OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

So... try arguing both < Vika?

[grandjackal]

Yeah, I felt that perhaps my thought was a bit overkill...

Still, I wouldn't find him that much more useful than her. Illyana I mean.

I mean, Nasir and Neal have immediate use, but of which help greatly during their parts. Rolf? Not so much.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

I used Ike as an example of someone who could profit from paragon because he’s both top tier and is making obvious gains with the resource. In contrast, putting something like adept, resolve or cancel on Ike is a complete waste.

Perhaps I should put this in perspective in a broader sense. Paragon acts like a gradual stat booster in every stat, and no single unit is so infallible that this won’t have a noticeable impact. If we look at just the “speedwing” benefit of this:

-Skrimir has 24 base AS. This serves him fine in 4-P, but doesn’t quite cut it in the desert (halbs/warriors/snipers have 22+ IIRC). We want to get Skrimir to gain 4 levels as quickly as possible for that extra point of speed, and paragon is getting him there almost twice as fast.

-Tauroneo has decent AS and a 50% growth in that department. Giving him paragon could help him double at some point in 4-2 instead of not at all.

-Nolan suffers from having poor base spd but a high growth (60%). Paragon helps him double tigers faster in 3-6, double things in general in 3-12 (he needs 23-24 there, which he reaches at 20/10-12ish) and helps him reach 34 sooner (he only hits that at 20/20/9-10).

The extra hp/def someone gets from paragon might allow them to take an extra hit in 4-E. The extra str might turn a borderline ORKO into a reliable one. The list goes on.

Skrimir actually has 26 speed, but your point still stands since he needs more speed to double stuff in 4-3 anyway. And I always give Jill paragon in 3-6 and Nolan paragon in 3-12 and 3-13 anyway, so I'd never ask you or anyone else to waste it on Laura in part 3. And I guess you make pretty good points about paragon.

Tibarn ORKOes everything naturally in 4-2, so putting adept on him is about as useful as putting fortune on a unit with capped luck. Conversely, paragon has considerable benefits on any unit regardless of their performance level.

Oh, I added something virtually pointless to my last post because it is funny. Tibarn has a very very small benefit from adept against the taksh guy because it further reduces the guy's chance to kill Tibarn. I just think it is funny because you were going for pointless and it technically isn't. But I get your point.

Indeed, enough about Oliver vs Pelleas. The only reason I’m continuing this paragon debate is for when it gets brought up in defence of lower tiers in the future.

Yeah, we are basically done with Oliver vs Pelleas, hopefully forever. And that is probably a good reason to continue the paragon debate. I've got nothing left, though.

There are people who could have 29 AS in 4-4 while having a spd cap of 34 or higher. Rolf and Boyd come to mind.

If we are bringing Rolf, he's a good example, yes. Boyd is a very good example because if you boost his level enough then it doesn't matter that he is slower than Nolan and we don't have to fix Boyd's str or def. On the other hand, we suffer through him not doubling in part 3 unless he gets paragon there too. Still, Boyd works too. Did I admit Boyd was a good example earlier? I don't really know. I think I did but I'm too lazy to look.

[Vykan12]

Vika 2 rounds everything but mages/priests in her part 1 chapters, and is also cutting into Muarim (and later Volug's) supply of olivi grass for what it's worth. That doesn't strike me as terribly impressive once considering the usual laguz shortcomings (lost player phases, locked to 1 range), especially when looking at the team's strength in 1-8 and 1-E. I'd say Ilyana's ranged attacking in 1-3 and 1-4 alone is more useful than that.

Rolf's a bit trickier to argue since he's comparatively worse than Ilyana in his forced chapters, but he's actually pretty decent in part 4. I might flesh out the statistics for that.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Vykan12

[Colonel M]

Thing is Vika speeds up the BEXP turncount on 1-8 due to being a bird Lagooz. 1-E she's not quite nigh invincible, but she has decent durability to speak of.

[Narga_Rocks]

Vika 2 rounds everything but mages/priests in her part 1 chapters, and is also cutting into Muarim (and later Volug's) supply of olivi grass for what it's worth. That doesn't strike me as terribly impressive once considering the usual laguz shortcomings (lost player phases, locked to 1 range), especially when looking at the team's strength in 1-8 and 1-E. I'd say Ilyana's ranged attacking in 1-3 and 1-4 alone is more useful than that.

I've actually found Vika and Micaiah are required for Sothe stealing the Meteor tome with all 5 uses in 1-E and everyone living. I've never figured out how to finish 1-E in 12 turns and steal Meteor, though. And depending on what moves and what doesn't Vika might not be required to keep Sothe alive. Even if she is required, I'm not sure if that's worth anything, just saying.

