OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

Uhh Titania doesn’t get worse until 4-E(4) but even that can be dealt with by either having her attack thunder spirits only or giving her a blessed brave axe. What makes you think her performance diminishes as the game goes on?

Perhaps you're right about that. I still find Sothe's abilities more valuable than her's. He's easily the best combat unit for the first 3 maps you have him and continues to be one of your top players, as well as stealing and meatshielding. Titania might be the best combat unit on your team, but only might. Ike is still one-rounding more often and Gatrie is more durable, so her skills aren't nearly as necessary. Also, there's no guarantee she's getting the Brave Axe when Haar is around.

Neither of which is impressive considering his competition. Okay, 2-1 he’s a rockstar, in 2-2 the laguz dominate easily, and in 2-E you have Haar and Elincia on top of it. Then in 3-2, Brom’s durability is being compared to the likes of Haar, Ike, Gatrie, Oscar, Mordy (a few chapters later) and a couple other near invincible units, all of whom laugh at his offence.

The laguz dominate? How? You have limited Olivi Grass and Laguz stones that you want to save for 2-E anyway, and although Lethe may one-round on occasion, her laguz bar shoots down. Mordecai is an awesome wall, I won't argue that. And then Nealuchi's gauge takes 5 turns to fill up. At that point the map is nearly done. 2-E is huge, so Brom can easily find some use on the left end at the stairs while Haar walls to the right and Elincia jumps around. Later on he's overshadowed but still usable.

She’s pretty good for all of 1-3 where she can double enemies who are weighed down by steel weapons. After that her 30% spd growth rears its ugly head and you realize she’s almost as frail as Micaiah, and that thunder has incredibly lame accuracy. Though, if you do level her up, she leaves the DB just to be underlevelled again in the GMs, and one of their worst units (I’d honestly want to use Kyza > her). Availability is only a good thing if you can make good use of it. If you’re hurting the team when you’re around, then it’s better to not be around at all.

And that's why I moved her down.

Kieran’s availability doesn’t make him better. His base level is 20/11 and he needs to reach 20/20/1 by 3-11 to have enough spd to double enemy paladins, which are a slow enemy class no less. There’s no way in hell Kieran is gaining 9 levels in 2 chapters, especially with the weak exp gain in 2-3. So, more realistically, we give him say 5 levels instead, and he becomes as follows:

Kyza beats him at virtually everything (+14 hp, +1 MT, +4 spd, +3 def, -6 res, +13 hit, +7 avo) and with 26 spd he can actually double stuff Kieran couldn’t. I’d rather put up with his occasional lack of player phase attacks to have him perform that much better. So, either Kieran is terrible when he re-joins and thus negative utility, or Kyza needs to move up (not what I’m trying to prove).

When they join, perhaps. However, Kieran has had 3 chapters of being one of your best combat units where Kyza has had nothing of the sort. Besides, I hardly find being 6HKO'ed at ~50% real a bad thing.

What makes you think her bases are good?

Tanith lv 16 (steel greatlance): 35 hp, 34 MT, 21 skl, 23 spd, 22 luck, 19 def, 20 res, 134 hit, 83 avo

Her bases are actually worse than Kieran’s particularly in the durability department, and I hopefully demonstrated already that Kieran isn’t too great from 3-11 onwards.

Except she has flier utility which is great for her joining chapter and for the chapters to come, better AS and better overall growths, better endgame potential, and earth affinity.

So does Mist for most of second tier. This isn’t different from any other FE, you have to protect your healers, so I don’t see why you’d hold this against Rhys but not Laura, Mist or Micaiah.

Rhys will always have fail durability. Mist at least gains speed and luck to help her dodge and not be one-rounded (and that's before promotion), Laura gets better durability as well as being damn well necessary for her chapters and Micaiah is one-shotting a lot of enemies in part 1, as well as being able to heal later. All this > Rhys.

In the case of Muarim, the magnitude of his win in his chapters is so great it easily exceeds that of a character who’s around twice as long but is mediocre to below average during that time. I don’t feel like arguing about Volke and Stefan right now.

