OMG it's a tier list

[Zkirsche]

Either way their durability is generally the same, and Leo is a more effective unit mechanically.

not in part 3, where Leo gets ORKO'ed by the 39 Atk tigers.

[Yojinbo]

Either way their durability is generally the same, and Leo is a more effective unit mechanically.

And still he faces more enemy exposure on enemy phase as he also kills more than Eddie does. If eddie gets OHKOed by 41 Mt tigers then Leo does so as well. If it's durability that makes Eddie unviable, Leo has the same problem.

[grandjackal]

not in part 3, where Leo gets ORKO'ed by the 39 Atk tigers.

39-11=28, Leo has 29 HP...

Even considering, you think Leo won't have a support with anybody?

And still he faces more enemy exposure on enemy phase as he also kills more than Eddie does. If eddie gets OHKOed by 41 Mt tigers then Leo does so as well. If it's durability that makes Eddie unviable, Leo has the same problem.

Eddie has a hard time killing safely, this is his problem. He either runs crit chances which would expose him more, or he's using a bronze, in which he still has to eat a counter when he goes on the offensive anyways. Leo's problem is fixed with the trade command, nothing helps Eddie perform better.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Interceptor]

TBH, I think that Leo's durability on tigers is one of those things that's technically true, but can be mitigated with strategic placement. Like I've said a million times, Leo does not kill the enemy unit that is in front of him if he's using his PRF bow, so it takes swipes at him forever, blinking in and out of transformed status. The salient point here is that you just position him in front of a cat, and it guards him from tiger attacks for the whole chapter.

It requires a little bit of unnatural precognition or acrobatics, which could be construed as either ninja magic or a flexibility negative, but once you set it up, you're golden. In other news, Eddie cannot do this at all, unless you want to spend the entire chapter having him attack with a Storm/Edge and then having someone trade it away.

[Zkirsche]

39-11=28, Leo has 29 HP...

Even considering, you think Leo won't have a support with anybody?

15/1 Leo with full def support has 26 HP and 13 def. They ORKO him.

[grandjackal]

15/1 Leo with full def support has 26 HP and 13 def. They ORKO him.

What, he can't choke down one level of bexp? -_-

Besides, it's the same deal with Edward

[-Cynthia-]

What, he can't choke down one level of bexp? -_-

Besides, it's the same deal with Edward

No it isn't. 15/1 Edward has 30 HP and 10 Def, he can survive it even unsupported.

[Interceptor]

No it isn't. 15/1 Edward has 30 HP and 10 Def, he can survive it even unsupported.

What you mean to say is that he can borderline survive it. Any time that someone is 1 HP from death, you should consider the chance of them getting HP/DEF screwed. For example, Eddie has a 20% chance of having less than 30 HP at 15/1, and 43% of less than 10 DEF.

[-Cynthia-]

What you mean to say is that he can borderline survive it. Any time that someone is 1 HP from death, you should consider the chance of them getting HP/DEF screwed. For example, Eddie has a 20% chance of having less than 30 HP at 15/1, and 43% of less than 10 DEF.

If Eddie has A Leo/Aran/Jill, that's +3 Def, meaning he can survive even when RNG screwed, unless of course we were just absurdly unlucky, but that can happen to anyone.

Edited June 30, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

If Eddie has A Leo/Aran/Jill, that's +3 Def, meaning he can survive even when RNG screwed, unless of course we were just absurdly unlucky, but that can happen to anyone.

That's fair enough, since you could also drop a Draco or Robe on him if he gets screwed (or even if he doesn't). My earlier point about Leo remains, though. It's the Zihark fight all over again, except that Eddie is not as good as Zihark.

[soundecho]

Also I'd like to adress all this sandbagging of levels. The DB's aren't that low on EXP so that Leo only ends up at 15/0. Well sure if he only makes potshots, but that's not the case.

Say PEMN, but I was able to get Aran/Nolan/Jill/Leonardo all to 18~20/0 while getting Volug to S Strike and using Sothe/Micaiah/Zihark a little bit and using all my BEXP on Laura at the same time.

Should I have dropped Jill and not BEXPed, I no doubt would've had all of them at 20/1 or 19/1 by using the seals available to me. Although I was trying to spread as much EXP as possible to my team (using Micaiah to weaken armors instead of killing them, have Sothe keep using a bronze knife etc.) I think 15/1 for Leonardo is absurd for part 3.

Edited June 30, 2009 by soundecho

[dondon151]

Say PEMN, but I was able to get Aran/Nolan/Jill/Leonardo all to 18~20/0 while getting Volug to S Strike and using Sothe/Micaiah/Zihark a little bit and using all my BEXP on Laura at the same time.

