the team besides Lyre, even Heather is doing more damage on some enemies. Leonardo gets two chapters where the enemy is locked into one-range and is basically taking no damage from them, he makes a great case for Beastfoe, but I don't want to get into that.

He's better than Ilyana outside of part 1, but he's still pretty awful. At least Ilyana's kinda average in part 1.

One of his problems is that he's far too reliant on Lugh to have good offense, to the point where you're wasting one, maybe even two uses of Hammerne. And considering he has no player phase at all, his offense isn't even THAT good (unlike, say, Shinon). The double bow in 4-E barely even help him, since he doesn't double anymore (although he does get 9 more att and 1-range).

And without Lugh, he's just awful anyway. He doesn't double and his att is crap. His offense is like barely any better than someone like Meg, which is really sad.

I mean, take a look at what his stats look like in 4-1 if his Lugh broke.

20/15 Leo

37 HP, 21 str, 30 skl, 21.5 spd, 25.5 lck, 16.5 def, 16 res

With a silencer and an A support he has 39 att. That's like 2 more than 20/10 Meg with her silver blade, and is probably worse than everyone else on the team. That's pretty frickin sad, considering he's getting 2-3HKO'd and because he has no 1-range he's an enemy magnet. Note that he's in danger of getting doubled by the high end warriors/halbs who have 25 spd.

With Lugh, he has the same att and 5 more spd, so his offense is better, but again, you're basically forced to use a hammerne on it, which pretty much cancels out any positive Leo could get with a fresh Lugh, considering you can hammerne something like a brave weapon.

Ilyana can also use a bolting to attack Degh from afar.

Just to let you know, bolting is a pain in the ass to get. We're not getting one unless we fool around in 3-2 and do something dumb (i.e. throw energy drops onto heather so she can actually steal it). I wouldn't bother to count it.

Edited June 27, 2009 by smash fanatic

[grandjackal]

Ilyana can also use a bolting to attack Degh from afar.

It's a pity that he is not affected by slayer effect. Looking at him right now with my Jill with dragonfoe. Weapon ain't flashing, thus no slayer effect. Good luck doing any damage with magic.

As for Leo with the Lugh, doesn't stop the fact that he has it, and has no excuse not to use it. Illyana can't have this sort of option that makes her suck less outside of paragon or stat boosters.

Otherwise, I'm staying out of the debates here. They tend to end up so horribly for me.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Zkirsche]

And I already said Leo wouldn't need the crossbow trick, unless he isn't a marksman. But then he shouldn't be in endgame. Doublebow with dragonfoe is already enough and will actually kill reds wherever they are without even a counter. Even if he only has 30 strength at the time. Considering though that Ilyana can actually get a decent enemy phase in tier 3 and has a ton of time to reach tier 3 while with the gms, though, I don't see him closing the level gap and Ilyana can have a pretty good time with blessed bolting fun and she can actually pass it around with other units so she isn't taking resources from others. If Leo takes dragonfoe, nobody else can.

Shinon can also use the double bow, too. Except Shinon's better. Whihc brings me to another point: Ilyana doesn't stop another unit using an SS weapon. Leo does.

It's a pity that he is not affected by slayer effect. Looking at him right now with my Jill with dragonfoe. Weapon ain't flashing, thus no slayer effect. Good luck doing any damage with magic.

Other dragons then, it makes no differance. Ilyana can kill dragons without being counterattacked or even attacked on the enemy phrase. That's pretty good.

Just to let you know, bolting is a pain in the ass to get. We're not getting one unless we fool around in 3-2 and do something dumb (i.e. throw energy drops onto heather so she can actually steal it). I wouldn't bother to count it.

You can silence the mage who has it in 4-E-1 then use Sothe to steal it. It's not that hard.

Edited June 27, 2009 by kirsche

[Progenitus]

And the comparing Ilyana to Soren part is mostly because I wanted to point out that training Ilyana over Soren isn't as detrimental. Especially when she is way more durable than Soren at tier 3.

Soren is significantly less likely to be doubled (it also takes a lot less resources for Soren to double than Ilyana), plus gets staves a lot earlier (he'll be like 5-6 levels higher than Ilyana by 3-2), and has more att. And her durability lead isn't even that large. She has a little more HP/def, but Soren has more avoid.