I disagree. Although he may be the best combat unit for one chapter, you still have great units like Sothe, Zihark, Volug, Tormod, and Vika to make things not-so-difficult. Then you get Nailah, Rafiel, and the BK later.

Nasir allowing ppl to double means he’s doubling multiple unit’s damage output while just taking up 1 spot on your roster. That’s almost as good as being a heron, despite being subdued to 2 chapters’ worth of effect. As for Gareth, blood tide helps people require 1 less attack to kill an aura (so 5HKOing -> 4HKOing or 3RKOing -> 2RKOing etc), and since you can use tides multiple times per turn due to the magic of canto and proper spacing, he’s being a lot like Nasir. I already stated what you have to do to make Gareth survive, just keep him on res tiles and have him use spirit water. It’s restrictive, hence why he’s not as useful as the other dragons, but still nonetheless extremely useful. Also, it’s pretty hard to be worse than Lyre, she has the transform issues of a cat, the attack of Mist and the def of a base level Rolf, and it’s not like she’ll grow out of it in any hurry since laguz CEXP gains are crap.

I already moved Nasir up. And I really think you're overemphasising Gareth's abilities. Why go to all that trouble when you have Ena, who can at least survive without extra treatment and be used to beat the chapter just as fast? I'll move him above Lyre, but that's as far as he goes for now.

Aran has enough MT with a forged weapon to 1HKO tigers and obviously has some massive def if you bothered to raise him. Jill with the brave axe is fine with it, and Zihark and Volug would love to have beastfoe.

You're taking that statement too seriously. I could argue Nolan wants Beastfoe the most, but it really doesn't matter.

Only with transfers maybe. Shinon wins spd and durability forever, and he never loses str by any significant amount because of the sniper+marksman str caps. Also, Shinon is one of your best attackers in the early chapters since the killer bow lets him kill stuff 65-75% of the time whereas almost no one else aside from Ike and Mia can even double yet. Thus, Shinon is prospering while Rolf is at his suckiest. And before you say it, having Rolf use the killer instead won’t help him much since he’s not in 3HKO range of anything so it’s a bit of a misuse of resources.

Shinon's much higher already anyway. <_<

[Seph]

Lehran is the best character in the game, if you don't count availability. Sure, he's not as strong as the royals, but he has amazing staff utility which is crucial in this game, and he comes with the Ashera Staff, which is awesome for Ashera.

Up a little, definitely.

[Florete]

Lehran is the best character in the game, if you don't count availability. Sure, he's not as strong as the royals, but he has amazing staff utility which is crucial in this game, and he comes with the Ashera Staff, which is awesome for Ashera.

Up a little, definitely.

By that logic, the Black Knight is the best character in the game, but that wouldn't make sense, now would it?

[Mekkah]

Lehran is the best character in the game, if you don't count availability. Sure, he's not as strong as the royals, but he has amazing staff utility which is crucial in this game, and he comes with the Ashera Staff, which is awesome for Ashera.

There's nobody who doesn't know this already, including the people who made the list. The problem with Lehran is that he _is_ unavailable for 99% of the game, and has a ridiculous recruitment requirement that makes you go out of your way huge time. Again, it's like having to brawl with Fargus just to recruit Athos, except worse.

[Vykan12]

Also, there's no guarantee she's getting the Brave Axe when Haar is around

Then use trades.

When they join, perhaps. However, Kieran has had 3 chapters of being one of your best combat units where Kyza has had nothing of the sort. Besides, I hardly find being 6HKO'ed at ~50% real a bad thing.

Correction: 2 chapters. He only shows up in 2-E when it's halfway done then has to waste another 2-3 turns to reach more than like 6 total enemies.

The laguz dominate? How? You have limited Olivi Grass and Laguz stones that you want to save for 2-E anyway, and although Lethe may one-round on occasion, her laguz bar shoots down. Mordecai is an awesome wall, I won't argue that. And then Nealuchi's gauge takes 5 turns to fill up. At that point the map is nearly done. 2-E is huge, so Brom can easily find some use on the left end at the stairs while Haar walls to the right and Elincia jumps around. Later on he's overshadowed but still usable.