And she helps save east side civilians in 1-8. Might even be necessary for it, not sure.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[-Cynthia-]

Vika is the only unit that can actually chase down the Dracoknight on 1-8, who proceeds to run around killing NPC's and robbing you of BEXP. It's pretty important. She's forgettable on 1-7/1-E though, and just a train wreck on 4-4 and 4-E.

[Vykan12]

This 1-8 dracoknight myth needs to end. Tormod can do the same thing on turn 1 from a Vika + Muarim shove. In fact, he does it better since he ORKOes with a fire tome.

I've actually found Vika and Micaiah are required for Sothe stealing the Meteor tome with all 5 uses in 1-E and everyone living.

That's a pretty damn minor point. Where does meteor see any real application aside from 4-E? Even then, that only matters if you field an archsage in endgame.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Vykan12

[grandjackal]

Speed's not Vika's problem though, Strength is. I suppose it helps her hte only time she can be good, but BEXP doesn't help her do anything she can't already do.

Also what Vykan said. Just did it, pretty damn effective.

I'd still say Rolf should be under Nasir though.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[dondon151]

Vika saves 1 of the 3 prisoners at best, though. She 2RKOs the WK and has to spend 2 turns transforming, and the WK never goes for her on enemy phase.

Fuck, wow, I got ninja'd twice.

Edited June 30, 2009 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

I meant rescuing the other Villagers. I never said her goal was killing off the 1-8 DracoKnight or whatnot, just to clarify.

[dondon151]

She can't rescue the villagers untransformed.

[Colonel M]

She can't rescue the villagers untransformed.

I know.

She can do this transformed. Somehow it was discussed that with 1 drop of Olivi Grass + sicking her against a Brigand or something. I can't quite remember, but she can transform at least by Turn 2 and rescue someone.

There's still her performance in 1-7 and 1-E to take into account.

[charmander6000]

Because of a Raven's transformation guage she won't transform until turn 4 after 1 olivi grass also the laguz meter doesn't get a boost if Vika hits the target.

Also in 1-7 there are no olivi grass so Vika is missing about half the chapter since she's untransformed, though she could avoid dodge a bit.

Edited June 30, 2009 by charmander6000

[Colonel M]

Vika starts transformed in 1-7 anyway. As for the transformation issue in 1-8, as I've said: 1 use of Olivi Grass, get hit upon Enemy Phase, then IIRC Player Phase SHOULD land you in place of transforming. K, here's how it works.

- 15 from Olivi Grass.

- 15 from Battle.

That's 30 right there. Easy to transform.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Shadow Mir]

Vika starts transformed in 1-7 anyway. As for the transformation issue in 1-8, as I've said: 1 use of Olivi Grass, get hit upon Enemy Phase, then IIRC Player Phase SHOULD land you in place of transforming. K, here's how it works.

- 15 from Olivi Grass.

- 15 from Battle.

That's 30 right there. Easy to transform.

Other than the fact that if Vika damages the enemy, the gauge won't increase.

[Colonel M]

Other than the fact that if Vika damages the enemy, the gauge won't increase.

Are you sure? It makes no mention of that here.

I'm running of the top of my head when I played this a long time ago. If I'm off on this, I really need to play this game again.

[Dat Nick]

And that untransformation doesn't work like FE9 and that Lagooz do NOT want to be attacked while untransformed, lest they face a one round/two round.

[charmander6000]

When I said untransformed in 1-7 I meant the second half of the chapter or small portions during the entire chapter in an attempt to keep her transformed the whole time.

Also if Vika hits the target she doesn't get the bonus in 1-8, though I think one of the bandits has a hand axe. Or was that a reinforment?

[Colonel M]

Vika shouldn't be one rounded. She has 38 HP / 7 Def on top of 44 base Avoid.

One of them has a Hand Axe though:

1x Bandit lvl 16 (Hand Axe)

HP 39, Atk 23, AS 16, Hit 115, Avo 43, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 8, Ddg 11

So it still works out. BTW her AS untransformed is 15 so she isn't doubled.

[charmander6000]

But is that bandit near Vika or at different place on the map?

[Florete]

Okay, I don't even know how to respond to most of this because it's filled with false claims and strawmen, but I'll do my best.

As opposed to Astrid who does dick damage and dies from being sneezed on?

aka Lyre's not actually doing any better.

You mean everyone else on the map better than her? Yes, I did forget, she's not the only one on this map. There happen to be a fuckton of allied units, most of them fellow paladins. There are potentially a LOT of people taking care of this chapter.

Because, you know, Canto can get her behind them. That was the original point.

Statistics are a strawman? The strongest even without BEXP 3HKO herThe weakest when Astrid's fightnig unpromoted noobs pull off 3-2 rounding. Lyre's ALREADY more durable.