I only got Nolan and Jill to 18/0 while Leo was 14/0 (and Aran was unused). When the disparity between these examples is something like 2000 EXP, something's wrong. Vykan's PE seems to be more consistent with what I discovered as well.

The DB's situation is "you've got 10 or less maps to get from tier 1 to tier 2." You can't even get units to promotion in 10 maps in other FE games without favoritism. Granted there are differences, but factoring the -5 EXP cut, the outlook is bleak for the DB.

Also, if I am seriously using Micaiah for crit-killing, it's with Shine or a forged Light. Thani is nice in a pinch, but has no innate crit on it. That gives her either +10 or +15 crit on top of her base plus her Bond.

OK, but Eddie can get a +10 or +15 crit forge that hits twice, so that's helping Eddie more than it's helping Micaiah. Instead of 55% x2 against 60%, it's 70% x2 against 75%.

I'm sorry, but Micaiah only needs to lose 70% of her very poor HP to get into Wrath range. That's one hit on almost anyone.

I'm going to take a random 24 atk Steel Lance soldier from 1-6-2 and sic him on Sothe. Unless Micaiah has 16 HP by 1-6-2, a Sacrifice doesn't put her in Wrath range. There's quite a few instances where I can justify that Micaiah won't always be in Wrath range by turn 2, but I don't think this one turn is really that important to warrant a bunch of quibbling.

I'm also not sure that sandbagging Eddie's levels is a valid argument to give him Wrath over Micaiah. That smells to me of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I don't see how it's not valid if it gives Eddie a form of better offense that highlights his earlygame utility, since we know his utility elsewhere blows.

I mean, it's easier to sandbag a unit than to justify EXP and resources.

Well, a unit's "wants" are secondary to the army's. Even if Micaiah killing something is appoximately as helpful in the long-term as Volug taking a kill, the point is that a dead enemy unit is a dead enemy unit. If Micaiah is using Wrath better than Eddie for clearing the game, that's a gold star in her column.

Micaiah can't Wrath and Sacrifice simultaneously. Eddie + Micaiah can Wrath and Sacrifice simultaneously, and this is one of the times in the game it doesn't require much illustrating to show that 2 > 1. If you split the tasks, you double the utility, and it's not like unit slots are much contested for in the DB.

I don't agree. Eddie is still "viable" without Wrath, the skill does not make him epic or anything.

I never said it makes him epic. Consider that Eddie 2RKOs enemies (sometimes even 4HKO) and generally still has to eat a counter even from an already weakened enemy. Without Wrath, Eddie has a hard time finding opportunities to safely kill things.

Edited June 30, 2009 by dondon151

[soundecho]

You've seriously got spread you exp around alot and be stingy with it. e.g No kills for Micaiah/Volug/Sothe unless necessary. I highly doubt that you can't get most DB's to 20/1 if you low man and spread your exp around properly.

This may mean you go over some BEXP limits, but you gain more in the long run.

Edited June 30, 2009 by soundecho

[Interceptor]

Before I forgot, in regard to the Vika thing from some pages ago in 1-8, gaining gauge by hitting for a gooseegg or missing: someone mentioned that a Bandit would need to get 16 DEF. That someone is wrong. It's criminally easy to merely park Vika next to a Reed, and the Bandit will helpfully stand in it on Enemy Phase when he attacks her. This allows a strategy where a 15DEF Bandit can still take zero damage in reply from her.

This is why PE is sometimes important.

[Narga_Rocks]

Before I forgot, in regard to the Vika thing from some pages ago in 1-8, gaining gauge by hitting for a gooseegg or missing: someone mentioned that a Bandit would need to get 16 DEF. That someone is wrong. It's criminally easy to merely park Vika next to a Reed, and the Bandit will helpfully stand in it on Enemy Phase when he attacks her. This allows a strategy where a 15DEF Bandit can still take zero damage in reply from her.

This is why PE is sometimes important.

Doh! Forgot about that possibility. Still, though, can you position Vika like this and still save all 6 civilians? It's been a while since I did that chapter and the pictures on serenes forest aren't good enough for me to be able to tell. If I play again I'll have to look into that. I guess I could look at vykan's videos on youtube and might be able to see enough, but since I'm sure speedrunning did not consist of saving all the civilians I'm not sure I could figure out the answer to my question by just looking at the start of the map. It only really matters though if she isn't allowed to grass on turn 1 anyway, I think.

I don't even remember what people were trying to do to Vika's position in the list anyway, and since it hasn't been mentioned in a while it can probably just be ignored for now.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Doesn't flying negate all terrain bonuses? As in you could be on any terrain, you wouldn't get the bonuses?