Well someone has to power your offence. Heather ain't doin' it and Brom can only do so much, then you have Neph who's either sucking with her greatlance or doing pitiful damage with a javelin and having pretty piss poor durability either way, so Mordy, Lethe and Nealuchi are easily doing most of the work. I've never had a problem with the lack of gems/stones in the level so long as you trade them properly, and I don't like using laguz in 2-E since they don't have anything to gain from it aside from strike level and it's a def chapter so unless you're sending Haar to 1 round the boss with a hammer, there's no point in rushing the map.

Rhys will always have fail durability. Mist at least gains speed and luck to help her dodge and not be one-rounded (and that's before promotion), Laura gets better durability as well as being damn well necessary for her chapters and Micaiah is one-shotting a lot of enemies in part 1, as well as being able to heal later. All this > Rhys.

I don't know about Laura ever becoming durable but wtv, I thought you had Rhys in low but you actually have him in lower mid, so I won't argue about that anymore.

I disagree. Although he may be the best combat unit for one chapter, you still have great units like Sothe, Zihark, Volug, Tormod, and Vika to make things not-so-difficult. Then you get Nailah, Rafiel, and the BK later.

He can 1RKO any enemy in part 1 except Jarod, who he could 1RKO if he doubled him. He can also 1HKO a ton of enemies and never takes any damage, so he can also ferry and fight at the same time. Also, 1-E is hard even for your pre-promo,s as Zihark can get beaten up quite a bit even with supports, Volug has trouble doubling some stuff and Sothe is in the same boat as well. Tormod has durability problems and Vika has transform issues on top of her lackluster killing power and Rafiel has craptastic movement, which especially makes him hard to use with all those damn stairs and stuff. I'd say he's basically up there with Nailah and the BK on that chapter and I'd be willing to make a similar argument for 1-8 (those bandits are stupidly hard to kill).

And I really think you're overemphasising Gareth's abilities. Why go to all that trouble when you have Ena, who can at least survive without extra treatment and be used to beat the chapter just as fast?

First of all, it only provides trouble for him, he's not using up any resources aside from spirit water which are very inexpensive and come in an infinite supply. Second, you mention using Ena instead, but the best course of action is to use both of them. Remember you're allowed to deploy all but 2 units in the final chapter, and Sanaki, Sothe and Kurth make for good candidates to un-deploy.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Vykan12

[Mekkah]

(Nephenee) and having pretty piss poor availabilty either way

Did you mean durability?

[Vykan12]

There's nobody who doesn't know this already, including the people who made the list. The problem with Lehran is that he _is_ unavailable for 99% of the game, and has a ridiculous recruitment requirement that makes you go out of your way huge time. Again, it's like having to brawl with Fargus just to recruit Athos, except worse.

If you guys consider difficulty of recruitment as something that counts towards ranking, then Stefan should be bottom. You have to land on one specific square in a level of maybe 400 square units to recruit him, and only 3 characters can do it, not to mention it restricts those characters to going on that direction of the map. People like Aran would drop too, as he pops in as an unexpected reinforcement and has to be recruited by Laura, who has fail movement.

Also, if you're considering that as part of a ranking criterion, what about Ilyana's ability to cart items to the GMs, or Geoffrey being able to acquire a brave lance or lords having to land on seize squares?

Though, without even going down that path of logic, I don't think that attacking the BK is really that hard to pull off if you plan it in advance. Give the BK a bronze sword, give Ike a wind edge, give Haar celerity and savior, have him ferry his way to near the BK's location, drop Ike, have Ike attack at range, Haar rescues Ike and shoots off into the distance. Sure, it may have Haar doing all the work and Ike won't be able to recruit the hawks, but no one gives a **** about this map anyway since the enemies give craptastic experience and the goal of the map is to wait 12 turns. Even then, I'm sure Haar could take a pacifist route for the most part since a lot of the level is composed of water which hinders enemy movement.

[Vykan12]

Did you mean durability?