Not really related to Ilyana vs Leo, but as a Soren fanboy I just wanted to mention this.

You can silence the mage who has it in 4-E-1 then use Sothe to steal it. It's not that hard.

Hmm, I didn't know there was a bolting there.

Do enemy mages automatically unequip their weapon if they get silenced?

[Narga_Rocks]

Um, I was against Leo. And it doesn't technically take the double bow. You can forge silver for 20 mt. Let's assume you at least have a +1 mt coin you can give it, though really you might have a fair number of better things. So 21 mt = 63 mt. Let's assume red dragons have 74 hp and 38 def. I think that is higher than what they have, but whatever. So he needs 85 mt when they are on a cover tile to kill one. That is just 22 str. Even if they have 80 hp, that is still just 25 str. If he's a marksman, he should have it and more (he gets 25 str at 20/20/1). I don't think he has any issues blicking one from 3 range. Especially with his skill and luck growths, though he'd be better with a 35 luck cap, but not many males have that. The issue is still that he needs dragonfoe.

And to the person who said Ilyana can't have triple might, try it. The reason your Jill can't is because dragonfoe is a skill. Mantle has a nihil effect. Ask yourself: What does Nihil do? Ask yourself this, is thunder's effectiveness against dragons a skill? I don't think you should need to try it yourself. Seriously, though, you have sanaki and probably at least one thunder tome. Just have her take a look.

To smash. The bolting in 4-E-1 is probably more annoying to get than tweaking 3 of Heather's levels and giving her an energy drop. If you had a gut feeling they don't unequip, I think you are right. It then has to be disarmed. Personally, I'd rather reload a couple of times at the beginning of 2-2, 2-E, and 3-2 and lose one energy drop in order to steal 3-2's. If Heather would just start with 20 str, it would be incredibly easy and everyone should do it. Plus, Heather is now less sucky for a bit because although her damage is still not great, at least she can hit double digits on many enemies and do over 20 damage after doubling.

Oh, and I know she'll stay a bit behind Soren and have a level deficit. And I say way more because her luck is eventually higher at equal levels so she stands a better chance of getting 0 crit against, and I like concrete durability when we are comparing maybe 70 hit against vs. 50 hit against, or something. The whole point is I can let 2 enemies attack her on enemy phase rather than find a position that only one enemy can attack. I mean, it isn't great, but it is something.

I will concede, though, that training Ilyana in part 1 is likely not the best of ideas. You can only raise a few people to tier 2 or almost tier 2 by 1-E, and by training Ilyana I have one less tier 2 person in part 3. I think that might be a huge negative for Ilyana, especially when Soren isn't that bad if I want a mage at endgame, I guess.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

I WOULD bring up dragonfoe and vantage for any archer makes them nigh invincible in 4-E-3, but I'mma guess it'd be bitched about that its taking it from others, namely other snipers. Thing is, no sniper would perform better than the other here with Arbalest, due to how crossbows work.

Both, however, are easier to get than it is to get Bolting.

[soundecho]

I'm pretty sure you have to disarm them while their silenced to get their bolting.

[Narga_Rocks]

I WOULD bring up dragonfoe and vantage for any archer makes them nigh invincible in 4-E-3, but I'mma guess it'd be bitched about that its taking it from others, namely other snipers. Thing is, no sniper would perform better than the other here with Arbalest, due to how crossbows work.

Both, however, are easier to get than it is to get Bolting.

It is true that arbalest is easier to get than bolting, but don't forget that a guy with dragonfoe is just helping him. Sanaki is made more helpful in this chapter (if you can get 5 points total of strength and speed and stand her next to Ena she can even double!) and any other mage you might bring, say soren or calill (doubles auras with Nasir) is also better. I'd say 3 mages blasting away makes it worth getting bolting. She is helping her fellow class members, Leo is hurting his fellow class members. I see an interesting difference there.

I don't see how they are nigh invincible with a 34%max (44% at high, 24% at low) chance of going first. It may work better on an archer than anyone else in this chapter, but still. Although that will make the arbalest and cover tiles significant.