[Interceptor]

Doh! Forgot about that possibility. Still, though, can you position Vika like this and still save all 6 civilians? It's been a while since I did that chapter and the pictures on serenes forest aren't good enough for me to be able to tell. If I play again I'll have to look into that. I guess I could look at vykan's videos on youtube and might be able to see enough, but since I'm sure speedrunning did not consist of saving all the civilians I'm not sure I could figure out the answer to my question by just looking at the start of the map. It only really matters though if she isn't allowed to grass on turn 1 anyway, I think.

It's possible, I suppose. I generally take a pretty cold-hearted approach in this chapter and just have Nailah rescue one guaranteed, and don't fuss over max BEXP. The reed trick does work, though, and Vika winds up fairly close to her starting point anyway.

I don't know if anyone mentioned it, but she does not need to deal with the Draco that starts on the map, since you can shove Tormod into the swamp and blick that thing on Enemy Phase.

[Narga_Rocks]

Doesn't flying negate all terrain bonuses? As in you could be on any terrain, you wouldn't get the bonuses?

It's the bandit that matters. Vika's defense is irrelevant. If a 15 def bandit is on the reed and attacks vika, he takes no damage in return, thus giving Vika gauge. I'm now just wondering if we can do that to accelerate her transformation and still save all 6 civilians (well, the three on the left are so easy a ... could do it, but the top two on the right I think take vika). She can do it without transforming, she just won't kill anything so she doesn't help rout the map and someone else has to take a turn to kill the bandit.

It's possible, I suppose. I generally take a pretty cold-hearted approach in this chapter and just have Nailah rescue one guaranteed, and don't fuss over max BEXP. The reed trick does work, though, and Vika winds up fairly close to her starting point anyway.

Guess I'm just a bleeding heart then, cause I like saving them all. I was ticked in 1-6-2 when a stupid paladin decided to attack a myrmidon and got critkilled. I didn't restart or anything, but it was annoying that I lost one. It's not like I care too much about max bexp. I try and all, but if I'm off by a turn or two I don't restart.

I don't know if anyone mentioned it, but she does not need to deal with the Draco that starts on the map, since you can shove Tormod into the swamp and blick that thing on Enemy Phase.

One person did mention shoving tormod, they said it takes two shoves but I never bothered to check. Either way I'd rather not give up vika and muarim's turn and so I simply let tormod take it out on player phase 2.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Shadow Mir]

Doesn't flying negate all terrain bonuses? As in you could be on any terrain, you wouldn't get the bonuses?

Yes, it does. But fliers still gain the benefits of Cover and Wardwood in 4-E.

[grandjackal]

It's the bandit that matters. Vika's defense is irrelevant. If a 15 def bandit is on the reed and attacks vika, he takes no damage in return, thus giving Vika gauge. I'm now just wondering if we can do that to accelerate her transformation and still save all 6 civilians (well, the three on the left are so easy a ... could do it, but the top two on the right I think take vika). She can do it without transforming, she just won't kill anything so she doesn't help rout the map and someone else has to take a turn to kill the bandit.

Oh wait, the bandit! Yeah, had that backwards. Sometimes my brain just does that, my bad.

[Interceptor]

One person did mention shoving tormod, they said it takes two shoves but I never bothered to check. Either way I'd rather not give up vika and muarim's turn and so I simply let tormod take it out on player phase 2.

Doesn't happen that way. Vika pops a grass and moves next to the reeds, and then Tormod dips his toes in the water and gets blasted further by by Maurim (or the other way around). Either way, the Draco attacks Tormod on Enemy Phase. Vika is all set on Turn 2, so Maurim can start grassing up and he'll be full gauge by the end of Turn 3.

[Progenitus]

huh

If Eddie sees one round of combat, he's not dying. Both of them see one round of combat per turn, maximum. Eddie requires a vulnerary or a heal. Eddie won't attack on player phase and Micaiah won't attack on enemy phase. Keeping people alive has literally nothing to do with it.

Are you not understanding something or what because this seems pretty elementary to me.

Apparently you don't understand how Micaiah has 2-range and thus can actually do something on player phase far more often than Edward because she's a lot less likely to be exposed on the upcoming enemy phase.

Have you even played a fucking fire emblem game? Who do you think is easier to protect; a guy that gets OHKO'd but uses 1-range, or a guy that gets OHKO'd but uses 2-range? Hint: the farther you are from the enemies, the easier you are to protect.

Just to let you know, by saying that Edward is just as easy to keep alive as Micaiah when both are in OHKO range despite the fact that Edward has to 1-range if he wants to OHKO anything making him significantly harder to keep alive on enemy phase (his offense with wind edges blow. Like, 4-5HKO and only borderline doubling), you are basically saying durability doesn't matter. "let's just ignore how Edward is getting in our way far more often than Micaiah will when they want to try and do something"

And you STILL haven't told us how Edward is going to be able to attack anything at all when he has only like a 55-60% chance to crit, which means if he doesn't crit the enemy just pwns him in the face and he dies. At least if Micaiah doesn't crit we don't have to restart the chapter because she didn't die on us.