Yeah, whoops :S

[Florete]

There's nobody who doesn't know this already, including the people who made the list. The problem with Lehran is that he _is_ unavailable for 99% of the game, and has a ridiculous recruitment requirement that makes you go out of your way huge time. Again, it's like having to brawl with Fargus just to recruit Athos, except worse.

I don't agree with using recruitment as criteria for the list. It's how well they do when you have them.

Then use trades.

Alright.

Correction: 2 chapters. He only shows up in 2-E when it's halfway done then has to waste another 2-3 turns to reach more than like 6 total enemies.

You're right, but that's still 2 more than Kyza.

Well someone has to power your offence. Heather ain't doin' it and Brom can only do so much, then you have Neph who's either sucking with her greatlance or doing pitiful damage with a javelin and having pretty piss poor durability either way, so Mordy, Lethe and Nealuchi are easily doing most of the work. I've never had a problem with the lack of gems/stones in the level so long as you trade them properly, and I don't like using laguz in 2-E since they don't have anything to gain from it aside from strike level and it's a def chapter so unless you're sending Haar to 1 round the boss with a hammer, there's no point in rushing the map.

Where's Lucia? Oh, and Nephenee isn't that bad for this chapter, especially if she gets transfers.

I don't know about Laura ever becoming durable but wtv, I thought you had Rhys in low but you actually have him in lower mid, so I won't argue about that anymore.

Laura gets Speed. She's no tank, but more durable than Rhys. Otherwise, ^_^

He can 1RKO any enemy in part 1 except Jarod, who he could 1RKO if he doubled him. He can also 1HKO a ton of enemies and never takes any damage, so he can also ferry and fight at the same time. Also, 1-E is hard even for your pre-promo,s as Zihark can get beaten up quite a bit even with supports, Volug has trouble doubling some stuff and Sothe is in the same boat as well. Tormod has durability problems and Vika has transform issues on top of her lackluster killing power and Rafiel has craptastic movement, which especially makes him hard to use with all those damn stairs and stuff. I'd say he's basically up there with Nailah and the BK on that chapter and I'd be willing to make a similar argument for 1-8 (those bandits are stupidly hard to kill).

Well, yeah. I agreed with him being the best for a chapter and still great for the next two, but it's not like he's necessary. Although, I suppose he should be above Tormod at least. Same availability, better for his chapters.

First of all, it only provides trouble for him, he's not using up any resources aside from spirit water which are very inexpensive and come in an infinite supply. Second, you mention using Ena instead, but the best course of action is to use both of them. Remember you're allowed to deploy all but 2 units in the final chapter, and Sanaki, Sothe and Kurth make for good candidates to un-deploy.

I could argue Sothe is better but w/e, I moved Gareth up (a bit).

Though, without even going down that path of logic, I don't think that attacking the BK is really that hard to pull off if you plan it in advance. Give the BK a bronze sword, give Ike a wind edge, give Haar celerity and savior, have him ferry his way to near the BK's location, drop Ike, have Ike attack at range, Haar rescues Ike and shoots off into the distance. Sure, it may have Haar doing all the work and Ike won't be able to recruit the hawks, but no one gives a **** about this map anyway since the enemies give craptastic experience and the goal of the map is to wait 12 turns. Even then, I'm sure Haar could take a pacifist route for the most part since a lot of the level is composed of water which hinders enemy movement.

Is that possible? Can Ike be dropped so he can attack the BK on his next turn but the BK can't attack him on the enemy phase?

[Vykan12]

Well, yeah. I agreed with him being the best for a chapter and still great for the next two, but it's not like he's necessary.

Again with the word necessary. No any individual unit is necessary for anything other than chapter specific requirements (mostly seizing). Closest thing to “necessary” you have is the BK in 1-9 but it’s not impossible to have Micaiah solo the level. You just need her to have blessed spd and give her resolve, and put her on a bush for the entirety of the chapter, and if you’re on NM, you’ll be battle saving at every opportunity. The next closest thing I can think of is Ike vs the BK. The hammer is hilariously powerful against him and Ike can stand on a def tile popping elixirs all day, so you don’t have to actively use Ike at any point of the game.