The only bolting mage in the game that needs to be disarmed is the one in 4-E-1, the other two have other weapons they are more than happy to use when someone is in 1-2 range and no one is in 3-10.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

*facedeskfacedeskfacedesk*

Vantage is fucking percent based in this game? x.x

[Narga_Rocks]

Yeah, and it is extremely annoying that they did that. In fe 4 it was always at half health or less, in fe 5 I don't know, in fe 9 it was awesome, in this game if they wanted to nerf it they could've at least made it half health, or probability increases based on lost health, or something, but no.

[Zkirsche]

When silenced, mages can't equip their weapons, otehrwise they'd be able to counter attack. Basically, it's not that hard to steal teh bolting.

Um, I was against Leo. And it doesn't technically take the double bow. You can forge silver for 20 mt. Let's assume you at least have a +1 mt coin you can give it, though really you might have a fair number of better things. So 21 mt = 63 mt. Let's assume red dragons have 74 hp and 38 def. I think that is higher than what they have, but whatever. So he needs 85 mt when they are on a cover tile to kill one. That is just 22 str. Even if they have 80 hp, that is still just 25 str. If he's a marksman, he should have it and more (he gets 25 str at 20/20/1). I don't think he has any issues blicking one from 3 range. Especially with his skill and luck growths, though he'd be better with a 35 luck cap, but not many males have that. The issue is still that he needs dragonfoe.

Dragons have 77 HP and 36 Def, on average. in order to kill one in one hit, you'll need 113 Atk. Only teh arbalest can do this.

If you're talking about killing in one round, that's a different matter, but Ilyana can do that as well.

I will concede, though, that training Ilyana in part 1 is likely not the best of ideas. You can only raise a few people to tier 2 or almost tier 2 by 1-E, and by training Ilyana I have one less tier 2 person in part 3. I think that might be a huge negative for Ilyana, especially when Soren isn't that bad if I want a mage at endgame, I guess.

EXP hogging does not exist. Using Leo makes it harder for another dB member to reach tier 2 as well.

[Narga_Rocks]

I was talking about one rounding. The reason it matters for a sniper but not for anybody but a mage with a long range tome is that snipers don't face counters. I don't much care that Ilyana can kill any red dragon (I think even standing on wardwood depending on Ilyana's magic) with rexbolt in one round because I then have to heal her. There is a reason I think snipers might be the best for dragonfoe.

As for being silenced, isn't everything just in grey but the last thing is still equipped, I remember Laura getting silenced in 4-E-1 and I think the thing at the top of her inventory was still equipped. Same with sleeping someone. Like in 3-13 I think Ike still had equipped the bronze sword I let him hold while seizing in 3-11. They just can't use it. I don't remember for sure, though.

And I know exp hogging doesn't technically exist, but Ilyana doesn't go to part 3 with the DB. My whole point was that I have one less tier 2 unit now. If I raise Meg instead of Leo, I have x tier 2 units in part 3. If I use Leo instead of Meg, I again have x tier 2 units in part 3. If I use Ilyana instead of Leo, I have x-1 tier 2 units in part 3. It seems like a big negative. (Aside from the fact that I usually only need x-1 or maybe even x-2 units in part 3 to clear it, but that's why I raise Ilyana anyway.)

Well, in comparing Meg and Leo this is probably not quite accurate because Meg won't be tier 2 in part 3 if she is given the same number of kills and non kills as Leo took from 1-4 to 1-E to get to tier 3, but I'm sure the point is clear.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

I was talking about one rounding. The reason it matters for a sniper but not for anybody but a mage with a long range tome is that snipers don't face counters. I don't much care that Ilyana can kill any red dragon (I think even standing on wardwood depending on Ilyana's magic) with rexbolt in one round because I then have to heal her. There is a reason I think snipers might be the best for dragonfoe.

I agree with you that snipers use it best, but you normally field Shinon and even if you didn't, you can't just assume that Leo gets a resource and Ilyana doesn't as your pretty m uch stacking things in Leo's favour.

And I know exp hogging doesn't technically exist, but Ilyana doesn't go to part 3 with the DB. My whole point was that I have one less tier 2 unit now. If I raise Meg instead of Leo, I have x tier 2 units in part 3. If I use Leo instead of Meg, I again have x tier 2 units in part 3. If I use Ilyana instead of Leo, I have x-1 tier 2 units in part 3. It seems like a big negative.

(You) only need x-1 or maybe even x-2 units in part 3 to clear it

It isn't really a negative, you do fine in part 3 with ilyana beign trained up.