Generally Micaiah doesn't heal people on turn 1, because it's used for positioning for enemy phase. If Micaiah heals on turn 1, that's also putting her in significant danger. That's 2 turns minimum. If she doesn't heal enough, that's 3 turns.

There's very few instances where units are taking damage on player phase turn 1.

- There are few enemies in range and can be dispatched by ranged unit + melee unit, meaning no counter. This is like 1-4, 1-5, 1-7, 1-E.

- Micaiah can't reach player units if they attack on turn 1. IIRC 1-6 (both maps) are like this.

Alright.

So, you're suggesting that Edward CAN enter wrath mode on turn 1? If you are, you're pulling a double standard (there's no way Edward would be able to attack something and enter wrath mode if Micaiah isn't able to sacrifice someone because they couldn't attack something and lose HP), and if you are not, this was a pointless subject to bring up because neither would have wrath up by turn 1 anyway.

Micaiah giving other units HP lets them see more combat. Compare letting other units see more combat to Micaiah's 50-60% chance of OHKOing something. Depending on the unit, Sacrifice contributes a lot more than one Wrath attack.

I'd rather throw wrath on Micaiah so she can either sacrifice OR wrath abuse, rather than being forced to just stick with sacrifice. considering, you know, Micaiah with wrath can actually attack SOMETHING without dying, unlike Edward.

btw, wtf @ all the deflated levels everyone is using. 14/1 for 3-6? What the hell? Are we using 10 guys or something?

and wtf @ complaining leo gets OHKO'd by tigers. Are you stupid enough to throw him on the frontlines when we have so many chokepoints to abuse and other frontliners on the team? We have everyone else on the team able to tank in place of him. Leo isn't trying to solo the map, guys. wtf is the rest of the team doing if he's tanking hits, scratching their nuts?

I would much rather have a team of Nolan/Volug/whatever/Leo than Nolan/Volug/whatever/Edward, since I still have enough frontliners to plug up my chokepoints but Leo can actually do stuff on player phase, while Edward either has to use wind edges which has lol6 mt or storm swords which has lol50 hit, or has to 1-range in place of a superior frontliner and waste tons of time healing himself or Laura's time healing him because he gets 2HKO'd at ridiculous hit rates and his offense isn't good enough to justify this.

[Narga_Rocks]

Smash, I don't think you quite get precisely what dondon is saying. I still disagree with him and agree Micaiah is better with wrath, but I'll spell out what I get from what he's saying anyway.

Eddie wonders up to an enemy on player phase without attacking, or stands in a chokepoint or something. Then the enemy attacks Eddie on enemy phase. Eddie gets hit because his avo sucks and if this is one of the 50% of enemies that edward doubles then Ed gets two shots at critting, otherwise he just gets one shot. Edward then heals on Player phase because attacking would be stupid when he can die on the counter and tries the same thing again on enemy phase.

The problem here is not Edward dying if he doesn't pull off the crit. The problem is that I have no clue which map he is on in part 1 where Edward is guaranteed to not face a second enemy on the same enemy phase (ie: before he can heal) after killing off the first one. Or at the very least how to do this without slowing us down considerably.

This is why I agree with you that using Micaiah for this is better, and for this reason:

Since she is doing this on player phase we can make certain she doesn't get attacked by anything on enemy phase, thus unlike edward she doesn't worry about getting attacked by two guys (or even 1), and she doesn't have to heal every player phase just to keep doing this (though this is arguably a minor expense since edward isn't taking up Laura's turn since he is just taking a vulnerary).

@Int: Like I said, I haven't looked at that chapter myself since I last played it (weeks ago) and simply let other people tell me how stuff works. I know I shouldn't, but it just seemed so much simpler. I should probably know better than to listen to just anyone, though. If I play it again and remember, I'll try to see if I can save all 6 and let both Vika and Muarim grass. I think I might be able to do it.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

Thanks for the clarification.

btw, what's with all this vika and bandit talk about? I wasn't bothering to follow it and I don't want to reread the last 50 posts or however long it's been going on. Who is Vika being argued against?

[Narga_Rocks]

I understand not wanting to go back 50 posts or more, can't blame you for that considering I don't want to.

Suffice it to say that someone wanted vika to go down, don't remember who or by how much s/he wanted Vika to go down, and Int was correcting me on an oversight I had made, followed by helping me think about a tactic that might work better than what I've been doing. I think that the person who wanted to bring vika down has since either dropped the idea or not bothered to post about it again.

The idea was that vika wasn't very useful in her chapters and the helping to save all 6 civilians in 1-8 thing was something that I was suggesting in her favour so that it wouldn't be ignored while considering whether or not she needed to go down.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Narga_Rocks