I think what you mean to say is his despite his combat prowess, the absence of his presence isn't nearly as big of a blow to the team as it could be. I'm not sure that really indicates anything, as a unit doesn't have to be spectucarly better than others to be the best (or among the best).

Eg/ suppose my army is made up of 1 Tibarn and 50 Nailahs. Tibarn is only slightly better than Nailah when both are at max stats, but he's still top tier.

Is that possible? Can Ike be dropped so he can attack the BK on his next turn but the BK can't attack him on the enemy phase?

The BK only moves on turn 10 or 11 if my memory serves me right, and there’s been claims it works.

[Wisper]

EDIT: While I made this post, an entire argument had happened. My argument was pretty much covered up everyone else's above posts, so you can ignore this if you'd like.

I still feel Sephiran's bottom tier material. He's avaliable for one teensy tiny and very easy part of the game where you already should have a bunch of amazing units with you. He contributes the ashera staff, which is useful, but not enough to warrant a spot higher. And considering you're thrown a bunch of concotions and elixirs throughout this game, you don't really need a healer if you keep your units well-equipped.

So yeah, he's technically the best "beorc" unit in the game (statistically speaking.) He does do pretty well in the chapter he's in, I admit, but it's just one chapter. No matter how well you perform in one chapter, it's just ONE chapter.

I realize I'm being a broken record with Lehran's availability issues several times, but that is the reason he's in bottom. Good stats for one chapter. That's all. I might understand him deserving a higher place if the last chapter was gruelingly difficult, but it isn't. The only thing difficult about him is the ridiculous recruitment strategy you have to go through in order to get him, which is near impossible to do on hard mode.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Wisper

[Vykan12]

So you honestly think Oliver healing for 5 endgame chapters > Lehran's performance?

[Florete]

Again with the word necessary. No any individual unit is necessary for anything other than chapter specific requirements (mostly seizing). Closest thing to “necessary” you have is the BK in 1-9 but it’s not impossible to have Micaiah solo the level. You just need her to have blessed spd and give her resolve, and put her on a bush for the entirety of the chapter, and if you’re on NM, you’ll be battle saving at every opportunity. The next closest thing I can think of is Ike vs the BK. The hammer is hilariously powerful against him and Ike can stand on a def tile popping elixirs all day, so you don’t have to actively use Ike at any point of the game.

I think what you mean to say is his despite his combat prowess, the absence of his presence isn't nearly as big of a blow to the team as it could be. I'm not sure that really indicates anything, as a unit doesn't have to be spectucarly better than others to be the best (or among the best).

Eg/ suppose my army is made up of 1 Tibarn and 50 Nailahs. Tibarn is only slightly better than Nailah when both are at max stats, but he's still top tier.

I understand what you're saying, but I use the word "necessary" a bit more loosely than it may appear. Obviously, no character is totally necessary for anything except for siezing and the like (Which I don't count as an advantage). But take it like this: Sothe is better for 1-3 than Muarim is for 1-7, correct? Just a random example, but that's what I mean. When I say "necessary" I really mean "Are you almost forced to use him/her, or can his/her abilities be dropped without much consequence?" While someone like Sothe is almost necessary for a few chapters, Muarim can just not be used and it wouldn't really make the chapters much more difficult. Well, it might for 1-7, but not so much for 1-8 and 1-E.

So you honestly think Oliver healing for 5 endgame chapters > Lehran's performance?

Well, yeah, probably. Maybe not....

Edited December 22, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Seph]

By that logic, the Black Knight is the best character in the game, but that wouldn't make sense, now would it?

My logic had staff utility.

The problem with Lehran is that he _is_ unavailable for 99% of the game, and has a ridiculous recruitment requirement that makes you go out of your way huge time.

Bringing BK to 1-E and having the BK attack Ike and survive isn't hard. You have to put Ike in the BK's range at a turn before the chapter ends and then rescue him.

Yeah, alright, he is unavailable for 99% of the game, but when he comes, he's amazingly useful.

Just my personal opinion.

I am probably biased though, since Lehran is one of my favorite characters.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Julius

[_____]

So you honestly think Oliver healing for 5 endgame chapters > Lehran's performance?