The original point had to do with offense, and then you completely change it to be about defense.

Not as bad as Astrid, All Lyre really needs is one BEXP level to be usable.

Lyre is not any more usable after one level of BEXP. I showed that already. I don't know why you keep saying it.

2 chapters, 1 with unpromoted enemies and the other she does jack shit, and she's not entitled to ALL of the bexp you gathered for the part 2 team up until then. How the fuck could you possibly get more for Astrid? Are you a fucking magician?

I feed her kills, something both of these units need anyway. Only it's easier to justify for Astrid since her team isn't filled with people we plan on using later, so others missing out on kills is much less of a negative.

So with BEXP...You effectively screwed her even worse. All you did was further ensure her BEXP levels go to Skill, Luck and Resistance, as now those growths are even higher percentage compared to the other growths.

Yeah, you didn't read the post at all.

Says Lyre, the person who doesn't need the playthrough of an entire other game just to not suck less than absolutely sucking.

I can make Astrid a bit better via other means. I can't do that with Lyre. What part of that are you missing? It's not like I'm assuming transfers in all my statistical comparisons, I'm mentioning them as a side note.

I'd hardly call being 3HKOd by the strongest enemy type on the map with actually existing avoid (goes from 60-30 displayed on her depending on what the enemy is and what they're using) not doing better. By the time Astrid shows up with the mercs, she is...laughable. I daresay Astrid is barely better than Fiona.

Numbers, please?

If might is Lyre's problem, I dread Astrid's problem. Lyre starts with 7 Str, which is effectively 14, 1 more than Astrid's base. She also essentially grows Str 20% faster than Astrid per level due to Laguz turning 1 point to 2.

So many things wrong. First, Astrid can increase her offense via forges and crit, Lyre can't. Astrid can shoot and move, Lyre can't. Astrid has a much higher experience gain rate, so there's no way Lyre is growing Str any faster. 35% on a Laguz =/= 70% just because she gets two on a level up.

At least Lyre can compare to someone on her team. Astrid just fucky-sucky.

What the fuck, man? It wasn't even me who mentioned it, but -8 Might is not fucking comparable, it's a shitstomp.

Speaking of sucking, 35 battles with that one BEXP level up gets her S strike, and a nice 5 padding to her attack which is 10 more power with doubling. As you can see, unlike Astrid, Lyre's offense can actually improve.

35 battles of doubling, which she doesn't always do, while she has a gauge to get in he way. Sucks to be her. I can't see her at S Strike any sooner than halfway through 4-P/1/2 unless we lose BEXP on chapters abusing all the enemies.

[Narga_Rocks]

I know the point about Meteor is minor. But 3 meteor tomes is better than 2 because you get 5 more uses before one can be blessed, and if you get bolting you aren't even blessing meteor. And if you can get the one in 3-5 (need to abuse Heather to 19 str, though) then that is even more uses. Helps a mage grow in level if you want to bring one. Plus it is fun to steal long ranged tomes.

As for Vika, she draws the dracoknight to her while untransformed and pings on enemy phase which helps raise gauge. That +15 from olivi grass + 6 from turn 2 = 30 and she can transform on turn 2. Tormod kills the dracoknight and vika goes towards the two other civilians and blocks bandits. I don't know how else we are saving the top 2 on the right. If you know a way then I'll try it sometime and see if it is simpler than Vika. Or that would work if the dumb thing had 16 def instead of 15. I remember transforming her early, but I don't know how. Still, this saves Muarim and Vika from shoving Tormod, draws the dracoknight and Tormod still kills on turn 2. Vika flies towards the civilians and munches on vulneraries while blocking the bandit. He has 1 move (I think, maybe 2, it has been a while) so it is possible to stand them all 3 in a row so the bandit always attacks Vika, and it is even easier if he just has 1 move. She eventually transforms, faster if she grasses on turn 1 (turn 4 if she never pings instead of turn 6, turn 3 if the bandit is one of the three or so bandits on the map with 16 defense, or turn 4 without the grass if he has 16 defense). Muarim faces one bandit on the bottom left near a coin, or I suppose can try to catch up with the rest of the db's going north then east then south, because going across the swamp would take more than 6 turns I'm sure. I suppose if he goes north he needs to grass on the first two turns to have any hope of catching up.

So I'm asking, how do you save the top 2 on the right without vika so I can do it that way next time?

Edited June 30, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Colonel M]

But is that bandit near Vika or at different place on the map?

I'm assuming near Vika, but I can't really read Spanish all that well, but she "appears" to be near the Bandits, which are on the West side of the map.

[charmander6000]

Well everything looks to be in order. Now the only problem is Vika's offense (Bandits have awesome growths).