Uh, yeah. Oliver healing for 5 chapters > Lehran healing for 1. :/

Edited December 22, 2008 by Harold

[Mekkah]

If you guys consider difficulty of recruitment as something that counts towards ranking, then Stefan should be bottom.

You'd go there anyway, for the Vague Katti. And Stefan has something resembling availability.

Also, if you're considering that as part of a ranking criterion, what about Ilyana's ability to cart items to the GMs, or Geoffrey being able to acquire a brave lance or lords having to land on seize squares?

I do not see how this is related to difficulty of recruitment. The way I see it:

- If you are not using a character, there is no reason to recruit them, other than for certain info conversations, items they come with, and perhaps perfectionism.

- To use a character, you are required to recruit them.

- What a character brings to the team can be put into a formula: stuff they add to the team minus stuff they are taking away from the team (be it money, flexibility, healing, etc).

- Lehran gives you healing and offense for one short chapter of three turns max length (1 and 2 turns have been done, but I think 3 is reasonable. In trade, you had to completely overturn your strategy for 3-7, probably risk death/reset since the Black Knight is hax, and Ike is also likely to get doubled.

If difficulty of recruitment is not taken into account for Lehran, then he would be like, around the same as FE7 Athos (I believe most people put him in Mid?).

But again, I didn't play this game, so if it's easy to do the Black Knight thing, then w/e. Lehran is still completely reliant on your personal opinion of availability though. I personally think that if you're unavailable for a chapter, you are Mid tier, and that your tier level should be an average of all your possible comparisons in scenarios, with more likely one having more weight. This would put Lehran slightly above average, AKA Mid.

Of course, this is a very abstract way of thinking.

[Seph]

Remember, if you didn't bring a Fortify, Lehran will make the final chapter much easier.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Julius

[Killer Poleax]

Bringing BK to 1-E and having the BK attack Ike and survive isn't hard. You have to put Ike in the BK's range at a turn before the chapter ends and then rescue him.

Getting Ike to BK is not hard. Having him survive the fight is pretty hard cause if Ike has <27 speed, he is dead. Getting Ike to 27 speed is the hard part. You gotta give him bexp or speedwings and hope he doesn't get speed screwed just so he can survive one fight to unlock Lehran.

[Don Draper]

Difficulty of recruitment shouldn't have anything to do with tier placement. Are we going to lower Ayra on the FE4 list because she's hard to recruit? Shiva from FE5 down because he's hard to recruit?

[Seph]

Getting Ike to BK is not hard. Having him survive the fight is pretty hard cause if Ike has <27 speed, he is dead. Getting Ike to 27 speed is the hard part. You gotta give him bexp or speedwings and hope he doesn't get speed screwed just so he can survive one fight to unlock Lehran.

Though, without even going down that path of logic, I don't think that attacking the BK is really that hard to pull off if you plan it in advance. Give the BK a bronze sword, give Ike a wind edge, give Haar celerity and savior, have him ferry his way to near the BK's location, drop Ike, have Ike attack at range, Haar rescues Ike and shoots off into the distance. Sure, it may have Haar doing all the work and Ike won't be able to recruit the hawks, but no one gives a **** about this map anyway since the enemies give craptastic experience and the goal of the map is to wait 12 turns. Even then, I'm sure Haar could take a pacifist route for the most part since a lot of the level is composed of water which hinders enemy movement.

[_____]

Remember, if you didn't bring a Fortify, Lehran will make the final chapter much easier.

And why wouldn't you bring Fortify?

[Seph]

And why wouldn't you bring Fortify?

There's always that chance.

[Killer Poleax]

I've never used fortify in the final mission. Actually, I've never used it at all. Never really had to. And I'm not holding Lehran's recruitment methods against him. I'm sorry if I came off that way.

[Seph]

You didn't use Fortify in hard mode?

Because it seems to me that it's impossible to not have any casualties without it.

[Killer Poleax]

I haven't played hard mode yet. When I do, I'll probably use fortify. I forgot this was about hard mode.

Edited December 23, 2008 by KSFF2150